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[–]petemorley 89 points90 points ago

Didn't Bin Laden state that 911 was a reaction to American boots on the ground in Saudi Arabia?

[–]BeepbeepJeep1 61 points62 points ago

Get out of here with your geopolitical logic, the only obvious reason for 911 was religion. Yep, nothing to do with heavy handed foreign policy measures, numerous coups or torture.

[–]MIBPJ 6 points7 points ago

Don't forget that Bin Laden wasn't too happy about the US giving support to Israel!

[–]Nincro 3 points4 points ago

Well... this was said by Bin Laden after 9/11 in his video...

"If inciting people to do that is terrorism, and if killing those who kill our sons is terrorism, then let history be witness that we are terrorists ... We will work to continue this battle, God permitting, until victory or until we meet God before that occurs"

[–]petemorley 7 points8 points ago

His belief in god extends to colloquialism. Of course he's going to cite his god, if he believes in one. I'm still of the opinion that this was an inevitability with or without a deity.

[–]Seryth 4 points5 points ago

Exactly my thought. Although his acts as a whole were horrific, (and please don't think I'm condoning him/don't crucify me) it seems to me that his motives were at least some what more logical/understandable than Americas ever were.

[–]petemorley 1 point2 points ago

It's all about information and perspective, and I feel people are becoming more informed about the world around them. For example, this is probably the most mature conversation I've had on reddit, over a subject as emotive as this. And in r/atheism of all places.

[–]Magzter 0 points1 point ago

Petemorley is right that 911 was a reaction to American boots on the ground in Saudi, but to say it was inevitable without a religion is quite a stretch; Would we still have touched down in the middle east if there was no religion? What would Saudi Arabia be like with no religion? Would the same people have been in power with no religion?

It's always possible that the same outcome could have happened, but it's a bit of a stretch to say it was inevitable considering how many things would be different without religion.

[–]not_your_sister 0 points1 point ago

Honest question - do we still have boots on the ground there?

[–]tonithepony 1 point2 points ago

Why isn't this the top comment?

[–]reddit_user13 0 points1 point ago

Bases, yes.

[–]superpastaaisle 452 points453 points ago

It is naive to assume that man wouldn't just find some other reason to kill each other in the absence of religion.

[–]jeeebus 101 points102 points ago

Seriously, people kill each other because of perceived differences. If they didn't kill for religion they would kill for culture, or race, or money, or women, or power, or fuckin boredom.

Hell, the official story for the vietnam war was to stop the spread of communism, a fucking form of government.

The only reason we'd stop killing each other en masse is if we found something else to kill, e.g. extra terrestrials.

[–]Yossarian33 25 points26 points ago

I imagine you've read Watchmen.

[–]OriginalEmanresu 9 points10 points ago

Man, the graphic novel's ending was so much better than the movies...

Not trying to be a hipster, just sayin' I feel like the movies ending was too 'rainbows and unicorns' and it kinda made me feel like it missed the whole point of the thing....

[–]jeeebus 20 points21 points ago

The plan to nuke several cities to unite the world against Dr. Manhattan was 'rainbows and unicorns'? Damn I gotta pickup that graphic novel.

[–]nolimitz4me 12 points13 points ago

I LOVED the movie ending more than graphic novel. I SPOILER ALERT don't see how killing millions to save billions is rainbows and unicorns. It made perfect sense.

[–]wodahSShadow 4 points5 points ago

Both endings make sense but an alien threat just works better than the "American God".

[–]nolimitz4me 7 points8 points ago

I have to respectfully disagree. The "American God" Dr. Manhattan became a threat to the USA and everyone else when he was falsely blamed for the destruction of every major city. A truce between every country to somehow kill Dr Manhattan? Yeah, That totally beats the giant squid alien invasion.

[–]wodahSShadow 1 point2 points ago

He still was American, I doubt that detail would be forgotten just because USA also suffered.

[–]Thumpur 0 points1 point ago

The soviets would never have bought it. They would have thought it was an American trick. The original was far more believable.

[–]princess8711154 1 point2 points ago

You sir, are not alone

[–]Fronesis 0 points1 point ago

Man, the graphic novel's ending was so much better than the movies

I don't know about the novel, but the movie is all around bullshit.

[–]Violent_Fajitas 0 points1 point ago

Evidently test audiences started laughing when they used the original giant killer space squid, so that's why they switched to explosions.

I'm kinda glad they made that switch too.

[–]lolwatokay 0 points1 point ago

Or has watched The Architects of Fear!

[–]baxman343 0 points1 point ago

I imagine you also watched "Halo Legends"

[–]GhostofSenna 13 points14 points ago

"The only reason we'd stop killing each other en masse is if we found something else to kill, e.g. extra terrestrials."

The first thing that came to mind after reading this was Enders Game. Nearly the exact same thing happened. Many conflicting countries had to form the "Warsaw Pact" (i think) which banded humanity together until the threat of the aliens were eradicated. At the end of the book it discusses the problems with winning the war against the aliens and the end of the Warsaw Pact.

Humans will always find a purpose to fight, even if its not against each other.

[–]Xenc 1 point2 points ago

We'd still kill each other.

[–]AbstergoSupplier 2 points3 points ago

There was war between the Warsaw Pact (read: Soviets) and the American led Hegemony (read: NATO) who banded together when the aliens attacked and fell apart after they were defeated

[–]nxtm4n 1 point2 points ago

I just think it's terrible that war began again less than a week after the end of the Bugger war.

