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American or not, Sept. 11 is a day away. For a day that I will always remember, it is the first thing I remember when I imagine a world without Religion. (cdnimg.visualizeus.com)
submitted 1 day ago by SmokeyBaxter
[–]chuckknucka 14 points15 points16 points 16 hours ago
Religion gave the hijackers the courage to follow through with their suicide. The motivation was decades of shitty US foreign policy.
[–]nik27 1 point2 points3 points 11 hours ago
Exactly, my same point but condensed
[–]viewerdoer -1 points0 points1 point 4 hours ago
religion didn't give courage, knowing your country men women and children are being bombed and killed for years drives a man to his last resort. religion or not. this post is bullshit not because religion isn't bullshit but because it discredits the real reason behind such horrific events
[–]IpodCoffee 0 points1 point2 points 54 minutes ago
Actually for suicides religion plays a larger part. Terrorism will happen whenever people feel they are out of options but that does not mean they would kill themselves for their cause. They would probably attempt find a way to survive so that they could continue the fight. Can you think of a suicide attack by an atheist? I would love to find one.
[–]nik27 9 points10 points11 points 21 hours ago
To actually commit the act of suicide bombing because of the belief in 72 virgins is because of religion yet the resentment for the U.S. and reasoning behind the attacks was the U.S. occupation and unconstitutional bombing and leveling of the middle east in the 90's. That being said I do believe that the Twin Towers would still be standing if not for religion but there would still be the conflict we have today regardless of the presence of religion.
[–]Adhoc_hk 5 points6 points7 points 17 hours ago
Religion is man made. Everything we see that is bad (or good) with religion is just us. That is the cold hard truth. Same with government, same with how our societies operate. We don't need to push out religion, we need to push out irrational thought. But that being said, we are human. So good luck with that.
[–]tumescentpie -2 points-1 points0 points 16 hours ago
Technology is faster than evolution. Would you give a primate control of a nuclear missile?
(Too late we already have them).
[–]Naruen 0 points1 point2 points 12 hours ago
Too late we already have them
Nukes, primates, or primates in control of nukes?
[–]tumescentpie 0 points1 point2 points 12 hours ago
Primates in control of nukes.
[–]cheekaleak -2 points-1 points0 points 12 hours ago
Yes, but religion is irrational. Humans created religion and, in turn, religion created irrational humans.
[–]tumescentpie 2 points3 points4 points 16 hours ago
Considering that if we roll back farther those conflicts were caused by much of the fall out from WW2 and the resulting cold war, both of which used religious overtones to justify actions (the Nazi party with their Aryan mythology in WW2 and then the us with Stamping God on all the money to prove that a god was on our side).
[–]superdude4agze 0 points1 point2 points 15 hours ago
Precisely. Can't have Hitler wanting to wipe out all jews if there aren't any jews to begin with.
[–]tumescentpie 0 points1 point2 points 15 hours ago
Well that took an unexpected turn...
[–]AnotherClosetAtheist 1 point2 points3 points 10 hours ago
I thought Bin Laden was pissed because Saudi Arabia chose the US over him to repel Hussein back into Iraq. American Infidels stepping on Mecca was a crime that could not be forgiven.
[–]corporeal-entity -2 points-1 points0 points 13 hours ago
Being that the towers were called the World Trade Center, I would argue that the worship of currency is a religion in itself. We build more and bigger monuments to Finance than anyone ever did for a theistic god. I think that idea was lost on the creator of that image.
[–]robx0r 3 points4 points5 points 15 hours ago
My cousin killed himself on that date last year. The funeral was a preacher saying how he was likely in hell. Watching his parents hurt from this over the past year has been awful. A world without religion. One can only dream.
[–]Lothens 5 points6 points7 points 15 hours ago
Nobody beat the Preacher's ass right then and there?
I was at a funeral for a family member who had spent most of his adult life in jail. When he got out, he was nothing but nice to me, and his family - completely turned himself around. The preacher said something to that effect, and an old man in bib overalls stood up, walked up to the front where the Preacher was speaking - who had stopped speaking at this point, wondering what the man was doing.
