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A powerful image I first saw here (imgur.com)
submitted 1 day ago by teusz16
[–]Dashtego 42 points43 points44 points 1 day ago
Damn but this is reductionist. Don't get me wrong, I have as many issues with organized religion as the next guy, but I think we can hold American neo-imperialistic foreign policies at least partly to blame for 9/11, no? Yes, religious extremist were upset with America's presence in the Middle East in part for religious reasons and that played a crucial role in their desire to attack America. But there were social, political, economic, and military reasons as well. Religion was a motivator for the attacks, but suggesting it was solely to blame takes responsibility away from a backwards, aggressive, and imperialistic approach to foreign policy that also was hugely important in antagonizing America in the eyes of our attackers.
[–]fcman 11 points12 points13 points 1 day ago
A logical fallacy on r/atheism??? How can this be?
[–]Myuriko 3 points4 points5 points 1 day ago
Yes, this. We weren't attacked on 9/11 just because "damn those Islams is sooo crazay!" ugh. We were attacked on 9/11 because we provoked that animosity through our interventionist foreign policy decisions. Osama Bin Laden wanted Americans to wonder "Why do they hate us so much, that they would DO something like this?!" And then find out for themselves, what their own country has been doing in other parts of the world. He underestimated American ignorance, and he underestimated the propaganda misinformation that is spread so thoroughly on television. Now lots of Americans think that we were attacked because those crazy Muslims just hate freedom soo damn much. Not a second of critical thinking and self-evaluation.
[–]QuaereVerumm 4 points5 points6 points 1 day ago
Exactly--yes, religion had something to do with it, but to say that it wouldn't have happened without religion is most likely not correct. They would have just found another reason instead of religion--or they would have just thought their reasons without religion was good enough.
[–]Fzero21 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
It wasn't religion that caused us to do even worse to there country.
[–]MarvinLazer -1 points0 points1 point 1 day ago
Damn right! Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a totally secular world, but it's absurd to say that 9/11 happened purely because of muslims who wanted their 72 virgins and hate our freedom. That's the same kind of crap being spouted by the christian right in this country and as rationalists we should be better than that.
[–]brightman95 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
Like the crusades and the inquisition, up top in the hierarchy, yes it was far more complicated than god told me too. But, I highly doubt that people would suicide bomb themselves if they did not believe in an afterlife, or were entirely insane.
[–]kissfan7 -5 points-4 points-3 points 1 day ago*
Yes, religious extremist were upset with America's presence in the Middle East in part for religious reasons and that played a crucial role in their desire to attack America. But there were social, political, economic, and military reasons as well.
Such as?
Religion was a motivator for the attacks, but suggesting it was solely to blame takes responsibility away from a backwards, aggressive, and imperialistic approach to foreign policy that also was hugely important in antagonizing America in the eyes of our attackers.
Saudi Arabia invited us to stay in their country to protect it from Saddam Hussein. Coming to a place after being invited is not "backwards" and it certainly isn't "aggressive" or "imperialistic".
Mere military presence in an area is not enough to cause people to want to blow up civilians. If it were, Germans or South Koreans would've knocked the towers down.
Al Qaeda and their Salafist allies hate the United States because they see us as the major obstacle to a caliphate. They also hate many other groups they see as obstacles to this goal, such as Jews and Shia. Indeed, most of those killed by al Qaeda have been Muslims.
Do the Shia pilgrims killed by al Qaeda have a "backwards, aggressive, and imperialistic approach to foreign policy"? What about the Yazidi's "neo-imperialistic foreign policies"?
[–]twoclose 26 points27 points28 points 1 day ago
[fixed]
[–]arahman81 6 points7 points8 points 1 day ago
And nature will fuck you up much harder than any people can. And doesn't care what you believe (or don't).
[–]themightyscott -3 points-2 points-1 points 1 day ago
That sort of thing is called an "Act of God".
Just saying.
