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The battle has already been won.. (i.imgur.com)
submitted 1 month ago by gozman
[–]TheLateApexLine 53 points54 points55 points 1 month ago
Now imagine that the helicopter child represents the vast majority in your community, and votes only for other helicopter children based on single issues.
South Texas
[–]Deafiler 11 points12 points13 points 1 month ago
Try 'America'. 44 Christian presidents in a row, and no sign of slowing down.
[–]TheLateApexLine 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
Indeed. It's not easy, and it certainly doesn't feel as though the battle has already been won in 'Merca.
[–]basmith7 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
We could have a Mormon soon.
[–]buckykat 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
still a christian.
[–]basmith7 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
I prefer to refer to them by their denominations. Statistically it makes each group smaller and less powerful, and could lead to more in fighting.
[–]buckykat 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
shrug. they claim they believe in jesus christ, just like other christians do.
I was referring to all christian denominations.
[–]Deafiler 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I miss the days when Jesuits and Protestants still killed each other over their respective religions.
[–]slightly_bald 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
You know, for a community that prides it self on it's logic and reason this sub has a lot of people who absolutely love stereotypes and generalizations.
[–]sabre_toothed_llama 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
You, sir, have just figured out life.
[–]Kadith 0 points1 point2 points 28 days ago
Is Mormonism not an Abrahamic religion?
[–]slightly_bald 0 points1 point2 points 28 days ago
Christianity isn't the sum total of all Abrahamic religions.
[–]namefinder 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
ha
[–]Riceater 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
You know, I hate to single out a religious denomination over the others because they're all equally ridiculous but seriously... how the fuck can anyone be a mormon? What part of that religion makes any plausible sense? Just another reason Romney is vastly out of touch with reality.
[–]ColdShoulder 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Is that actually accurate? I'm fairly sure there should have been at least a few deists in there.
there was jefferson for one, who sure as hell talked like a deist.
And I'm pretty sure Washington and Madison were too.
[–]Deafiler 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
The first few were almost certainly; the streak is probably more like 30 or 35.
[–]Original_Woody 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
44 Christian prez that we know of. I have my doubts that all were convinced. It's just the average voter is an idiot.
[–]ColdShoulder 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
Or the helicopter kid starts murdering other children because they aren't the right kind of helicopter.
[–]Vivipwns26 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
I feel your pain bro. East Texas
[–]TheLateApexLine 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
You mean, the battle hasn't already been won out there in Baptist country?
[–]Vivipwns26 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I'd say it's an easy fight in the college towns, but damn do they have a surplus of Christian organizations.
[–]basmith7 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
I'm from Beaumont, South East Texas. When friends introduce you to new people they mention what church they go to.
Yikes. I'm currently studying in Nacogdoches but I'm from Houston. Out here it's a small town so there aren't many churches to choose from, but back in Houston there is a pastor at a local Baptist Church who likes to fly his helicopter over my house every fucking Sunday at 8 in the morning to get to his services.
Wait.... he does what?
[–]sam4059 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
And then imagine the helicopter child convincing a bunch more people that they are helicopters and to fight the train children because they are evil.
[–]locotxwork -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Just curious, why would you state where you are from?
[–]TheLateApexLine 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
For context.
[–]locotxwork 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Okay, just curious. I thought maybe it was a badge of honor . .aka surviving in a conservative state with your non-beliefs within the enemy's domain . .that type of thing. =)
[–]TheLateApexLine -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago*
Oh I see. Nah, It's for context because what may be demonstrably true in some parts of the US, or the world, might seem surreal in other places. I actually like Texas, a lot, aside from the sometimes disturbing amount of religious influence (and racism) I see/hear and deal with daily. My reply to this quote is mainly to point out that while this mentality may be suited to most situations, in most developed areas of the planet, it certainly wouldn't be appropriate here. I survive here by keeping a low profile.
Edit: I don't know why you're being down-voted for that. C'mon Reddit.
[–]absurdamerica 14 points15 points16 points 1 month ago
Yet him treating the religious person like a child who believes hes' a helicopter is actually far more demeaning and offensive than trying to engage the religious person to think about their beliefs.
[–]LucidMetal 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Some religious people. I have religious friends who enjoy talking about their beliefs and I have religious friends who will get angry if we talk about their beliefs. Some of them actually are children.
[–]gloude96 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Because they do not want to discuss their beliefs?
Some do. Some don't.
[–]Lebagel 6 points7 points8 points 1 month ago
Problem is the battle hasn't already been won.
