use the following search parameters to narrow your results:
e.g.reddit:pics site:imgur.com dog
reddit:pics site:imgur.com dog
see the search faq for details.
advanced search: by author, community...
1,176 users here now
Help Atheist Organizations! The Secular Student Alliance, Camp Quest, and Foundation Beyond Belief were all nominated for the Chase Community Giving program, which awards grants based on the votes of the public. Everyone gets 2 votes on Facebook, plus an additional one if they share a CCG page. The links for them are: SSA | CQ | FBB Voting runs from September 6-19
The Secular Student Alliance, Camp Quest, and Foundation Beyond Belief were all nominated for the Chase Community Giving program, which awards grants based on the votes of the public. Everyone gets 2 votes on Facebook, plus an additional one if they share a CCG page. The links for them are:
SSA | CQ | FBB
Voting runs from September 6-19
Welcome to r/atheism, the web's largest atheist forum. All topics related to atheism, agnosticism and secular living are welcome here. Please read our FAQ.
Please link directly to any images or use imgur to avoid being flagged as blogspam
Recommended reading and viewing
Thank you notes
Related Subreddits <--the big list
Chat: #reddit-atheism on irc.freenode.net
Watch: #/r/atheism on reddit.tv
Read The FAQ
Submit Rage Comic
Submit Facebook Chat
Submit Meme
Submit Something Else
reddit is a source for what's new and popular online. vote on links that you like or dislike and help decide what's popular, or submit your own! learn more ›
This is getting ridiculous (i.imgur.com)
submitted 1 month ago by TheKhajiit
[–]fireflyinajar 18 points19 points20 points 1 month ago
As a pro-choice person, I just want to say that this image is dumb, incorrect, and completely missing the point.
[–]Neynt 9 points10 points11 points 1 month ago
As another brave pro-choice human, I can't stand this terrible image either.
Have some devil's-advocate-y original content that turns the fallacy the other way around. Never-before-seen internet image right here folks!
http://i.imgur.com/8oN7X.jpg
STALEMATE, "ATHEISTS".
[–]fireflyinajar 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Heh. I'm a pro-choice Atheist, and my only problem with that image is that I'm not convinced the "weapon" is a weapon. That's not defined by a chromosome count, so it depends on usage.
[–]Gemini4t 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Indeed. A weapon is whatever you use as a weapon. I have a pocket knife but I wouldn't consider it a weapon because it's so dull it can't cut my skin no matter how hard I drag it across. (It could still stab though, a formidable inch and a half of blade.)
[–]fireflyinajar 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Have you seen 127 Hours? ;)
I haven't. Was his pocket knife an off-brand Swiss army knife? Mine is. It's super-dull.
Yes, it was. He describes it as the type of knife you'd get for free buying a $10 flashlight.
[–]Lemondish 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
I'm confused as to how that is the case. Can you help enlighten me :( ?
[–]fireflyinajar 13 points14 points15 points 1 month ago
Sure! (If you only read one thing in this long response, make it the last paragraph.)
First, this image is making invalid comparisons, as far as I can tell. A fertilized egg (which the last image is about to become) and a seed are comparable. I'm not sure if the yolk in that picture is fertilized - if not, that's not comparable. Certainly, silk vs. dress is not comparable to embryo vs. human in the slightest. Silk does not grow to become a dress.
But really, this image - and many pro-choicers - miss the point of what it is to be pro-choice. As a biologist, I must be able to identify a human embryo as just that - a human embryo. I don't care if you're short or missing an arm or trapped in a uterus because you're not big enough yet, you're still a Homo sapien (or dog or cat or whatever your chromosome count says you are). Even if you're a parasite, you're still your own entity. We are defined by our chromosome count. As a biologist, I cannot say otherwise. The thing is alive. Yes, it's a parasite - parasites are alive too! Yes, I'm pro-choice - I kill lots of living things (directly or not), from that banana I just ate, to that friggin' cockroach in the bathroom. Whether or not something is alive has nothing to do with this.
Let's put it this way. Many die because of liver-related disease - but we do not require people to donate their livers. Did you know that if you donate a portion of your liver, you'll have a regenerated, fully-functioning one in eight weeks? Eight weeks. You could save a life with only eight weeks worth of bother in your life, but you're not forced to. Many women could save a life with 9 months (or longer, post-birth or post-C-section isn't pretty) of bother in their lives, and they shouldn't be forced either. I don't want any human to die, but I cannot dictate that other humans do a thing (from donating a liver to donating blood to donating a uterus) to prevent this. I can suggest that they do, encourage them to - I can also try to prevent liver disease or unwanted pregnancy. But legally force people to hand over their bodies so that another might live? No. The law should not take away people's rights to choose what happens to their body.
Thank you for this. I'm making certain to keep the whole response, though you certainly were right in suggesting the last one had most of the meat in it.
That liver reference was enlightening. I have a lot to think about now.
Glad to help :) Frankly, I was on the fence about the whole abortion debate (I felt that abortion might be needed in our current times simply to keep women's rights afloat, but may need to be gotten rid of in the end) until a few months ago when friend of mine got me to really understand what the "choice" part really meant.
That said, I don't like the idea of people dying. I think abortion should be a right, but I want society to set itself up such that that right doesn't ever need to be exercised.
[–]Lemondish 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago*
Well, what struck me from your post was just how much education can enlighten someone. I was not aware of the impact liver donations can have, how little it could be to the donator, and how important it could be to the recipient. Because of this I am considering such an act, and know others who, similarly enlightened, would as well.
Personally, I have to figure out how that works when I'm about 2 months away from no longer having health insurance because I'm a bit too old now :(
But my point is that education feels and sounds like the solution. I suppose then your previous belief that it may be needed for women's rights best illustrates the transient existence that the right to an abortion may require. Pro-choice until our society reaches a point where a distinction is no longer relevant.
Ah, are you on your parents' insurance and unable to afford it on your own or something? I'm sorry :/
I don't think unintended pregnancy will ever go away - everything has a failure rate, people who are otherwise abstinent may be raped, etc. But certainly, we can prevent a great majority of unwanted pregnancies if our society keeps moving forward. Unfortunately, there are a lot of pro-lifers that are also anti-birth-control. Which just makes matters worse.
If you are interested in donating your liver, the recipient's insurance company may be willing to cover costs or something. I don't really know how the logistics work, but I imagine you wouldn't have to pay for it on your own.
[–]Lemondish 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I'm still a student, thus affordability is nill. I'll of course have to wait until November to see if me and people like me will continue to be unable to acquire it through normal means. In any case, that is a discussion for another time.
I will certainly do my research. I laugh at this thought if only because it seems so ridiculous, but it may be as simple as posting on craigslist ;)
[–]Whirledpeas1129 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
OK, I get that biologists see cells as life, but it is not a standard belief among scientists that a fertilized egg is a human being.
I want to add, though, that I absolutely loved your comparison about donating a liver. That is exactly what pregnancy is like. It is a long, drawn-out, and slightly risky process that does ultimately culminate in giving someone life. A person should not be forced to do it. --Mother of two
Maybe the phrase "human being" has more implications than I wanted. My point was that a fertilized egg is alive (therefore a life), and is certainly human (as opposed to any other species, or a rock, or something). I think scientists can agree that an embryo is alive and of the human species, but I didn't mean to imply a consciousness or anything of that sort.
