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all 176 comments

[–]joecan 103 points104 points ago

If it was any other type of propaganda you wouldn't be thinking that. Religion shouldn't be put on its own special platform, and it shouldn't be immune to criticism just because people get offended easily.

[–]Capta1nPlanet 37 points38 points ago

Exactly. It's no different from discussing politics or sports, except for the fact that it is much easier to argue. If someone is going to hold the opinion that there is a supernatural man who created everything, it shouldn't be considered taboo to discuss.

[–]IanTTT 2 points3 points ago

While agree agree it shouldn't be taboo, faith isn't rational or trivial. Faith is emotional and people with faith are emotionally invested in their beliefs. The taboo exist because those discussions upset and divide people.

[–]Krovixis 1 point2 points ago

That same faith also upsets and divides people. I honestly think that placing a taboo to maintain the status quo just leads to the perpetuation of beliefs and will continue to cause conflict.

It's sort of like peeling off a band-aid, isn't it?

[–]colinsteadman 0 points1 point ago

Do they think god is a man? Do they think he has legs and arms and a scrotum? I wonder what they think he is made of. I wonder where they think he lives? Does he need something to stand on, or does he float around in space? What exactly do Christians think he is?

I'm not really asking, just trying to make any Christians who might be reading this think.

[–]Capta1nPlanet 0 points1 point ago

I think that the problem is most Christians don't want to think about it because they are afraid to. A lot of people that I know have a religion but aren't very religious, they don't really follow their faith and probably haven't read the bible or whatever their respective book is. People would rather not think about it and believe as default than give up their insurance policy

[–]bleedingheartsurgery 0 points1 point ago

Religion allows you to stop thinking. That's why I think it is harmful.

[–]releasedtruth 2 points3 points ago

Something I read from Sam Harris regularly. Popularity pulls down the veil of sanctity. Explains people complaining when I deride Beiber Fever.

[–]ellivibrutp[S] 13 points14 points ago

For the record, I never said I felt there was anything WRONG with destroying everything someone believes in :)

I think those posts funny more than anything.

I find it interesting that you know how i feel about various types of propaganda though... I didn't say anything about that either. If I was concerned with a different form of propaganda, i probably would have posted this in a different subreddit.

[–]abasslinelow 1 point2 points ago

I think he was trying to make the point that, Person A were spreading Nazi propaganda, you wouldn't fault Person B for attempting to destroy everything that Person A believes in.

[–]ellivibrutp[S] 2 points3 points ago

Yeah, I wouldn't... and I am not faulting atheists in this post either. I think most of these kinds of facebook posts are just dandy.

[–]abasslinelow 4 points5 points ago

'Most' being the operative word, for sure. Even I have to admit, some of them go waaaaay too far.

[–]ellivibrutp[S] 2 points3 points ago

Yes, some do... If you look at the new section of r/atheism, you can see all of the complete jackasses who want internet points for being mean to the real life friends. It is sad. Luckily they get voted down pretty quickly.

[–]bleedingheartsurgery 0 points1 point ago

But these real life friends think they deserve to burn forever in hell. And or stop being friends with them if they find out what they believe. Who's mean?

[–]SockofBadKarma -3 points-2 points ago

But neither of you know him or what his opinions are beyond this image macro. He may well do exactly what joecan said he wouldn't do, and as he said, if he WERE to do so, he would put it on a different subreddit.

And I'm certainly someone else who would do the same thing. Yes, if someone was spreading Nazi propaganda and I stepped up to attempt to destroy everything that person believes in via heated debate(or, rather, the subsection of their beliefs that include Nazi ideology), I would fully expect an onlooker to say that that's what I'm doing because that's what I'm doing. Just because I'd be engaged in the willful act of trying to sabotage a deeply-seated belief doesn't intrinsically make my actions bad (in fact, I'd argue, and most people on this subreddit would agree, that that's actually moral behavior), nor does it imply that the belief I'm attacking is a special case. That Bender's face is on the image macro, which instantly arouses connotations of general douchebaggery to anyone who's watched Futurama (ie all of Reddit), is simply an incidental effect of, well, quoting Bender and doing it in an image macro format.

joecan shouldn't presume to know a person better than they know themselves (or to declare that he knows how they'd act in a hypothetical scenario). Elliv could just as easily put this on r/politics, change "Christian propaganda" to "neoconservative propaganda" (not that there's much of a difference), and be just as justified in his assessment.

