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Why can't religious people grasp this concept? (imgur.com)
submitted 1 month ago by new_atheist94
[–]tyrhogue 44 points45 points46 points 1 month ago
Religious people always have the need to convert as many people as possible. I think it comes from the fact that most of them don't entirely believe it. They think that if others also believe, it makes theirs seem less ridiculous. If no one believes, they'll see how silly it is. But if they can convince others, they can justify their beliefs.
[–]jturneraudit 30 points31 points32 points 1 month ago
Conversion is not taking away freedoms. It is a person's exercise of their own freedom to change their beliefs.
OPs post refers to legally forcing others to follow behaviors that are against their own belief system. Religion is just the thin excuse of the unimaginative proponents of the Victorian moral tradition when they attempt to use the force of law to oppress behaviors of which their culture does not approve. Their actions constitute an unethical application of legal force, not an attempt to convert.
[–]masuabie 16 points17 points18 points 1 month ago
Except child indoctrination.
[–]jturneraudit 6 points7 points8 points 1 month ago
All children are subject to indoctrination. Cultural values are learned. While you might find many fundamentalists' value judgements offensive, and also their methods for passing them on to their children, there is little practical difference between their children and the children of any other group with regard to their manner of absorbing cultural values.
Let's keep the accusation where it belongs. Some fundamentalists are teaching their children to be afraid of tolerance, and to react towards difference with hate. Some of these people are engaging in psychological terrorism against the tolerant majority in order to polarize voters along declared social lines. These people are murderous fools, and dangerous to proponents of all beliefs and social groups.
Indoctrination, though, is only an effect of normal parenting and socialization. You wouldn't be offended by these behaviors if you hadn't been prepared to be so offended by your own cultural indoctrination.
So let's keep the message clear. Intolerance is not acceptable, and our society will reject anyone who acts on their intolerance. If you want to live and work in this society, you must act with tolerance, and teach your children to do the same.
[–]masuabie 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
It's one thing to teach your children your beliefs, it's another to send them to camps for said belief. I went to a Catholic Summer camp for 6 years. I consider parents who do that crossing the line and taking away their child's freedom.
[–]Monster_Claire 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
It really depends upon the camp.
I went to a camp that only said grace before meals and another that had worship in the morings and devotions at night.
The first camp was cold and restrictive and demanded conformity. The second camp was really friendly, crazy fun and praised individuality, creativity, asking questions and being as sily as posible. No one was forced to do anything.
Guess which one I wanted to return to despite not being religious?
[–]jturneraudit 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I sympathize. I hated church camp. My skin still crawls just remembering. My parents just couldn't understand why I hated summer camp. I blame Disney. Those life-wreckers just have been putting out those horrendous coming of age summer camp films since the 1970's.
[–]eponym_ 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Yeah, but how can it be considered an "application of legal force"? The mores are what the mores are, the democratic process reflects them and at the end of the day you just have people on both sides trying to avoid being culturally persecuted
Legal force possesses no morals. It refers only to the power of any government to punish, to the point of death, any behavior in its citizens. An extreme example of immoral application of legal force would be the cultural revolution under Mao. Another would be the rigid social and education laws of Germany under Nazi rule.
While the scale differs, the application of legal force in our democratic republic can also be morally and/or ethically wrong. To persecute a cultural minority is wrong. To use legal force in the process is dangerous for national well being, as it leads to a police state mentality and feeds fascist and other totalitarian tendencies in the government.
That is one of the major reasons I think OPs post is important enough for comment, no matter how many times similar posts have been made.
So the Christian stance on gay marriage threatens America with fascism? Like communism did in the 50's or Islamic fundamentalism in the 00's? Is KFC, in your opinion, the best alternative to homosexual concentration camps?
No, biblical marriage is, according to Paul, a physical representation of the spiritual reality of the relationship between Christ and Church. Those who are not members of the body of which Christ is the head are not bound by the disciplines required of us.
We are called to live according to the example set for us by Christ and the saints. Those who have not believed or, believing, have not followed, exist under the law no matter what behaviors they exhibit. Therefore, as the legal definition of marriage can never, that is NEVER, meet the biblical definition of marriage. The debate against it on a religious basis is invalid.
To answer your first question, yes. In order to legally oppress any social group requires that a society empower their government to perform actions that should be strictly limited or outright prohibited. Once the pertinent powers are granted to the government, they are available for the oppression or suppression of any social group or cultural movement.
German intellectual Martin Niemoller's famous quote relates directly to the effects of this mechanism. " First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me."
This kind of activity, whether people are trying to prohibit gay marriage, traditional child disciplinary actions, independent education methods, or firearm ownership, makes me afraid for my country.
Would you agree with the following statement: Traditional marriage is between a man and woman (and if you can't answer yes or no, that probably means yes)
If yes, that means you support "non traditional" marriage, right? And if you support "non traditional" marriage that means you're probably going to upset "traditional" people, right? So if the traditions these people have are so foreign to your refined sensibilities that you feel threatened by them politically, how in the wide world of sports is that any different from a Christian feeling threatened by gay marriage? How is there any less hypocrisy or ignorance involved? Ya know?
I don't feel threatened by them politically. They don't threaten me, or my way of life at all. I am monogamous, married to one woman, love my kids, etc. I am the embodiment of the tradition they claim to be fighting for.
However, history has provided numerous examples of the results of legal suppression of cultural movements. Such actions have never resulted in positive, long-term health for a nation.
Using legal force in this matter is using the power of the gun to stop behaviors. The law is the nations gun. Those who break laws are punished and if they fight to avoid being punished they are shot. The force of law is government directed firepower. You do not want a government that can prevent gay marriage because it offends you. The government with the power to enforce that prevention will have equal power to take action against you or me if someone is offended by our religion, lifestyle, beliefs, or behavior.