[–]Shinpachi 0 points1 point ago

Hard to take anything from Orson Scott Card seriously after reading Empire and the first few chapters of Hidden Empire. Especially after his bitter ramblings in the afterward about universities not wanting him.

[–]batquux 5 points6 points ago

They even kill each other for peace.

[–]redscream 3 points4 points ago

Absolutely true, but if you were to dramatically reduce the presence of one of those factors, it should lower the overall response that is related to that factor. I disagree with the idea that somehow religions were to disappear, that all violence would end, but surely some violence would end.

[–]imbeingsirius 0 points1 point ago

I was about to post this - thanks for getting into the debates for me!

[–]BouquetofDicks 5 points6 points ago

I wish I didn't agree with you.

edit But if I did, I would want to kill you.

[–]BeaverViking 30 points31 points ago

Yes, and Osama Bin Laden didn't want to kill us for Religious reasons. He was very clear on his motives.

[–]DemonFromWalmart 15 points16 points ago

"No, we fight you because we are free men who don't sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our Nation and just as you lay waste to our Nation, so shall we lay waste to yours. [...] the reasons are still there for a repeat of what occurred. I shall talk to you about the story behind those events and I shall tell you truthfully about the moments in which the decision was taken for you to consider. [...] Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers, but after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American-Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon it came to my mind:

The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. The bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorized and displaced. I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood, severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high-rises demolished over their residents; rockets raining down on our homes without mercy. The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child... powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon?

And the whole world saw and heard but didn't respond. In those difficult moments, many hard-to-describe ideas bubbled in my soul, but in the end they produced an intense feeling of rejection of tyranny and gave birth to a strong resolve to punish the oppressors. As I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children. That day, it was confirmed to me that oppression and the intentional killing of innocent women and children is a deliberate American policy. Destruction is freedom and democracy; while resistance is terrorism and intolerance. This means the oppressing and embargoing to death of millions, as Bush Sr. did in Iraq, in the greatest mass slaughter of children mankind has ever known and it means the throwing of millions of pounds of bombs and explosives at millions of children -- also in Iraq -- as Bush Jr. did in order to remove an old agent and replace him with a new puppet to assist in the pilfering of Iraq's oil and other outrages. So with these images and their like as their background, the events of September 11th came as a reply to those great wrongs. [...]

[It was made] easy for us to provoke and bait this administration. All that we have to do is to send two Mujahedin to the farthest point East to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qa'ida in order to make the generals race there to cause America to suffer human economic and political losses without their achieving for it anything of note other than some benefits to their private companies. This is in addition to our having experience in using guerilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers as we alongside the Mujahedin bled Russia for 10 years until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat. [...] So we are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy. [...]

Al-Qa'ida spent $500,000 on the event, while America in the incident and its aftermath lost -- according to the lowest estimates -- more than 500 billion dollars, meaning that every dollar of al-Qa'ida defeated a million dollars by the permission of Allah besides the loss of a huge number of jobs. As for the size of the economic deficit, it has reached record, astronomical numbers estimated to total more than a trillion dollars. And even more dangerous and bitter for America is that the Mujahedin recently forced Bush to resort to emergency funds to continue the fight in Afghanistan and Iraq which is evidence of the success of the bleed-until-bankruptcy plan with Allah's permission. [...]

And it all shows that the real loser is... you. It's the American people and their economy. And for the record, we had agreed with the Commander-General Muhammad Atta, Allah have mercy on him, that all the operations should be carried out within 20 minutes before Bush and his administration notice. It never occurred to us that the Commander-in-Chief of the American Armed Forces would abandon 50,000 of his citizens in the twin towers to face those great horrors alone at the time when they most needed him. But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers we were given three times the period required to execute the operations. All praise is due to Allah. And it's no secret to you that the thinkers and perceptive ones from among the Americans warned Bush before the war and told him.

All that you want for securing America and removing the weapons of mass destruction -- assuming they exist -- is available to you and the nations of the world are with you in the inspections and it is in the interest of America that it not be thrust into an unjustified war with an unknown outcome. But the darkness of the black gold blurred his vision and insight and he gave priority to private interests over the public interest of America. So the war went ahead, the death toll rose, the American economy bled and Bush became embroiled in the swamps of Iraq that threatened his future [...] you may recall that for every action, there is a reaction.

[...] In conclusion, I tell you in all truth that your security is not in the hands of Kerry, nor Bush, nor al-Qa'ida. No, your security is in your own hands. And every state that doesn't play with our security, has automatically guaranteed its own security."

[–]greasywiener 17 points18 points ago

Yeah, seriously. 9/11 had nothing to with this quote from Bin Laden "We fought you because we are free ... and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our security we undermine yours", nope, not at all, it was just because he was a Muslim.

[–]MRhama 5 points6 points ago

In fact according to OBL own words the main motive behind 9/11 was a political one not religious. But the two is intertwined and the act is a mix between being angry at US foreign policy and being zealous.

[–]hat678 29 points30 points ago

one less excuse

[–]Ultraseamus 12 points13 points ago

Eh, not really. It would just be replaced by a different/new excuse. When you think about it, the church is not all that different from other organizations. Kill for your god, kill for your king, kill for the color of your skin; people always find a reason to separate themselves into competing factions.

[–]jeeebus 3 points4 points ago

That's my only beef with this. Religion can persuade a man to kill without remorse and fight without fear of death. The only problem is religion isn't the only thing that can have that affect.

Wars happen regardless of the excuse used to justify fighting them. If it wasn't religion it would be some other equally compelling reason that would persuade men to fight (of which there are plenty of examples just in the past 100 years alone).