[–]arahman81 1 point2 points3 points 1 day ago
Wouldn't that imply Nature/Earth=God?
[–]themightyscott -2 points-1 points0 points 1 day ago
Now we are into the realm of metaphysics/theology.
[–]cambiro -1 points0 points1 point 1 day ago
Oh yeah? Tell me one present natural event that killed more than 70 million people (aproximated number killed in Mao-Tse Tung's China)
[–]CrispyPudding 2 points3 points4 points 21 hours ago*
starvation.
edit: i know this is not an event but it kills a lot of people every day and imo it is worse then mao because people die without any cause or reason. they don't die because they oppose something or because somebody wants to achieve a better world. they just can't afford food, the transportation of food into their area, the security messures to not get mugged or propper storing conditions.
[–]kissfan7 -2 points-1 points0 points 1 day ago
So we shouldn't challenge belief systems that cause harm because other things also cause harm?
That's like saying, "No need to try to prevent drunk driving. Texting while driving also kills people, so it doesn't matter if you get hammered before you get behind the wheel."
Humanity is pretty good at chewing gum and walking at the same time. We can tackle more than one problem.
[–]arahman81 4 points5 points6 points 1 day ago
I didn't say anything like that.
[–]kissfan7 -1 points0 points1 point 1 day ago
What were you trying to say, because it sounds like a total non sequitur?
[–]kissfan7 1 point2 points3 points 1 day ago
So the hijackers would have been militia members if they weren't Muslim?
Imagine if someone said, "If fascism never existed, people would still kill other people". While true, it's a bit beside the point.
[–]deja-vu-comment 23 points24 points25 points 1 day ago
It bugs me that it isn't "Religioff"
.
[–]teusz16[S] 3 points4 points5 points 1 day ago
Damn, that does kinda ruin it...
[–]mackenga 2 points3 points4 points 1 day ago
Clicked comments to make sure some upstanding citizen had pointed this out. What the hell is a Relig Ion anyway? I'm going to have a twitch for the rest of the day now.
[–]kstetsko21 11 points12 points13 points 1 day ago
Well obviously it's a Relig with a charge.
[–]great_gape -4 points-3 points-2 points 1 day ago
What bugs me is 0p was 8 years old when this happened
[–]teusz16[S] 8 points9 points10 points 1 day ago
Lol I was 10, actually. But I remember that day, and it's no less significant for me.
[–]eeviltwin 1 point2 points3 points 1 day ago
It actually probably IS a little less significant to younger folks, if we're being entirely honest. Unless you knew someone directly involved in the incident, it probably didn't affect you as much as someone who was an adult at the time.
[–]teusz16[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
Except younger folks were more "innocent" when they heard this shocking news, whereas older folks were already cynical enough to make sense of it.
[–]Indosay 1 point2 points3 points 1 day ago
Nah, try being a bit older. I was only 15 and it was still crazy. 2.5 years from being draft age, talking about implimenting that draft, old enough to be scared of everything for a bit. Wondering if I'd still be able to drive and shit. I couldn't imagine being my age now and dealing with it. I would have been many times more afraid and worried about everything.
Hmm, didn't consider the draft. Touche.
[–]PSNDonutDude 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
I was 5, and I'm Canadian. I still remember that day. My fathers face and hearing but not knowing why everyone was sad.
[–]warxx -7 points-6 points-5 points 1 day ago
I came here to say this. Have an upvote
[–]Violange 9 points10 points11 points 1 day ago
I don't think we would have avoided 9/11 or a similar terrorist attack if there wasn't religion. What about the Japanese Kamikaze? They weren't powerfully religious. They were doing what they did from a powerful sense of duty. Posts like this make the assumption that without religion, people wouldn't do horrible shit, and unfortunately that is wrong.
A world without religion would still have nationalism, racism, sexism and homosexualism (homophobia is a bullshit phobia). We would still have the rich exploiting the poor, and conflicts of interest leading to conflicts of arms.