Everything you're saying only makes sense if you flip the word "traditional" upside down; in other words, if gay marriage as an institution (in the separate OR equal sense) has a "tradition" worth defending then it should BE defended, except, instead, what you and the people who downvoted me tend to do is "advocate" the institution of gay marriage, call this view "progressive", argue how "tradition" is antithetical to "progress", then argue that the reason gay people should have marriage equality is because said tradition is not only sacred but a "right".....makes. No. Sense
Number 1, I don't vote in my own arguments. Don't get upset by downvotes. You know people tend to vote on content instead of contribution.
Secondly, I never said that tradition was a reason to allow anything. I said it was a bad reason to legally prohibit them.
Tradition is great. It ties people together in cultural identities. It helps us feel secure, rooted, and fulfilled. It is a bad source for law.
I don't really care about gay marriage as much as I care about living in a free society that does not allow its government the power to prevent behaviors based on tradition. I care about my freedom. I care about being free to live and prosper and to help my kids live free and prosper in turn. If people keep handing the government more power because somebody has offended their delicate sensibilities, there won't be any freedoms left by the time my grandkids are born.
Don't you get it? Legislation based on your tradition validates legislation based on the traditions of anyone who can get enough political clout. If a marriage law based on Victorian moralism is passed, offended Muslims could see Sharia law instituted in the US, and third-generation atheists could pursue legislation prohibiting public exercise of religion. Legally, there would be no difference.
[–]LE_LE_LE_STFU -3 points-2 points-1 points 1 month ago
NO. LE FUNDIES ARE LETERALLY HITLER.
[–]slayerdx 17 points18 points19 points 1 month ago
Or you know, Religious people want to convert because they truly believe they are saving you from an eternal damnation. In the case where God exists, then hell would also exist. That Hell would be a truly fucking terrifying place according to the descriptions presented in the bible.
[–]Ortizjoel21 12 points13 points14 points 1 month ago
That is true, some of them actually want to help you go to heaven
In the meanwhile, I go around trying to convince people that they must worship my unicorn god that shits rainbows, but they keep telling me that I am crazy
[–]Adrian_Alastair 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
The Flying Spaghetti Monster approves.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
I feel heaven and hell are used as scare tactics and some people just take it way to far.
[–]SueZbell 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Used as carrot/stick parenting tool for those too indoctrinated themselves and/or too lazy and/or too busy and/or too currupt to be able to teach their children right from wrong by example in order to keep them out of jail.
[–]EdinMiami 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
If god is real, hell is not. Think about it and see if you don't come to that conclusion.
[–]hint_of_sage 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
It really depends on the type of god you're talking about. Many gods can coexist with a negative afterlife.
[–]EdinMiami 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I would argue that those are not gods but entities who are just more powerful/advanced than we are.
[–]ingliprisen 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I think it comes down to the fact that they don't actually believe in 'freedom of religion', instead they believe that their religion is the only true path. They only use the whole 'freedom of religion' when it benefits them
[–]RedsforMeds 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Interestingly you're not far off. There was a study done that was able to correlate false confidence and doubt in one's own beliefs. The more a person doubts themselves, the more vitriolic and passionate they're argument to persuade you is. It's as if they try to convince themselves at the same time as they try and convince you. Here is a news article about it, and here is the source material.
[–]tyrhogue 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Thanks! I've known many people who are passionate about their religion and a few months later have forsaken it entirely!
[–][deleted] 1 month ago
[deleted]
[–]Tself 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
contrary to your belief, i actually started as an atheist in a former communist country.
This was never stated.
now, you can't then go on and conclude that all religious people are dumb or silly.
Also never stated.
actually many people at my church are very distinguished scholars
I just want to state that there are a lot of evil people out there that are just as distinguished. I'm not saying that your church's people are evil by any means, but just because you have an education doesn't mean you are devoid of illogical thinking.
I agree with your main sentiment here, and think it is a pretty pretentious belief for atheists to think that theists only want to convert people because of their low confidence (and I'm a very staunch atheist/antitheist here). If I thought I knew the only way to get away from an eternity of postmortem torture, then of course I'd want to spread word. Based on that, I actually think a bit differently on the issue. I think most theists are really agnostic theists, and perhaps more agnostic than they would admit to themselves. Because it would be almost immoral for you to NOT be preaching daily, trying to save people from eternal punishment from an omniscient being. But I think doubt takes over, and you realize such action would be ridiculous, because the stance is quite ridiculous to begin with.
[–]JoshSN 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
[I]t is sheer simply laughable to return hatred to the haters[.]
Not according to game theory. According to what I understand, the best strategy is to start off by giving love (ok, they don't use the word love, more often it is trust) to everyone new by default, but if someone starts giving you hate in return, it is stupid to do anything but return hate.
It's possibly true that we would all be a bit better off if we returned hate only after the second instance of hate (turning the other cheek, once) but I don't know of any research which says that would be true.
[–]hint_of_sage 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Please use proper capitalization. If you identify yourself as a religious person on the part of the site where the non-religious congregate, you would want to represent yourself and those associated with you in the best light.
Improper grammar, spelling, and capitalization make people think you may be less educated than you really are. Represent yourself in the most positive way, by trying to accurately portray how educated you are, to help your comment be taken more seriously.
[–]SueZbell 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Yes, as in, just who are they trying to convince.
[–]faction60 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
if you legitimately believed that everyone who doesn't believe what you do will spend eternity in horrible unimaginable pain you'd probably want to convert them too, unless you're a fucking asshole
[–]IArgueWithAtheists 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I think it comes from the fact that most of them don't entirely believe it.