[–]tzfx 19 points20 points ago

Kill each other, sure, but kill themselves? In order to kill others? For a reward? Religion has a monopoly on suicidal martyrdom that not much else can touch.

[–]jeeebus 28 points29 points ago

In the battle of dien bien phu the Vietnamese stormed the entrenched french foreign legion troops with bombs strapped to their bodies. They didn't do it for religion or for a reward, they did it out of desperation because they were facing an immensely superior fighting force.

edit typos

[–]Mikebx 8 points9 points ago

Didn't Kamikaze pilots do basically the same? They died for honor and their empire

[–]krackbaby 3 points4 points ago

For the God Emperor of Nippon

[–]MrMosinMan89 14 points15 points ago

I don't disagree with the point of this thread, but that's not true. The inventor of modern suicide terrorism and by far the most prolific user of suicide bombing attacks was the LTTE (Tamil Tigers), a secular, separatist group in Sri Lanka. People forget this all the time, but by definition, terrorism is politically motivated. Purely religiously motivated violence would not be terrorism (like the thuggee cult).
Religion has a large (tremendous) deal to do with certain organizations; it's how they recruit, motivate, and control their fighters, but terrorism is always about politics. No religion would help, but as long as countries, borders, cultures, races, governments, and money exist, people are gonna find plenty of reasons to kill each other

tl;dr- non-religious terrorists use suicide bombings too

[–]ahawks 7 points8 points ago

Is it really that hard to imagine that someone would go on a suicide mission to bring honor/respect/fame/wealth to their family? I wouldn't say religion has a monopoly on it.

[–]nazilaks 2 points3 points ago

cough cough pearl habor cough flew into the ships

[–]the_goodnamesaregone 3 points4 points ago

Actually there weren't kamikazes at Pearl Harbor. A few planes that were shot down hit ships but none were necessarily aimed at a ship if they weren't damaged. That was later in the war. And they did that for the glory of the Japanese Empire, which in a military controlled government, "The Empire" might as well be the Japanese fighters religion.

[–]science_diction 6 points7 points ago

It's naive to think religion alone is the cause of 9/11 - especially when the person who engineered the attack was trained and armed by the United States to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

[–]Pappas07 3 points4 points ago

I would rather man find a better reason that for the invisible man upstairs...

[–]Mikebx 5 points6 points ago

Such as race? Maybe nationality? Oh wait

[–]bobbybouchier 8 points9 points ago

You mean like a failed political ideology? Yeah....so much better..

[–]unitedpolicestates -1 points0 points ago

it is better, because politics are real.

[–]demonsquiggle 1 point2 points ago

Not for the republican party.

[–]Karlog24 1 point2 points ago

[–]gousssam 0 points1 point ago

This is not a valid comparison.

[–]newphone 3 points4 points ago

Why not?

[–]aRRoSC2 1 point2 points ago

for the same reason knives shouldn't be illegal even though they are used for stabbing people

[–]PunchingBob -1 points0 points ago

I came here to say this, and am glad someone else already did.

[–]honorface -2 points-1 points ago

It is sad you assume we would.

[–]Gobolo 10 points11 points ago

It's because people suck. It's inevitable that man fights against man.

[–]FSMfan 5 points6 points ago

Except we do. Humans are tribal in nature.

[–]InsulinDependent 1 point2 points ago

It is naive to assume that the belief of death being a fantasy doesn't enable extreme danger that would not be possible otherwise.

[–]onus111 -1 points0 points ago

People will always kill. But, not with sophomoric justifications of imaginary concepts. It is the implication that religion opposes critical thinking which would defer violence. Coupled by the correlation of lacking religious beliefs with higher education suggests that this is true. There is reasonable and empirical grounds to argue that with less religion we are less violent and more intelligent. Unfortunately, people are far too inclined to take that personally and subjectively rather than apply it objectively and to human as a whole. We need to constantly evaluate our race as a whole and what benefits it. Religion is in line to the chopping block.

[–]TheBlindCrotchMaker -1 points0 points ago

I’ve been reading Ray Kurzweils “The Singularity is Near” and he continues to talk about imbuing technology with human intelligence in the future. Yet he always paints it with a brush of peace tranquility and never ending discovery. However, It seems like war, threat aversion, retaliation, tribalism, greed, envy and power are all innate components of human intelligence so even post singularity I find it hard to believe that super intelligent techno humans would be able to find true peace and contentment. War is part of the lifecycle of mankind.

[–]spitz 0 points1 point ago

You don't even have to wait for the absence of religion, they can do it even when religion is still around.

To be clear, at most, religious only represents a superstitious way to woefully misunderstand what your reasons for doing something are, so there isn't any action that can't be performed without religion; there are only things people mistakenly believe are religious.

The attack on religion and other similar ideas should be more about making it so that those mistakes are made less often, so that when we get into debates about the causes of terrorism, what can be done to stop it, or how we're justified in participating in it, our conversations can be moved towards a base grounded in reality rather than a base grounded in the desires of magic men in ethereal realms or anything of that nature.

But it will be hard to get to that point if the debate continues to focus on claims like "they killed a bunch of people!" and rebuttals of "other people can also kill people."

[–]GameAddikt -1 points0 points ago

An up vote for you sir/madam!

[–]ImAWhaleBiologist 0 points1 point ago

It's naive to assume that those reasons don't already exist, regardless of the presence of religion. It's still one of the best methods to convince a mob that they need to stick pointy things into bad people that we don't like.

Why not be rid of it?

[–]A_Chewy_Lemon -1 points0 points ago

I'd rather kill you over something real rather then imigainary.

