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top 200 commentsshow all 396

[–]sebfaure 201 points202 points ago

Good call:

"When the history of the Afghan resistance movement is written, Mr. Bin Laden's own contribution to the mujahedin - and the indirect result of his training and assistance - may turn out to be a turning-point in the recent history of militant fundamentalism..."

[–]riptide13 85 points86 points ago

And the award for understatement of the century goes to... Robert Fisk!

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]Drawen 4 points5 points ago

I like Robert Fisk's name (Fisk = Fish in Swedish)

[–]twistedfishes 1 point2 points ago

I like Robert Fisk as well, he has produced some fantastic articles and his book "The great war for civilization: Conquest of the middle east" is excellent.

[–]Izawwlgood 104 points105 points ago

We have the shortest memories.

[–]Clearly_Im_lying 145 points146 points ago

Good guy OP, gives zoomed in pictures so we can read the article.

Good find, DBM.

[–]BluSilver 355 points356 points ago

For those who don't want to read it from the picture

Anti-Soviet warrior puts his army on the road to peace

OSAMA Bin Laden sat in his gold fringed robe, guarded by the loyal Arab mujahedin who fought alongside him in Afghanistan. Bearded, taciturn figures — unarmed, but never more than a few yards from the man who recruited them, trained them and then dispatched them to destroy the Soviet army — they watched unsmiling as the Sudanese villagers of Almatig lined up to thank the Saudi businessman who is about to complete the highway linking their homes to Khartoum for the first time in history. With his high cheekbones, narrow eyes and long brown robe, Mr. Bin Laden looks every inch the mountain warrior of mujahedin legend. Chadored children danced in front of him, preachers acknowledged his wisdom. “We have been waiting for this road through all the revolutions in Sudan," a sheik he said. “We waited until we had given up on everybody — and then Osama Bin Laden came along.”

Outside Sudan, Mr. Bin Laden is not regarded with quite such high esteem. The Egyptian press claims he brought hundreds of former Arab fighters back to Sudan from Afghanistan, while the Western embassy circuit in Khartoum has suggested that some of the “Afghans” whom this Saudi entrepreneur flew to Sudan are now busy training for further jihad wars in Algeria, Tunisia and Egypt. Mr. Bin Laden is well aware of this. “The rubbish of the media and the embassies,” he calls it. “I am a construction engineer and an agriculturalist. If I had training camps here in Sudan, I couldn’t possibly do this job.”

And “this job” is certainly an ambitious one: a brand-new highway stretching all the way from Khartoum to Port Sudan, a distance of 1,200km (745 miles) on the old road, now shortened to 800km by the new Bin Laden route that will turn the coastal run from the capital into a mere day’s journey. Into a country that is despised by Saudi Arabia for its support of Saddam Hussein in the Gulf war almost as much as it is condemned by the United States, Mr. Bin Laden has brought the very construction equipment that he used only five years ago to build the guerrilla trails of Afghanistan.

He is a shy man. Maintaining a home in Khartoum and only a small apartment in his home city of Jeddah, he is married — with four wives — but wary of the press. His interview with the Independent was the first he has ever given to a Western journalist, and he initially refused to talk about Afghanistan, sitting silently on a chair at the back of a makeshift tent, brushing his teeth in the Arab fashion with a stick of miswak wood. But talk he eventually did about a war which he helped to win for the Afghan mujahedin: “What I lived In two years there, I could not have lived in a hundred years elsewhere,” he said.

When the history of the Afghan resistance movement is written, Mr. Bin Laden’s own contribution to the mujahedin — and the indirect result of his training and assistance — may turn out to be a turning-point in the recent history of militant fundamentalism; even if, today, he tries to minimize his role “When the invasion of Afghanistan started, I was enraged and went there at once — I arrived within days, before the end of 1979," he Said. "Yes, I fought there, but my fellow Muslims did much more than I. Many of them died and I am still alive.”

Within months, however, Mr. Bin Laden was sending Arab fighters — Egyptians, Algerians, Lebanese, Kuwaitis, Turks and Tunisians — into Afghanistan; “not hundreds but thousands,” he said. He supported them with weapons and his own construction equipment. Along with his Iraqi engineer, Mohamed Saad — who is now building the Port Sudan road — Mr. Bin laden blasted massive tunnels into the Zazi mountains of Bakhtiar province for guerrilla hospitals and arms dumps, then cut a mujahedin trail across the country to within 15 miles of Kabul.

“No, I was never afraid of death. As Muslims, we believe that when we die, we go to heaven. Before a battle, God sends us seqina, tranquility.

“Once I was only 30 meters from the Russians and they were trying to capture me. I was under bombardment but I was so peaceful in my heart that I fell asleep. This experience has been written about in earliest books. I saw a 120 mm mortar shell land in front of me, but it did not blow up. Four more bombs were dropped from a Russian plane on our headquarters but they did not explode. We beat the Soviet Union. The Russians fled.”

But what of the Arab mujahedin whom he took to Afghanistan — members of a guerrilla army who were also encouraged and armed by the United States — and who were forgotten when that war was over? “Personally neither I nor my brothers saw evidence of American help. When my mujahedin were victorious and the Russians were driven out, differences started [between the guerrilla movements] so I returned to road construction in Taif and Abha. I brought back the equipment I had used to build tunnels and roads for the mujahedin in Afghanistan. Yes, I helped some of my comrades to come here to Sudan after the war.”

