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[–]jackbauer616 7 points8 points ago

is it possible there was a poor translation somewhere...

[–]TheHated 7 points8 points ago

What kind of an all powerful god wouldn't make sure his holy book wasn't free from mistranslations?

[–]jackbauer616 1 point2 points ago

ha display power and direct influence once to correct that

[–]TheHated 0 points1 point ago

Display power and direct influence once outside of the bible

FTFY

[–]jackbauer616 0 points1 point ago

yousonice

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[–]GuyMumbles 5 points6 points ago

I see what you are getting at but weren't most of these ideas like the holy trinity developed much later after these books were written? Nowhere in the Bible are these things written. To me, it feels like they tried to come up with a way to explain away the contradictions since the boos were written by different authors.

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[–]GuyMumbles 1 point2 points ago

I get what you are trying to say, but I don't know if that's the best example. A woman can be a wife a sister a mother etc. They aren't mutually exclusive. When you start saying that a father is also the son in relationship to himself the two are incompatible. Why did it take so long to establish this idea?

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[–]GuyMumbles 2 points3 points ago

I was actually trying to be polite.

[–]heb0 0 points1 point ago

A reference to verses that support your argument is more effective than an analogy. Most people understand the difference between an explicit and implicit statement but, until you provide examples of either, you haven't really made an argument.

[–][deleted] ago

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[–]heb0 0 points1 point ago

They do in this case. We're not arguing the validity of the bible at the moment--we're simply arguing whether the bible actually establishes a very important church doctrine explicitly or implicitly. Until you provide evidence, your claim that the bible establishes a trinity holds about as much water as my claim that the bible establishes an underground network of immortal raptor-assassins that will wreak havoc on judgement day.

[–]SavageRS 0 points1 point ago

Good explanation. Exactly what i thought.

[–]maybeadayoff 0 points1 point ago

I have close ups of christians in front of my eyes and your text. Read in Richard Attenboroughs voice

[–]sidurisadvice 1 point2 points ago

You have to remember that Christians believe in the Trinity, that's God in 3 persons. Sort of like water in three forms- solid, liquid, and gas. They're all H20 but can exist in 3 forms and that's what Christians believe about God. So to say that you can and can't see God face to face are both true for Bible believing Christians.

When I was a Christian, hearing other Christians use this analogy made me want to throw things. It’s NOT representative of the doctrine of the Trinity. It actually reduces to non-Trinitarian modalism. The same water does not normally exist in all three states at the same time. According to Chalcedonian Trinitarianism, he Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons of one substance/essence at the same time. The analogy fails.

That said, the overall “solution” to the contradiction you pose is indeed one that Christians often use going back at least to Justin Martyr and Tertullian.

There are several problems with saying that every visible manifestation of god in the OT was actually a Christophany, however. If the god substance is invisible, what makes the Son manifestation of it visible? If it’s merely his human nature that makes him visible, then people aren’t really seeing god, are they?

It also creates a myriad of problems when people go back and look at the OT and try to determine when "YHWH" is referring to the Father, the Son or all of the Trinity. Additionally, all the supposed Christophanies have to be read back into the OT text which creates some really weird situations like in Daniel chapter 7, where Daniel supposedly sees a vision of the “Ancient of Days” (the Father?) and “one like a son of man” (the Son?) come up to him. How did he see both?

Perhaps the better way around the contradiction is by playing with the meanings of words like of “seeing” and “invisible”. IOW, the passages in the NT that speak of god being invisible just mean that he’s not visible at present and the Johannine passages that speak of nobody having seen god really just means that nobody has fully understood/comprehended god, not that nobody has seen some sort of visible manifestation of god. It was solutions like this that Augustine proposed and other systematic theologians have developed since.

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[–]sidurisadvice 3 points4 points ago

If God is infinite and He exists as three different people at the same time, sounds like nothing else in this world

Exactly. This was my standard reply when people asked me to explain it.

And I'm not looking for answers to those questions. I'm satisfied with the conclusion that the Bible does not contain a coherent and consistent theological system any more than an anthology of Greek mythology would.

Water sounded like a good analogy to me

But it's not. It's not just inadequate; what it points to is non-Trinitarian modalism.

[–][deleted] ago

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[–]sidurisadvice 2 points3 points ago

I would be much more willing to concede it serves that purpose if it didn't lend itself to heretical views and require a certain amount of qualification to avoid confusion, but by all means please continue to use it.

While you're at it you can use the husband, son, father analogy as well so you can similarly explain how a single thing can have three different expressions of itself at the same time, conveying a form of Monarchianism.

All of the bad analogies only serve to illustrate just how absurd and confusing an accurate expression of the Trinity really is.

[–][deleted] ago

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[–]sidurisadvice 1 point2 points ago

I don't think it got confusing until you tried to stretch the analogy

It got confusing in 325 CE when a bunch of people got together and said this was supposed to make sense.