And thanks :)
[–]qwints 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Don't forget to join the National Marrow Donor Program!
[–]Sevoth -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
First, I want to make it clear I'm against banning abortion.
Your liver example is not relevant to the abortion debate. People don't have a moral obligation to help a stranger. I'm unaware of anyone that would say a parent has no moral obligation to care for and/or help their own child. Moreover, most pregnancies result from consensual sex. This vastly changes the situation because if someone wishes to avoid the natural consequences for engaging in the activity designed to result in those consequences that's fine, don't have sex. But to argue that they have no right to avoid those consequences because they can't terminate the pregnancy is just flat wrong.
[–]fireflyinajar 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago*
Unless you believe sex should only be used for procreation, there is no reason to assume that taking responsibility for the consequences of sex always means carrying to term. If you do believe this, we have such dramatically different starting points that we can't really have this discussion. But I do not believe sex was "designed" to do anything. It was simply an evolutionary advantage to like enjoy an act that furthers the species - but people are enjoying the act, not necessarily the reason the enjoyment evolved.
That said, if someone causes a car accident/etc that leads to the laceration of someone else's liver, they're not tested and forced to donate part of their liver to their accident victim. Is that more obvious a comparison to you?
Unless you believe sex should only be used for procreation, there is no >reason to assume that taking responsibility for the consequences of sex >always means carrying to term.
No, you're missing the point. The point is unless there was criminal activity, pregnancy only comes from a woman making a choice. Unless a woman is raped in some way she will never get pregnant without having consented to the risk of pregnancy. So any abortion argument centered around a woman's "right to choose" is a very bad one.
But I do not believe sex was "designed" to do anything.
Well, not actively designed. But evolutionarily yes, the function of sex is to make babies. Even if we want to quibble about design or the overall function of sex, there can be no doubt that it's a significant risk. A risk that all but the most ignorant are aware of.
That said, if someone causes a car accident/etc that leads to the >laceration of someone else's liver, they're not tested and forced to >donate part of their liver to their accident victim. Is that more obvious >a comparison to you?
Yeah, that's a much better comparison. We don't force them to do anything with the liver specifically, but we do recognize a moral obligation if someone that harms another. Legally they can be forced to give restitution or spend a lot more than the time it would have taken to recover from the liver procedure in jail (depending on the specifics of the accident.)
A woman can choose to have sex, and to protect herself from one (or many) of the consequences. I assume you don't think that, if a woman gets HIV, she's obligated to not get treatment? Or can she only get HIV treatment if she was using a condom?
I assume you don't think that, if a woman gets HIV, she's obligated to >not get treatment?
It seems like your thinking is very confused. I haven't said anything about what a woman's obligation is if she gets pregnant. If a woman gets any STD it's a very different scenario than pregnancy, assuming everyone is honest. While sex carries the risk of STD transmission, it's not something that's at risk every single time you have sex. Even if a person does contract a STD, no one would try to say they're not responsible for dealing with the consequences of that choice. If a woman has sex and gets herpes, nature isn't taking away a woman's right to choose to not have herpes.
Further, there's no rational argument in which HIV treatment or not infringes on the rights of another making the abortion debate fundamentally different.
Can you explain to me how STI transmission isn't at risk every time someone has sex? Is there a world where testing is always accurate and people are always honest?
[–]Sevoth 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
People don't always have to be honest and tests 100% accurate for STI to not be always an issue. All it requires is for people and tests to be honest/accurate sometimes.
It's an informed consent issue. There's never a scenario in which pregnancy isn't an issue with a pre-menopausal fertile woman. If someone is lying about their infections it becomes a very different kind of situation.
[–]TheKhajiit[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points 1 month ago
Yes, I know the picture is horrible and completely wrong. We've been over this hours ago. Please downvote and move along
[–]Soapy9 58 points59 points60 points 1 month ago*
I hate this image, you're comparing things which aren't on par with each other to make the other side of the argument seem ridiculous, which is misleading and unfair. The chicken egg isn't fertilized, the seed isn't planted and silk isn't even alive. However, the human egg IS fertilized and is already in the process of becoming life (which the other 3 aren't unless something else is added). Your image would be correct if the 4th picture was an unfertilized egg.
No one says eating eggs is wrong, but some would say once the egg is fertilized that it is in the process of becoming a chicken and it would be wrong to destroy it. That is NOT what your picture shows.
No one says a seed is a tree yet, but if you planted that seed and let it grow, then some would say that it is in the process of becoming a tree and it would be wrong to destroy it. That is NOT what your picture shows.
No one says that silk is a dress yet, but if you harvested that silk and worked on it then some would say that it is in the process of becoming a dress. That is NOT what your picture shows.
No one says that an unfertilized egg is a human yet, but once it is fertilized some would say that it is in the process of becoming a human, so it would be wrong to destroy it. That is NOT what your picture shows.
Stop spreading lies.
At which point does a fertilized egg become a human? 2 seconds? 4 weeks? 3 months? 9 months? That's where the argument lies, it's not as simple as "hey, here's an egg, a seed and some silk, you're a moron if you think differently from me."
[–]Silos97 10 points11 points12 points 1 month ago
No one says eating eggs is wrong, but some would say once the egg is fertilized that it is in the process of becoming a chicken and it would be wrong to destroy it.
As a Filipino, I wholeheartedly disagree. noms on balut
[–]Semper_fi_guy 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
Ohgodwhy.jpg
[–]bigbangbilly 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
You are asking the wrong guy.
[–]Gemini4t 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
As a former co-worker of a shitload of Filipinos, I can tell your balut to fuck off.
[–]MysticOath 8 points9 points10 points 1 month ago
If I may be blunt, this argument is stupid. Object X is not the same as an Object Y which is in the process of becoming Object X. A tree seed has nothing in common with an adult tree except for its DNA. It cannot be cut into lumber, it cannot engage in photosynthesis, it cannot produce other trees. It retains none of the traits and qualities we regularly assign to the term "tree". Saying that it is in the process of becoming a tree does absolutely nothing to make the seed adhere to the qualities of a tree, and gives no reason for anyone to consider it a tree.
At which point does a fertilized egg become a human?
Depends on what you consider to be "human". * A clump of human DNA exists days after fertilization. * A fetus has a 50% chance of survival outside the womb at 5 months into the pregnancy. * A fetus cannot feel pain until the third trimester. * Fetuses are not conscious at least until the third trimester.
To me, it does not matter the potential of Object X, or the future possibilities. What it is at its moment of termination is what it is classified as. The "in the process" argument is a poor argument that tries to label an apple as an orange.
I personally believe that humans can learn, can think on their own and make decisions regarding their existence; since fetuses can do none of these things, and instead fit the description of a "parasite", then I consider them to be simple structures of human DNA that are operating on nothing but biological mechanics that have existed in our DNA since we first evolved.