How many? Osama Bin Laden shakes his head. “I don’t want to say. But they are here now with me, they are working right here, building this road to Port Sudan.” I told him that Bosnian Muslim fighters in the Bosnian town of Travnik had mentioned his name to me, “I feel the same about Bosnia,” he said. “But the situation here does not provide the same opportunities as Afghanistan. A small number of mujahedin have gone to fight in Bosnia-Herzegovina but the Croats won’t allow the mujahedin in through Croatia as the Pakistanis did with Afghanistan.”

Thus did Mr. Bin laden reflect upon jihad while his former fellow combatants looked on. Was it not a little bit anti-climactic for them, I asked, to fight the Russians and end up road-building in Sudan? “They like this work and so do I. This is a great plan which we are achieving for the people here, it helps the Muslims and improves their lives.”

His Bin laden company — not to be confused with the larger construction business run by his cousins — is paid in Sudanese currency which is then used to purchase sesame and other products for export; profits are clearly not Mr. Bin Laden’s top priority.

How did he feel about Algeria, I asked? But a man in a green suit calling himself Mohamed Moussa — he claimed to be Nigerian although he was a Sudanese security officer — tapped me on the arm. “You have asked more than enough questions,” he said. At which Mr. bin Laden went off to inspect his new road.

[–]H2Awesome 40 points41 points ago

did you just write that out? Omg you might be my new favourite person.

[–]BluSilver 78 points79 points ago

Yes, Yes I did...

[–]BluSilver 12 points13 points ago

Well Hell, I wish I had found that first...

I tried One Note's OCR... but that failed. So I just typed it all out.

[–]ipod_leech 1 point2 points ago

You'd think today (2012) there would be a better way to do this, instead we still do it like it's 1990.

[–]lestratege 2 points3 points ago

I just googled the title: "anti-soviet warrior puts his army on the road to peace"

[–]Timthos 10 points11 points ago

What's your WPM?

[–]GoodGuyGuitar 54 points55 points ago

3

[–]Deekzlol 5 points6 points ago

I was gonna give you an upvote but then it took me like eight minutes just to write this sentance and I lost interest.

[–]TheTyMan 5 points6 points ago

Cheers.

[–]DerFelix 3 points4 points ago

And now do a TL DR!

[–]_Wolfos 6 points7 points ago

TL;DR Osama Bin Laden fights Soviet Union and upon victory, starts building roads with his army.

[–]CecilThunder 0 points1 point ago

Holy shit you are a hero.

[–]itsallaboutthefun 0 points1 point ago

OCR?

[–]purpleidea 0 points1 point ago

Came here looking for this. Much appreciated!

[–]thedeadmaiden 40 points41 points ago

At first I was like "Oh geez... 1993! This OP is just a kid! What is he like 15?" Then I did the math... Now I feel old. I'll never get use to this.

[–]NewAlt 15 points16 points ago

I thought he was around 8. I have t-shirts older than him. I hate reddit sometimes. All reminding me of my impending mortality and shit.

[–]Cerubellum 0 points1 point ago

Actually your mortality isn't impending - that would imply you aren't mortal now. No, rest assured that you are, and will be until you die, mortal.

[–]JulezM 2 points3 points ago

For me it's the occasional gray hair ... turning into an everyday occurrence. It starts slow and then one day BAM, 5 or 6 of them at once. Mortality blows.

[–]tigerx5 30 points31 points ago

Watch the James Bond movie The Living Daylights

[–]esparza74 12 points13 points ago

Osama Cameo?

[–]tigerx5 28 points29 points ago

It does not mention Osama by name but portrays him as an Afghan hero.

[–]esparza74 6 points7 points ago

I'll have to watch.

[–]teddy_picker 0 points1 point ago

Does it? I know Bond works with a member of the Mujahideen but has it really got anything to do with Osama?

[–]AngryRedHerring 0 points1 point ago

...And the same guy who played him in Living Daylights basically played him again in True Lies.

[–]lestratege 1 point2 points ago

More like based on Massoud

[–]Big-Baby-Jesus 262 points263 points ago

Remember in Rambo 3 when Rambo talks about how the mujahadin are the most tenacious fighters in the world, and how when one generation dies their sons will continue the fight forever (against the dirty commies)?

The people he's talking about are now called Al Qaeda and The Taliban.

[–]lolmonger 211 points212 points ago

Ehhhh, Not entirely or exclusively.

The United States overwhelmingly supported the Northern Alliance, particularly Ahmad Shah Massoud, and the Taliban didn't exist during the Soviet occupation or its immediate aftermath.

(You can make arguments for Gulbuddin's Hezb-i-Islami fighters breaking away being the 'start' of the Taliban, but I would argue for those Pashtuns that got support from the Pakistani ISI being much more responsible for the ultimate organization)

Osama bin Laden was part of a complement to anti-Soviet forces called the 'Afghan Arabs' and while he did go on to found al-Quaida, the notion that the U.S. had anything to do with him, or with the Afghan Arabs in a significant way (or a way at all) is incredibly disputatious.

In fact, the Taliban and Northern Alliance fought a pretty brutal civil war in the 90s after the Soviet conflict, wherein we basically left our former allies to fend for themselves, the result being a Taliban dominated government able to shelter men like Osama bin Laden, kill men like Ahmad Shah Massoud, and enable something like the 9/11 attacks.

All the money and time we're putting into Karzai's Afghanistan now is so we don't make the same mistake twice. It'd be terrible to see him swinging from a streetlamp like Najibullah.