Even in the UK where it FEELS like it's been won - where all the clever comedians and journalists are openly atheist we still live in country bound to the stake of religion.
We have unelected religious figures in the House of Lords. Even Americans don't go that far - they vote for their crazy people.
[–]rj20876 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
Couldnt disagree more. If it were a harmless belief then fine, indulge or ignore. But the problem with faith is one of systematic denying of rights and killing in the name who has a better imaginary friends. No one would think its moral to indulge racism based on the belief that one race is an inferior species so why would you indulge harmful beliefs like this?
[–]hargleblargle 12 points13 points14 points 1 month ago
So... treat religious folk with an attitude of veiled condescension instead of explicitly stating that you disagree with their worldview? I can do that, but I don't see what it accomplishes.
[–]brainburger 8 points9 points10 points 1 month ago
He's a stand-up comedian.
[–]hargleblargle -4 points-3 points-2 points 1 month ago
I know. So?
[–]brainburger 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago
So your comment doesn't make sense the context. It's a joke. It's supposed to be condescending.
[–]hargleblargle -3 points-2 points-1 points 1 month ago
And I was being a sarcastic ass about it, as that is the way one is supposed to react to a joke on the internet.
[–]ottawadeveloper -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Yeah, I don't like either position. Different world views are good, they encourage diversity when they play well together. Secular government and education, but personal religion.
[–]egalitarianusa 9 points10 points11 points 1 month ago
Where is this guy from and how rich is he, and selfish?
Apparently he feels safe from the abuses of religion, not everyone does, and those of us agitating against it know that.
[–]RobotPolarbear 17 points18 points19 points 1 month ago
I don't feel safe from the abuses of religion. In fact, I'm actively fighting to stop religion from blocking my right to get married.
However, I find this quote delightful. I think it's important to recognize that dealing with religious individuals is different from dealing with religious organizations.
The majority of the religious people I know are about as harmful as the child running around shouting "I'm a helicopter!". I'm not going to argue with them. What's the point? All I will do is make myself look like an arrogant, culturally-insensitive asshat. These people aren't doing anything to harm me. So they have an imaginary friend. So what?
The people that I'm concerned with are the ones with power; the religious politicians, the lobbyists, the church leaders. They are worth having a debate with. They are worth taking on.
Of course there's a gray area in between. But for the most part, there's no need to argue religion with the average person I meet.
[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 1 month ago
your right to get married? what does that mean?
[–]AlwaysBananas 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
It's likely safe to infer that RobotPolarbear would like to engage in a same-sex marriage.
[–]brainburger -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Any sex marriage. While same-sex marriage is unlawful nobody has the right to marry whoever they choose.
[–]RobotPolarbear 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I'm not asking for the right to marry whoever I choose. I'm asking to marry the woman I love, who is also a consenting adult.
[–]brainburger 0 points1 point2 points 29 days ago
You may or many not have that right at the moment, depending on your gender. Yes the other has to consent and be competent to do so, that should be the only limitation.
[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 1 month ago
I just bristle in appealing to "rights" for anything. Whatever right you claim I can claim a right that puts us at loggerheads. It spurs self-righteousness on all sides and I don't think gets us any further ahead.
[–]WolchBot 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
What right do you have the would tell someone they could not get married to another consenting, mentally intact adult?
Edit: Changed from "marry" to "married"
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
does it matter? what do you appeal to once I produce one? I'm claiming rights are an illegitimate basis for argument.
e.g. Right to life vs. right to choose. If you move this to a debate over personhood, what is the basis of your definition of personhood except that which supports your own right? Where do "rights" come from?
So are you a nihilist? Where do you ground any of your arguments?
Your stance seems to be philosophically appealing but practically useless.
I'm legitimately curious what you believe.
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
yeah, you're gonna hate this. Love, bro. Which is even worse than "rights", really. Ill-defined, more problematic, and more useless.
[–]coowhipp -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Just like your comments.
[–]buckykat -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
don't generalize. address the case of same-sex marriage. what right can your claim that puts you at loggerheads with that?
[–]ElenaxFirebird 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I think his point is that 'rights' aren't an objective thing floating out in the world- people make them up as they go along. Theoretically, anyone could claim to have a right to whatever they wanted. Being a right doesn't make something good or sound. For example, "I have the right to raise my kids how I want!" That could include all sorts of abuse. There was not "right" for gays to get married before. It's not something that was generally accepted as okay. So it got invented- the "right" to same-sex marriage.