[–]Tmos67 -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
I'm not making any debate regarding pro-life or pro-choice but one thing that irritates me is the argument that a fetus is a parasite. All symbiotic relationships, whether mutualism or parasitism, occur between species. You cannot create your own parasite. A persons body can't tell if whether or not they want a baby. From a biological standpoint making babies is pretty much our bodies most important function and is necessary for the survival or any species. A fetus may be unwanted or inconvenient but it's still a human fetus either way, not a parasite.
[–]MysticOath 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
My bad for the wording there. I was meaning to imply that it has the features of and more resembles a parasitic organism than a full-grown human/mammal, as pro-lifers would argue.
I know full well the complete definition for the term "parasite", I simply prefer to use that terminology when discussing the issue of what constitutes "human life" from an organism-level standpoint. In a biological context, I'd likely reference it differently.
[–]Soapy9 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Exactly, I agree with you completely, that's that point I'm trying to make. No one is saying a seed is a tree, which is why this image is false. It's implying that pro-lifers think that a fertilized egg is the same as a seed, which they don't.
I think that the "in the process" argument is important, because somewhere along the line a seed becomes a tree. That's where the conflict arrives, some people argue that once a seed is planted it is life and shouldn't be destroyed, others think differently. Change tree to human obviously.
[–]Foreveraloneatheist 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I agree this picture is not very constructive, however there is one thing that might not have been considered which is the concept of the soul. The moral aversion to abortion, which pro-life advocates feel, often stems from religious doctrines regarding the soul appearing at the moment of conception. If there is actual scriptural references to this, I don't know. Regardless, this post may have attempted to expose this view as archaic, albeit poorly.
[–]nermid 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
No one says a seed is a tree yet, but if you planted that seed and let it grow, then some would say that it is in the process of becoming a tree and it would be wrong to destroy it.
So, if I dig up a seed that has started to grow, but not yet broken the surface of the dirt, it's the same as chopping down a twenty-footer?
Nevermind that the egg there is clearly about to be fertilized, so your point is as pedantically wrong as your objection is pedantic, itself.
It's not as simple as "hey, eggs, seeds, and eggs aren't the same, and you're a liar if you think differently from me."
Back the fuck off.
[–]Soapy9 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
Some people who consider that once a seed is planted that it is life. That the seed now has the future potential to become a tree, so if you then destroy that seed, you are destroying a life and a potential tree. These people would consider destroying that planted seed just as bad as destroying a twenty-footer. That's NOT what OP's image says though. OP's image implies those who believe a fertilized egg is life, also believe that a seed must be a tree. They don't believe that though, it's just a pathetic tactic to try and weaken their side of the argument and make them seem illogical.
Well if that is a picture of an unfertilized egg then what the fuck is the point of the whole image? I've never seen anyone who claims an unfertilized egg is a human being or even life, nobody thinks that.
I'm not saying you're a liar if you think differently from me, I've not once gave my opinion on what I think of abortion, that's not important. The image tells lies, therefore OP is spreading lies by sharing this image.
[–]THEREFOREiEXIST 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
In response to your question
In my opinion it should be at the point where the organism's organs and structures have all appeared and have grown to the point where it meets the bare minimum requirements for being 'complete'.
When an embryo "graduates" to the status of a fetus in the second trimester, around 13 weeks, is when it has all its parts. They just haven't matured.
That said, I disagree that a 13 week old fetus should be given the same rights as a woman. Genetic diseases are typically caught around week 13, as well as severe spina bifida. However, it's not until about week 20 that they're able to catch other health problems. For example, are there four chambers in the heart? Is the brain developing properly? The later a pregnancy goes, the more likely a woman can suffer health consequences from things like pre-eclampsia and gestational diabetes. A woman should be able to terminate a pregnancy at that point. Until 24 weeks pregnant, inducing labor or performing a C-section is considered an abortion. So, if I'm 21 weeks pregnant with a fetus/baby that I want, but I start bleeding out from placental abruption, it is still considered an abortion to have a doctor induce the pregnancy or do an emergency C-section to save my life.
You can believe what you want, but you'd better not take away a woman's right to choose before 24 weeks. States that limit a woman's right at 20 weeks are sentencing some women to death. There needs to be an option to get the baby/fetus out of the womb at any point.
[–]THEREFOREiEXIST 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
So my question now is what are the odds of a 24 week old child surviving outside the mother? Because it seems to me like a pretty border between 'birth' and abortion.
[–]Soapy9 -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
bare minimum requirements
Who decides those requirements?
Some will argue that the bare minimum requirements are met as soon as it is fertilized.
I think these requirements would be when the baby/fetus/organism is no longer dependent on its mother save for breast milk, as in when it's able to eat mush on its own. But there are many other ideas, all of which I am open to.
[–]BrutusHFX 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
No one says eating eggs is wrong
r/vegan would like to have a word with you....
I'm not a vegan, but never liked eggs. I've always likened it to eaten a chickens period....
[–]KentThePineapple 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I believe the argument against dairy, eggs, and other animal products is the suffering by the animals that produce them (tiny unhygienic cages, etc.), and that vegans would have the same wide variety of opinions about whether fetuses/eggs are ethical to kill, or for how long, as any other group.
[–]Whirledpeas1129 -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Now, you're the one being stupid. You said the other three things would become something else without outside forces. Well, a fertilized egg won't become a person without a woman and her uterus.
[–]youknowwhothisis 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Whether or not it is in the process of becoming a human doesn't make a difference, really it would be just the same as any other group of cells in your body that are constantly multiplying; it's still not alive. Also it does not become a human until the child is born, before then it is a fetus, and before then just a simple group of cells. This is not a difficult concept.
[–]alittler -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
The fourth picture is an underutilized egg. It won't be for long, but it isn't yet.
[–]triotheyoshi 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
See, this is where extreme opinions meet. There have been countless incidents where our feeble language has failed miserably to describe reality, and this is one of them. Basing your actions, or paradigm on ideas built out of words, instead of reality its self is an enormous mistake, and leads to millions of hours of human life wasted, squabbling over definitions. In reality. It's like mistaking a single painting of a mountainside for having depth. The only way you can really have any amount of faith in your own ideas is if you take a look from as many standpoints as possible.
From the most objective, non-human standpoint, it does not matter what we do, we will all die eventually, no matter how many babies we do, or do not abort. The only thing left of us will be crumbling ruins on one, or more, dry, dead planets.
From an environmental standpoint, having inadequate children can both cause increased irresponsibility of our population, and an increased population overall.
From a societal standpoint, inadequate, fatherless, or children from wrecked families are more likely to be unproductive, or produce more inadequate, fatherless, and psychologically unhealthy people. This is a dangerous pattern, which can threaten almost anything made out of family units.
From an individual standpoint, a baby that you're not ready for could easily ruin your life, bring incredible gratification, or do both, depending on the circumstances. This is standpoint is rather neutral, but leans towards the negative.
From an objective, close-up standpoint, the destruction of this thoughtless, non self-aware blob of flesh with human DNA would not matter to it whatsoever. It is not capable of understanding anything until much later after birth, so its destruction would mean nothing to it, there is almost no distance between its oblivion, and total oblivion. It does not hold any invested work belonging to people other than the parents, so it is the choice of, and only the choice of the parents whether or not it gets to live.