[–]teusz16[S] -10 points-9 points-8 points 1 day ago
This is true. But radical religion definitely played a part. And regarding your kamikaze example: the Japanese viewed their emperor as a deity of sorts. That's why as part of the terms of surrender they had to agree to stop worshipping him, and why the sun rays disappeared from the Japanese flag (the represented the sun god).
[–]simpleunicorn9 4 points5 points6 points 1 day ago
It was more political than religious
[–]Violange 1 point2 points3 points 17 hours ago
Good point, I used the wrong example. I don't think radical religion played as big of a part as you think. A huge factor for suicide bombers is that their families will receive money once they die. Soldiers everywhere die in the name of their countries. Men jump on grenades. Plenty of people die in their attempts to do what is they consider right regardless of creed.
A world without religion would still have nationalism, racism, sexism and homosexualism[...]
Brief aside, the word "homosexualism" is already used by anti-gay ideologues to refer to anyone - gay, straight, or other - who supports equality. The accepted term is "homophobia". While phobia is a medical term, it is routine in English for medical terms to take on other meanings. See, for example, "lame" or "dumb". "Xenophobia" is not a medical condition, but it, like "homophobia", is an accepted term in English.
/off topic
I don't quite get your reasoning. It seems to boil down to, "Sure thing A harms people. But thing B, C, D, E, and F also harm people, so we shouldn't worry about A because people are going to be harmed by other things too."
Imagine if a cop didn't arrest someone for vandalism and just said, "Well, if he wasn't doing that he would be committing some other crime. Might as well let it go."
[–]Violange 0 points1 point2 points 17 hours ago
I hope that we can get homophobia out of the lexicon and replace it with a better word, since it really means hate and prejiduce towards gays not fear of gays. I will not misuse homosexualism again.
As for my reasoning, this image implies that the WTC would not have been destroyed without religion and the zealotry that religion entails. I was attempting to assert that it is very likely 9/11 would have occurred even if the hijackers were atheist due to a variety of other motivating factors, one such example being the hundreds of thousands of Arabs who have died at the hands of the United States.
[–]kissfan7 0 points1 point2 points 4 hours ago
Al Qaeda hates the United States because it sees us as it's main obstacle to its goal of recreating the caliphate. If religion didn't exist, then Islam wouldn't exist. If Islam didn't exist, then the caliphate wouldn't exist. If the caliphate didn't exist, then al Qaeda would have nothing to recreate. If al Qaeda didn't exist, three thousand people who died eleven years ago and the thousands more who al Qaeda killed would be alive.
Al Qaeda never cared about any dead Arabs. First, many of their members aren't Arabs. Second, al Qaeda and their allies have no qualms about killing Arabs who happen to be Christian, secular, gay, cops, soldiers, government workers, Shia, Sufi, unruly women, or simply in the way.
[–]m0thie 6 points7 points8 points 1 day ago
That post was originally mine, but I deleted it. I realized that more politics than religion were ever involved in the whole 9/11, and that posts like this one eventually make us all look bad if they reach the front page. "Hey, look, folks at /r/atheism fully blame it on islam for the incident, being oblivious to the U.S government relation and acting like bigots!"
And the "religioff" comment was even the first one then, lol.
What government relation?
[–]m0thie 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
I'm not willing to discuss in-depth politics, and I probably know almost nothing about what motivated 9/11 as little as any average american citizen. But I've been led to believe not only religious factors were decisive, and I won't pretend so...oh, well.
There's nothing wrong with not knowing about something. I don't know lots of things. But what's obnoxious is calling hundreds of people "oblivious" because they don't know some unspecified "U.S. government relation" to the massacre that you yourself don't know.
What's even worse is projecting that ignorance onto the "average [A]merican citizen".
If you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk about it. You're talking about the murder of three thousand people, including people I cared about. This is not a topic to shoot your mouth (or, rather, keyboard) off about.