[–]Nincro -1 points0 points ago

The question of it is of the attacks on the WTC and the Attacks on D.C.

Would violence disappear if religion disappeared? Of course not, Their are alot of reasons for violence and anyone who thinks that religion has caused all of the worlds violence is unbelievable arrogant.

Would the world be a better place without religion? In many aspects yes.

The motives behind the attacks on 9/11/2001 were without question religious, Had the group not had a extreme view of Sunni Islamism and held a strict view on sharia law the attacks would not had happened, Period. Their were many political and nationalist views in the whole equation of things, but the main one, and the one that stands out the most is their extremist view on Islam. Could a Nationalist Non religious group have done it? Of course, but in this aspect, the ones who did, did it for religious fundamentalism.

[–]NGeX 1 point2 points ago

Its called money. 9/11 was not based solely on faith. As a matter of fact, there is evidence that it wasn't.

[–]dizzysmile -1 points0 points ago

You're right. But as far as I'm concerned this image is specifically referring to 9/11, which I can say with near certainty would not have happened if it weren't specifically for religion. Would there be other attacks, other tragedies? Most certainly. But this one and countless others would most likely have been prevented, and that matters.

[–]speedyspaceturtle -1 points0 points ago

I gave you an upvote, but that wasn't enough to express my agreement with this statement. If religion isn't the sole cause of mankind's moral structure, then it sure as Hell isn't the sole cause of mankind's crimes against each itself.

[–]vadergeek 1 point2 points ago

It does seem like certain killings might stop (stonings, that sort of thing), but wasn't 9/11 a reaction to American politics as well?

[–]Just_another_man 0 points1 point ago

Thank you for saying what I wanted to, but far more eloquently.

[–]reese_ridley 8 points9 points ago

I think this image carries a lot of meaning, but I won't share it on my facebook. I think it simplifies a very complex issue that delves into geopolitics as a whole and I think that to say "this is solely the fault of religion" would be offensive to somebody who was personally affected by it.

so, I guess I'll FTFY

[–]z4chman 45 points46 points ago

Imagine a world without horrible U.S. foreign policy...

[–]yep45 3 points4 points ago

I see reddit likes victim-blaming in the context of geopolitics.

[–]RonBurgundy_says 0 points1 point ago

Are you saying that if we keep our shit out of everyone else's business then we're less at risk for domestic attacks!? How dare you! That amounts to treason!

Also: 'merca

[–]mixoman 134 points135 points ago

Religion did not cause 9/11. The idea that they attacked us, "because they hate our freedom," is a lie that Bush told. Bin Laden himself said something to the effect of, "If we hated them because of their freedoms [which is code-talk for religious reasons], why didn't we attack Switzerland?" We were attacked for geo-political reasons, quit making atheists look bad.

EDIT: I should clarify. Matters like al-Qaeda's motivations for attacking us are extremely complex and can't be simplified, which admittedly is exactly what I did by saying, "geo-political reasons." Obviously you can't divorce Islam from almost anything that happens in the middle east because it's so pervasive. I'm not arguing that Islam is a swell ideology. I think it's nonsense. I also acknowledge that Bin Laden was most definitely not a cool dude. I only posted because one of the great follies throughout human history is the creation of easy narratives for personal gain. I'm an atheist, and it would be awesome if the world were so black and white that religion is the only root of any problem, because I have fundie friends and I'd love to shove that in their faces. But pretending that that's the case is intellectually lazy and disingenuous.

[–]DerManiac 3 points4 points ago

Uhm, didn't Bin Laden also say "I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation."

[–]Pigtroll 31 points32 points ago

The act itself of martyrdom in the Quaran states:

(4:74) "So let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. And he who fights in the cause of Allah and is killed or achieves victory - We will bestow upon him a great reward."

To say 9/11 had nothing to do with religion is incorrect.

[–]FrisianDude 35 points36 points ago

That might, at most, have calmed the minds of those willing to smash themselves into a building, but I doubt they wouldn't have done it -at all- if they weren't Muslim. Look at Japanese Kamikaze pilots. They were not Muslim either; they were simply fanatically loyal to their cause and if you're willing to die for your cause then you're willing to die explosively.

[–]mixoman 12 points13 points ago

Yes, it's true that the people who flew into those towers were Muslims. It's true that their stated end goal is to establish an Islamic state and further the Quran. But I'd say it's naive to think these men wouldn't have done what they had done had they been atheists. They used the Quran as justification, sure, but they just as easily could have used the banner of ethnic purity or class fairness. We shouldn't be giving these evil men an easy out: oh, they weren't bad, they were just misguided by evil religion! NO. They were monsters who used violent means to achieve their ends!

[–]Kuraido84 7 points8 points ago

Sure, the man is evil, but the religion is what justifies it for him. Get rid of religion, and there's one less thing that can justify killing others.

[–]itsjaredlol 1 point2 points ago

No, it isn't incorrect at all.

All you're stating is that the Quaran says these things.

Did the Quaran hijack the planes and fly them into the towers?

Because if it did, you would have a point.

Used to motivate the actual people who hijacked? Ok, I can roll with that, but Bin Laden himself said it wasn't religious reasons.

[–]hat678 2 points3 points ago

but it got even worse when W claimed that Jesus told him to go on a "crusade".

[–]I_Key_Cars 0 points1 point ago

Bin Laden also said the towers were full of Jews.

[–]lickmyplum 2 points3 points ago

[–]ambivalentasfuck 0 points1 point ago

It's the Occupation, Stupid

edit: Robert Pape counters the arguments of Sam Harris that Islamic Fundamentalism is to blame for the growing prevalence of suicide terrorism.