He's not saying that same-sex marriage is a bad thing, of course. He's just saying that claiming it as a 'right' is ultimately meaningless. Trying to come up with an alternative right a person could claim leads me to something like, "We have a right to decide what kind of society we live in." (And that's a terrible thing. Leads to all sorts of awful. But people could still claim it as their right, even though they'd be making it up.)
[–]buckykat 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
the concept for america is basically "rights are what most of the people think they are, and y'all can fuck off about it" in extreme tl;dr format, as opposed to "rights are what the king says they are"
Bless you.
[–]coowhipp 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Really?
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
yes, really. What is that right? Did someone have to tell you you have that right? Or do you get to choose it for yourself? And why should I recognize it? "Rights" are problematic.
I'm not 100% sure what you are really saying but in America we have a right to equal treatment under the law. The law has many benefits included for married people, therefore it is your right to have access to those benefits provided you meet the preconditions.
sure, rights are really a proxy for something sanctioned by the state.
[–]coowhipp 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Is this intended to be a coherent thought?
Practically, a "right" is something approved of and enforced by the state. An argument on the basis of "rights" appeals to the authority of the state. (I claim).
[–]coowhipp 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago*
I don't understand what this has to do with anything stated in your original statement. It just seems to me to be convoluted definition of what a right is but I don't see how it is germane to the discussion.
Upon a bit more thought you seem to be addressing the use of right in reference to a legal right rather than innate human right, is that correct? I personally use the term as a legal right since that is how it is used in the constitution/bill or rights and we are talking about rights "under the law" (of the government of the United States).
Well, it does. I don't see how that part's problematic, though. I mean, we're appealing to the state to change its rules to allow things (same-sex marriage, in this case.)
So people don't have the right to marry someone of the same sex just yet, but we're fighting to have that right.
[–]RobotPolarbear 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago*
Marriage equality? I live in Washington state. This year the state house and senate passed marriage equality bills but religious organizations managed to collect enough signatures to put it to a popular vote. So basically, my civil rights are going to be voted on this election season. It's kind of a bunch of crap.
Edit: Wow... I should have looked at the comments first. I mistakenly believed this person genuinely didn't understand what I was talking about. I'm not sure what to say. I don't usually expect to have to argue why I should be able to get married to the person I love when I'm on /r/atheism.
[–]TheatreNate 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago
Simply enough, he's a British atheist, alot like myself, and we simply don't have the same kind of religious fanaticism that we see from the States. So yes, he's probably safe from the abuses of religion like me and other British atheists. Which is quite strange, considering that our head of state is also the head of our church, I suppose it may just be the British uncommitted attitude to everything.
[–]YoucancallmeJOLS 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I think a national religion helps atheism. When there is backlash against either the church or the government it's more acceptable to switch to secularism than a competing religion, which may be backed by other nations and seen as treasonous or unpatriotic.
[–]DingDongSeven 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
Oh I KNOW what you mean! A stand-up comic said something disrespectful of religion — what a mean, horrible, selfish & rich person he must be!
As atheists, it is our DUTY to wring our hands, gnash our teeth and wail about this!
/s
Twit.
[–]mitchmalloy 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Uhhhhh... missing the point much?
He's not saying he should be shot down for disrespecting them, he's saying privilege is a great barrier to the interloping of others. If in every other way he is socially privileged, then he's already fairly insulated form having to worry about religious people abusing his rights. Those without such safety nets have a lot more to fear, and thus have more of a duty to stand up to religion for self-preservation than those who already have nothing to worry about. Consider Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates; both noted atheists, but totally insulated against the discrimination others experience in religious communities--South Texas, for instance--and seen as enough of cultural icons that religious people WIDELY overlook their atheism.
Whining about rich people would be pretty ridiculous for this subreddit (and probably any other while we're at it), but it's not whining simply to imply that if he has privilege he is more secure than those of us who does not. Being a Brit also probably has a huge impact on his worldview, considering how much weaker religion is there as opposed to, say, the US, where you can literally still get run out of town for publicly not believing in God.
[–]gozman[S] 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
He is an English comedian. No idea about his wealth or levels or selfishness, I just thought this quite was funny. I agree though, I myself try to stand up for what I believe in (anti-discrimination) and for what I don't believe in (God etc), and in doing that I receive allot of hatred. So I agree, it's easy for this privileged kid to say what he likes, where in effect that attitude can't work for everyone.