[–]Big-Baby-Jesus 50 points51 points ago

You know your stuff. My only comment is that the Pushtuns who were supported by the ISI were also being indirectly supported by the US. I met a guy who drove trucks full of Stinger missiles across Pakistan. They would hand them off to Afghans a mile on the Pakistan side of the border. That way, US politicians could honestly say that we were not bringing weapons into Afghanistan.

[–]lolmonger 27 points28 points ago

I mean, the CIA and the ISI have never (and certainly aren't now) "friends" or anything.

The Pakistanis have done all sorts of shit and trusted all sorts of people, and as a bombing at the ISI headquarters in Rawalpindi, the Taliban marching on Islamabad, and the attack (4 hours without being repelled!) on the naval base at Mehran are hopefully showing them, giving lots and lots of money to Islamists the U.S. was wary about is a bad fucking long term plan.

The only two instances you can say the U.S. supported any Afghan that's now a problem are Gulbuddin Hekmatyar - and fucking no one, not even the Iranians, want anything to do with that incompetent anymore, and Jallaluddin Haqqani; in his case, we just thought our money would always be enough money. That bet worked with nearly everyone else; the ANA and ANP have had more than a few incidents of Taliban infiltration, but on the whole, given a few years time, I think the same thing will happen with them as with Iraq's armed forces, and we'll be able to get out of there for good.

[–]ukiyoe 47 points48 points ago

This is just like Metal Gear Solid 4, down to the part where I don't understand what's going on.

[–]utunga 6 points7 points ago

It's true that a CIA spokesperson will later be able state, “For the record, you should know that the CIA never employed, paid, or maintained any relationship whatsoever with bin Laden.” however in June 2001 a UPI article described the relationship like this Bin Laden worked closely with Saudi, Pakistani, and US intelligence services to recruit mujaheddin from many Muslim countries..

I don't think it was regarded as a huge secret that the Saudi's and the US were funneling huge sums of money (anyone seen Charlie Wilson's war) through the ISI and into the hands of Mujahideen definitely including Bin Laden. Which of course ties in with the trucks of stinger missiles handed over on the Pakistani side of the border (and then crossing the border with or without the knowledge of the Pakistani ISI what do you think?).

Both CIA and Bin Laden were raising significant funds for Afghanistan in the US between 1986-1993 and these operations often overlapped and involved FBI and CIA informants/assets working closely with people in Bin Laden's organisation (later dubbed Al Qaeda).

There is also the fact that the initial invasion of Afghanistan was a largely CIA directed operation, and striking tactically and militarily for the rapidity of its success. That was not just about military hardware this was about people on the ground with inside knowledge of how things work there.

We may note that the Taliban, however, were never part of ISI or CIA funded or supported operations. And interestingly a year before the invasion they managed to just about end opium production in this region, putting at significant risk a major multi-multi billion dollar drug running operation which had historically always had ties to people with ties to the CIA. US Allegedly Helps Turn Soviet Soldiers Fighting in Afghanistan into Drug Addicts, Allen Stanford, American Drug Lord

Going back in time a little bit, we also have to remember that six of the twenty 9/11 hijackers were on the terrorist watch list but somehow allowed to fly. Who does that? Is it perhaps related to the Visa issuing overrides which forces 'higher up in government' would occasionally push on to (sometimes unwilling) US consular officials when Mujahideen or later 'islamist radical' linked individuals had a need to travel to regions where they could further the interests of the US - such as in Kosovo or Georgia or maybe even Syria. Michael Springmann, head US consular official in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, claims - as a 'whistleblower' coming forward after 9/11 - he is “repeatedly ordered… to issue [more than 100] visas to unqualified applicants.” He turns them down, but is repeatedly overruled by superiors..

tl;dr Who knows what it all means... but claiming as you seem so keen to do, that the CIA and the ISI are not linked at all is really not helping.

[–]tomdarch 1 point2 points ago

There's another layer to all of this, which is the use of Afghanistan as a proxy battleground. Historically, Russia and the UK were the global players. More recently (after the Soviet withdrawal) the local players have been Iran, Pakistan and India (with China playing some role.)

When we ask, "Why has Afghanistan been such a mess for so long?" Part of the answer is that it sucks to be a bunch of pawns in other people's chess games.

[–]CannibalHolocaust 0 points1 point ago

I thought the CIA funded the Mujahideen via the ISI? They gave them money to buy weapons from China which they smuggled into Afghanistan.

[–]shagginflies 6 points7 points ago

Have you read Ghost Wars by Steve Coll? Great book.

[–]Afg4Life 29 points30 points ago

Afghan here, absolutely spot on perfect explanation.

[–]he_eats_da_poo_poo 5 points6 points ago

Never would have guessed without the username.

[–]lolmonger 1 point2 points ago

Go find Massoud's son and install him as president, get rid of that fucking Popalzai Hamid - my brother ran fucking cocaine and got killed for it - Karzai, and machine gun whoever our guys aren't able to, mkaaay?

I jest, but, I wish the Afghans all the luck in the world over the next 30 years.

[–]bugzrrad 0 points1 point ago

what is it like to be a comfy scarf? do an IAMA!!!!

[–]joker_RED 8 points9 points ago

Just followed up on your post and read up on Massoud.

Holy shit. What a huge fucking hero.