From the standpoint most people take, there is value in its potential, and the child could be a great person in the future. For slightly more pessimistic, or realistic people, the value is also tainted with required investment, and work, and that the taint may exceed the greatness. "Said child could become a great man if he grows up, or he could become a dangerous, or mediocre one. Regardless of the possible outcome, to raise this potential human would take thousands of hours of work."
From the most common religious standpoint (christianity, or catholicism), the more extreme you get, the earlier a fetus becomes human. Starting with the least extreme; birth, to the most extreme, before conception. Other variations include things carrying human DNA, or DNA whatsoever.
From my personal standpoint, you are not human until the day you become self-aware. Personally, that memory is very vivid. I was four, I looked up, and realized that I was alive. There is no warping in that statement, either. I went to my father, and argued that I was born four years old. However, things are a little more complex than that, and must be different for every person. I recognize several levels of intelligence, built into each other in an emulative fashion, and this is where my opinion is derived from. The first level of intelligence is the processing power of the universe its self, calculating between plank-time units where every single particle in the universe will be next. The next is the level of intelligence between atoms, or molecules, where several stable things are automatically found, and propagated. The very existence of a stable, two-way chemical reaction is due to the calculations of those atoms, so-to-speak.
The next level is a lot closer to us, and in fact branches off from other levels of intelligence. This is the level of bio-chemicals. The intelligence in this level has a specific name, or several names, actually. It is known as natural selection, or evolution, and it is the tendency for a large number of organic chemicals to, over time, perfect themselves. Finding the most efficient possible systems through sheer trial, and error.
The next level is intelligence by neurons. Or brains. You've been living around these all of your life. This is the only kind of intelligence with the human kind of "consciousness". No other intelligence's have this.
The next level is societal intelligence, or intra-personal intelligence. Intra-personal intelligence deals with the flow of information its self, and can get extremely complex at times, and often participates in the higher tier.
The next is super-societal, which is the interactions between societies, or intra-personal clusters. This level is the level in which things like war happen.
Whatever, you get the picture. My point is that non self-aware beings lack the neural form of intelligence, and are incapable of actively participating in the intelligence's above, which is what I measure as value. Fetuses especially lack this even moreso than animals, because they have never received stimulation that correlates with the outside world. They certainly have the potential to, in the future, but they require a ton of effort to be sacrificed so that they may fulfill this potential.
This is just my opinion, and I was not spoon-fed it by any religious nutter, so feel free to suggest a change. I will not be offended. Just remember that I don't take emotionally warped, or insipid answers as relevant.
[–]bigbangbilly 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Any way of getting that memory of self awareness? I am not sure of it myself.
[–]branawesome -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
This debate about abortion shouldn't be about the abortion act itself. It's just a procedure. There are tons of procedures that stretch the bounds of what may be "playing god" or the bending morality. Whether one is "wrong" or not is completely circumstantial to the individual and their situation. It's stupid to debate this so broadly.
Did you mean to reply to me?
I'm not debating anything about the act of abortion. My whole post is that the image OP posted is full of lies to try and make pro-lifers seem stupid and illogical, saying that believing a fertilized egg is a human, is like saying a silkworm is a dress or a seed a tree. It's not though, not at all, it's just a flat out wrong comparison which is why I think this image shouldn't be posted.
[–]TheKhajiit[S] -13 points-12 points-11 points 1 month ago
No, this picture is correct in that it is breaking things down into its bare materials, the things they are before they are trees, dresses, etc. You are implying that something in the process of becoming another thing should be treated as the thing it will become. That is not the case, a functioning human is exactly what it is. Silk is not a dress. Even in a state where it is being sewn into one. A child is not an adult just because it will be.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago*
That image always pops up every now and then, then it gets bashed down with comments about how it's a fallacy.
I'm sure plenty of us agree with the abstract idea that the image is trying to get across. That a fertilized egg isn't really developed enough to count as a human deserving of rights yet. But when you actually try to turn the image into an argument, it falls apart. Soapy9 seemed to have covered it pretty well.
I'm pro-choice and I think letting a fetuses rights trump the mothers rights is cruel and immoral. And for reasons that are very similar to the ideas behind the image, but I still think that image makes for a bad argument. The analogies the image makes are good at showing why I make such a strong distinction between a fertilized egg and a person, but not why I don't care about the survival of that egg, which is the crux of the issue.
Personally I don't like any of the arguments that involve saying it's not a "person". I rather just grant them that, yes, it's a person, a human, an innocent bystander. But then argue why it's morally acceptable to kill that person and simultaneously why it's immoral to force someone to go through a pregnancy they don't want.
It's still incredibly misleading, because like I said, the 4 things are not on par with each other. You are not breaking things down to their bare materials, not at all.
An egg is an egg, it is not life and no one says it is. A chicken requires TWO things, one being an egg and the other being sperm. You have only shown ONE thing.
A seed without soil, water and light will never become a tree. Again, you have only shown the seed.
Silk is silk without someone to turn it into a dress, you have only shown the silk.
A human egg is an egg without sperm, not life. No one says every time a woman has her period that she is destroying life, but you have on- WAIT A DAMN MINUTE. Is that a fertilised egg? I do believe it is. That egg has all the necessary components to become life, what is it doing in this picture? Oh, it's there to give bias to your argument and make those who oppose it look illogical? I see.
[–]TheKhajiit[S] -7 points-6 points-5 points 1 month ago
So you're telling me that a fertilized egg can become a human all by itself? No mother to provide it with nutrients? oh, i guess im wrong then, carry on arguing with people on the internet over something so insignificant as the possible ignorance of other people. I honestly could care less at this point, i was only sharing this picture with reddit, it isnt my own work. Just downvote and move on.
[–]Soapy9 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
Well, I'm going to assume that the fertilized egg is inside a human females womb, otherwise it would not be fertilized.
carry on arguing with people on the internet over something so insignificant as the possible ignorance of other people
Isn't that EXACTLY what your post is about? You are complaining how ridiculous it is that people are ignorant towards a concept.
You're just sharing the picture, and I'm just telling you why it is wrong. I have every right to comment on why I think you're spreading misinformation, so stop getting so butthurt over it.
I honestly could care less at this point
You could care less? Really?
[–]jgzman 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Not all fertilized eggs become properly imbedded in the vaginal wall. The best stats I could find in a few minutes were 22% failure rate. Failure to implant results in the fertilized egg getting flushed out with everything else during menstruation.
I guess it's more like a seed that you thought. They both need to be properly planted.
[–]TheKhajiit[S] -8 points-7 points-6 points 1 month ago*
Fine, i give in, you are 100% right. I'm wrong. I shouldn't even be arguing. However my argument was a reaction to the hostility in that first comment, and being sick of reddit getting pissed at me over things such as this. I am also aware that the expression I used is gramatically incorrect at expressing what i meant to express and was just using it as most people mean to. EDIT: a word
[–]iThib 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
He/she has you, though. No, an unfertilized chicken egg is not a life, nor is an acorn. They are completely unrelated to a fertilized human egg, though. This is a misleading meme for anyone with less than normal intelligence. A fertilized human egg is, in actuality a fetus. An unfertilized chicken egg is only potentially a fetus, so no, it's not a life. Nor is an unplanted seed a tree, nor a silk worm a dress. So, three statements are true. The fourth is a false, hasty, and deceitful generalization and does not include the facts. Now, if that human egg isn't fertilized, then I agree with you, Khajiit, it is not a life. But that's never been the debate. A fertilized egg is nothing like an unplanted seed or a chicken egg. You arguing the point just makes you seem even more ignorant and stubborn.