The man was a friend of my dead relative, and took the microphone from the Preacher, spoke into it "Harold was a good friend, and everyone came here to pay their respects for a loved one who's gone. If I hear another word about how bad of a person he was and you don't know if he's in heaven or hell, you'll be able to find out, cause I'll send you there."
He gave the microphone back, and slowly walked back to his seat, sat down, during which the ENTIRE PLACE stood up and gave thundering applause. Hero.
[–]Amryxx 1 point2 points3 points 9 hours ago
If I hear another word about how bad of a person he was and you don't know if he's in heaven or hell, you'll be able to find out, cause I'll send you there
Glorious.
Unfortunately (or is it fortunately?), people in my country are too polite to do that sort of thing. Also, no one gave speeches during burial anyway.
[–]Lothens 0 points1 point2 points 7 hours ago
Here the visitations are typically held at funeral homes, and led by a religious leader chosen by the family. They typically give a speech, some kind of uplifting thing. This guy though, I've known this pastor since I was little, his daughter and I were in the same grade in school growing up, and I knew already he was a douchebag...never did I know he was THAT big of a douche. Just glad this old country boy stood up and said something...
[–]great_gape 2 points3 points4 points 13 hours ago
Ah yes the one day when both Christians and Atheists can come together as one to hate all Muslims.
[–]Sally_4_Jesus 11 points12 points13 points 1 day ago
replace "religion" with "imperialism"
[–]mrwormburn -5 points-4 points-3 points 21 hours ago*
Why are you getting downvoted?! Wtf!? Even here, there are many ignorant people. Perhaps your name? Probably confusing, and strawmaning, your comment for some "conspiracy theorist" demonization they posses. This country is very imperialist; that's a FACT!
Stop possessing demons people! ;)
EDIT: SAlly's comment was at -7 when I saw it, and now mine is at -3? Oh you guys... -___-
[–]superdude4agze -4 points-3 points-2 points 15 hours ago
Because religion is still the root. With out it much imperialism disappears. The Christian Crusades, the Thirty Years' War, etc etc.
[–]fistofjohnwayne 1 point2 points3 points 13 hours ago
Those aren't examples of imperialism.
[–]Kind_Of_A_Dick -1 points0 points1 point 14 hours ago
We would've found other reasons. Religion was just the convenient tool wielded towards an end.
[–]superdude4agze -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 hours ago
Possibly, but that is a statement that is impossible for you to prove and therefore moot.
[–]Kind_Of_A_Dick 1 point2 points3 points 11 hours ago
As is yours. Point?
[–]billmalarky 3 points4 points5 points 22 hours ago
Religion may have had something to do with being able to convince suckers to off themselves to propagate an agenda (72 virgins ftw), but do we really believe that religion was the ultimate driving force behind the 9/11 attacks?
I mean COME ON people. We all know it was an inside job!
/s tag regarding second part to prevent poe's law, but I am serious about the first question.
[–]BeadleBelfry 1 point2 points3 points 21 hours ago
Honestly. This photo is damned near insulting, given how base-level it is. I mean, I have as many issues with Islam as everybody else on this board, but if we only want to blame 9/11 on this religion because we want something to nail that religion with, we're doing a pretty shit job. You don't need to twist the history to get at Islam, gentleman.
[–]mrwormburn -6 points-5 points-4 points 21 hours ago*
We do, and lately, I've been pissed that certain podcasts I once respected are trying to marginalize "conspiracy nuts" by talking about all these dumb, fish-in-barrel conspiracies that noone would believe. I don't like it; they are strawmaning the shit out of conspiracy theories that have good skeptical reasons behind them.
EDIT: People need to stop downvoting this, and read what I've written below. It's easier to simply dismiss, huh?
[–]afropologist 2 points3 points4 points 19 hours ago
Like?
[–]mrwormburn 0 points1 point2 points 8 hours ago
Jesus, the little boy who asks "why?"
I am not going to expound on this here, my favorite is "A Noble Lie."