In other news, I've just realized (or rather, remembered) that I have a serious fetish for parenthetical statements.

[–]ShadowAssassinQueef 0 points1 point ago

TLDR

[–]joecan 0 points1 point ago

The "you" in my statement was more a generalization, and probably could be replaced with "people" or another appropriate term. The image came across as sarcasm, and I know a lot of people that would say similarly sarcastic statements to illustrate how they think criticizing religion should be off limits because it is deeply offensive. That's what my post was in response to.

[–]ellivibrutp[S] 0 points1 point ago

point taken.

[–]ZumaZoom 0 points1 point ago

While this is true, sometimes when I watch Fox I'll see them get riled up about how people do not attack Muslims as much as they do Christians. They always leave the question open as if they want you to say, "because it's more risky to do that."

I'd say all religions should be treated equally, but you have to be weary of the crazy and then you also have to worry about the crazy-crazy.

[–]joecan 1 point2 points ago

I'm not really sure if what you're saying is supposed to be agreeing or disagreeing with what I said. But I will say this, as much as I think FOX News has its head up their ass, that point you bring up is valid, we tend to give Islam a break. Though I do think when they bring it up it's much more to do with them trying to say Christianity is above reproach, and Islam is 100% evil.

I don't think all religions should be treated equally, some are more crazy than others, and some have more power than others. Both of those have to be taken into consideration. Right now Islam is being used to recruit, brainwash, and enslave people into doing some very dangerous things, and Christianity in America is being used to influence politics into promoting bigotry and anti-science nonsense. Both are worth arguing against, and both should be able to be argued against without moderate believers being personally offended when you point out issues with parts of their religions and fellow believers.

[–]Blowjob_Chairman 0 points1 point ago

Not all religious propaganda can hurt people. Some even choose to believe it! It's crazy I know, but I hear they enjoy being involved in a religion. And get this, not everyone wants to force others into it! But it goes even deeper... some even help other, without forcing religion on them.

[–]joecan 2 points3 points ago

Religion shouldn't be immune to criticism, somehow me stating that made you upset about things I didn't say. At no point did I say religion is 100% evil, nor did I say that believers don't get benefit or enjoyment out of believing. However, some things religions do & teach are wrong, and pointing those things out shouldn't be off-limits, and shouldn't result in believers being personally offended.

[–]misterfanwank 12 points13 points ago

Actually, I consider "destroying everything you ever believed in" to be a kindness.

[–]immarried 17 points18 points ago

For me its more of a, You said something stupid, and I am going to make you feel stupid for saying it.

[–]NotaClipaMagazine 1 point2 points ago

I hardly see people trying to make other people feel stupid. There may be some "look at this stupid christian I was talking to" posts. But, for the most part I think people are just trying to correct people so that hopefull they do not contintune the believe that the earth is 6000 years old or that evolution does not exist or that homosexuals are abominations. It will probably be interperated like that though as it is an attack on their world view.

[–]immarried 2 points3 points ago

And that is where the "You're GOING TO HELL TO BURN FOREVER" started. Yeah, I have been there.

[–]ShadowAssassinQueef 0 points1 point ago

Interpretated* FTFY

[–]bleedingheartsurgery 0 points1 point ago

That's how stupidity is dealt with in ever other facet of life. Religion made it taboo, that's why so many ppl believe it in this day and age. If ppl were allowed to laugh at it throughout history, it wouldn't be half as popular today.