[–]lolmonger 1 point2 points ago

He tried warning us, he tried helping us; we trusted the Pakistanis, they hated him. The Pakistanis trusted the Taliban; they sheltered al-Quaida and murdered Ahmad Shah Massoud, tantamount to a green light for the 9/11 hijackers - - for all the dollars we've given Musharraf, Pasha, and Kiyani, we couldn't even buy half a Massoud.

Up 'til his dying day, he did everything he could to try and stop the Taliban on the battlefield, Warn the world and particularly the U.S. about Pakistan, even going so far as to contact the DoD

Whenever you heard Bush saying 'We need to fight them there so we don't have problems here', or Obama saying 'We need to secure a future for the people of Afghanistan', understand that they're talking about the mission plan laid out by the Lion.

Of all the figures you can romanticize in history, he's one of the easiest because the legend is so close to the reality.

[–]he_eats_da_poo_poo 1 point2 points ago

While he is considered a national hero in Afghanistan, there are plenty of people who despise him.

[–]huffglueinstead 3 points4 points ago

It is also important to note, when making a distinction between the Taliban and al Qaeda, that at the time this article was written and up until 1996 when the Taliban had really taken control of Afghanistan, bin Laden was living in exile in Sudan. In 1993 he was regarded as a productive member of Sudanese society, pumping money into their economy and building infrastructure while also recruiting and training members of al Qaeda.

[–]tomdarch 2 points3 points ago

And unwelcome back in Saudi Arabia - one of his overarching goals was to make SA even more puritanical.

[–]deidru 0 points1 point ago

Wow. Thank you. I've never really looked into the details about this stuff, but really is quite amazing. Thank you for also making it unbiased.

[–]waxoff 1 point2 points ago

He wasn't just hung from a streetlamp. He was tortured to death. They dragged him through the streets behind a truck and castrated him.

[–]Kangaroo__Court 0 points1 point ago

WHATTTTTTTTTTT?

The United States overwhelmingly supported the Northern Alliance, particularly Ahmad Shah Massoud

Most (essentially all) of the US funding went through the ISI and ended up in the hands of people Hekmatyar and Haqqani, ie Pashtuns that the ISI supported. Funding and arms did get its way to Massoud but he was never the priority. In fact, he got his Stingers (only 8 total!) well after everyone else got theirs.

The US's decision not to favor Massoud and to prioritize ISI chosen candidates was a big mistake in my opinion. Massoud seemed to be the cleverest and most tolerant of the warlords. However, he was Tajiki and was a minority in the country. He also spoke Persian and seemed to work well with Iran. Which is exactly why he was not favored by the US. The Europeans seemed to like him more but they were not putting the money down that the US and Saudi Arabia was, and this support was overwhelmingly favoring Pashtun armies and leaders who were close to the ISI.

You mention stuff like this in another post, so what was your motivation to say the line above?

[–]Agasti 4 points5 points ago

The US government has pulled a legendary scam of historical proportions on the billions that populate today's world.

My only hope is that one day the truth will be uncovered, and the real terrorists will be revealed. At least so that some people will understand that the popular opinion is definitely not necessarily the right one.

[–]auntacid 18 points19 points ago

The words in that article describe a good man and perhaps to some, a hero... good times...

[–]x_yz_x_yz 66 points67 points ago

If the USSR had defeated the Muhajaden, they would have created a modern secular state, instead of the crackpot Taliban state that now exists where 8 year old girls get married off to 40 year old men, or boys are punished for flying kites. Bin Laden was a villian, then and now. Except that back then, his villany was useful to the US.

[–]the_goat_boy 37 points38 points ago

It's a controversial opinion, but I too believe it would have been better off for the Soviets to take control of Afghanistan and for the Americans to not interfere.

[–]XeroXenith 11 points12 points ago

Why would it not be another North Korea? (Genuine question.)

[–]x_yz_x_yz 14 points15 points ago

It's speculation, but the USSR would have probably used its own society as a template for what it had in mind for Afghanistan. The USSR had big problems in the 70's and 80's but it was still a far cry from the North Korea of the 21st century. I don't expect they would have intentionally created a polity where the lynchpin was an extreme personality cult around a despot. Such an idea wouldn't be compatible with the doctrines of communism.

The question then is, could the country have degenerated into this after the fall of the USSR? Again, speculation, but given the region's resource wealth and strategic location for pipelines, etc. I think that whatever system they came up with, wouldn't end up as poor as North Korea (which IMO is the main reason for the nature of its government and society, the poverty is so extreme you need a rigid repressive regime to hold the society together).

Edit: I'm not trying to paint the USSR as some kind of benevolent utopia.

[–]willscy 7 points8 points ago

well it's all relative, compared to N. Korea and the Taliban the USSR of the 80's was a utopia.

[–]Velken 5 points6 points ago

Well, IIRC, Afghanistan before the Taliban was a relatively progressive country, with many of the younger people adopting Western dress and ideals.

[–]Platypuskeeper 1 point2 points ago

Well, first there's a question of whether the Afghan war would've broken out in the first place without the US pulling some strings. It certainly wouldn't have gone on as long.

In the most likely scenario, you'd probably have ended up with a yet another central-Asian communist state (whether inside or outside the USSR, likely outside), which would abandon communism around 1991, but leave the same people in charge under some rather authoritarian rule. (e.g. Turkmenistan under Niyazov) With maintained close ties to Russia. (Consensual ones; Most of these central-Asian republics today have populations with a positive view of Russia, certainly more than of the USA)

The USSR would not have wanted a new North Korea. First off, they had no particular love for that 'brand' of communism. North Korea and other communist cult-of-personality dictatorships basically got their cues from Stalin(ism), while the Soviets had denounced Stalinism since Khrushchev. It would be like present-day China supporting a Maoist 'cultural revolution' in another country - something China's officially considered a mistake for the last three decades.