Bombs that are physically too small to blow up a building from the outside. Witnesses that commit suicide by torturing themselves before slitting their throats and shooting themselves. I'm starting, so I'll digress.
Just watch it, and you can make up your own mind. OKC was an inside job!
[–]mrwormburn 1 point2 points3 points 7 hours ago
Also, just annoyingly impractical things like on Skeptics Guide to the Universe #372; the latest one:
They were saying something like "conspiracy nuts are saying that the government is "listening" to you over the new smart meters." The used the literal word "listening" and connoted audio, and conveniently ignored that this isn't the concern at all.
The actual, and real, concern is that the power company can read the energy signatures from your appliances and know what you have inside your home. They can know when you are home, if you are home, and more or less gain insight as to how you live your PERSONAL life.
Goodbye privacy, you are a relic of the 20th century.
[–]Ikkongino 3 points4 points5 points 15 hours ago
Imagen a world where the US did not interfere with middle-eastern politics by routinely blocking trade, supplying weapons and overthrowing leaders and thereby making enough enemies among the people for an act like the one being referenced in the picture to be motivated.
9/11 was never motivated by religion. It sure helps if the suicide pilot thinks he will go to heaven, but 9/11 was inevitable, religion or no.
[–]Chunkypack 3 points4 points5 points 22 hours ago
I always think we should see a few flying cars around as well when I see this picture. I imagine science might have have progressed a little further without religion.
Maybe we could've had some super mechanical limbs. Might have even moved onto another planet.
But then maybe it wouldn't have progressed at all and we all live in Mad Max territory
[–]hat678 4 points5 points6 points 17 hours ago
Stem cell research is one of many fields that comes to mind. We had a religious nut for president who deliberately stifled this branch of scientific research.
Religion is bad for society when it actively hinders progress.
[–]tumescentpie 3 points4 points5 points 16 hours ago
It is a cast... There was a point at which society was probably fragile and needed something to protect it and gather people together and stop them from eating pigs and raping and pillaging. But we have long out grown that cast and we will atrophy the longer we wear it.
[–]Mosrhun 1 point2 points3 points 20 hours ago
The bottom line is that it was a terrible event no matter the cause. Still feels like it happened yesterday.
[–]Krissam 1 point2 points3 points 17 hours ago
It's easy if you try.
[–]Mechzx 0 points1 point2 points 17 hours ago
Humans are cruel by nature. If it wasn't caused by religion it would have been caused by something else.
[–]antaresiv 0 points1 point2 points 16 hours ago
Indeed, September 11 is tomorrow and it will be September 11 for everyone regardless of nationality.
[–]abillonfire 1 point2 points3 points 16 hours ago
To be honest I'd rather stay in this world where religion exists, if time suddenly re winded itself and civilization started again but this is with no religion we'd be in a completely different world right now. It might be a better one with flying cars and reusable fuel etc or there's a chance it might be even worse then it is now, we might not even be here, perhaps lots of different series of events would of happened that didn't happen in this world. Perhaps those events led to terrible things that caused nuclear war or worse. I'd rather not risk it and just say we should be happy how we are now
[–]tumescentpie 0 points1 point2 points 16 hours ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRhq-yO1KN8
[–]fecesfacial 0 points1 point2 points 16 hours ago
People would still find a reason to kill each other. Don't be naive.
[–]neurosin 0 points1 point2 points 15 hours ago
And my birthday might mean something again...
[–]winto_bungle 1 point2 points3 points 15 hours ago
I am looking forward to the annual BBC memorial programme, but this year just as it starts they are going to cut away to Ryan Seacrest interviewing a lampost.
I can't wait.
[–]science_diction 0 points1 point2 points 14 hours ago
Really? I'll remember it as the day when the intelligence community completely failed even after they were aware bin Laden was going to attack. This should have been even more evident since America was the one who supported the mujahadeen against the Soviet Union back in the 80s. It should have been even more evident since they had already bombed the basement three times by this point, bombed a battleship, and bombed embassies in Africa. These were the same people who, under the same religion, had no problem taking our guns and our military training to fight the Russians. Hmm... it's almost like religion was a way for them to organize under one banner... It's almost like they are radical rebels who want complete indepedence from everyone and we honestly wouldn't even give a shit about their pile of crap land if it it wasn't an OPEC country.