[–]gazork_chumble_spuzz 1 point2 points ago

Came here to say something along these lines, only to find that someone else had already said it, and said it way the heck better than I had.

[–]onus111 1 point2 points ago

Just what do you think the terrorists screamed before hitting the towers? "In the name of God!"? Or, "In the name of a ideology!"? Religion was definitively used to rationalize this violence and to try and argue otherwise is really turning attention away to how malicious it is in order to save face of being "insensitive". Religion justifies violence for many reasons and for a long time. We need to acknowledge this.

[–]ReddBox 4 points5 points ago

[–]prajnadhyana 12 points13 points ago

Yes, it's September 11th I get that, but I have a question for you:

Do you mourn on April 19th? Or November 22nd? How about January 28th? Or maybe February 1st?

Why not?

[–]Just_Another_Thought 1 point2 points ago

Because February 1st is my birthday. So as far as I'm concerned that's adult drinking time.

[–]choosyman 1 point2 points ago

9/11 happened right next to where I was, and we saw it happen live on TV, and I was old enough to remember it.

If you want to mourn every day there was serious loss of life in this world, even if not close to you or not remembered by you, you'll be mourning every day of the year.

But it's not simply loss of life that causes one to mourn. (Since 2000, more people in America have died slipping or drowning in their bathtubs than from terrorism.) It's how close it hits home. 9/11 hit really close to home for a lot of people.

[–]johnbondhus 7 points8 points ago

Lets correct this. Imagine a world without evil.

[–]ilovegeorgebush -1 points0 points ago

There is no such thing as evil.

[–]pillow_addiction 11 points12 points ago

This is such a stupid simplification.

[–]laalaaa 1 point2 points ago

Good guy reposter, actually says "Hey, this definitely isn't original material, but I feel like we should see it again." Thanks, op.

[–]connorthebard 1 point2 points ago

My good pal Jared Diamond (who wrote a Pulitzer Prize winning book called Guns, Germs, and Steel that anybody in AP World History probably read) wrote that Religion was organized in order to control the masses.

Looks like it's doing its job well.

Oh, and btw, Diamond and I are not really pals... I really thought pals had two lls "palls"... le sigh.

[–]badstack35 17 points18 points ago

Religion doesn't cause horrible acts of violence. It's just what the insane people who commit them use to justify their actions.

[–]TyleReddit 11 points12 points ago

"To get good people to do wicked things, you need religion", I disagree with you, though I see what you're saying and that is true as well. It is used to justify terrible acts, but what if that "justification" weren't there to begin with? They might still happen for other reasons, but it would be one less justification for evil which would be a good thing.

[–]watson_and_crick 5 points6 points ago

I agree completely. There are many incredible arguments in Dawkins' The God Delusion which efficiently make this point. People often label religious fanatics as psychopaths and distance the actions from the religion, but in many cases these people are not psychopaths, they are just unquestioning in their religious conviction and follow their scripture to the letter. These people many times just believe in blind faith to a point where it is less that they want to kill people and more that they desire achieving martyrdom, which grants them access to a paradise reserved only for them and the prophets. I don't understand why people have such a hard time accepting that these people aren't all crazy, they are often just religious to the letter.

[–]DfizzleShizzle 0 points1 point ago

Exactly. Many Christians believe in unquestioning loyalty to their God, so how are they going to say "well that guy just went too far", when in fact he was just doing what his book told him to.

[–]suicidemachine 0 points1 point ago

But those people who did this thought it was good to do it in the name of their religion. That's the point of this picture, I think.

[–]wilywampa 0 points1 point ago

How can you possibly know that? Was there some psychological evaluation of the hijackers before they acted that showed them to be insane, or are you just speculating to justify your own point of view? Was every single person who did horrible things in the name of religion during the Crusades or Spanish Inquisition insane, or could it be that sometimes, yes, people do horrible things that are caused entirely by their religious beliefs?

[–]samsdayfuss 0 points1 point ago

Religion is an inherently dangerous system. Relying on faith instead of reason can lead to insane people turning other people insane, which is almost always what happens.

[–]Jimi_With_2_eyes 5 points6 points ago

anti-religion ≠ atheism

[–]RonSwansonsMoustache 4 points5 points ago

Religion is the only thing keeping some of those crazies in line.

[–]patsmith 7 points8 points ago

Imagine no aeroplanes.

[–]SolomanGrundy 5 points6 points ago

I cannot stand this fucking day. All of these reminders and #NEVERFORGET.

I'm sorry, but what exactly am I supposed to not forget? Is it that time when the adults and people of authority lost their cool and decided the country needed to go to war against an emotion? Am I supposed to be never forgetting that the military has destroyed two countries since then and is looking for another? Am I supposed to never forget when the mission was deemed accomplished years ago? Am I supposed to never forget the people held in Guantanamo being tortured and held indefinitely? Condolences to the families that lost somebody that was in those towers or on those planes, but I think after eleven years, the day needs to be looked at with some perspective, and not as a hyper-nationalistic rallying cry.

[–]13east69 0 points1 point ago

Is it wrong that I much prefer the design of the Freedom Tower to the original WTC?

[–]xdzgor 0 points1 point ago

This has been an interesting thread! I actually thought that the attacks on the US on 9/11 were religiously motivated. Thanks for opening my eyes!

[–]bradythemonkey 2 points3 points ago

Imagine... No sin.