[–]Tlingit_Raven 2 points3 points4 points 1 day ago
Simple-minded image made for simple-minded people. Makes sense it seemed powerful to you,
[–]Lothens 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
ENOUGH OF THIS. The attacks 11 years ago were because of our foreign policy that builds military bases in other countries who don't want us there in the first place.
[–]Amryxx 2 points3 points4 points 1 day ago
Why yes, let's simplify an exceedingly complex issue into a convenient, and not-necessarily-correct image macro. Surely this is a rational and scientific avenue of thinking.
[–]PhoQ 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
They don’t attack us because we’re free and prosperous--but because we invade their countries, because we have bases in their country.
[–]WhiteRastaJ 6 points7 points8 points 1 day ago
This makes little sense. The 9/11 terrorists attacked over social, economic and political reasons, not religious ones.
Religion was only used as a motivator. And lest you think this itself is reason enough to condemn religion, look to America, where you can talk people into killing or dying for flag or country.
The 9/11 terrorists attacked over social, economic and political reasons[...]
[–]WhiteRastaJ 1 point2 points3 points 21 hours ago
Social - Bin Laden and the Salafists openly decried what they saw as the watering down of Arab culture and society through American imports, such as McDonalds and so forth. Additionally they felt--and feel--that American and Western culture is diluting essential Arab cultural values and mores.
Economic - American intervention in the Middle East is based around oil and little else. The spice must flow. Millions die over the West's need to control the source of a vital resource. Add to this the massive aid packages Israel recieves from the USA (and make no mistake, Israel is a major destablizing influence in the region) and you can see why US money is an issue in the Middle East.
Political - beyond the Israel / Palestine debacle, many Saudis resent an American military presence in Saudi Arabia. They see this as neo-colonialism, an extension of American control over their country.
(Note--all the above are in brief and very simple...at work without much chance to write more).
Add the three together and you see the Salafi POV--that America and her allies have extended their influence and control over the Middle East by subverting cultural, economic and political systems and pushing for a more 'American' way of doing things.
[–]kissfan7 0 points1 point2 points 20 hours ago
Bin Laden and the Salafists openly decried what they saw as the watering down of Arab culture[...]
The Salafists are not nationalists. They care about Islam, not about Arab culture. There are al Qaeda operatives of many different ethnicities. Afghans fighting for bin Laden only care about the disillusion of the culture of, say, Morocco insofar as Islam is part that culture.
[...] American imports, such as McDonalds and so forth.
When did bin Laden or anyone in al Qaeda say they did it because they hate McDonald's?
American intervention in the Middle East is based around oil and little else.
I asked what motivated al Qaeda, not what motivated American policy.
Add to this the massive aid packages Israel recieves [sic] from the USA[...]
I'm slightly off topic, but if we only care about oil, why do we help Israel?
It makes little sense to claim Qaeda's motivations are non-political and then bring up a nation that they only hate because it is Jewish.
[M]any Saudis resent an American military presence in Saudi Arabia.
Many Germans and South Koreans also dislike American bases in their neighborhoods, but they didn't fly planes into buildings.
The massacre of 9/11 was not motivated merely by the fact that there are foreign troops in Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden was upset by the "permanent presence of infidels in Arabia". Bergen, Peter L. (2001). Holy War Inc.. Simon & Schuster. p. 3. Not the permanent presence of foreigners, but the presence of kuffar. This was based on Muhammad's declaration, "Let there be no two religions in Arabia". Sahih Muslim, Book, Number 194366 and Malik's Muwatta, Book 45, Number 45.5.18.
Bin Laden offered to protect the nation with a force that would have also included non-Saudi Arabians. Many of the hijackers were Egyptians, not just Saudi Arabians. If the Kingdom invited other Muslims instead of Westerners it would not be a problem.
[T]he Salafi POV [is] that America and her allies have extended their influence and control over the Middle East by subverting cultural, economic and political systems[...]
And they see Islam as their cultural, economic, and political system.