It's basically like you're oversimplifying a complex issue about 30 years in the making and involving a war of limited resources and making it entirely about religion.
But, that can be!
[–]RavixTheDreamer 0 points1 point2 points 2 hours ago
America is corrupt. Religion is corrupt. The system is broken. The sheep are none the wiser, and they still live their lives in ignorant bliss. We need an overhaul, America. Whether it comes in the hands of politicians or rebels is the question.
[–]TrickOrTreater -1 points0 points1 point 14 hours ago
Yep. Happy Birthday to me.
[–]elmaschingon 0 points1 point2 points 14 hours ago
Posted this on my wall and had a few likes from some pretty religious friends of mine. I'm thinking they are responding to the cross created by the light and not by the text. Or could that text have a double meaning I'm unaware of?
[–]Apollokubitz -1 points0 points1 point 12 hours ago
lol I am Flying to Utah tomorrow, home of the Mormon, and on Sept. 11th... With me luck UGH, don't worry i wouldn't go here on my own, its for work, ill only be there a week. it is sure going to be a HUGE difference from Portland OR.
Edit: Typo's
[–]Kindoalkun -1 points0 points1 point 12 hours ago
Actually, the picture should be of a flat plain with no buildings, since in a world without religion all of the architecture directly sponsored or inspired by religion would not exist, setting engineering back hundreds if not thousands of years.
[–]xdzgor 0 points1 point2 points 11 hours ago
That's actually pretty hard to know. In place of those religiously inspired buildings, we may have space elevators and interplanetary space portals - being that science was left unfettered by the shackles of centuries of religion oppression.
[–]Amryxx 0 points1 point2 points 9 hours ago
Science may not even develop without the religious "oppression".
[–]xdzgor 0 points1 point2 points 2 hours ago
I doubt that. And no need to put oppression in quotes. It was real.
[–]Amryxx 0 points1 point2 points 1 hour ago
Then perhaps a journey into the past to explore the various advances in science made in the name of religion would be in order.
[–]princetrunks 1 point2 points3 points 11 hours ago
Just barely started my senior year in high school during that day. Being from eastern Long Island, I saw classmates dropping to the ground in tears hearing their mom, dad, or other family member was killed. 600 people from my area were murdered that day...and being a senior in high school, a bunch of my friends then got involved in the Afghan War and the out-of-context Iraq war that followed. My fiancee's father was working a block away that day. He went outside to evacuate Manhattan and he'd hear what sounded like watermelons hitting the ground...thing is, it wasn't watermelons.
I lucked out and didn't lose any close family or friends from that day but I of course wanted to pay my respects to those who died since some were the parents of my fellow classmates. I joined in the "American flag on everything" movement that happened during the first few weeks after the attack. It was a sign of nationalism and solidarity. I'd wear an American flag bandanna; both in the Asian styled way and the american biker way when I'd go into school.
A few days after the attack, there was a school assembly at my HS, Newfield High School . We thought we were going to get a counselling session to help deal with the attacks, and the fact that we were directly affected by it...instead it was just a meeting to tell the students that dress codes are now to be enforced by force. Mind you, this is a public school and had no uniforms but then created retarded rules like no hats, hair bands and bandannas. So, me an honor's student wearing an american flag bandanna in honor of those died, while sitting at this assembly, almost got jumped by 3 security guards for wearing said bandanna.
That event not only help me throw away the concept of religion after seeing first hand the stupidity it brings...but I also gave up the concept of nationalism. Both are forces of weak minded people who can't think for themselves and whom would commit such horrible crimes if either mindless concept drove their lives.
[–]Jombo65 0 points1 point2 points 11 hours ago
Technically, pilgrims wouldn't have come to the Americas seeking religious freedom, so they still may not exist...
[–]krantz17 0 points1 point2 points 11 hours ago
"If political and economical stress is enough to drive people to fly planes into buildings where are the Tibetan suicide bombers?"-Sam Harris
I probably messed up the exact words but you get the point.