[–]TheKhajiit[S] -5 points-4 points-3 points 1 month ago
Yeah, i already acknowledged my ignorance. In my defense however this isn't my meme. It is a meme i shared with reddit.
[–]ArmaanN -3 points-2 points-1 points 1 month ago
So a planted seed is a tree. Perfect.
Also, the silk will become clothing, correct? So, that makes it a shirt, for example. Therefore, it can be worn. Wonderful.
I'm not saying that at all, the point I'm trying to make is that there are a bunch of other things required to make life. A seed is not a tree, whether it's planted or not. No one says it is though! The image implies that those who believe a fertilized human egg is life, should also believe that a seed is a tree. They're just not the same thing. The comparison I'm making is that a planted seed could now be considered life by some people.
What point are you trying to make? I really don't think you're grasping the concept I'm putting forward here.
[–]Dirgon 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
and this is an awful comparison.
[–]mathgod 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
This is the most reposted image I've ever seen.
source: karmadecay
[–][deleted] 1 month ago
[deleted]
[–]DefenestratorOfSouls 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Am I the only one getting tired of people calling fetuses parasites? Yes, a woman should have control over her body, but they're not technically parasites and it just makes us look silly to the pro-lifers.
[–]prada_goddess -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
i think consent was given when she screwed a guy and got pregnant. it isn't like she was like, "aw snap, how the hell did i get pregnant"
There is a thing in the united stated call implied consent, and I do believe that knowing what sex CAN lead to, and then having that happen is giving the child consent to live in the woman. There are many forms of birth control, for the man and woman. Personally, I used one for me and my partner. Mainly becuase I didn't want a child (so i used protection) and they didn't either (so they used their own). It wasn't like we were going to have sex and not realize that a pregnancy is still a possible outcome.
To me, and this is going out there onto my personal feelings on the matter, but this is on par with say buying a gun, and then "accidentally" killing someone. Claiming "i didn't realize a gun could actually KILL someone", that person would still be guilty of killing someone. The act is done, life is altered, we need to deal with the situation.
To not go so extreme, would you buy a car and travel 10 mph over the speed limit, and then a cop pulls you over and you say, "but officer, i can't afford a ticket right now, see I have school, and i'm already in debt, and I just can't handle another ticket", that just wouldn't fly.
We have a simple law here that says ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law. So why isn't it the same? being ignorant of odds of getting pregnant is not an excuse to abort a fetus, anymore than being ignorant of laws is an excuse to get out of a ticket.
[–]blind_wisdom -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
I agree with prada to an extent, that people should be held accountable for their actions. But why can't getting an abortion be a way to deal with unplanned pregnancy? You still haven't actually given a good argument against the act itself.
[–]prada_goddess 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
So to the topic of abortion as a form of birth control, well that is on the higher level of debates of when do human rights kick in. The problem is there is no cut and dry answer. Saying conception is the starting point is easy, we can measure it, and there is no question as to pain and other various problems that are considered with abortion. But this lacks various tests such as self-conscious, or pain feeling. The one argument for conception (other than easy) is that defining human as being a full DNA sequence. By which once a full sequence is developed, then that "person" has the right to life at the minimum, in as much as that no direct action by another "person" should interfere with the life. Take for example a disabled person. If the person taking care of the disabled person were to leave, for a 1 year vacation, would that person be guilty of killing the disabled person for not feeding them?
The problem arises in that we have no way to tell about feeling of pain (we have a good guess, but really have no way of fully knowing) and not only that, babies develop at different rates.
The other problem is there are actual diseases that cause you to not feel pain, this is an extremely rare case, but if pain is the definition of life, then that person doesn't deserve to live.
Or for a better example, take the argument that a child is fully dependent on the mother. Well the same can be said for a disabled person, who cannot find employment and must be fully supported by the family, and sometimes even fed. Does this person deserve less?
Now for the kicker, if you want all logical arguments, and defense of said arguments, you follow this link: http://www.iep.utm.edu/abortion/
Now to address the issue, what is wrong with abortion. The problem with abortion is simply it cheapens life. It makes life more expendable. Just like giving up rights for security, we find that we end up with neither. Likewise, if we lessen the sancity that is life, we can find ourselves with a degraded view of humanity. That were are nothing more than just clumps of cells, that happen to have emotions, but really those emotions are just survival instincts, chemical reactions, and all that so there should be no more remorse for killing a human than say a cow to eat a burger. (cows feel pain). We can also see the cheapening of life as the odds of a second abortion are higher than the first abortion, which would indicate that most people feel less guilty the second time.
So personally, I am more for the concept for 2 main reasons.
1) there are many chances to prevent pregnancy before abortion
2) it leads to a cheapening of human life.
But read that link, it gives perhaps the best and most impartial view. I would tend to agree with rape and harm to mother, but beyond that I cannot morally agree with it.
[–]blind_wisdom 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I have to disagree that it cheapens life. Life itself isn't inherently valuable, except in the sense that it benefits ourselves and our communities to be alive. Human beings aren't special, and neither are animals. Also, correlation does not equal causation. Because people are likely to get second abortions does not imply that the first one affected their judgement.
[–]HaveJobWillFail 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
While I agree with you that consent has been given by the very act of allowing sexual intercourse to occur, a bit of realism is required to further the debate.
The same kinds of people who are going to forego proper birth control are the people we don't want having children; young and/or uneducated people whose lives are not suitable for children.
Of course people should be held responsible for their actions, but I think telling a teenager that her drunken mistake means she's doomed to permanently life-changing responsibility is a bit much. To tell you the truth I don't even give a third of a fuck about the promiscuous idiots; I care about the poor kids being raised in mediocrity and squalor.
If removing a ball of cells from an idiot will give her the ability to properly prepare herself for a baby I'd say it's worth it to extinguish the ball's chances at life.
First off, you are right, we need to take this a bit further.
I would like to propose a thought experiment. If the clump of cells that will one day become a "poor kid", what stops you from killing the poor kid? Under this line of logic, couldn't we just test each child every year to make sure they aren't too dumb or too disadvantaged and just kill them if they fall too far behind? I point this out as you seem to care about the poor child, but decide that a poor child's life is not worth living, so he should just stop before they get interested in life.
The first real argument is based on libertarian ideals, which you seem to partly agree with. And that is people should be responsible for their actions. Just because someone is deemed not wealthy, doesn't mean that they will be a worse off parent. It does tend to be so, but not everyone turns out like that.
The telos side of me will argue that the purpose of abortion should be to save the life. That abortion is not a form of birth control, that is not the purpose. It might have been at one time when there was no other forms of birth control, or people didn't know better. But we are in a society of educated people, and have at their fingertips more contraception than ever before. The purpose of abortion should be only to save the mother from death, or in the case of rape as it was not consented to have sex (the act of making a child).