[–]arudius 0 points1 point ago

Being someone who's lived in both Boston and NYC, I'm fairly certain that this picture is from Boston.

[–]Clipssy 2 points3 points ago

Imagine no greed for oil fields in other countries.

[–]Miami808 2 points3 points ago

NEVER FORGET BUILDING 7.

[–]immijimmi 2 points3 points ago

It's easy if you try.

[–]riddimpirate 2 points3 points ago

...and no corporations too...

[–]JosephStylin 0 points1 point ago

If you still think that this attack was entirely religious than you're ignorant as fuck. Don't make a blanket statement, especially when you obviously haven't done any research.

[–]tOxDeLivER 2 points3 points ago

To all those saying that mankind doesn't need religion to want to kill each other, you're correct. However, religion does make it very enticing when you're promised an ultimate reward and a better life for killing off the other side.

[–]Boxus 0 points1 point ago

It wasn't just a religious attack, it was a political attack, an attack on the American way of life. Those fucks just hate the way we live, democracy, and the freedom that Americans have and they don't. So its both political and religious.

[–]Can_Verify_this 0 points1 point ago

Too fucking soon man, too fucking soon.

[–]Nage 0 points1 point ago

you realize atheism doesn't cure people that are just fucking crazy right?

[–]hero1012878 2 points3 points ago

'murica

[–]pakiman47 0 points1 point ago

US foreign policy is what led to 9/11.

[–]deja-vu-comment 7 points8 points ago

Would the world be a better place without religion? Possibly, it would most likely be a more educated place, or at least science would be more advanced.

However, to say that a world without religion would necessarily be a peaceful one is simply not true. Humans have killed, raped and subjugated each other for time immemorial. It has been for different reasons always, but humans have never just gotten along very well. If it was not Allah Vs. Yahweh that causes war, it would be race, or language, or hair color, or what city-state you were born in.

As we like to say all the time Hitler did not kill 10,000,000 people for religious reasons. He did it because he was a sadistic lunatic of the highest order who happened to gain control of a nation.

Even if the Dark Ages did not happen and we (somehow) exponentially increased world-wide learning, and we raced into the heavens and colonized other planets, other galaxies, there would still be horrible wars where millions would die, except instead of two planes hitting towers for a god someone would nuke a planet from orbit because they were dirty dirty fucking greenies down there, and we don't take kindly to greenies.

.

[–]Kirk__Cameron 11 points12 points ago

However, to say that a world without religion would necessarily be a peaceful one is simply not true. Humans have killed, raped and subjugated each other for time immemorial. It has been for different reasons always, but humans have never just gotten along very well. If it was not Allah Vs. Yahweh that causes war, it would be race, or language, or hair color, or what city-state you were born in.

Nobody said it would be completely peaceful. The world has too many problems to say that religion causes all of them. However, doing away with religion would decrease a lot of the world problems, which is a step towards abolishing them. This reminds me of the "people will still kill eachother anyway" anti-gun control argument. It's incoherent, and a strawman at its finest.

As we like to say all the time Hitler did not kill 10,000,000 people for religious reasons. He did it because he was a sadistic lunatic of the highest order who happened to gain control of a nation.

I'm not saying Hitler wasn't a lunatic, but in the first chapter of Mein Kampf he claims that he's doing God's work by destroying the Jewish people. Also, given his Roman Catholic upbringing, am I suppose to think that his hatred for the Jews had nothing to do with the fact that antisemitism was preached as an official doctrine of the church until 1964? Or that the first treaty of the National Socialist Dictatorship was with the Vatican? No, religion did have something to do with it. This is simply the "well he wasn't a true Christian" argument.

Even if the Dark Ages did not happen and we (somehow) exponentially increased world-wide learning, and we raced into the heavens and colonized other planets, other galaxies, there would still be horrible wars where millions would die, except instead of two planes hitting towers for a god someone would nuke a planet from orbit because they were dirty dirty fucking greenies down there, and we don't take kindly to greenies.

To even make that claim is absurd. How would you know? Maybe technological advances could've cultivated a much better world to live in, giving us less reason to be at war with eachother? Maybe due to this techonology, wars over economics and resources would've been prevented?

[–]fati_mcgee 4 points5 points ago

I'm pretty convinced that we humans are so flawed and stupid, if religion, race, gender didn't exist we'd just find something else to hate each other over.

[–]yotsit 2 points3 points ago

Imagine there's no countries

It isn't hard to do

Nothing to kill or die for

And no religion too

Imagine all the people living life in peace

[–]Rapante 2 points3 points ago

Religion had not much to do with the demolition of the WTC.

[–]Kap001 4 points5 points ago

This should be captioned "Imagine No Hate" not "Imagine No Religion".

[–]TheSmart0ne 1 point2 points ago

Hundreds of wars would be avoided

[–]battaglion 3 points4 points ago

This image is a tricky thing to deploy. It borders on using the sentiments of 9/11 to suggest abandoning religion, or put another way, to me it smacks of "see, if there was no religion this wouldn't have happened".

I know that's not the case. There's more to the train of thought than a childish oversimplified cause-and-effect. But I also know that when this image gets posted on facebook or somewhere similar, you have to be careful to frame it in such a way that others will actually ponder it for a moment rather than just "what a dick, using 9/11 as an excuse to push atheism".

I still love the image. It's just tricky to maneuver.

[–]idunnothis 1 point2 points ago

♪ you may say keep dreaming ♫

♪ gonna take some time ♫

[–]EvOllj 4 points5 points ago

Without religion the WTC would have a spaceship docking station.