[–]-Awake- 6 points7 points8 points 1 month ago
I think this is a fantastic attitude to have as long as no one is persecuting you based on religion. In fact, this is going to come to mind for me now whenever a friendly person introduces themselves as religious, I feel as though I have a way to smile at them a bit more genuinely now.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
He is gay. He is no stranger to religious persecution.
[–]MrMastodon -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Lets put it this way, his parents are Jewish and he's in showbusiness. I'd say he would be somewhat well off.
[–]Discord_agent 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
We should just tell them "that's nice" and give them a condescending pat on the head.
[–]Master_Dez 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
I'd agree, but for one problem: Those theists, helicopters, choo-choo trains or whatever... they're trying (and in many cases, succeeding) in getting their myths turned into our laws. In other places in the world, they will literally torture and kill you for not accepting that they're a helicopter, or not claiming that you're also a helicopter and making the appropriate whup whup whup noises. If the largest effect of religious belief was purely how they're perceived at parties, I'd be in complete agreement. Sadly, that's not the largest effect. Not even close.
[–]Aberu 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
Imagine that helicopter child's helicopter obsession led them to try and beat down the rights of the others, because the helicopter manual says that what other people do is wrong and they are an abomination. Now you get why we still battle religion. You can't have peace with a group of people who are usually at WAR with you. We didn't start this.
[–]usypicus 10 points11 points12 points 1 month ago*
I can't begin to say how dangerous this line of thought will prove to be (whether if it is a joke or not in this context, it is quite a prevalent thought here on reddit). To think that atheists have already won, and by doing nothing and feeding the acceptability of dangerous, baseless belief structures that far outnumber your own - no matter how right you are, is wholly naive. These people use horrendous tactics of child indoctrination, fear manipulation, bigotry, the list goes on... And yes, all religious people are a part of this - not to the same extent, no - but no matter how much sugar you put in a bowl laced with cyanide, it's still a bowl laced with cyanide. No matter how much we despise the conversion tactics of the religious, you know what? they work! Do we have to be as abrasive as they are, perhaps in some cases (for example: often the only way to communicate with a screaming child is to scream even louder than he does in order to bring him into to a place of reason) but to stay silent and pat them on the back, and say its okay to believe whatever you want, will mean the quick elimination of all reason. I suppose the point I'm trying to get across is that religion is dangerous even if people aren't using it to persecute you with it. If they're using it just for good, why do they need religion? To feed their egos and justify to themselves that there is some magical reward for their actions? A person who does good with no reward for it should be valued far more than one who does it purely for his own benefit. edit: Downvoted... how predictable. edit2: Upvoted? how unexpected.
[–]Cubikus 8 points9 points10 points 1 month ago
Complaining about downvotes is usually the fastest way to get one from me.
[–]ijustwanttotaco 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
And he has like one downvote too. I can't imagine why someone so sensitive would post on the internet.
[–]usypicus -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
Me neither.
[–]usypicus -7 points-6 points-5 points 1 month ago
And I always downvote people who downvote people who complain about being downvoted and then post a comment about why they downvoted them. Ha ha... We've entered an infinity loop of downvotes. Enjoy your deathtrap ladies.
You broke the loop by including an excellent Simpsons reference.
[–]WeaponsGradeHumanity 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Is there a link to a video of this or what?
[–]poorkidsimax 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
He looks like he's in pain.
[–]Lord_Derp_The_2nd 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
This is old, but it always makes me smile.
[–]Alphanabla 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Atheist here:
However idiotic peoples' beliefs are I think this is a rude attitude. I don't believe that we have to go out of our way to "respect" peoples' beliefs but I think being rude is just uncivil; and this particular kind of rudeness is like the one the religious stick by whenever they send us to hell. Come to think of it, this is the atheist version of sending them to hell, atheist hell is a thinking man's hell: intellectual immaturity.
[–]Bassjumper0590 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Wow, what a great quote. Tell me could you have been MORE condescending? Or was that the best you had? Really? Oh, how cute, Choo-choo.
[–]supermonkey1313 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Every time I see this, I can't help but think that he looks like Astrid from Fringe.
[–]spin0r 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
The first thing I noticed about this thread is that "ywahw" in the title reminds me of "yahweh".
[–]timscheller95 -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
couldnt a similar viewpoint be taken against atheists? that it's rude to attack their cynical viewpoint that is, in the eyes of religious folk, rebeling and childish doubt? just a thought.
[–]rooneymara 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
repost
[–]Pastor_Bill 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
yup
[–]gabriot 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
The repost has already been reposted..