[–]WhiteRastaJ 0 points1 point2 points 19 hours ago
Salafist =/= Al Qaeda. And yes, Arab culture has been spoken of (not the wider Islamic culture). Arab news sources have reported on this widely over the last 15 years.
I didn't say they did. McDonalds was an example of Western culture making inroads into the Middle East--inroads that are not welcomed by all Muslims or Arabs.
Well, it would seem obvious to me that American foreign policy influences American actions in the ME, which influenced those who attacked on 9/11. Getting American oil interests out of the Middle East was one of Bin Laden's stated goals.
'We' don't. America does. They support Israel because a) American Christian evangelicals are a potent voting block and they have religious reasons for supporting Israel. Hence, votes; b) AIPAC and other organized, pro-Israel lobbies support Israel. Hence, votes; c) Israel serves as a vital US ally in the Middle East, both as a political entity and as a pro-Western democracy.
When did I say their motivations were non-political? I said they were non-religious (as the term is commonly used in the West). I cited political, social and economic reasons. And Israel is not hated because it is a Jewish state. Anti-semitic sentiment in the Middle East is a result of Israel's existence, not the other way around. Israel is hated because it is seen by many as a foreign, unwelcome interloper in Arab lands that was founded unilaterally and using the same tactics that, when undertaken by Arabs, are called terrorism.
Well, America isn't currently bombing the shit out of Germany and her neighbours, nor South Korea and her neighbours. Nor do American fear-mongers and pundits spend hour after hour trash-talking Buddhism or Lutheranism (for example).
The massacre of 9/11 was not motivated merely by the fact that there are foreign troops in Saudi Arabia.
Didn't say it was. I said that was one of the reasons.
Many of the hijackers were Egyptians, not just Saudi Arabians
Mohammed Atta was Egyptian. All the rest were Saudis with the exception of one Lebanese and a few from the UAE. I would hardly say that one Egyptian = many.
And they gain little public support by trumpeting that fact. Instead the wider appeal is to historical injustices and modern neo-imperialism and neo-colonialism in the form of political, economic and social changes and upheavals. Salafis know bloody well that they are hardliners, and they also know that the majority of Muslims are not. And the majority of moderate and liberal Muslims have no desire to live under a hardline Islamic state.
[–]WhiteRastaJ 0 points1 point2 points 18 hours ago
PS--regarding your quoting of ahadith:
One religion in Arabia? Well, the Qur'an makes it clear that "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit." (29:46)
Under Muhammad's tenure as ruler in Yathrib, the Constitution of Medina (which included the Jewish tribes of Banu Qurayza, Banu Qunayqah and Banu Nadir) allowed for each group to follow their own faith. This demonstrates that Muhammad was not aiming at banishing all other religions from Arabia--there was a place for the ahl-al-kitaab. And the Qur'an trumps ahadith. Monotheism, as opposed to polytheism, was the real object of Muhammad's statement concerning one religion.
Also, Bergen's use of the term 'infidel'...well, it's a poorly chosen English rendering of kuffar. Kuffar derives from the Arabic triliteral كفر which includes the idea of willful concealment, of hiding something. His phrase would be better written, "the permanent presence of decievers in Arabia", which carries a different meaning than 'infidel'.
[–]kissfan7 0 points1 point2 points 5 hours ago*
Salafist =/= Al Qaeda.
What!? Of course al Qaeda is Salafist. Sayyid Qutb was heavily influenced by the movement, especially by Rashid Rida.
And yes, Arab culture has been spoken of (not the wider Islamic culture).
Where and to what extent? After all, Nazi propaganda talked about, to take something at random, the movie M. Yet few would say the Holocaust was motivated by Hitler's belief that Fritz Lang is overrated.
When did bin Laden or anyone in al Qaeda say they did it because they hate McDonald's? I didn't say they did.
I didn't say they did.
I'm sorry for the misinterpretation, but your writing indicated that it was one of the products they complained about. Which brands DID they complain about?