Or, you know, the fact that their religion actually commands them to.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Actually, nearly every religion tells it's followers to convert other people. I'm religious myself, and though I don't believe in judging anyone based on their religious beliefs, I do know that conversion is not an attempt to take someone's freedom.
[–]brownzilla99 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Mostly just western religions.
[–]Agrees_With_Faggots 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Agreed!
[–]ZeraskGuilda 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
.... Wow... Uh... I guess those of us who hold the Ancient religions are really out of place then...
I'm a Kemetic.. We don't really give a damn what people do, sure there are some specific cultural things that we don't allow outsiders into, but we don't force anything on anyone...
Believe what you want... Sure, my beliefs may seem kinda silly to some folk, but that's ok. My faith encourages the arts and sciences... We just happen to insist on celebrating a lot and trying new things too..
[–]LE_LE_LE_STFU -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
You're a clown. People try to convert others because that's what they think is right.
You know, saving people from eternal damnation? You might think it's dumb, but they don't, and they're doing it as a kindness.
[–]EdinMiami 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
So attempting to make sure that people continue not to get the same rights you have here on earth is actually an attempt to save them from eternal damnation?
With friends like that who needs enemies?
[–]herbertstrasse 14 points15 points16 points 1 month ago
Conversely, why can't liberals grasp this concept?
[–]spitz 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
it's not much of a concept. Most people are advocates of using force(including guns and various armed forces to operate them) to control others and using their values to determine when and why. This kind of concept ignores basic points like that.
It's kind of like the people who complain about the government stealing their money to give to other people while ignoring the nature of taxation. They're fine with the government forcibly taking people's money against their will, they just want to have a little more control over the theft and are disappointed when other people have leverage over them.
As long as they keep treating their personal values as absolutes everyone else is supposed to take for granted, we'll be eternally stuck with people standing in circles making shouting banal points like the one in this image at each other while shaking their heads at all of the people surrounding them who just don't get it.
[–]iamthemindfreak 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
The reason they don't get it is because it's been hardwired and brainwashed into them their whole lives. People love their comfortable ways of life and it's not easy for them to change it once they're in one.
Grasped and agreed by this progressive.
Religion is not something that can be "taken away". It's traditions may be supressed -- possibly, though unlikely -- even out of existence; however, logic and reason can INFORM a person and religion can then be abandoned.
[–]SueZbell -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
From my vantage point:
It is the conservatives that cannot grasp that they should not use their religion to take away a woman's freedom to choose--freedom to make their own medical and/or reproductive health choices.
It is the conservatives that cannot grasp that they should not use their religion to take away another persons freedom to choos their own lifestyle and/or life partner.
[–]Latipacohcranaist 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
What about libertarians?
[–]l1username1l 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
I feel like I've seen this a half a dozen times in the last few months.
[–]gondor2222 9 points10 points11 points 1 month ago
Reminds me of a quote I heard: "Religion is like a penis. It's ok to have one but it's not ok to wave it around in public"
[–]mrluxces 13 points14 points15 points 1 month ago
OR: "Religion is like a penis. It's OK to have one but it's not OK to shove it down someone else's throat."
[–]Aidinthel 7 points8 points9 points 1 month ago
I first heard this as "...not ok to shove it down your child's throat."
[–]StealNRun 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
How?
[–]Aidinthel 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
I mean that the first time I encountered a version of this phrase, that was the form it was in.
[–]hoppyfrog 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
It's not? Shit. Sorry ma'am.
[–]HebrewHammerTN -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
"not Ok to shove it down someone else's throat."
Got it. :)
[–]Xizer -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
But it's not okay to have one.
Then again, it's not okay to have a penis either.
DOWN WITH THE PATRIARCHY!
[–]Ronald_McFondlled 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
go back to SRS.
[–]Chavelo92 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Must be difficult not being able to detect sarcasm.
[–]Ronald_McFondlled 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
yes because everyone knows you can portray sarcasm through text so fucking well.
[–]magister0 9 points10 points11 points 1 month ago
Can the government threaten me with violence if I don't let them steal my money?
[–]eclecticEntrepreneur 7 points8 points9 points 1 month ago
yes because social contract Somalia roads
PS elizabeth warren
[–]PyroSign 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Police, roads, fire protection, regulation, and other infrastructure are free?
[–]magister0 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
No.
[–]AntiAggressiveForce -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Are you suggesting these things can be provided only through government?
[–]TheHated 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
You know, at one time some of those things weren't socialized and It didn't turn out very well.
[–]AntiAggressiveForce 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Care to give a concrete example?
In the 19th century, the practice of fire brigades refusing to put out fires in buildings that were uninsured led to the demand of central command for fire companies.
Enjoy an upvote for not being insane.
Thanks. I see that's a quote from wikipedia. Unfortunately, it does not appear to have a reference. Do you have a reference for this example?
[–]TheHated 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago*
Look up "fire plaques", people used to have to pay fire departments in advance for them to actually put out the fire. Which would be fine and all except that fire spreads.
"Between 1800-1900 many American cities suffered devastating fires and realized that something had to be done. More and more cities established government sponsored fire brigades."
As far as the privatizing of the other things in pyrosign's list I could not find a single country that had them all privatized that wasn't a failed state. If you know of evidence to the contrary let me know.
Weren't frequent fires more a result of building materials than firefighters? Fires of that magnitude never happen today in western society - not because of more available firefighters, but because of fire-resistant materials.