[–]JohnyWishbone 0 points1 point ago

I actually do believe that religion will be gone by 2050 in Europe as for North America i am not so sure.

Source:Grew up in England watching chruches closer or get smaller, Came to Canada where there is a shit ton of churches and larger congregations.

[–]compressors_are_bad 0 points1 point ago

Reddit is how I know there are a ton of bigoted, stupid atheists in the world.

[–]-AC- 0 points1 point ago

Hey, lets take one day off from the Pro-religion vs. religion battle and go spend time with family, find a good deed to do, or maybe just not argue about it...

[–]postal_blowfish 2 points3 points ago

First of all, the attacks were politically motivated and this image in particular (and particularly, today) makes atheists look like pricks. I have a problem with that, because I'm one of those atheists. Whoever made this image didn't even have the respect for our intelligence to present an honest premise, instead relying on our emotional response to try and get us to grant a false premise. There, I said it, and now I doubt anyone will ever read it.

Secondly, we could be better off without religion. Not because religion is inherently violent (it is abused to justify violence - that's an important distinction). My problem with religion is that it promotes (commands, really) ignorance. There is no room for information other than what is provided from the holy source. And don't learn anything, just trust what you're given.

The world would be a slightly better place without all of that brainwashing, but only slightly - there are still other ways of brainwashing people. It's like saying the situation could be better if we took a bucket out of a flood. Sure, it could and you might not notice a significant change, but that's no reason to refuse to try and dry things up.

[–]yuccu 2 points3 points ago

9/11 was not a religious attack. 9/11 was a response to the occupation of Arab lands by Western military forces. Although the attackers religion played a role in motivating them towards their goal, it was always in the context of removing the foreign occupation of the Middle East. This guy explains it better than I ever could Dying to Win

[–]dueceloosly 1 point2 points ago

Loose change!

[–]Toommm -2 points-1 points ago

That's the first time that sentence actually touched my feelings.

[–]mitch172 -1 points0 points ago

[–]blackmagicben 0 points1 point ago

Since it has been in the news lately...

"When the debris settled on Ground Zero, it was found that two pieces of mangled girder still stood in the shape of a cross, and much wondering comment resulted. Since all architecture has always involved crossbeams, it would be surprising only if such a feature did not emerge. I admit that I would have been impressed if the wreckage had formed itself into a Star of David or a star or crescent, but there is no record of this ever having occurred anywhere, even in places where local people might have been impressed by it."

-- Christopher Hitchens, "god is not Great"

[–]SpaghettiSandwich -1 points0 points ago

Although founded in religion, most of Al Qaida's reasonings for attacks (including 9/11) are purely political. So even if they didn't use religion as a recruiting tool, they'd still hate us for our world politics and actions in the middle east.

[–]scottNOT 1 point2 points ago

I think the point here is that the trade centers were attacked with religious motives...Obviously humans have many other reasons to disagree. Many strong enough to provoke violence. Religion is a BIG one though. We will not stop trying to repair humanity after religion is done away with. No, fix it all. I am certain we can learn to live peacefully in all aspects. You may say im a dreamer, but im not the only one. I hope some day you will join is, and the world will live as one:)

[–]michusz -2 points-1 points ago

I'm not religous myself but you have to ask yourself where morality and our current come from.. I think religion was an important step in the history of mankind.

[–]podank99 1 point2 points ago

I was in NYC at the time, and the first concert i saw afterwards was at irving plaza, at 14th street, below which you still couldnt walk because it was CLOSED--and the show was Built to Spill.

Front man Doug did an encore, and he pulled out Imagine.

When the lyrics "Imagine no religion" and the other similar lines came up, the audience spontaneously CHEERED at the top of our lungs--no prompting, just contextual truth of where we were.

I actually have a recording of this show, it was the first built to spill show i'd ever been to---and every time i listen, it still gives me chills.

i'll email it to anybody who wants it.

[–]ADubs62 -1 points0 points ago

It was the US interfering in Afghanistan and then leaving the rebels they had supported with no support as soon as it was clear the soviets were giving up, that started the road towards 9-11, not religion. The type of people who were convinced to suicide themselves would have been capable of being persuaded even if there was no such thing as religion. Seriously people how about you think before you fucking speak.

[–]wevebeenlied2 -1 points0 points ago

911 was not about religion it was about business. religion was just the cover up so the u.s. would feel good about going to war so the war machine could rape us for trillions upon trillions

[–]Self_Manifesto -1 points0 points ago

More like "imagine no possessions."

[–]deepfeeld 0 points1 point ago

American Imperialism had nothing to do with those attacks? Grow up.

[–]DragonNinjaRobot -1 points0 points ago

That church in the background would have to go.

[–]minja -1 points0 points ago

From the preview pic I thought it was going to be Stonehenge...

[–]The_Red_Hood -1 points0 points ago

Saw this when I was scrolling http://imgur.com/oxFiN

[–]TheRedditor560 -1 points0 points ago

Still makes a cross.....

[–]parrotman9603 -1 points0 points ago

Unfortunately that's only in a perfect world.

[–]grigorG -1 points0 points ago

YOUR HEAD IS FUCKING ILL-EQUIPPED MY FRIEND.

[–]grigorG -1 points0 points ago

/r/anti-theist has done it again, proved it's fucking idiocy

[–]thatusernameisal -1 points0 points ago

You should really watch South Park S10E12-13.

[–]Blanketsheet_ -1 points0 points ago

STOP POSTING THIS PICTURE OVER AND OVER REDDIT.