Add to that, these personality-cult dictators were quite unreliable (generally rather crazy) and of doubtful loyalty. Yugoslavia's Tito (not a Stalinist, but with a good amount of personality-cult) broke with the Soviets early on. Later Albania's Hoxha (Stalinist, personality-cult) did so as well. While Romania remained in the Soviet Bloc under Ceausescu (Stalinist, personality-cult), he asserted more independence than the others. North Korea itself under Kim Il Sung was even further from being a Soviet satellite state.

So there would not have been much reason either in terms of ideology or realpolitik for the USSR to have pushed for a North Korean style rule. The Soviets supported North Korea back then, as China (to a lesser extent) does now, much like the US supported quite a few dictatorships of its own, because they had to (or believed so) in order to retain their strategic influence. Not because they actually liked their system. Why choose a crazy, fickle dictator over someone more loyal - or at the very least, someone rational?

[–]lordeddardstark 3 points4 points ago

He may be a SOB but he's our SOB

[–]trtry 2 points3 points ago

Many forget the Russian went into help an Afghan socialist political party that was voted into power.

[–]hastasiempre 3 points4 points ago

As Brother Malcolm said: "The chickens are coming home to roost."

[–]rbhindepmo 0 points1 point ago

not entirely sure about that. I'd imagine that a Soviet-shaped Afghanistan would be far more similar to the Central Asian former Soviet Republics than a modern secular state. It'd be secular (probably by force of the people in power) but modern? Well, doubtful.

[–]fozzybare 0 points1 point ago

I LOVED reading Kite Runner in school. Such a good book.

[–]Froogler 3 points4 points ago

History is written by the winners. USA backed the mujahideen during the Soviet years and Osama has been painted a 'good man' because he was on their side.

He did nothing different in his later years except that the enemy changed. And you have a different version of history since then.

[–]bholly 14 points15 points ago

fwiw, Fisk is a world-renowned commentator on the Middle East (except maybe in America?) and has multiple pretty lengthy books on the subject (much of which are reprinted from his articles), at least one of which details his meetings with Bin Laden. This isn't a quirky stand-alone article.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-War-Civilisation-Conquest/dp/1400075173/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346819120&sr=8-1&keywords=robert+fisk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_War_for_Civilisation:_The_Conquest_of_the_Middle_East

[–]nervousandweird 6 points7 points ago

The Great War for Civilisation was one of the most amazing and depressing books I've ever read. Good catch, I was thinking the same thing when I saw that the article was about him.

[–]cherryjuiceandvodka 2 points3 points ago

fantastic book! not only is it amazingly illuminating, it's tremendously well written too.

[–]RageGodReed 2 points3 points ago

Fuck, i have that book. I got it for free and had a look, shat myself at its size, and put it away forever. I recognised Fisks name and checked my book case, yep still there. Looks like ill have to read it.

[–]x_yz_x_yz 2 points3 points ago

You won't regret it, trust me. It's full of war and adventure as RF reviews his life as a war reporter.

[–]x_yz_x_yz 1 point2 points ago

Yes that's an awesome book. The section on the Iran-Iraq war was quite eye-opening.

[–]Dowtchaboy 2 points3 points ago

I have had the pleasure of spending a few evenings with Bob Fisk way back - friend of a relative. Amazing stories, entertaining, witty, passionate especially about the downtrodden. The stories he told us about what he saw when he went into Iran after the fall of the Shah give me occasional nightmares, and certainly influenced his attitude to U.S. military and foreign policy. Strangely he's a technophobe - just about prepared to use a cell-phone, hates email, word processors, search engines, etc. I have not managed to read all of all his books (Middle East, Northern Ireland...). However - Bob does have a weakness- he has a reputation for allowing his passion and empathy for the underdog override his veracity.

[–]1rv 1 point2 points ago

This is the largest book I own. I must read it; it's just difficult to start a book that's nearly as big as my own head.

[–]jgoebbels 8 points9 points ago

His CIA name was Tim Osman.

[–]BeneathAnIronSky 76 points77 points ago

It continually amazes me that someone born in '93 is old enough to use the internet. Why, back in my day, etc etc

[–]XeroXenith 116 points117 points ago

Those born in '93 are 18+. Some people you see on the wider web were born post-Y2K. Now that's scary.

[–]willscy 55 points56 points ago

holy shit.

[–]wutanggrenade 69 points70 points ago

Imagine dude, some people on the internet were born after Sept 11 2001.

Blows my mother fucking mind, sorry if you read that 10 year olds

[–]ncm3t4l 73 points74 points ago

Don't apologize to those spoiled little bastards.

We had to make shit out of sticks and play outside ALL FUCKING DAY.

[–]lochlainn 31 points32 points ago

Or make shit and use sticks to play with it.

OUTSIDE ALL FUCKING DAY.

[–]JAsherP 7 points8 points ago

back in my day, we had to walk fifteen miles to use the internet, and we were happy!

[–]joemc72 6 points7 points ago

Walk?! In my day it took a half hour just to finish the handshake to GET to the internet!

Damn kids and their DSL...