There were plenty of firefighters available pre socialization, and the building materials remained there for many years post socialization. I don't understand where you got that I was saying that the amount of fires correlated with the amount of firefighters or where I said the amount of firefighters changed. Also, "As far as the privatizing of the other things in pyrosign's list I could not find a single country that had them all privatized that wasn't a failed state. If you know of evidence to the contrary let me know." Were you not able to find any?
I'm open to any alternatives you might have, but it seems inevitable that it would be a government or government-like entity that would be performing these functions.
I'm sorry for the insult I am about to deliver you, but, that strikes me as interminably mindless. Seriously. Drinking the government kool-aid served to you while you were growing up. The means by which you are suggesting these things must be paid for is fundamentally violent. That in and of itself should put you into a defensive posture - you should have to demonstrate why using violence is the only way to accomplish these ends (and why those ends are worth the violent means!). Instead, you feel perfectly comfortable simply accepting the violence as a default position and suggesting that I defend my peaceful position! It's absurd!
Be honest - how much research have you put into examining the alternatives to the violence of the state? Can you list some bullet points, maybe? Some alternatives you have found?
[–]AdhesiveSquarePaper 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Well stated. It seems as if many here are more statist than the religious, like they have replaced the magical sky daddy who rewards and punishes with the state who rewards and punishes.
But, but, people won't be good without threats of violence.
they have replaced the magical sky daddy who rewards and punishes with the state who rewards and punishes.
The analogy doesn't make sense. Governments actually exist, whereas there is no good evidence for the existence of any god.
The simple question is how would contracts be enforced? At some point of course there has to be some ultimate arbiter, and that organization may have to resort to the use of force.
[–]AdhesiveSquarePaper 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
The state doesn't really exist, just a bunch of people who carry out their own will, god doesn't exist just a bunch of priests who project their own will.
Third party arbitration and escrow are two ways to handle contracts. I'm not sure how not knowing how something will get done should lead to the default position of we need a violent organization.
Edit: polycentric law
[–]PyroSign 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago*
The state doesn't really exist, just a bunch of people who carry out their own will
No, a government is a complex organization that runs by many sets of rules. Ideally a government should operate within a constitutional framework. The people aren't carrying out their own will, although some are exerting their influence on the system as whole.
Claiming it "doesn't exist" is poor metaphysics. It's like saying universities don't exist, or the Internet doesn't exist (Heck, this computer doesn't exist, it's just a bunch of electrons and protons flying around).
Third party arbitration and escrow are two ways to handle contracts.
And this will somehow work without a central government. All you're advocating is smaller government-like entities, and probably end up as a form of feudalism. I suppose it could work, but I doubt it would be any better than existing systems.
I'm not sure how not knowing how something will get done should lead to the default position of we need a violent organization.
You're changing the subject again, an informal fallacy. When people become indignant about basic questions like these, I suspect they’re not too confident in their beliefs. Sort of like the way religious people get offended at the wrong type of questions.
polycentric law
I'm reading up on it.
Well argued, I'll concede the whole existence of a collection vs individuals for now.
I'll just state my main opposition.
The monopoly on violence is immoral. A blue or green costume doesn't make murder right.
[–]Riku98523 12 points13 points14 points 1 month ago
Seriously this is reposted at least 3 times a month.
[–]jt004c 16 points17 points18 points 1 month ago
This is exactly why repost-bashing is a ridiculous activity. Yes you may have seen it before, but if it's getting upvoted, guess what?
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
I had not considered it that way before. Interesting.
[–]LeDinosaur 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago
I never seen this. I am glad I did because I firmly believe this!
[–]cumfarts 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
We need to get that up to 5! That's why they don't understand!
[–]SyrupLicker -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
I'm not on Reddit that much, and I've seen this twenty gazzillion times.
[–]Riku98523 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Yes there are reposts I don't care about because stuff has to get reposted it's just the way things are but this really has been posted like 900 times in the last week it seems.
[–]Fooja 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
The guy campaigning of that anti-Prop8 picture looks kinda gay.
[–]shwinglederp 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
While I understand the point being made, I do not think these pictures do a good job of making it. The problem I notice is that the protesters in the last picture aren't actually forcing any beliefs on anyone, whereas the masked assailant clearly does. I understand the purpose of the image is to appeal to those who look down upon vocal religious people, but I feel more care should be taken when looking at and submitting things like this.
[–]Testiculese 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Yes, they are. They voted on religious legislation that stripped away people's rights. That's called forcing your beliefs on people.
[–]shwinglederp 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I suppose that is true, but the right to vote and express your belief is still held by most people, including those in opposition to the protesters. I see nothing wrong with expressing personal religious views through voting. However, I do see a problem with legislation created by religious government figures meant to reflect certain religious values and ideals.
Normally, no, but they are using their religion to explicitly oppress a group of people, and that cannot be justified. The only reason is religion. It should have never come to a vote.
They are certainly free to stand outside on the sidewalk yelling their empty heads off about how it's wrong. It's quality entertainment.
[–]ApatheticDrone 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
But we are free to take away the property of others in the name of government under the auspices of keeping us safe and helping others right?
[–]blindstrom 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Analogies can be illustrative, but they are not arguments.
[–]SaysNotAtheism 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago
Hi. I am religious and I grasp this perfectly. I do not own a gun or try to force my beliefs on anyone. Not all religions or religious people are crazy.
[–]AbramLincoln 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Alright, look, some on here would argue that believing in untestable ideas such as the Trinity are grounds for being delusional, but I'm not gonna go there.
While you might be a religious liberal (and I am not implying any political affiliation), there are those in your religion that can find basis for infringing upon others' rights. While you're not doing anything wrong, propagating the religious belief is in some degree given those people legitimacy, or enabling them to do what they see fit with their beliefs.