[–]Brando2600 -1 points0 points ago

Ohboyherewego.jpg

[–]summerlover4369 -1 points0 points ago

The terrorist attacks would still have occurred if there was no religion. Islam was an excuse.

[–]Riov 1 point2 points ago

No religion would not have stopped anything. That's silly, people will find a different thing to assemble.

[–]W00ster -1 points0 points ago

I read many comments about how man would kill each other over other issues than religion and that is all fine and dandy. What most people seems to forget is that when an issue take over your whole persona to such a degree you are willing to kill on a massive scale for it, it has become your religion!

[–]shadybros -1 points0 points ago

Here's the question I want honestly answered, people can give a fuckload of different quotes but really- Did Al Qaeda(Osama Bin Laden) attack our country because we were "infidels" in their religion, because of our freedom, because we were taking away their freedom, or a variety of reasons?

[–]merkaloid -1 points0 points ago

Caliph Bin-Laden has declared a Jihad against United States.

-Crusader Kings 3

[–]doorsthatslam -1 points0 points ago

This doesn't help the atheism movement. I would find a different argument to make.

[–]Archontor 0 points1 point ago

The fact that people would find another reason is irrelevant. One reason down is one closer to getting rid of all reasons for war.

[–]Circus2 -1 points0 points ago

Many would probably disagree with me, but 9/11 was definitely a politically motivated attack and had nothing whatsoever to do with religion.

[–]RajanKian -1 points0 points ago

There is a reason why /r atheism has a horrible reputation. Thank you for perpetuating the stereotype.

[–]Auroros 0 points1 point ago

"..And no religion too"

[–]compulsorypost -1 points0 points ago

The irony: Enlightenment777 is not enlightened. If religion didn't exist, we'd still be killing each other. We kill each other for greed or wrath and justify it with things like righteousness or religion. You are but a fool dreaming of a mythical utopia.

[–]Zeratas 1 point2 points ago

Science flew us to the moon and religion flew us into buildings.

[–]alittler -2 points-1 points ago

Reminder? Yeah, because we all fucking forgot

[–]Arbiter577 -1 points0 points ago

Wow. Just wow. TC, how old are you? Do you not realize that humans will ALWAYS find reason to chafe on one another? Jesus, I'm not even an American and I find this disgustingly narrowminded. And I'm an atheist.

[–]FeculentUtopia -1 points0 points ago

Sheesh. I've had one of these I made myself a couple years after 9/11. I'd have posted it a long time ago if I knew I coulda whored a thousand karma with it.

[–]_kvl_ -1 points0 points ago

Instead of being about religion it could have easily had to do with culture, race, economic means or any number of other things.

Religion was not the evil that caused this event, religion was the justification misused and abused by one to hurt the other.

[–]CDoyleMU9 -1 points0 points ago

How is this?? I don't even....

[–]blakeblake 1 point2 points ago

Two words. GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACY.

[–]landl0rd -1 points0 points ago

This is a very cynical and arrogant way to reflect on 9/11, quite frankly.

[–]greekfreak15 1 point2 points ago

THIS HAS 911 UPVOTES

[–]yep45 -1 points0 points ago

Osama bin Laden is whatever reddit wants him to be at any given time. If you're on /r/politics and want to bring him up, you can say "he caused 9/11 because of America's oppressive foreign policy!" If you're on /r/atheism you can say, "no, it was because of RELIGION!!"

Of course I'm equally sure that there are plenty of other threads today saying "9/11 wasn't a big deal, grow up Amerifags"

[–]drexalparks 1 point2 points ago

okay deaths and tragedy aside, Those buildings were an eye sore and were generally hated by new yorkers for blemishing the Manhattan landscape. But then again I am a huge asshole.

[–]paulydrizzlef -1 points0 points ago

9/11 was caused by a lot more factors than religion and it's ignorant to say it wouldn't have happened without it.

[–]draguu 2 points3 points ago

stay classy r/atheism

[–]-TurtlePower- 1 point2 points ago

It makes people mad because it's so true.

[–]ItalianDanMan 0 points1 point ago

Its shit like this that allows people to paint atheists as a bunch of assholes. A lot of innocent people died 11 years ago, and even more have died as a result of our responses since than. Yes, religion is a justification and often a cause for horrible actions, but humanity is quite capable of finding reasons to commit atrocities without hiding behind a religious belief. If atheists truly want to raise ourselves above the chains religion imposes on many, than we should do it without using a national tragedy as an insensitive jab at theists. Its because of people like you that I Constantly have to deal with false equivalency bullshit when I defend atheism, because theists just point to dumb shit like this to prove there point. All your showing is that anyone, regardless of his or her beliefs can be naive to human nature and be ignorant enough with regards to human nature enough to think that removing single trait from society will fix all our problems and stop mass killings and wars.

[–]Whathalfling 1 point2 points ago

What a weird coincidence. The upvote count read '911' when I clicked on this link. Proof.

[–]blastedt -1 points0 points ago

I'm not opposing your right to be a narrow-minded bigot, but wasn't the point of the attacks to get the US out of their country?

[–]InkedRed -1 points0 points ago

Sure. Exploit a tragedy just to say "lolol religun sux."

[–]captaincourage -1 points0 points ago

9/11 was not due to religion. sensationalist wrong post by OP.

9/11 was due to horrible treatment of Palestinians by US-Israeli nexus.

9/11 would have happened with or without religion.

[–]JTHipster -1 points0 points ago

We wouldn't have been able to build those without religion. Feudalism did a number on Europe's libraries.

[–]Clev3r -1 points0 points ago

I love when people use tragedy to push their own agendas.

/s