[–]captainzigzag 4 points5 points ago

Kids these days reckon they're scared of terrorism. When I was a youngun, it wasn't Christmas until the IRA tried to blow you up.

[–]redrhyski 3 points4 points ago

And that's if the Soviets didn't nuke us all before we got to Christmas!

[–]Vsx 3 points4 points ago

I'm 30 and all the best memories from my childhood are from playing outside.

[–]greggram 5 points6 points ago

Witch i am happy about. Think about it.

[–]Gabe_b 9 points10 points ago

Witch? Where??? Ahhhhhhhhh!

[–]Tlingit_Raven 13 points14 points ago

The high school freshman I taught last year were 3 when 9/11 happened. They had no concept of the world before. That realization really shook me.

[–]wutanggrenade 8 points9 points ago

A world where you could smoke in restaurants and planes. Where if you were out and about and needed to make a call, you had to use a payphone. A time with no internet. A time when air conditioning was a luxury.

These people won't know and that is only 11 years ago. Imagine another decade from now

[–]carlivar 2 points3 points ago

Ehh. My parents could say the same thing about the lunar landing, or JFK getting shot, or whatever.

[–]ave0000 5 points6 points ago

[–]Ceejae 2 points3 points ago

Now realise that some people that you you see in legal hardcore porn were born in 1994.

[–]jardeon 11 points12 points ago

I remember using Trumpet Winsock right around the time he was born to use the internet. How things have changed!

[–]Dannybaker 36 points37 points ago

Nowhere except on reddit did i see people being so fucking amazed at the concept of time passing, and them getting older

[–]killacat 21 points22 points ago

It isn't that time is passing, it's how much has passed.

[–]drumthumper 18 points19 points ago

Agreed. When I was a senior in high school, my Math teacher told my class that one day we'd wake up and be 35 and wonder where the time went. We laughed at him.

Last June, I woke up and was 35. Where the fuck did the time go?

[–]Bajimazabulumana 14 points15 points ago

I'm 25 and I could swear that I was 20 about 3 years ago. I'm turning 26 in a month, at this rate I'll be 30 by 2013.

[–]reagan2016 13 points14 points ago

Back in '91 I was trying to understand what the heck email was in my college computer course. The TA was all like, "You're going to have to learn how to use e-mail in this course" and I was all like "... but I don't even know anybody who has a freaking e-mail address, so why do I need your stinking e-mail??!!!"

On a similar note, I remember my teacher talking about GOPHER, "When you get out into the real world you will need to learn how to use GOPHER. All of the information you will find in the future of your carreer, you will find using programs like ARCHIE, and that information will be presented on GOPHER sites".

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]reagan2016 4 points5 points ago

No. DAFS on Veronica or Jughead to find out.

By the way, I can't read that last word you wrote because the text is too small and I don't have my glasses on.

[–]Dastak 0 points1 point ago

But op didn't imply he was born in 93.. ' one of ' the many newspapers his mum gave him had the said article ..not the one from exactly the year he was born in

[–]otatop 6 points7 points ago

Uhh...

My parents gave me copies of every Newspaper from the day I was born

It's fairly clear.

[–]moofdivr 0 points1 point ago

I'm sitting in a college house with like 3 kids born in 93'. They're sophomores.

[–]3065462 0 points1 point ago

Is that important because they are old or because they are young (can't tell-not from America)

[–]3065462 1 point2 points ago

I was born in 93 and we got a computer with the Internet when I was 7 and I've been here ever since.

[–]tomdarch 0 points1 point ago

In '93 I was asking my friend Dave how his Computer Science buddy Marc was doing with his "sending pictures and text over the internet" thingy.

I think it was called a "web browser", and Marc was Marc Andreessen.

[–]supasteve013 1 point2 points ago

back in my day you got logged off the interwebs if someone wanted to use the phone

[–]bythisriver 0 points1 point ago

uhhuh #teenchat@undernet, it was like back in '93-'95. Modems and stuff, yikes.

growing old is weird.

[–]edwartica 0 points1 point ago

Jonathan Coulton has a line in the song "Good Morning Tuscon:" I'm still kind of amazed you could be born in the 90s.

Yeah, that's how I feel about this type of thing.

[–]mongo_lloyd 0 points1 point ago

Are you retarded or something? 1993 was like 18 years ago.

[–]cconrad0825 11 points12 points ago

That's a lot of newspapers!

[–]Dukelicious 5 points6 points ago

The same guy interviewed him again in 1997, after he declared jihad against America. Here's an excerpt from his book where he looks back at both meetings.

The road grew worse as we continued, the jeep skidding backwards towards sheer cliffs, the headlights playing across the chasms on either side. “Toyota is good for jihad,” my driver said. I could only agree, noting that this was one advertising logo the Toyota company would probably forgo.

[–]Counterkulture 5 points6 points ago

I bet those quotes aren't even translated.

He spoke flawless english, which I don't think most people know.

[–]techtakular 11 points12 points ago

93?!.... Get off my lawn...

[–]DotishGuy 9 points10 points ago

this is a cool thing to do, will keep in mind to buy newspapers when my child is born :)

[–]IAmtheHullabaloo 8 points9 points ago

If they still exist. You could bookmark the front page of the HuffPost, or print it out, or something.

[–]pagirl 1 point2 points ago

If you forget, look up what happened on Wikipedia.

[–]CoyoteStark 3 points4 points ago

Enemy of my enemy and whatnot.