I don't really know why you're being downvoted (well I do, it's always a circlejerk), but I figured I'd try to explain what those people are thinking.
[–]SaysNotAtheism 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
Your first assumption, that I believe in the Trinity, is unfounded and coincidentally false.
Your second assumption, that I am a religious liberal, is unfounded and coincidentally true.
there are those in your religion that can find basis for infringing upon others' rights.
What is my religion?
propagating the religious belief is in some degree given those people legitimacy
Who am I propagating my religious belief to?
If people are downvoting based on unfounded assumptions and generalizations, I would hope they would give me the opportunity to address them, as you did. Have an upvote, sir.
[–]CheopsGin 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
What does it mean to be 'a religious liberal ' and if one 'can find basis for infringing upon others' rights' does that make them a religious conservative?
Sorry, a more precise term would be orthodox and unorthodox, but even those aren't exact for what I'm trying to say. The former would look at the Leviticus verses forbidding homosexuality at face value and accept it for what it is: homosexuality is a sin. A religious liberal would reconcile that scripture with their worldview, leaving room to accept gay marriage and such despite the literature.
[–]dynde87 8 points9 points10 points 1 month ago
Seriously, of all the dumb fuck posts on r/atheism that gets on the front page, you repost this? I think a few other comments here explain a bit about why this is stupid, but let me just make it clear. They are exerting their democratic freedom in this picture. To protest and make a stand for what they believe. It's no different than people who protest with no religious background.
r/atheism isn't an atheist club anymore. It's an I Hate Religion club, it saddens me that irony is so lost on you.
[–]spitz 7 points8 points9 points 1 month ago
There is no irony, for the same reason it isn't ironic for children to be forced to learn history and science while the treatment of mythology as actual science and history is forcibly kept out of those same classes.
The question isn't just about whether people have a problem with something, it's about why. That's the difference between a kidnapper's basement and a jail cell. If you're against people hating religion, tell them why their criticisms of religion are incorrect, and maybe they'll start to like it. However, if you can't explain why they should like it and can only point out that they don't, well...
[–]Chavelo92 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago*
So all you have to do as a nut is hide the reasons true reasons why you're arguing a certain point and present dummy arguments. Good luck trying to enforce any sort of law that can distinguish something done for religious reasons being not okay and something being done for any other sort of reason being perfectly okay. Unless you can quite literally read minds, it won't happen.
Which is why we have to start from the bottom and show young people how to examine their own belief systems instead of fervently clinging to the belief system of their parents. We can progress here, and we clearly already have.
[–]spitz 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
So all you have to do as a nut is hide the reasons true reasons why you're arguing a certain point and present dummy arguments.
That's right, if your opinions are nutty and everyone realizes it, the only hope you have is to create new convincing arguments that aren't nutty. Mind reading doesn't come up here, since any new argument can be judged on its own merits; if it's good, the only reason someone will treat it like a dummy argument is because they're a nut. And if it's bad, well, the nut will have to come up with something better.
You actually don't need a good argument to hide it. Right wing candidates already talk very vaguely and talk about things like "the sanctity of marriage" instead of directly citing the bible, although they sometimes do that as well. So let's say we propose to make it illegal for politicians to use religious justifications for their policy decisions. They can simply rewrap the idea like creationists rewrapped their ideology by renaming it "Intelligent Design".
[–]Tanory07 -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Don't teens just naturaully rebel from what their parents want/are? So why do you think they need your help to do this? O_o
[–]Chavelo92 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
So why are there still so many rebellious teenagers becoming fundamentalist adults? You're observation is a bit flawed.
[–]jt004c 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
They are exerting their democratic freedom in this picture.
They are trying to, and would be able to go much, much further if not for the establishment clause. I'll let you sort out why the US Constitution explicitly prevents the majority of citizens from using the US Government as a tool to enforce their religious beliefs on the minority that does not share those beliefs.
[–]AbramLincoln 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago*
Please please please don't bring the Constitution into this.
10th Amendment reserved powers to the states allow "police power," which essentially allows the legislation of morality--which is what modern Republicanism is, less gov't involvement in economy, more gov't involvement in social issues. Most religious groups don't outwardly try to control the statutes (they're afraid of the 14th Amendment and the SCOTUS), but if they make the abuses 'harmless' enough to not get beaten down by the Fed, then they get to skate by on the principles of popular sovereignty and free speech.
It's hard to tell where religious freedom ends and personal rights are restricted by other peoples' religion. That and the Constitution, much like the Bible, can be interpreted to say a lot of things
[–]jt004c 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
It's not hard to tell where religious freedom ends. Look to the OP picture. That's it right there.
This is very much a Constitutional issue. As I pointed out, the only thing stopping the majority religion from dominating the law-making process in this country is the Establish Clause--your deranged ramblings not-withstanding.
You do not understand the constitution, nor do you understand the difficulties of constitutional law.
If it was a simply issue, none of the judges on the SCOTUS would have jobs.
[–]brutishbloodgod 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
The picture is a poor selection, but the analogy is sound. I agree with you about the picture: they're voicing their opinion as free Americans in peaceful, lawful protest. They can do it, the KKK can do it, Nazis can do it, and I'll defend all of their rights to do this if it ever came to it. It's not okay for their hate to become public policy. Prop 8 and other measures of discrimination "justified" by religion are failures on the part of the US and state governments, as would be laws discriminating against particular ethnic groups. Taking away the rights of others is beyond the bounds of religious freedom. It's unconstitutional, un-American, morally wrong.