Probably because Tibetans don't have the same sort of material and financial backers like Hamas. They already have the "suicide" part of the populace.
Good grief.
First of all, assuming that the world would be at peace (or at least, that the Twin Towers will remain standing) without religion is a naive and idiotic simplification of an exceedingly complicated scenario. Religion has both positive and negative implications towards humanity as a whole.
And second, implying that the world will be at peace without religion is silly; does greed disappear without religion? How about racism and other forms of hatred?
[–]darkangelx 0 points1 point2 points 5 hours ago
No, but its a damn good start.
What's the point in abolishing religion when all the evils supposedly caused by it still remains?
[–]darkangelx 0 points1 point2 points 1 hour ago
Because then the republican party wont be able to be cunts to gays and women. At least they wont have an excuse to.
[–]Arthur_Vandelay 0 points1 point2 points 5 hours ago
This seems just a bit nationalistic. How is it we have no problem invoking the September 11th attacks for an emotional appeal to rally against irrationality but make no mention of other historic atrocities?
If you look to your country as something good or moral because as citizens we have certain rights and freedoms, you have simply replaced God with the State.
Why not imagine a world without governments?
[–]HahGHEEEEY 0 points1 point2 points 4 hours ago
In a world without religion there would more likely be a lot more buildings, tech, cleaner air, healthier seas, etc. than shown in this picture.
[–]alittler 0 points1 point2 points 2 hours ago
Tomorrow we are reminded that 3,000 citizens is not that big a deal
[–]NWCtim 0 points1 point2 points 1 hour ago
I like how the sunlight between the towers makes a cross.
[–]blushingtart 1 point2 points3 points 1 day ago
I'm just gonna say this here because I've been thinking it a lot lately. I'm so saddened when people use September 11th as a vehicle for their own cause. There are a great number of emotions involved with the tragedy and it's manipulative and disrespectful to relate 9/11 to every fucking issue out there. Maybe that's not at all what you intended. But a lot of people say with a sweep of their hand that 9/11 is about the evils of A, B, or C.
[–]superpastaaisle 2 points3 points4 points 18 hours ago
Really? Do you really think that humans wouldn't just find some other reason to kill each other if religion didn't exist?
[–]hat678 1 point2 points3 points 17 hours ago
Mostly, no, considering this is the one big thing that can get people to scrap their moral reasoning and band together in gangs and murder other gangs.
[–]Lothens -1 points0 points1 point 16 hours ago
Don't make me explain why this has nothing to do with religion again...
[–]winto_bungle 0 points1 point2 points 15 hours ago
Oh, please do. I'd like to see you achieve that.
And, as always, don't forget:
Welcome to r/atheism, the web's largest atheist forum. All topics related to atheism, agnosticism and secular living are welcome here.
[–]Lothens 0 points1 point2 points 15 hours ago
Yes, all topics related to atheism, etc, etc, so on, so forth. Unless they're false.
I've already achieved this once, and I suppose I'll have to do it again, or possibly dig up my old comment on the original of this repost. Aaaaand I did just that:
[–]Lothens 47 points 21 days ago The attacks on Sept. 11th 2001 were not because of Religion. It wasn't our differing faiths that led the middle eastern extremists to attack the towers. It wasn't that they were taught that we are evil BECAUSE we believe different things... It was because we were occupying land within their country for decades. We had military bases and military troops stationed there for absolutely no reason other than we wanted to build military bases and station troops there. They told us to our face that they did NOT want us to be there. We ignored them, and stayed. They finally decided that talking to us like adults wasn't working, so they started talking in a language that our government leaders understand. If China suddenly started building military bases and stationing troops on U.S. soil, what do you think might happen?
[–]Lothens 47 points 21 days ago
The attacks on Sept. 11th 2001 were not because of Religion. It wasn't our differing faiths that led the middle eastern extremists to attack the towers. It wasn't that they were taught that we are evil BECAUSE we believe different things...