[–]swordtothechest -1 points0 points ago

I used to tell people they were stupid for saying stupid things, until I took a sword to the chest.

[–]ChicagoRunner 3 points4 points ago

This is the worst novelty account I have ever seen.

[–]immarried 0 points1 point ago

Must have been the south?

[–]dumnezero 1 point2 points ago

arrowtotheknee must be taken, right?

[–]Talphin 10 points11 points ago

My dad once asked me why I set out to destroy the beliefs of so many people... I replied: "I'm not destroying them. I am replacing them with better ones."

[–]Karashney 8 points9 points ago

Not to say that in this specific instance you aren't right in that statement but...isn't that an extremely arrogant way of thinking?

[–]Capercaillie 5 points6 points ago

When did being correct become the same thing as being arrogant?

[–]ThatIsMyHat 4 points5 points ago

When you assume that you're automatically correct and that anyone who disagrees is wrong.

[–]PraiseBeToScience 0 points1 point ago

Hmm, seems like this argument is far more relevant to the theist, since they are the ones making the claim.

[–]Capercaillie -1 points0 points ago

So, Christianity = arrogance.

[–]Karashney 0 points1 point ago

I suppose around the same time that having no proof of a god meant that there never will be any proof of a god and thus there is no god. I don't pretend to know that there is 100% without a doubt no god of any sort. I choose to believe that there is not because I have not been presented with valid evidence to the contrary.

[–]Capercaillie 1 point2 points ago

Yeah. I guess those people that say that there is no such thing as fairies are arrogant too, then? It's pretty arrogant to say that there are no gremlins living in my refrigerator. Arrogant.

[–]dumnezero 0 points1 point ago

While it may be interpreted so, it's still true. And if you value truth, you can't let a fear of arrogance (being arrogant) stand in your way.

Also, technically, everyone does this all the time in varying degrees. People changing people's minds.

[–]ThatIsMyHat 2 points3 points ago

I'm not destroying them. I am replacing them with better ones mine.

FTFY

[–]cuttlefish1054 5 points6 points ago

It's a good thing religious people never choose how to act based on believing things that aren't true. Otherwise there might be, you know, reasons to eliminate belief in false things.

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2008/11/why-we-care-what-other-people-believe-religion-race-and-prop-8.html

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2009/11/armor-of-god.html

[–]Aperfectmoment 1 point2 points ago

Its not because they are part of a pack or herd mentality.

Its because their herd mentality/pack votes against the herd/pack mentality of the future. They will all eventually die out...its just how many lives are ruined along the way.

[–]ldex0596 2 points3 points ago

...with blackjack and hookers.

[–]ElBobo 2 points3 points ago

Hurt feelings is not a good reason to shut up when a great ignorance threatens peace.

[–]rainbowsalamander 5 points6 points ago

If what you believe in, what you place all of your faith for this life in, is something that has no rational basis, then pointing that out might do you some good in the long run.

[–]MTFBWY 6 points7 points ago

I don't want to crush their beliefs. I am just getting back at the kid in 3rd grade who told me there was no Santa.

[–]Brushstroke 0 points1 point ago

Have you considered that maybe we're doing them a favor?

[–]gamblingbeat 0 points1 point ago

What did they say? How did they react?

[–]shebeen57 0 points1 point ago

Oh come on, who believes in that fairytale nonesense.

[–]mack2028 0 points1 point ago

It is not assault it is surgery.

[–]unsaid14017 1 point2 points ago

If I make an atheist post on Facebook, I'm more than willing to accept any theist's objections. I have no expectation that my beliefs (or lack thereof) be unchallenged by scrutiny or debate.

[–]Krovixis 0 points1 point ago

Ironic, since Bender actually met a sort of God in series.

Does that give him a rank among the most hardcore fictional atheists?

[–]Prezombie 0 points1 point ago

Pointing out that Santa isn't real doesn't destroy Santa.