[–]Jeezafobic 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
It is hard to take you seriously after reading your wide ranging Christian posts. I wish ther was some way to ensure people read the FAQ before posting emotional arguments.
[–]aletoledo 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I think that the biggest irony is that so many here don't see the parallels of this "democratic freedom" to the religious cults. Political parties are the religious cults and government is the god. I think this is reposted almost as a subconscious acknowledge by people here. They don't know why this speaks to them and therefore they post it so that someone will explain it to them.
Just swap religion with government and it will all make sense.
[–]AbramLincoln 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Uh...in some ways, but not exactly. Probably the biggest difference is that government is a cult that can be changed by majority opinion changing while religion is stuck in the rules of the past, upwards of a few thousand years old.
Thats not true. The church and religions change all the time. Just look at the Spanish Inquisition and how those practices have been abandoned. The catholic church has "cardinals" that act as congressmen and a "pope" that acts as the president. They vote to change their policies in the same way any government does.
I actually didn't consider that. In that case, it's almost a fair point. I'll think about it.
[–]HebrewHammerTN 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
The thing that also pisses me off is that they think religion is above criticism.
Guess what? You are not free to not be offended. There is no part in the constitution or the bill of rights that protects you from being offended.
Many parts of religion offend me. The WBC offends me. White Supremacists offend me, but you don't see me acting lik a baby about it.
For those religious, and non-religious for that matter, that are acting like they are 5, grow the fuck up and put on your big boy underwear or big girl panties.
Indoctronating children is offensive--it is child abuse to tell a child that some powerful, invisible non-human thing is stalking it 24/7 w/plan to torture the child forever w/fire if it is displeased w/what it sees. But, by the way, you must love this thing.
[–]valleyshrew 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
The WBC offends me.
The westboro baptist church are one of the few religious groups that support free speech, freedom of religion and seperation of church and state. But even here on reddit just a couple of days ago there was a post on the front page where a lot of the top comments were openly encouraging violence against them simply because they use their human right to peaceful protest in a way that Americans find offensive. Reddit really reacted similarly to muslims reacting to the danish muhammad cartoons and it was utterly disgusting.
[–]Sloppy1sts 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago*
Believing that God punishes us for accepting gays does not logically coincide with support for the separation of church and state. Have they actually stated support for it anywhere?
[–]DukeMcbadass 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
America, where you can do whatever the fuck you want to do as long is it doesn't fuck with someone else doing what the fuck they want to do.
[–]mattyice18 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Springfield XDm.....nice piece.
[–]RhinoMan2112 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
LOL, I was thinking the same thing.
[–]nine_eleven 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
YEAH LOL RELIGIOUS PPL R SO DUMB HAHAHA ROFL LOL
[–]Cdwollan 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Yeah, and we're smart because we sleep in on sundays and don't have imaginary friends and only use cold logic.
[–]nine_eleven 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
SUCK MY DICK
Go fly a plane!
[–]Kyoraki 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
That's a poor example, I'm sure many people (non-americans) think that people aren't free to own guns at all.
[–]brandon0109 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
as a Christian, i approve of gay marriage, i don't see anything wrong with 2 people who love each other getting married, my church is for gay marriage to.
[–]whodatjustmybabydad -3 points-2 points-1 points 1 month ago
Repost.
[–]Miller-STGT 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
Reposted the 104th time...but I feel bad about downvoting it because it´s 100% true. Damnit there shout be a zero button. Leaving it unvoted feels so wrong. AAAAAAAAAAAH I HAVE TO CUT OF MY FINGERS.
[–]eelsify 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
wow...dude, you need to relax
First time I have seen it and I surf the internet all the time.
[–]Tself 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
A comment that describes itself as well.
[–]probablyjustsomeguy 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
In regards to the bottom two captions, YES they are free to do those things. But those who are the subjects of such actions are free to retaliate, such is the nature of freedom. The legislation of freedom is where all the complications arise, because legislating freedom is contradictory. Really "freedom" in the sense it's used in normally is not what the concept of freedom is. This road eventually leads to the whole freewill vs fate debate (lets not, please). Let's just sit here, on the bench of "fuck it all, and lets live our lives."
[–]madplayshd 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I read something interesting on reddit couple of days ago: You can either be emotional, or rational. Not both at the same time. Its called dual-process-model of psychology or something along those lines.
So you cannot discuss with people in a rational manner while they are beeing emotional. What you have to do instead is to listen to them to disengage the emotion and then you can reason with them.
[–]quadguy16 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Why can't aetheists grasp the concept that not all religious people act as ignorantly as the members of the west burro baptist church.
[–]StealNRun 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Haha some days I wish someone would actually make an atheist church... Or whatever you would call it.
So we could all actually join together and make a change in the world. We could bring people in who were curious and show them why we don't believe God exists, and why that's a great thing.
We could have an impact on politics, we could bring it out of the shadows and enlighten the world.
But no, we're rational human beings and atheists often don't like to work together, which is why I believe a lot of us are not religious in the first place, which is quite sad. :(
TL;DR - Atheist church would be awesome.
Only in that it would/should be tax exempt?
[–]SmokinPapes 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Probabbllyyyy gonna get downvotes, but fuck it. Not all religious people are like this. Im Deist, which isn't religious, but have many religious friends, and not ONE of them match this post at all. "Hi i'm OP and i'm a karma whore so i repost things that got mucho karma the first 1000 times that agree with the majority of reddit's views."
[–]yoshi314 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
"you are not allowed to use your gun to take away freedom of others."
well, unless you are in the military/police.
i suppose some people feel free to extend it to religion as well, considering themselves 'moral police' or something of the sort.