It was because we were occupying land within their country for decades. We had military bases and military troops stationed there for absolutely no reason other than we wanted to build military bases and station troops there. They told us to our face that they did NOT want us to be there. We ignored them, and stayed. They finally decided that talking to us like adults wasn't working, so they started talking in a language that our government leaders understand.
If China suddenly started building military bases and stationing troops on U.S. soil, what do you think might happen?
So there, since you're so adamant that I explain it a second time, I have. I originally had to explain this a few different times to a few different people as well, after posting this original comment almost a month back. I won't be doing that this time. Take it for what it is - if you can't handle this type of honesty, I'm sorry, but I won't explain it further.
I am not sure anyone is claiming religion was the only reason (although the OP's wording might suggest otherwise, in which case I disagree with him), but to say religion is not a factor, no matter how small, is false.
It may not have been any factor to those behind the attacks, but you can seriously tell me that those few who actually carried out the attacks were not religiously incentivised? Or that the Islamic factor wasn't important when getting the US public on board for a war on terror?
And that is enough for a post here.
However, I am more than happy for you to point out the more important factors and reasons behind the attacks, and every single person here should know that too. So you get an upvote from me.
[–]Lothens 0 points1 point2 points 10 hours ago
Well certainly religion played a minor role in the events - for example, the idea of sacrificing one's life to become a martyr in the Islamic faith, in this case by hijacking and flying planes into buildings, was the method of choice. The belief that the hijackers would be rewarded after their death in this fashion is purely based on religious belief. The reasons for performing these acts weren't religious in nature, however.
Even though we were led to believe that they were doesn't change that simple fact.
[–]winto_bungle 0 points1 point2 points 10 hours ago
Then religion is involved, as small as it may be, and therefore is justified to be posted here, even if the nature of this exact post is a bit off.
Would the hijackers have sacrificed themselves without an afterlife to go to?
Of course not, not without some kind of mental disorder. It takes religion to get otherwise rational people to do irrational things.
It could be argued, however, that simply by believing in a particular religion they already had a mental disorder.
[–]winto_bungle 0 points1 point2 points 9 hours ago
Then the post is more than justified in being here.
[–]Lothens 0 points1 point2 points 9 hours ago
I still disagree, because the MOTIVE for the act had absolutely nothing to do with religion. It was over territory, and land disputes.
[–]winto_bungle 0 points1 point2 points 8 hours ago
So we only allow posts where the motive for any actions are religious? That's odd, not seen that anywhere.
All topics related to atheism, agnosticism and secular living are welcome here.
If religion is involved in any way then it is within the rules of the page. The rules are right there, it's fairly clear.
[–]Icomefromb 0 points1 point2 points 14 hours ago
Imagine all the people. Living life in peace.. -John Lennon
[–]asterisms -3 points-2 points-1 points 14 hours ago
"Imagine a world without retards" - Asterisms
You're all beyond fucking retarded if you actually believe the Muslims did 9/11
[–]deebosbike -1 points0 points1 point 18 hours ago
religion had nothing to do with it.
religion was the patsy.
[–]Krissam 3 points4 points5 points 17 hours ago
Well, Some may say it had nothing to do with religion, but I'm guessing it's a bit easier to convince someone to commit suicide if they think they're rewarded with 72 wives to keep for all eternity in the afterlife.
[–]Sir_Ruje -1 points0 points1 point 16 hours ago
Dude, what the hell? Not cool. Im not religious but that is just sick.
[–]tyrotio -1 points0 points1 point 14 hours ago
I like how you post a picture of the Twin Towers when trying to make a point about there being no religion in the world yet fail to understand that the U.S.A. was built by people seeking religious freedom from England. So if there was no religion then, then we wouldn't be here today, would we? Now you can try and argue that you drew an arbitrary line in our historical timeline right before the events of 9/11, but what's the purpose of that? Every instance or occurrence serves purpose to educate and inform people of coming generations and people of the current generation.
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
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[–]chuckknucka 14 points15 points16 points ago
[–]nik27 1 point2 points3 points ago
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[–]IpodCoffee 0 points1 point2 points ago
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