There are, of course, some extremist groups that attack corporations like McDonald's for watering down the local culture. Breton nationalists spring to mind off the top of my head, but there are others. However, they don't aim to cause as many casualties as possible, including people who don't work for or support said corporations. A far cry from ramming planes into buildings, blowing up mosque-fulls of Shias, or killing 800 Yazidi in the second deadliest terrorist attack in world history.
Why do they hate Shias and Yazidi, by the way?
Well, it would seem obvious to me that American foreign policy influences American actions in the ME, which influenced those who attacked on 9/11.
It is indeed obvious that a nation's foreign policy influences its actions in the realm of... uh... foreign policy. But you're getting ahead of yourself when you claim that the hijackers didn't like the fact that America imports Middle Eastern oil. Indeed, Europe imports more than we do, since we get a lot of ours from Canada and Mexico.
Now if you wanted to argue that American oil policy prevents Salafists from restoring the caliphate and that THAT is the reason al Qaeda hates America, I'd agree.
I'm slightly off topic, but if we only care about oil, why do we help Israel? 'We' don't. America does.
'We' don't. America does.
Even more off topic, but American Sign Language has two ways to say "we". One is referring to a group that is not in the room. The second refers to whoever in the room is included in the term "we". I was using the first.
In any case, it's clear that American Middle East policy is not purely motivated by oil. Even if it was, it doesn't change the reason al Qaeda launched the attacks. Those reasons were religious.
When did I say their motivations were non-political?
Sorry, I meant "non-religious".
I cited political, social and economic reasons.
Not really. Correct me if I missed something,* but I didn't see you actually quote or cite any writings, speeches, or propaganda videos.
Anti-semitic sentiment in the Middle East is a result of Israel's existence, not the other way around.
Antisemitism existed in the Middle East centuries before 1948. It took different forms than Christian antisemitism, but to deny it existing long before the first Aaliyah is just plain wrong.
Israel is hated because it is seen by many as a foreign, unwelcome interloper in Arab lands that was founded unilaterally and using the same tactics that, when undertaken by Arabs, are called terrorism.
I can't tell from your writing if you believe this tired stuff. If you do, I'd be willing to have that discussion at a different place, because there is a whole lot wrong with that astonishing generalization.
Well, America isn't currently bombing the shit out of Germany and her neighbours, nor South Korea and her neighbours.
We're bombing Egypt, the UAE, and Saudi Arabia? You should tell someone.
Certainly you don't mean Iraq. Al Qaeda also wanted to fight Iraq after they invaded Kuwait. Indeed, it was the Saudis' rejection of his aid that started the whole thing. And considering the group's mass murder of Iraqis, I'd find it hard to believe any tears Zawahiri or bin Laden shed for Operation Desert Storm's accidental civilian deaths were not the crocodile ones.
Nor do American fear-mongers and pundits spend hour after hour trash-talking Buddhism or Lutheranism (for example).
Wait, I thought religion was not a big motivating factor?
Not sure where these roving bands of Lutheran terrorists or the armies of non-Tamil Buddhist plane hijackers are. If you alerted these pundits I'm sure they'd be on the case. Make sure to tell them about the secret bombing campaign against Abu Dhabi and Cairo too.
I would hardly say that one Egyptian = many.
Thank you for pointing out the error. My point still stands. People who are angry that foreigners are in their country simply because they are foreigners would not invite Egyptians, Lebanese, and Emiratis. Al Qaeda's problem with the foreigners is that they are not Muslim.
Salafis know bloody well that they are hardliners, and they also know that the majority of Muslims are not.
[Citation needed.]
And who are you referring to when you say "Salafis"? Your definition is clearly different from every major scholar's, since it doesn't include the most important Salafist organization ever, so I'm not sure who you're talking about.
Well, the Qur'an makes it clear that[...]
Religious texts often contradict one another. People visiting r/atheism should already know this.
Required reading.