[–]msmith93 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I don't know why you people stereotype all religious people to be this way. I'm a Christian, yet I am tolerant to all except the intolerant.
I don't force my beliefs on anyone at any time, yet if I were to tell anyone in this subreddit that I am Christian, they would immediately respond with every reason they believe is valid to counter my beliefs.
TLDR; stop stereotyping all religious people to be those who try to force beliefs on you.
[–]Scopae 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Devils advocate here, There is a big difference between using violence to force people to think the way you do and protesting. You cannot claim these two are the same because they are vastly different.
[–]OnanationUnderGod 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I don't get it.
[–]iXRazor 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I live in England and guns are not legal. Does that mean I don't have Freedom?
[–]eXePyrowolf 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Its all relative, the US has plenty of laws that the UK doesn't have. Saying anyone is more free by being allowed to own a gun is nonsense.
That's what I thought.
[–]Shippoyasha 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
This is why a lot of Christians actually have a problem with organizing into a religion. There's even some Bible verses that denounce the group-think mentality of religion and praises the personal aspects of religion.
In fact, I don't see why religion in its entirety shouldn't be more individualized and not turned into organizations the way it is. Even for religions that now are very benign and unintrusive now, such as Hinduism and Buddhism, even they had some nasty history of religious wars in the past.
All religions that could and should have not been instituted into powerful organizations that sway the minds of millions and have connections with the ruling peoples and militaries. It seems to always lead to the same problem of religion having overt powers as an organization than a benign thing that individuals answer to on their own terms.
[–]IAmAManWhoEats 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Free to own a gun? FALSE! Australia.
[–]NoUsernameMan 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
With the last clip on that picture, one of the posters says "Marriage, one man, one woman". I believe that could be the WBC, which no one, even religious people (I'm Catholic and absolutely despise them and what they do) likes.
[–]apullin 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Come on, man, are you being sarcastic or something?
Religion can believe that it's wrong to be gay. That's freedom of religion.
People's rights being taken away is a political problem. Blaming religion is a reactionary oversight.
[–]analogkid1 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
What??? It is religious influence infiltrating our government through "christian" politicians, the pope, and christian lobbying organizations that are perpetuating bigotry and discrimination. Wake the fuck up.
[–]Noname_acc 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Yes, because there are no common religious folk who use their religion to help them decide what they think is right. Only politicians, the pope and lobbyists actually believe.
herbertstrasse: this progressive grasps this concept very well and does not disagree w/it.
FYI: Logic and reason do not "take away" religion; they inform a person that subsequently abandons religion.
[–]Alexi_Strife 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Cept in their eyes they are trying to save you. So it's like they are using their "gun" to amputate a limb of yours that has been infected by the gay before it can spread to the rest of your body.
[–]AJ100WD 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago*
"AMONG the numerous advantages promised by a well constructed Union, none deserves to be more accurately developed than its tendency to break and control the violence of faction. The friend of popular governments never finds himself so much alarmed for their character and fate, as when he contemplates their propensity to this dangerous vice. He will not fail, therefore, to set a due value on any plan which, without violating the principles to which he is attached, provides a proper cure for it. The instability, injustice, and confusion introduced into the public councils, have, in truth, been the mortal diseases under which popular governments have everywhere perished; as they continue to be the favorite and fruitful topics from which the adversaries to liberty derive their most specious declamations. The valuable improvements made by the American constitutions on the popular models, both ancient and modern, cannot certainly be too much admired; but it would be an unwarrantable partiality, to contend that they have as effectually obviated the danger on this side, as was wished and expected. Complaints are everywhere heard from our most considerate and virtuous citizens, equally the friends of public and private faith, and of public and personal liberty, that our governments are too unstable, that the public good is disregarded in the conflicts of rival parties, and that measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority. However anxiously we may wish that these complaints had no foundation, the evidence, of known facts will not permit us to deny that they are in some degree true. It will be found, indeed, on a candid review of our situation, that some of the distresses under which we labor have been erroneously charged on the operation of our governments; but it will be found, at the same time, that other causes will not alone account for many of our heaviest misfortunes; and, particularly, for that prevailing and increasing distrust of public engagements, and alarm for private rights, which are echoed from one end of the continent to the other. These must be chiefly, if not wholly, effects of the unsteadiness and injustice with which a factious spirit has tainted our public administrations.
By a faction, I understand a number of citizens, whether amounting to a majority or a minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adversed to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community.
There are two methods of curing the mischiefs of faction: the one, by removing its causes; the other, by controlling its effects.
There are again two methods of removing the causes of faction: the one, by destroying the liberty which is essential to its existence; the other, by giving to every citizen the same opinions, the same passions, and the same interests.
It could never be more truly said than of the first remedy, that it was worse than the disease. Liberty is to faction what air is to fire, an aliment without which it instantly expires. But it could not be less folly to abolish liberty, which is essential to political life, because it nourishes faction, than it would be to wish the annihilation of air, which is essential to animal life, because it imparts to fire its destructive agency..."
-James Madison, Federalist 10 (Only an excerpt)
And after reading the above, atheists should be able to understand that they have no right to tell religious people how to utilize their freedom when expressing themselves in a representative government.
Sincerely, an annoyed agnostic who finds poorly informed, outspoken atheists just as annoying as poorly informed, outspoken religious people.
Diversity is great for a country, but that doesn't change the fact that religion - be it Christianity, Islam or whatever - has no place in our secular government, given to us by this country's founding fathers.
"The mixing of government and religion is one of sectarian strife ending with war, torture and cruelty beyond measure."
One only has to look at the Middle East for proof of that.