The utilitarian side of me would ask what yields the net good. I think without emotions, abortions does make sense for many people, and will yield a net gain.
The egalitarian side I think could go both ways. One part says that in order for everyone to be equal, we need to protect all human life equally, and not conditional on some parts. If you were to be born an aborted fetus, would you want that? would you want to have been aborted and not have every experience you have today? Likewise, if you had an unwanted pregnancy, would you want the option to abort. So I think egalitarians would have to abstain from them, as there is no clear better choice.
Lastly Communitarian. This is the line of thought that we have a duty to those we associate with. This line of logic is more around communism and Socrates. it is the idea that we are to sort of be a nanny. Now a communitarian I think would agree easily that abortions should be avoided if possible, and we should do everything we can to adopt or at least take care of children if we can. But as far as supporting the community, it would depend on the values of said community. So if your local community said a fetus is a clump of cells, then you are not violating communtarian logic to abort. But if you live in the deep south, your duty to the community that helped raise you is to bare the problem, much as society will bare your problems. So this would basically leave it up to states to decide.
So in the end, I tend to agree with the statement of abortions for rape and danger of mother, otherwise we should have a fully funded "unwanted babies" program.
On a side note, in California it is legal to leave a baby at the fire-station as long as it is young enough. So in CA, you can have your child, not abort, and still give up for adoption.
And as far as cost of carrying to term, we have charities like march of dimes that pays for all that. They are an amazingly awesome company.
First off: I use the term "poor" to mean "unfortunate" and not "lacking in material wealth".
If you were willing to leave the test design, implementation and execution to a group of humans who will inevitably distort the process with their own biases - not to mention the bribery and blackmail the process would invite - then sure, why not?
Unfortunately, as such a system would be as unpalatable as it would be vulnerable to manipulation, keeping unfit parents from becoming parents in the first place is the best option we have. I am not saying that the life of every child born to an unfit mother will necessarily be miserable and not worth living; But the life of an unfit mother will be better without having a child forced upon her.
Though a lower-income mother will not always provide an unsuitable environment for a child, there is a strong correlation between the two. There are so many factors that might come into play it's almost not worth discussing: From lack of time available for childcare due to work to insufficient educational standards.
Again, even though there is a chance a child born to a poor, uneducated household will do just fine, allowing the mother to establish herself socially, educationally and financially before she has a child will almost certainly facilitate more effective child-rearing.
As far as your argument that the purpose of abortion should be to save a life: That needn't be the purpose of abortion. The purpose of abortion can be simply a last-ditch effort at preventing unwanted children. Sure we have plenty of types of contraception at our fingertips (hence why I have long pushed for government-subsidized birth control for everyone who wants it) and many members of our society are educated; but the ones who aren't are both the people who will get pregnant accidentally and the people we don't want having children. Better sex-ed is definitely a part of the battle, but abortion is absolutely necessary if nothing else gets the message through their damn skulls.
For your egalitarian argument I respond thus: If my mother had not been socially, financially and educationally stable (28, employed, married, both spouses Master's degree holders) and my birth would have ruined her prospects then yes, I should have been aborted. Likewise if I got someone pregnant at this point in my life I would absolutely push for an abortion. Adoption is all well and good if you can find a couple that wants the baby, but if not then you've dumped another kid into the already-strained system.
I won't even go into interpreting my arguments from a Communitarian standpoint. It is not the government's job to be a nanny for people who can't make good decisions, it's the government's job to mitigate the damage from and punish the perpetrators of bad decisions. Basing your decisions on the ones of those around you is foolhardy; As commonly held beliefs so often rely less on information and understanding than on idiotic moral traditions.
[–]bfflaalz -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
A parasite decreases the fitness of its host. As fun as it is to say how much small children suck on reddit, a fetus does increase the fitness of the mother
[–]TheKhajiit[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
Actually, parasites can be beneficial to the host, or not affect it at all.
No that is symbiosis
[–]nermid 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
And that's why, instead of abortions, we should call them "premature deliveries."
If the baby survives a delivery at 6 weeks, clearly it's viable. If not, apparently it's not a life. Everybody's happy.
[–]rick2882 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I'm pro-choice and all but this is a second trimester fetus.
Your analogy is ridiculous.
[–]gondor2222 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
FTFY
[–]LegacyHope -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Well by definition it is a parasite. Parasite- (noun) An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or IN a different organism while contributing NOTHING to the survival of the host.
The point is valid. The thought that human life is superior to all other life is just human arrogance. We are not special. We are the same as other life.
[–]nermid 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
Parasitism is actually defined as an organism of another species, so that's a fun rhetorical point, but not a valid one.
[–]Lots42 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Bullshit. I'd kill a dog to save a kid.
[–]LegacyHope 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Well we aren't talking about a 2 year old child or a "kid". We're talking about an unborn fetus that is not alive and can't do anything without living off it's host like a parasite. And of course you would kill a dog to save a kid, human arrogance. I assume you are human so you would fit into that category. What if the kid turn out to be a serial killer? Seems like the dog would of done better in this world then that kid.
[–]Lots42 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
There is no way to know if a 2 year old will turn out to be a serial killer.
So your question is meaningless garbage and you should feel bad.
I do not. The reason I don't feel bad is because everyone wants to make a women's choice their business. And it isn't. Her body, her choice. None of your damn business. And yet people go and try to make women feel terrible for making an impossible choice that can haunt them the rest of their life. I'm sure women don't take this matter lightly and everyone tries to make them feel bad for deciding what to do with their body. I will never feel bad for making a point. And you nor anyone else will ever make me feel bad. Also Dogs > selfish, greedy, ignorant people.
What about a dog that will eat a baby eight years from now?
Domestic Dogs are not violent creatures. Humans train them to be violent. Another example of why Dogs > Humans.
You didn't answer the question.
Answer the question or apologize for being a loser unable to debate.
XD
okay then. If the dog killed someone it should be put down. You know like dogs are when they kill someone. Luckily they dont have death row. Where the sit for 40+ years sucking up tax payers money. Also my point in the serial killer argument was not "oh lets kill babies they might do bad things" the point was people want to worry about a fetus when its in the womb but once its a child they're like "oh fuck that who cares if the kid is starving, or sick, or has shitty parents. we only care if its unborn". We've totally gone off the subject though. The point the picture is that people think a Zygote (earliest stage of life) is a baby when its not. My point was that a fetus is a parasite (by definition). And yours was that you would kill a dog.
Don't forget your point was that you think all humans are worthless garbage scum.
[–]slowerthanlight 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Dunno why nermid is getting downvoted for a very astute correction. To add to it, parasites do not to increase the chances of an host's genes being passed on (quite the opposite). Offspring, as opposed to parasites, are very beneficial to a species for obvious reasons.
[–]LegacyHope -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
Well it's not like were an underpopulated species . There's over 7 billion of us.. We could stand to lose a couple million.
That's true. However, the fact remains that an offspring growing within a mother is not a parasite.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
This is an invalid point, unless your speaking strictly of "Mourning-After" Pills. An entire fetus does not correlate to a sperm cell.