Under Muhammad's tenure as ruler in Yathrib, the Constitution of Medina (which included the Jewish tribes of Banu Qurayza, Banu Qunayqah and Banu Nadir) allowed for each group to follow their own faith.
Oh, you have got to be kidding me.
The Constitution of Medina? You mean the one Muhammad broke two years later?
Banu Qurayza? You mean the tribe whose men Muhammad and his followers slaughtered, whose women his followers raped, and whose children he sold into slavery?
Banu Qaynuqa? The tribe that Muhammad expelled?
Banu Nadir? The tribe that Muhammad also expelled months later?
Whatever site you got that from is written by borderline genocide deniers.
Monotheism, as opposed to polytheism, was the real object of Muhammad's statement concerning one religion.
Kuffar derives from the Arabic triliteral كفر which includes the idea of willful concealment, of hiding something.
As often happens with slurs, be they religious, sexual, or racial, the original definition is not the one currently used. "Faggot" originally meant a bundle of sticks. "Kike" comes from the Yiddish word for "circle". Only sociopaths would argue that those terms are not offensive.
Anyone even slightly familiar with Islamic fundamentalism has heard modern speakers use "kuffar" or "kaffir" when referring to non-Muslims or read Muslim writers use it from the first caliphate until modern times. This isn't controversial.
*I don't mean for that to sound as snobby as it does. Excuse my shitty writing skills.
[–]thenerdster 1 point2 points3 points 1 day ago
Dumb post "Religion" like everything else will always have extremists but That Kid in Col. who shot all those people in the theater over no religious reasons at all. It has been my experience that most religions have charities and orphanages and help people but almost all of them have a crazy every now and again..
[–]chipfox 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
nope. nope to everything about this picture.
[–]kstetsko21 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
Erm. No. Without religion the world would pretty much be nothing... The church funded many of the expeditions which caused the founding of the Americas. Many of the scientific advances would not have been done without money from the church. One of the reasons why the US declared dependence from England was freedom of religion (remember the pilgrims at Plymouth rock?). So basically without the catholic church, the world would be a very different place.
I'm not defending religion, I'm against it, it's just this is wrong because the world wouldn't be the same without it and saying that it would be is just plain wrong.
[–]JosephStylin -2 points-1 points0 points 1 day ago
do some research
[–]Hokiefan34 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
Just because they were Islamic Terrorists doesn't mean they did it for the will of Allah, the terrorists bombed the world trade centers because they hate America....
[–]ThatPRGuy -1 points0 points1 point 1 day ago
Yeah, cause the only reason man has ever fought about anything is religion.
[–]Cragvis -1 points0 points1 point 1 day ago
Good, youre learning.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
Ha ha! Yeah! All religions were equally responsible for 9/11!
[–]Arthener 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
Notice how the image looks brighter with religiON. Just puttin' it out there
[–]originul -1 points0 points1 point 1 day ago
Well this had nothing to do with religion, 9/11 was about a greddy business man who pulled off the greatest insurance scam of all time.
[–]MutinyAtThePicnic 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
Crazy people be crazy, with or without religion.
[–]Pleasureexplode 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
More of a geopolitical thing with a religious tinge.
[–]d3adbor3d2 0 points1 point2 points 17 hours ago
and the one million + iraqis that died in the following years? where's their memorial?
[–]sebb1503 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
You forgot to add space ships and more advanced Technology in the bottom picture.
[–]God_of_Abraham -1 points0 points1 point 1 day ago
I am all things, I am the engineers who constructed the towers, the people who worked in the towers, the planes that took down the towers, the force that drove the men to fly those planes, and the new tower that is rising up from the ashes. All is one. You don't need to respect god, God has made it clear: you have free choice and he will love you no matter what choice you have make. However, god has also made it clear: actions have consequences. You cannot be a murderer until you murder. You are free to claim the title if you chose, but know the title comes at a price for once you become what you are, you can never change it again.
Wat
[–]God_of_Abraham 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
tldr; you are god, together with everyone and everything we create reality.