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[–]TheHated 1 point2 points ago

Mental gymnastics =/= Cohesive argument.

[–]Kirbyoung 1 point2 points ago

What about Isaiah 6 where he sees God in Heaven?

[–]Remiix12 1 point2 points ago

going on facebook to get people's jimmys russeled

[–]Tlingit_Raven 1 point2 points ago

[–]sqdrn 6 points7 points ago

But the old testament doesn't count.

[–]ucofresh 3 points4 points ago

Only the gay part counts.. Remember!

[–]sqdrn 0 points1 point ago

silly me lol

[–]Dasweb 2 points3 points ago

Yep, this is the response I get for any old testament related quotes.

[–]dslyecix 1 point2 points ago

Yeah, everything in the old testament is a bold-faced lie... but the new one? That's legit.

[–]jshrlzwrld02 0 points1 point ago

GENESIS 32:30

New Living Translation (©2007) Jacob named the place Peniel (which means "face of God"), for he said, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been spared."

[–]wtf_can_i_be 0 points1 point ago

Who is saying they have seen the face of God? Just wondering. I see this a lot, but if it is the devil, or snake, saying this, then I think it would easily be discarded as a lie by most believers, yes?

[–]Irish_mcdick 2 points3 points ago

Care to elaborate a little more about how this is an argument winner?

[–]battledanny1 2 points3 points ago

nope, the meme will suffice.

[–]Athole 2 points3 points ago

It's a direct contradiction.
Genesis 32:30 cannot be true if either John 1:18 or 4:12 are, and vice versa.

If your sect of Christianity hold biblian inerrancy or infallibility true (as many evangelical churches in America do), then the problem is that those who believe the Bible to be true cannot resolve a contradiction with out ultimately questioning the legitimacy of the Bible.
You will either have to say:
* I chose to ignore the fact that there are contradictions in the Bible.
* I accept the fact that there are contradictions in the Bible.

If you chose the former, you have bigger issues than can be solved.
If you chose the latter, you should have a question of faith; if you don't then you really chose the former.

Of course, if you don't hold true the idea that the bible contains no mistakes, then it doesn't matter: you've either consciously or subconsciously already resolved your crisis of faith and are on your first steps toward nihilism. If you use the Bible as a "guide" in which you can pick and chose what morals to draw from it, then you have effectively rewritten your personal Bible. You may believe if Christ and you may believe in God, but the bible, if it is not mistake free, is no more a moral authority than is "On Utility" or the "Groundwork of Metaphysics and Morals".

[–]ILikeChaos -2 points-1 points ago

Wow really? You guys claim to have read the bible and this is the best you can come up with? Whoever posted this clearly doesn't know what the hell they are talking about. Do some more research before you look like an asshole I'm Jewish and I know the whole bible better than you trolls

[–]TheHated 1 point2 points ago

[–]ILikeChaos -1 points0 points ago

Did you make this yourself? Did you do all the research or did you just take something someone else said to make your point? Fight your own battles

[–]TheHated 0 points1 point ago

You are the stupidest person I have ever encountered.

[–]ILikeChaos 0 points1 point ago

Am I now? Well at least I create my own arguments instead of riding on the coattails of other people. Seriously, get some original thoughts

[–]TheHated 0 points1 point ago

Right.

[–]TheHated 0 points1 point ago

I know you're a troll, but for shits and giggles, please try and formulate a cohesive argument no one has EVER made before regarding this subject.

[–]ILikeChaos 0 points1 point ago

I urge you to do the same dear redditor

[–]ChokinMrElmo -1 points0 points ago

Genesis 32 is talking about how Jacob wrestled with an angel for the entire night. After they finished wrestling, and the angel had lost, despite dislocating Jacob's hip, the angel blessed Jacob, touched him on the hip and set the bone back in place.

That's when Jacob said, "I have seen the face of God." He hadn't actually seen God's face, merely an angel. Think of it as an "a = b and b = c, therefore a = c"- type situation.

We can do better than this, guys. If you're going to post something at least give it some context.

[–]saxmanb 1 point2 points ago

Jacob said I "have seen god face to face". It doesn't say "angel of god"--it says god. If the translation is supposed read "angel of god" or "angel" then why does it say "God" ? Don't let theists weasel out of these things. If the passage says one thing but means another, the burden is on the one asserting the contrary meaning. The bible was translated by scholars for a reason.

[–]ChokinMrElmo 0 points1 point ago

Perhaps it was my understanding of the passages that were flawed. I read Genesis 32 straight through and it appeared to me that Jacob was in the company of God's angels based on it literally saying Jacob met with the angels of God in the first passage. Upon further examination, it does say that he had everyone cross the ford, and was left alone. Then out of nowhere he was wrestling with a man.

So it looks like it was God in human form- mah bad.