[–]meedeeohcah 3 points4 points ago

It destroys the child.

[–]ShadoutRex 1 point2 points ago

No it doesn't. Children learn the truth about Santa all the time and go on being children.

[–]meedeeohcah 0 points1 point ago

I'm actually surprised someone took it seriously

[–]egosumFidius 1 point2 points ago

"I'm sorry what I did hurt you, but those chains around your brain were really tight, they must've been cutting off blood."

[–]Owlsrule12 0 points1 point ago

Yes, and I love bender for that episode.

[–]drossglop 0 points1 point ago

You could apply this to Christians trying to convert people to Christianity as well.

[–]TooSentimental 5 points6 points ago

If I make an atheist post on Facebook, I'm more than willing to accept any theist's objections. I have no expectation that my beliefs (or lack thereof) be unchallenged by scrutiny or debate.

[–]dumnezero 0 points1 point ago

And thus we must look at the the content, the value, not just the form.

[–]DebunkingAtheists 0 points1 point ago

Told you, Atheists have an agenda and a dogma.

[–]ellivibrutp[S] 1 point2 points ago

Who on this planet doesn't have an agenda?

[–]DebunkingAtheists 0 points1 point ago

Some more obvious then others: An American Humanist named John Dunphy said in 1983:

"I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being. These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach, regardless of the educational level--preschool day care or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new--the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism."

[–]ellivibrutp[S] 0 points1 point ago

Yeah, that is a pretty awesome quote. But I asked: who on this planet DOESN'T have an agenda?

I am pretty sure someone without an agenda wouldn't bother digging up that quote for me.

[–]DebunkingAtheists 0 points1 point ago

Touché, I has agenda :7)

[–]Singular_Thought -1 points0 points ago

Undiagnosed mental illness.

[–]TheonGryJy -4 points-3 points ago

If you believe in god, you go to heaven.

If you don't you go to hell.

If he doesn't exist, nothing is lost.

You guys have no common sense.

[–]themacguffinman 1 point2 points ago

Pascal's Wager? Really? You sound like a man who has never read arguments against his beliefs.

What god do you choose? If you believe in Yahweh, you go to hell in every religion there is. False dichotomy.

[–]TheonGryJy -4 points-3 points ago

Better chance of avoiding hell than you

[–]themacguffinman 0 points1 point ago

No you don't. The Flying Spaghetti Monster will get you. He is the one true god.

[–]TheonGryJy 4 points5 points ago

Oh come on, who believes in that fairytale nonesense?

[–]themacguffinman 2 points3 points ago

Dammit. I fell for it :(

[–]Goyyou 0 points1 point ago

Don't you see the same can be said about "your" god?

[–]TheonGryJy 0 points1 point ago

Did you know the big bang theory contradicts the first law of physics.

"Matter cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be converted from one form to another"

[–]usurious 1 point2 points ago

Aside from being based entirely out of fear, the problem is that you present this lame argument as if there are only two options. It is the definition of a false dichotomy. You can't just eliminate the possibility of all other religions because you don't happen to believe them. You also have to be open not only to other established religions, but possibilities such as a god who might favor the non-believers for just being honest. As long as we're throwing ideas around without evidence, there are limitless possibilities.

[–]meedeeohcah 0 points1 point ago

So believe because what's there to lose?

[–]TheonGryJy 3 points4 points ago

Exactly. What harm could it do?

[–]ellivibrutp[S] -1 points0 points ago

It isn't the personal cost... It is the cost to society, and that cost huge right now...

It's pretty selfish to look at it from a personal stance and ignore everyone else. A Christian believing god will provide doesn't feed the hungry. Someone who doesn't believe god will provide is more likely to do something that will actually make a difference (usually through science). They do this because they aren't waiting for a miracle, or even a sign from god. They just know it is the right thing to do.