[–]shifty_coder 2 points3 points ago

"You can either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain." -Harvey Dent

[–]nextwiggin4 6 points7 points ago

This sounds like a pretty good guy all and all. I wonder what happened to him after all the shit went down in Afghanistan, you know? I mean, you fight for your country one decade then boom, you're in the middle of another conflict. I'm surprised he didn't get involved in this one.

[–]TedFTW 0 points1 point ago

I am exactly six months older than you are

[–]MichaelJayDog 2 points3 points ago

Sounds like a pretty good guy, wonder what he's been up to lately?

[–]smithjm 2 points3 points ago

"Mr. Bin Laden" makes me cringe.

[–]DaasRacist 0 points1 point ago

  • read comments

Hey, that is my birthday!

  • who cares, people are born everyday.. of course somebody would have same birth date. Why comment that? Matter of fact.. what date is it anyway.. ?

6th of december, same birthday as me

what.the.fuck. DUDE, WE GOT THE SAME BIRTHDAY!!!

[–]I_AM_NO_MAN_ 4 points5 points ago

I sat here for five minutes wondering how the hell you would acquire "every newspaper" from the day you were born... That would be thousands of newspapers.

Then I realized you meant that they gave you copies of different newspapers all dated on the same day, your birthday.

Modifiers, people, modifiers.

[–]Lars0 2 points3 points ago

It amazes me no one else has pointed out how fucked up it is that this article was printed 10 months after the 1993 world trade center bombings. Shouldn't we have known it was him by then?

[–]huffglueinstead 5 points6 points ago

Osama bin Laden played no important role in the 1993 WTC bombing. Although Ramzi Yousef was involved in al Qaeda training, that is where bin Laden's involvement ends. Yousef planned the attack and was provided funding by his uncle, Khaled Sheikh Mohammed (the man who would later devise the 9/11 plot and approach bin Laden to help in carrying it out).

[–]Zipwang5555 3 points4 points ago

Yep.

[–]OldFolks 1 point2 points ago

I am literally 4 days older than you.

[–]DeathByMagnets[S] 5 points6 points ago

Your username says otherwise haha

[–]FashBug 4 points5 points ago

One day younger. You old fart.

[–]mythofsissyphus 2 points3 points ago

11 days younger. Have fun dying before me.

[–]bass-tard 1 point2 points ago

Good Guy Bin Laden :-/

[–]carr0tjuice 1 point2 points ago

Do you live in Australia? If you do, I'm pretty sure I heard you on the radio this morning.

[–]mortuusanima -1 points0 points ago

This is an extremely interesting article/ post. Thanks!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

So you were born in December 5th were you?

[–]zzmikey2zz 0 points1 point ago

Hey that's my birthday, you stole my birthday...

[–]Schmand45 -1 points0 points ago

Thats my birthday too

[–]mizzholly228 -1 points0 points ago

WOW

[–]Tarconus 0 points1 point ago

You know what else will blow your mind sadam huesian was our friend against the russians too, who do you think gave him the weapons. There are numerous other people that the government says you should hate now that we have used as pawns against other countries, and we are still doing it now.

[–]readparse 1 point2 points ago

It's a complicated world, ain't it? It's hard to know who to root for, and it's even harder to know what will unfold later. At the time, anybody who had stood up to the Soviet Union was a hero to Americans. That story still looks extremely positive. The only problem with it is... the dude went bad. Hindsight is, of course, perfect.

[–]withanH 0 points1 point ago

Op and I have the same birthdate! Yay!

[–]swampscotia 1 point2 points ago

We have always been at war with Eastasia.

[–]Dinshu 0 points1 point ago

Hey. We share the same birthday just ten years apart. Have some karma!

[–]bilobaman 1 point2 points ago

THE TABLES HAVE TURNED CHARLIE MURPHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[–]ropers 0 points1 point ago

Thank you for sharing this.

[–]xcvb3459 0 points1 point ago

No good deed goes unpunished.

[–]TP740 0 points1 point ago

We share birthdays! Oddly the only person I've seen to ever share it, too.

[–]shaboopalaboopi 0 points1 point ago

I am 3 days older than you. Booyah

[–]moofdivr 1 point2 points ago

“The rubbish of the media and the embassies,” he calls it. “I am a construction engineer and an agriculturalist. If I had training camps here in Sudan, I couldn’t possibly do this job.”

...shit

[–]_deffer_ 1 point2 points ago

Shit... people born in 1993 are 18/19...

I'm getting old.

[–]Andragos -1 points0 points ago

Sounds like your parents have a hoarding problem.

[–]pewpitar 0 points1 point ago

Thats ironic LOL!

[–]Jello95 0 points1 point ago

We were allies of Bin laden when he was fighting the soviets. After they were gone he switched to us.

[–]mitharas 1 point2 points ago

Good guy Osama, you simply have to like him.

[–]kazakhpimp 0 points1 point ago

I was born a week before you! Wheeeeee

[–]amaxen 0 points1 point ago

Why am I not surprised that Robert Fisk wrote this piece?

[–]Meingos 0 points1 point ago

We share the same birthday. You're awesome.

[–]strikey182 1 point2 points ago

I never got a cool thing like this when I was born.. Luckily I was born on the exact same day as you, so I shall just use your newspapers instead.

[–]twoworldsin1 1 point2 points ago

Man...that bearded guy looks so nice and friendly and harmless...almost reminds me of a certain other nice bearded guy...