You know, I heard this sentiment from another person on this subreddit at one time recently. He didn't have any way of explaining any of it to me, and I ask you the same question: How are you aware of this?
Existence has informed you, has it not? You choose to be or not to be. Clearly you are being. God is all beings. The supreme being.
Of course I know you've heard this before, and you won't stop hearing it until you wake up and see yourself for what you are. You are god, you will let this information anger you or inspire you.
Or, I will not let this ignorance into my mind for much longer. I'll just give you a few hints; none of us chose to be or not to be, if you're speaking individually. We were born, and we exist. The only choice is whether one drives his or her car off a bridge on the drive home or not in relation to being or not being.
If you're speaking metaphorically, looking at our species and why we have ascended intellectually above the average creature on this planet, we didn't choose that either - it happened because of certain specific situations our ancestors were faced with, overcame, and had to survive through.
Either way, what you're saying is at best philosophical and metaphorical, and at worst absolutely bat shit crazy. Whichever it may be, I - for one - don't buy it.
you chose to be, you are being... a human being. this is the natural choice of God to project your self.
[–]Lothens 0 points1 point2 points 20 hours ago
You're going to have to do better than that to convince me.
[–]shiboozle -5 points-4 points-3 points 1 day ago
Sorry, but I don't see how you can blame religion here. This wasn't an attack on religion, by religion, or even for religion. It was a terrorist attack designed to scare the public into submission to the government. The twist? The taliban were just puppets.
I think a better caption would be "Bush". "No Bush".
[–]Ninjabackwards 1 point2 points3 points 1 day ago
Bush had very little to do with causing it. This goes back to 1956 when we went to the middle east to over-though a leader and replace him with a guy who was nothing more than a crook.
True, he may not have been the sole cause, but he could have prevented it. Threats, warnings, other nations giving us a heads up. Bush wanted a war. Not for himself, but for his oil buddies.
[–]FABLOQWE -5 points-4 points-3 points 1 day ago
stop blaming all religions because of one religion that brings destruction not all religions are like that
[–]Bouncing_Beetle -1 points0 points1 point 1 day ago
All Abrahamic religions are.
[–]FABLOQWE 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
Agree but Islam is the most evil one even Richard Dawkins says that
[–]Bouncing_Beetle 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
I disagree, to me, Judaism is the most evil. Most of the evil things in both Christianity and Islam originated or were inspired by Judaism (which came first).
As for which has done the most widespread damage, Christianity would be the answer.
[–]alexxerth 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
I could be wrong, but isn't there a church just in the little building to the bottom right, with a little tiny bit of the top going into the skyline?
[–]Grindstone50k -1 points0 points1 point 1 day ago
Nope, that's just a really fancy bar.
[–]CpsLck 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
Seriously, 9/11 happened because Islam? What about decades of American heavy handed foreign policy what resulted in multiple wars that tore up the Middle East? What about Operation Cyclone, am American funded Pakistani military operation that was instrumental in training Islamic extremists including Osam bin Laden and other FBI wanted terrorists?
You reducing 9/11 to Islam is no better than what conservatives are doing with 9/11. All is does is stifle discussion and makes people feel superior to those 'barbaric Islamic terrorists' which is not productive. We should be examining our foreign policy and it's current motives and consequences and determining it's effect on the international community and US national security. Not this bullshit.
[–]Cragvis 1 point2 points3 points 1 day ago
you terrorist!
[–]Cryptonomicon 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
BRAVERY LEVEL: SO
[–]cluelessinseattle12 -3 points-2 points-1 points 1 day ago
ReligiON:http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XHuRFu11PDE/TmjY76VeVwI/AAAAAAAABGY/rOEh6-aRs9M/s1600/ground-zero-by-photosthatchangedtheworlddotcom.jpg
[–]eeviltwin 0 points1 point2 points 1 day ago
We have no idea of those people were religious or not, so I don't understand your choice of photo.
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
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