[–]Warfrog 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Simon Amstell is a member of Landmark Education, an offshoot of Scientology rebranded as "lifestyle coaching" which uses aggressive psychological techniques such as NLP to induct its recruits for $500 a course. It has been banned in multiple countries and vigorously pursues outspoken critics legally.
So yeah his patronising sentiments are nice n all, but he is just as immersed in existentialist philosophy as other religious people.
[–][deleted] 1 month ago
[deleted]
Your one friend certainly represents 100 million+ Americans...
[–]coowhipp 0 points1 point2 points 29 days ago
Nope just pointing out no one cares
[–]luigikiller1000 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
No if a kid was running around saying he's a helicopter I would shout NO and punch him in the face haha I don't like kids
[–]RhinoMan2112 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
If this picture is now we're counting the score we've won at least a hundred times already.
Seriously.
[–]fatfook 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Which is a lovely thought until the religious helicopter on the morning commute decides to detonate a bomb in the name of Chinook.
[–]DebatableAwesome 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
The amount of times this has been reposted is too damn high
[–]ShamrockTheCasbah 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I call being an ultralight glider!
[–]DigitalSoul247 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won - Sun Tzu
[–]SamReidn 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Hey, I downvoted this. Not because I disagree with the content or I dont like the qoute.
ITS BECAUSE THIS HAS BEEN REPOSTED SO MANY FUCKING TIMES.
[–]coolstorybrosky 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Yeah, this is how I would feel if religion didn't cause millions of people to die, barricade scientific achievements, and influence a society of retards.
This quote implies that being religious is completely harmless; well, its' not.
[–]Amryxx -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Your post implies that without religion, every evil in the world will be banished. Well, it's not true.
[–]coolstorybrosky 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Lmao, no, it actually doesn't imply that whatsoever; nice logic though.
..Not really, no. In fact it implies exactly what it states: That Religion is harmful. Cool Straw-man tho.
[–]Amryxx 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Thanks. Can't celebrate Druidic festivals without one. After all, we all need scapegoats rather than face our own responsibilities - which, in this case, is "religion".
[–]Lord_Derp_The_2nd 1 point2 points3 points 29 days ago
You're off topic again. He never said religion was the source of all evil. He just said it causes harm. It's quite easy to pick out proof of that from history, i don't see what you're trying to dispute?
You are extrapolating the argument and making it absurd, and refuting a statement he never made. Rather ridiculous, really.
Can we pleased ban this post for a few months? I am so dang tired of seeing this one.
[–]ellewallace86 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I want Simon Amstell to be my love muffin.
[–]SezitLykItiz 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Choo Choo Motherfucker, choo choo!
[–]complex_reduction 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Twist: The Christian is a senator and just voted for a bill that stops science and sexual education being taught. The Muslim is a radical that just beheaded a half dozen women for daring to dance with men at a party. The Jew is a rabbi who just gave a child an STD by sucking the blood off his mutilated penis.
The real problem though is unkind atheists who express themselves.
[–]NozzALa 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
What a cute little passive-aggressive ass clown.
[–]phism 0 points1 point2 points 29 days ago
I don't know who Simon Amstell is, but he looks like a pansy and he should stop being nice to dumbshits.
[–]n1nj4_v5_p1r4t3 -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
this is awesome
[–]starfisherman -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
hmm an openly gay atheist comedian just trying to be nice. would have thought this thread would have gone another way
[–]MoreAxes -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
Don't you love it when you look through the whole thread only to find people talking in detail about who someone is, but everyone seems to be playing some sort of weird game where you can't mention that person's name nor provide the source of the quote in the link?
Neither do I.
[–]Dunning-KE 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
But... Children don't fly planes into buildings or start mass genocides.
[–]zeroexe43 -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
Thank you! been sick of this agressive atmosphere atheism has had.
[–]Lord_Derp_The_2nd 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
It's not the atmosphere we want - it's the atmosphere we NEED!
[–]PaulSheldon -3 points-2 points-1 points 1 month ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf0oXY4nDxE
[–]amstarism 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Just in case anyone is sufficiently interested in seeing the manner of his delivery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z22WMy45v-A
I always took the joke to mean that believing in any of the monotheistic religions is as ridiculous as thinking you're a helicopter, I'm not convinced he actually DOES have such a sympathetic attitude towards believers.
It is true though, that England is a lot more secular than the US. I can count Christians (well, 1) amongst my friends, and they know that they are the minority, and that their views are considered odd. I think our heigh level of secularism is a direct response to having a state sponsored religion. Much like reading the Bible will make you an atheist, having a state religion can have a similar effect.
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