Yeah, that's right, I said it. Deal with it.

[–]Transubstantive 0 points1 point ago

I would make a funny about how you were born in 1993, but my nephew sent me a friend request on facebook and he was born in 2000. I'm old.

[–]wdr1 1 point2 points ago

Happens all the time.

During World War II the Soviets were an ally. Then they became our Cold War adversary.

Japan was an enemy so determined that their pilots would fly suicide missions to crash their planes into our ships & bases. Now they're a close ally.

Iran used to be a major ally in the region, now they're public enemy #1.

We fought a world war with Germany, then rebuilt their economy & they became the front line for the US during the Cold War.

India used to be a semi-hostile with relations with the Soviet Union. Now an important ally. Pakistan used to be an important ally & now a country viewed with skepticism.

Canada burned down the White House & is now our "friend to the north."

China used to be an important ally, but is now considered a major concern of the US.

[–]93Luke 0 points1 point ago

So how did your parents manage to get every single newspaper in the world all printed on the same day?

[–]ODkush 0 points1 point ago

i did a quick google search on a timeline of Osama's life these are from the top three results on google

date of article from OP Monday December 6, 1993

First Hit is the Guardian

• 1988 Al-Qaida - "the Base" - established in Afghanistan as centre for radical Muslims joined in opposition to the US, Israel and its allies

Second is CNN

December 1992 -- U.S. forces land in Somalia, spearheading a U.N. authorized humanitarian plan to bring in famine relief supplies. Part of their challenge is disarming the various warlords who control the country. Prosecutors charge that bin Laden threw himself into the conflict, sending some of his followers to Somalia to train the >warlords to fight the U.S. troops.

and

February 26, 1993-- A bomb explodes at the World Trade Center in New York City, killing six and wounding hundreds. Six Muslim >radicals, who U.S. officials suspect have links to bin Laden, are eventually convicted for the bombing. Bin Laden is later named along >with many others as an unindicted co-conspirator in that case.

Third is Reuters 1988 - Soviet forces leave Afghanistan.

Al Qaeda (The Base) is established as a magnet for radical Muslims >seeking a more fundamentalist brand of government in their home >countries and joined in common hatred of the United States, Israel >and U.S.-allied Muslim governments.

Top three on google show he was never our ally at the time of article

its kindastrange

[–]Halcyoner 0 points1 point ago

I turned 20 that day. Damn I'm old.

[–]Kitchen_Items_Fetish 0 points1 point ago

God I hate all these people whinging about how young OP must be. Seriously, we get the fact that you were born earlier than him and how you must be so much better than him.

[–]iseenem 0 points1 point ago

Toy Story came out two years later

[–]Lepke 0 points1 point ago

Man, that Osama bin Laden guy was a really good pers-

[–]Cadetsumthin 0 points1 point ago

You are 8 days older than me...Happy birthday in advance!

[–]redditspice 0 points1 point ago

yah no shit fuckface

[–]peacockskeleton 1 point2 points ago

These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game.

Charlie Wilson

[–]MasterxAce 0 points1 point ago

Cocaine is a helluva drug.

[–]lokisama 0 points1 point ago

How would history be different, if Bin Laden is to be believed, if Russia didn't lob defective bombs and they exploded right in front of him probably taking him out. It's all Russia's fault for building cheap ass defective weapons/bombs.

[–]andro88 0 points1 point ago

Sad to think, my dad's friends thought he was crazy when he said the Americans would regret not backing the soviets.

[–]UnknownArchive 1 point2 points ago

day I was born

1993

Fuck I'm getting old.

[–]e3m88 1 point2 points ago

Can I have some context? Who is this gentleman?

[–]whirlingderv 0 points1 point ago

Well that's fucking fascinating. I'm 27 and I never knew anything about the Soviets and Afghanistan until the last few years. It is a shame that we always ran out of time in history classes in school and never got past WWII.

[–]iskandarios 0 points1 point ago

Yeah, neither the media nor the government like to talk about how in the 1980's we funneled millions of dollars to Islamic extremists -- including bin Laden -- so they would fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, because who hates godless commies with a greater passion than religious fundamentalists?

[–]LwrncD1 0 points1 point ago

You need a History lesson, Kid.

[–]Stratocaster89 0 points1 point ago

For a second then I thought you were 7 years old. When will I start remembering its not 2000 anymore

[–]summinspicy 0 points1 point ago

'MURICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[–]BigNoo 0 points1 point ago

Actually what this goes to show is the law of unforeseen consequences.

[–]railxp 0 points1 point ago

You Either Die a Hero, or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become the Villain

[–]Bogsy 0 points1 point ago

Oh, the irony is palpable.

[–]unkeljoe 0 points1 point ago

Tim Osman,

[–]Terminus1 0 points1 point ago

Hahahaha... propaganda much?

"Once I was only 30 metres from the Russians and they were trying to capture me. I was under bombardment but I was so peaceful in my heart that I fell asleep. "

[–]savage_beast 0 points1 point ago

You're 12 days older than me.

[–]hereweareonceagain 0 points1 point ago

1993? Fuck I feel old

[–]selflessGene 0 points1 point ago

Say what you want about Osama but he gets shit done.

[–]Ss0612 0 points1 point ago

Yet again proving why messing with Afghanistan never ends well. Ever

[–]nixon007 -1 points0 points ago

Osama bin laden was a CIA tactician and he was funded by the us to fight the soviet invasion in Afghanistan.