[–]milkyjoe241 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Ummmm- yes it is a difficult concept and we do need to discuss it. And comparisons like this don't help, same as using a 2000 year old book doesn't help.
[–]DayspringMetaphysics -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
Can i smash endangered eagle eggs with no objection?
[–]nermid -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
The breakfast of champions
I think its a pretty hardcore jump to consider eagles people. Just as its kind of a hardcore jump to consider a fertilized egg a person.
[–]DayspringMetaphysics 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
who is considering eagles people? My point is, many types of eagles are endangered and their eggs are protected. If there is no causal lifelink between eggs and eagles, then destroying the eggs should not be illeagal. If this link is established in eagles, then why is this link not established in humans?
I'm sorry, I keep hearing this argument about eagles and protection and its really hard to understand the connection with fertilized eggs in people. I mean, eagle eggs are protected because they're an endangered species and their eggs will produce eagle offspring to continue replenishing the species. At no point is 'life' considered in this, just that eagle eggs become eagles. If you bring up the eagle argument, it sounds like what you're saying to me is that fertilized human eggs should be protected because eagles are an endangered species and we need more eagles. I'm completely lost in this whole debate by this point.
what you are arguing then, is the morality of killing people is contingent upon how many of people there are. If there were 12 people on the planet, would you argue then that abortion was moral or not moral?
Is morality the point? Is it moral to tell a woman that she cannot abort the product of a vicious sexual assault? Is it moral to tell a woman that she must bring to term a child that will die the moment it is birthed?
A little less dramatic, maybe? Is it moral to tell a person what they can or cannot do with their body? Does morality come into play when the government tells a doctor what he can or cannot suggest for his patient?
I think the answers to these questions will often times be influenced by our surroundings and the state of the race. We can definitely appreciate giving up personal freedoms for the betterment of society, but is that the pressure here? At this moment, we exist in a world with rampant over population, so I believe that yes, we can allow a woman to decide what she wishes to do with her body, or a doctor the ability to deal with their patient as they see best. I believe that he threat of survival is not weighing down on us in this decision so we can make them free of such influences. I believe that all these things can happen because at the end of the day a fertilized egg isn't a person.
what percentage of abortions are due to vicious sexual assult or impending death of the child? Most likely a very low percent. I agree with you, though I agree about a person not dicating what another do with their body, but obviously the body of the child is NOT the woman's body is it? If it were, you would be your mother's body. Therefore abortion is about the baby's body, correct? And do we not have laws about hurting others?
Morality is the point, and you have a very low view of human life if your view of abortion is contingent upon factors that can change such as population.
I would agree that a fertilized egg is not a person, but i also believe that it has the property of possibility of personhood. That an abortion destroys this property. Further, I would wonder, what would you claim to be the essential attributes of personhood?
This is not mine, but was provided to me by someone's helpful reply. It does a great job of explaining this position.
Let's put it this way. Many die because of liver-related disease - but we do not require people to donate their livers. Did you know that if you donate a portion of your liver, you'll have a regenerated, fully-functioning one in eight weeks? Eight weeks. You could save a life with only eight weeks worth of bother in your life, but you're not forced to. Many women could save a life with 9 months (or longer, post-birth or post-C-section isn't pretty) of bother in their lives, and they shouldn't be forced either. I don't want any human to die, but I cannot dictate that other humans do a thing (from donating a liver to donating blood to donating a uterus) to prevent this. We can suggest that they do, encourage them to - we can also try to prevent liver disease or unwanted pregnancy. But legally force people to hand over their bodies so that another might live? No. The law should not take away people's rights to choose what happens to their body.
is the casual results of liver disease in others (due to a series of irresponsible actions) of the same level of culpability as a personal unwanted pregnancy? Of course not. This is a faulty analogy. The negative consequences from liver disease are a consequence of over drinking, if someone chooses to partake in that type of lifestytle they must deal with the consequences. A negative consequences of promiscuous lifestyle is (among other things) an unwanted pregnancy. It is an issue of personal responsibility. That being said, even if a set of results or actions occurs in which the lack of responsibility effects others, this is still quite severe (ie. drunk driving kills other people). If a woman has an unwanted pregnancy (most of the cases it is due to irresponsibility) her actions (like that of the drunk driver) extend beyond herself; there is now another person to consider. Just as a drunk driver is still responsible for his unintended consequences, so also is the woman.
note: I understand there are incidences of rape and incest, but i do not think we should make rules based on something that is so rare--rules are normative.
Through but a moment of googling, I have put together the following list of liver related diseases that do not have a connection to willful abuse of alcohol.
This list is not exhaustive but simply helps to illustrate that your point about liver disease being only a consequence of over drinking is faulty. Furthermore, if you substitute any organ in my original post, including kidneys or the donation of blood, the logic still stands. Our government does not force us to donate blood in order to save people, why should it force us to donate a woman's uterus if she does not will it?
The solution isn't banning abortion. You've made a perfect point about how irresponsibility can lead to unwanted pregnancies, but do we want more irresponsible parents? How frightening. The solution is education and an attempt to make contraception available to all who desire it. We're unfortunately in a time where anti-abortion critics also tend to speak out against contraception as well. In fact, the potential incoming President intends to slash funding to programs like planned parenthood, despite none of the federal funds being used for gasp abortions.
When we get up to 7 billion of them, you may do so with my blessing.
[–]DayspringMetaphysics -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
so morality is contingent on the number of people there are?
In some cases, it might. As an example, would you let 10 people die to save 100 people? Or let 1 die to save 1000? Most people would argue for that.
Put that is not relevant to the case in hand.
From a purely legal standpoint, no-one is going to stop you from smashing blue-jay eggs. We've got plenty of them. But we want more eagles, so we discourage any action that is contrary to that goal. Once we're back up to plenty of eagles, then I have no doubt you'll be able to order them for dinner, if that's your idea of a good time.
so you think Utilitarianism is a sound ethical theory?
Broadly speaking, I go for utilitarianism. I also use a hierarchical approach; some things are 'more important' than others. At the top I put "Cause no unnecessary suffering" with a bunch of notes worrying about what 'necessary' means.
wow. dont get lot of those. the consequences of utilitarianism are quite significant. On top of that, if it is utilized as a basis for a normative systems of ethics, then nothing could be intrisincaly evil, because morality is contingent upon benefit and not a "meta-evil" (if you will). If that were the case, then if half of the world's population (plus one person) benefited from the death of the other then it would be morally justified action?
Further, how could degrees of benefit vs suffering be weighed? I think this is crucial as well. Incumbent issues concerning this are, is benefit merely limited to life and death situations? If this is the case, then utilitarianism could hardly be a normative systems because many of the common moral dilemmas are not as severe. Obviously one would want to save more people in incidences of imminent death, but can an a normative system be built from this?
ha, you read my mind, what entails necessary?
exercise is not necessary, but it is good.
Also there is not only a prerogative of not causing suffering, but what about alleviating it once it has occurred? How are values created and presented.
Exciting talk so far
In no particular order;
On top of that, if it is utilized as a basis for a normative systems of ethics, then nothing could be intrisincaly evil, because morality is contingent upon benefit and not a "meta-evil" (if you will).