[–]TheonGryJy -3 points-2 points ago

But without christian morals to guide the human race in the dark ages, we would all have remained savages today. Also, Albert Einstein was a christian, and so are the many US presidents who improved society today.

[–]ellivibrutp[S] 2 points3 points ago

please be sarcasm, please be sarcasm, please be sarcasm.

[–]TheonGryJy -3 points-2 points ago

Without Albert Einsteins hard work that he did, we wouldn't have such great things which resulted from his works.

[–]ellivibrutp[S] 3 points4 points ago

I am serious, I have a hard time distinguishing between subtly brilliant sarcasm and real life idiots.

Albert Einstein was not a christian. Please tell me you know that.

[–]usurious 2 points3 points ago

You forgot the third option. Troll.

[–]ellivibrutp[S] 1 point2 points ago

Ahhh! I DID forget!

[–]TheonGryJy -3 points-2 points ago

"You disagree with me so you must be trolling"

Thankfully the bible teaches others to respect all beliefs. You have a right to yours.

[–]meedeeohcah 0 points1 point ago

Wait...but it's not a belief it's a fact?

[–]TheonGryJy 0 points1 point ago

Because you believe it to be fact

[–]usurious 0 points1 point ago

Why is that in quotation marks? Are yo quoting me? I didn't say that. It doesn't even matter, troll or not your arguments are bad. I was just pointing out that he left an important option off the list.

The Bible strictly forbids worshiping false gods. It is punishable by eternal torture. I wouldn't exactly call that respecting all beliefs.

[–]TheonGryJy -3 points-2 points ago

Wikipedia? Really? What an unreliable source.

[–]ellivibrutp[S] 1 point2 points ago

okay... show me ANY source at all that claims he is a christian... please.

[–]TheonGryJy 0 points1 point ago

He grew up a retard and ended up creating a nuke. If that's not a miracle, I don't know what is. Surely it was gods work and he would only maek that effort if he believed in him.

And before you say it, no, that does not mean retards believe in god.

[–]meedeeohcah 0 points1 point ago

WHAT?! He wasn't retarded! He had developmental problems. There's speculation that he had autism or asperger but not retardation. AND A MIRACLE?! FOR MAKING A NUKE?! I mean i guess? Hell even America was like oh oops... and we love to blow stuff up.

[–]ellivibrutp[S] 0 points1 point ago

feeds troll mmmmm! troll chow! nom nom nom!

[–]ellivibrutp[S] 1 point2 points ago

"You may call me an agnostic" -albert einstein. I have never heard of a christian saying that.

[–]Peacecrafts -3 points-2 points ago

Albert Einstein was a christian

citation?

[–]Peacecrafts -2 points-1 points ago

but how to you know which god to believe in? the Muslim one? the Jewish one? the Christian one? Flying spaghetti monster?

[–]TheonGryJy -1 points0 points ago

Easy.. I believe in the one true god, and assume they are all the real god.

[–]Peacecrafts -1 points0 points ago

oh, you better hope the christian god isn't the real one then. I heard he doesn't like people who believe that other gods are real, and those people go to hell.

[–]Capercaillie -2 points-1 points ago

I think everyone that posts here is familiar with Pascal's Wager, and has rejected it. You know, it's even in the FAQs.

But if a god doesn't exist, and you live like one does, what have you lost? Only the truth. Only the chance to live your own life in the way you want. Only the opportunity to be a human.

[–]TheonGryJy 0 points1 point ago

Are you saying christians can't live the way they want to? If so, I assure you you are wrong.

[–]Capercaillie 0 points1 point ago

Really? Evidence to the contrary.

[–]brainburger -1 points0 points ago

This is actually my view. Well, not everything they believe in. Just the harmful stuff.

Love the faithful, but hate faith.

[–]truthie -5 points-4 points ago

Don't worry, r/atheists misunderstanding christians misunderstanding the bible isn't going to shatter anyone's faith. The constant misunderstanding of different dogmas by r/atheists is probably a lot more likely to strengthen some christians faith, since it's so often totally clear that the r/atheist has no fucking clue what they're refuting.