IMO, the only 'intrinsic evil' is suffering. Any action that produces suffering is bad, and action that prevents suffering is good. You mentioned alleviating suffering; that's near the top, but if I was able to end the suffering of person A by causing the same suffering to person B, I would choose inaction. I wouldn't be happy about it, but that's where my decision would ultimately fall.
Further, how could degrees of benefit vs suffering be weighed? I think this is crucial as well.
There is no good way to quantify suffering, given that it is entirely subjective. I use a few rules to help me figure it out, but I don't have them written in stone tablets or anything. A sampling of the rules:
I consider physical suffering to be generally 'higher' (more critical to not cause) than mental suffering of a similar magnitude. That is, hangnails are far lower than most mental trauma, but I would consider something like a broken leg to be more important than say, some minor depression.
Physical disability is more important than disfigurement.
Suffering that can be quickly eased (hunger) less important than suffering that lingers (injury)
If that were the case, then if half of the world's population (plus one person) benefited from the death of the other then it would be morally justified action?
Wouldn't accept this interpretation, unless is was some serious benefit. I have to weigh the benefit gained against the suffering caused, and death isn't exactly the same as suffering, I count it the same.
I'll let you know when I figure it out. Cutting someone open is 'necessary' if you're a surgeon, and performing surgery. I'm pretty OK with that one.
Obviously one would want to save more people in incidences of imminent death, but can an a normative system be built from this?
Even back in my classes, I had trouble with the idea of 'normative.' Can you explain it using small words?
However, as best I can respond, I would say that preventing deaths is good, provided that the cost of doing so is not too high. For example, I would not save 10 men, and in doing so create some kind of economic collapse that would leave several thousand people out of work, hungry, homeless. (No idea how that would connect. Just using the example)
I think I covered everything. If I missed one that you want me to hit, please advise. Oh, one last:
dont get lot of those.
I'm an engineer. That's how I think.
ha ha. Good stuff. I dont have time to respond right now. I will try to tmrw. Really enjoying this though
Really enjoying this though
Likewise.
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
I wish this could be next to all the annoying anti-choice billboards with saying things like "I had a heartbeat when I was two-weeks old!"
So does a tadpole, so do any farm animals but for some reason super religious christians still aren't vegetarians. odd. Really odd how many politicans are "religious" but pro war, but that a WHOLE 'nutter can o' worms so I'll shut up....right about....now.
[–]Lots42 -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
The first three have no chances of becoming people.
[–]boggart777 -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
jesus. JESUS. STFU, all of you, just,... FUCK. this post is SOOOOOO old. this argument isn't even of the importance anymore! that "thing" you say isn't a person? it's called a blastocyte, and it was a key part of the bickering in the US about stem cell research. and now it's over. so shut the fuck up, you sophomoric karma-whoring, day-late dollar-short internet idiot.
[–]THEREFOREiEXIST -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
The egg is a single cell. So technically it's a 1/2 life. The acorn is asexual, but it's also not an animal, so people can't empathize with it. I don't even know what the fuck is in that third picture. A silk worm? Even still, we don't kill it, we take what it creates, and what it creates is not alive in any sense. Lastly, the fourth picture is of a fertilized egg. That means egg + sperm. It may not be a full life form with all of its organs and structures fully formed, but it's a heck of a lot more alive than anything up here. Like comparing a gameboy color to a PS Vita with regards to power. It's just not a level playing field. Better luck next time OP.
I think your criticism are spot on until I realized you missed the point. It isn't that he's arguing that any of those things aren't life, but that there's a fundamental difference between life and what life creates, in this case, a person. The same way that an acorn will ONE DAY become a tree, but is not yet one, and is not considered one.
[–]superbatarrowlantern 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
If I'm not mistaken, we take the cocoon of the silkworm with the worm still inside and it just dies. So yeah.
[–]Thornnuminous -11 points-10 points-9 points 1 month ago
That is brilliant.
[–]TheKhajiit[S] -12 points-11 points-10 points 1 month ago
I can't take credit, this was the first time i actually found something good on facebook.
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
[–]fireflyinajar 18 points19 points20 points ago
[–]Neynt 9 points10 points11 points ago
[–]fireflyinajar 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]Gemini4t 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]fireflyinajar 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Gemini4t 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]fireflyinajar 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Lemondish 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]fireflyinajar 13 points14 points15 points ago
[–]Lemondish 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]fireflyinajar 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]Lemondish 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]fireflyinajar 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Lemondish 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Whirledpeas1129 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]fireflyinajar 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]qwints 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Sevoth -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]fireflyinajar 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Sevoth -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]fireflyinajar 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Sevoth -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]fireflyinajar 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Sevoth 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]TheKhajiit[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points ago
[–]Soapy9 58 points59 points60 points ago
[–]Silos97 10 points11 points12 points ago
[–]Semper_fi_guy 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]bigbangbilly 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]Gemini4t 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]MysticOath 8 points9 points10 points ago
[–]Tmos67 -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]MysticOath 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Soapy9 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Foreveraloneatheist 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]nermid 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Soapy9 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]THEREFOREiEXIST 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]Whirledpeas1129 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]THEREFOREiEXIST 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Soapy9 -2 points-1 points0 points ago
[–]THEREFOREiEXIST 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]BrutusHFX 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]KentThePineapple 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Whirledpeas1129 -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]youknowwhothisis 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]alittler -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]triotheyoshi 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]bigbangbilly 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]branawesome -2 points-1 points0 points ago
[–]Soapy9 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]ArmaanN -3 points-2 points-1 points ago
[–]Soapy9 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Dirgon 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]mathgod 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–][deleted] ago
[–]DefenestratorOfSouls 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–][deleted] ago
[–]prada_goddess -2 points-1 points0 points ago
[–]blind_wisdom -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]prada_goddess 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]blind_wisdom 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]HaveJobWillFail 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]prada_goddess 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]HaveJobWillFail 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]bfflaalz -2 points-1 points0 points ago
[–]TheKhajiit[S] -2 points-1 points0 points ago
[–]bigbangbilly 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]nermid 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]rick2882 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]gondor2222 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]LegacyHope -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]nermid 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]Lots42 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]LegacyHope 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Lots42 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]LegacyHope 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Lots42 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]LegacyHope 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Lots42 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]LegacyHope 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Lots42 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]slowerthanlight 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]LegacyHope -2 points-1 points0 points ago
[–]slowerthanlight 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]milkyjoe241 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]DayspringMetaphysics -2 points-1 points0 points ago
[–]nermid -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]Lemondish 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]DayspringMetaphysics 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Lemondish 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]DayspringMetaphysics 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Lemondish 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]DayspringMetaphysics 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Lemondish 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]DayspringMetaphysics 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Lemondish 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]jgzman 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]DayspringMetaphysics -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]jgzman 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]DayspringMetaphysics 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]DayspringMetaphysics 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]jgzman 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]DayspringMetaphysics 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]jgzman 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]DayspringMetaphysics 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]jgzman 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points ago
[–]Lots42 -2 points-1 points0 points ago
[–]boggart777 -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]THEREFOREiEXIST -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]Lemondish 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]superbatarrowlantern 0 points1 point2 points ago