[–]falcy 4 points5 points ago

The fact that everyone interprets the bible so differently is a good sign that its origins are not divine. A good author is clear and unambiguous when it is needed.

But the reason why the Bible isn't to be believed, is the complete lack of evidence for any of its extreme claims. Anybody can make extreme claims.

[–]truthie 2 points3 points ago

Your reply has nothing to do with my comment. I wasn't sticking up for the bible, I was making an observation about r/atheism's generally terrible arguing style. But at least I gave you an opportunity to post your circlejerking comment, I'm sure it will do well.

[–]falcy 0 points1 point ago

No, my comment completely agrees with your comment.

Everybody misunderstands the Bible according to somebody. And people keep fighting over the correct interpretation. Muslims and especially Christians, but even some atheists.

Instead they should realize that interpretation does not really matter in this case. What matters is the endless sea of disagreement about everything in the Bible.

[–]MrKequc 0 points1 point ago

I don't understand how it is you feel that it is the atheist's responsibility to know every detail about the other person's faith. Why isn't it the responsibility of the person who believes something to understand that belief well enough that they can respond to criticism adequately?

[–]truthie -3 points-2 points ago

You're refuting an argument I'm not making. Very typical of the logic used by fans of this subreddit.

[–]MrKequc 2 points3 points ago

What are you talking about?

[–]truthie -3 points-2 points ago

Your reply has nothing to do with my comment. You said:

I don't understand how it is you feel that it is the atheist's responsibility to know every detail about the other person's faith.

Not only did I not say that, I don't expect it. It's just something you made up and then scolded me for.

You're pretty confused.

[–]MrKequc 0 points1 point ago

I wasn't scolding you, I was saying that it isn't the atheists responsibility to know everything about what they are trying to get a better grip on. It is the theist's responsibility to educate the atheist about what it is that the theist is saying are facts and the atheist is encroaching.

You were saying that atheists apparently don't know what they are talking about regarding theistic matters, so it absolutely was a relevant response.

[–]meedeeohcah -1 points0 points ago

He's talking about how people just go on to r/Atheism and spend 2 days on it and become a full blown atheist. AKA my brother lol

[–]truthie -3 points-2 points ago

Nope, that wasn't what I was saying. I said what I meant, it's right there in writing.

And make no mistake, I'm not talking about atheists, I'm talking about r/atheists. I made that pretty clear, but you are clearly easily baffled.

[–]MrKequc 1 point2 points ago

You are a moron.

[–]truthie -1 points0 points ago

You can't read and then understand what you read.

[–]meedeeohcah 0 points1 point ago

To be fair the same can be said for Christians alike not r/Christianity but straight Christians.

[–]xphateslater -1 points0 points ago

Well a Christian trying to destroy an atheist's beliefs is not the same as an atheist trying destroying a christian's. Atheism is based on proven fact, whereas Christianity is based completely on faith. Atheists can take criticism because their beliefs are proven fact. Christians on the other hand have a hard time with criticism because all they have is faith.

[–]bleedingheartsurgery 1 point2 points ago

I love how James randi has $100 000 for abyone who can prove something supernatural. In 40 years no one has been able to experience a supernatural occurance to get a million dollars. Yet they have these personal experiences that prove supernatural things happen. Lol.

[–]bunnysuitman -1 points0 points ago

'if you hide your ignorance no one will ever hit you and you will never learn" ~Ray Bradbury

[–]mantis911 0 points1 point ago

Do you know who else had propaganda?... Nazis!

[–]MrMadcap -2 points-1 points ago

Which, if anything, would only benefit them.

In the end, they will thank us.

[–]JohnFuckingLennon -1 points0 points ago

they will tank us.

FTFY

[–]Adios_numero_two -2 points-1 points ago

Soon they'll be sending Christmas cards to kids saying he isn't real.