[–]AJ100WD 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago*
First, let me say I support marriage between consenting adults (to me the term gay marriage is somewhat prejudice, just as the term bi-racial marriage is).
My point is that the freedom to exercise religion, which is a first amendment right, comes from a greater freedom: freedom of conscience. Now, of course, the first amendment also contains the (non) establishment clause as well. My point was not that religion should be part of government, which you seem to imply (I could be wrong). I support and advocate that all people should follow the dictates of their respective consciences, even if they are misguided, and in some cases simply wrong, because it is necessary for the freedom of all. To me, this is how it seems: Religious people are "bad" for trying to express their conscience and using their voice in government to deny marriage rights. The caption above asserts that "you are not free to use your religion to take away the freedom of others." However, these people have the right not only to think (perhaps incorrectly) for themselves, they also have a right to be represented and partake in their own government. To assert that these people "are not free to use [their] religion (and thus, use their conscience) [when partaking in the political process]" is to try to deny them an even greater freedom (in my opinion)--i.e., the freedom to be represented in their government, or rather, more simply, the freedom to vote and hold their government accountable. I am not saying that denying the freedom to marry to consenting adults is not a grave injustice. That was my point of quoting the first few paragraphs of Federalist 10, especially the last paragraph quoted above.
If you look up the rest and read, the main point of Federalist 10 is that the people will (hopefully) elect representatives to the Federal Government that will protect the greater public good when it is attacked by the State governments, which is accomplished mainly by protecting the minority from the "moral majority". This is already happening in real life, as a number of Federal District Courts have held bans on gay marriage, and even DOMA, to be unconstitutional.
Again, I support marriage between consenting adults, but I also support every individual's right to exercise their freedom of conscience and their right to suffrage. It is true that in the present case, the majority is tyrannizing the minority (fortunately, the federal courts are in the process of remedying this), but to deny freedom of conscience and freedom to suffrage to a certain group based on their beliefs would be the minority tyrannizing the majority.
As for the Middle East, you just picked a huge tangent. There is much strife, but to place the blame squarely on religion is naive at best. Look at Iran, for instance, and then look up "Operation AJAX" where the American and British governments (secular governments I might add) overthrew another secular government in the early 50s. I am not trying to justify the present theocracy in Iran or the Iranian revolution in 79. I am asserting, however, that the present theocracy in Iran would not exist had not the British and US secular governments overthrown a legitimate government and replaced it with another that used Nazi torture techniques on its own citizens.
And that is only a small factor in the history of it all. For the past 200 years, foreign powers have been using religions within the Middle East to keep the region weak in order to take advantage of their natural resources. Here's a question and answer: How long have the Shiites and Sunnis been killing each other? For over a thousand years. That still didn't stop the Western Empires in the 18th and 19th centuries (mainly Great Britain and France) from strategically organizing countries so that they included both sects in order to keep the governments and nations nearly always at the brink of civil war to the nation's disadvantage and the West's advantage.
On an even larger time scale (think for 4000 years), the geographical area of Palestine and Israel is so valuable mostly because it is one of the best land routes between the East and the West. Before international shipping, if one controlled that land route, one controlled the majority of the trade between East and West. Being able to tax that trade is a huge source of government income. I am not saying religion wasn't used as an excuse to continually invade the area, which it was (e.g., the Crusades). I am saying that the excuse was to cover up many other economic short comings of Western "Civilization" at the time.
The point of the above Middle East spiel is that religion is often used as an excuse for many other things. It is true that it can cause hate, but so can any other misguided philosophy (Nietzsche's avocation of sexism) or science (e.g, look up Eugenics, or better yet, Hitler's Aryan race). To place the blame solely on religion is naive at best, and at its worse, it is to blatantly ignore history in order to promote one's own prejudice.
On a side note, I distrust "religious government" not because of the word "religious" but because of the word "government".
TL;DR Don't hate! Commiserate. :D
[–]analogkid1 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago*
Well stated. I do not have a rebuttal.
[–]herpenderpenderp 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
now we wait for the repost of the Michael Phelps picture.
[–]kabomlamma 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
because a religion is a group of people, there is only one thing a group of people want: to become a bigger group. read this book and everything which happens in the world becomes a little clearer
this goes for any group by the way atheists, not just religious ones
[–]spinozasrobot 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Jonathan Haidt's book "The Righteous Mind" talks abut this. Religious and political beliefs are often made at the "gut" level as opposed to rational thought.
There is concrete evidence from psychology that people feel a need to justify those beliefs by convincing (or even coercing) others they're correct. Hence the outward nature of religious and political proselytization.
[–]DeathByFarts 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Its a hard concept for lots of people to grasp.
I like to phrase it as such ..
I can do WHATEVER THE FUCK I want. As long as it does not interfere with you also doing WHATEVER THE FUCK you want.
[–]Wildfyre101 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
A religion licence! You're brilliant!
[–]Zintao 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
You are free to have a gun and look how well that works for you people (read; Americans). You are free to have a religion, again look how well that works, only this time for all of us (read; every motherfucker on this planet).
Oversimplification.
A gun is made with the express purpose of shooting--hunting, killing, harming in some way. It's obvious to see how there may be a conflict between personal rights and society.
Religion is a dogma, encompassed by a set of ideas. In that sense, it's much harder to point at where religious freedom ends and personal liberties rights should be restricted. It's even harder when an idea with the religion is not exclusive to the religion.
For instance, it's possible (although not common) to find a secular reason to oppose and dislike abortion.
[–]ryansc07 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
That last pic doesn't make since because they have the freedom to picket and protest whatever they want. It's not like the old days where we lynched anyone who said there is no god. They have a right to say atheist are going to hell, just like we have a right t say there is no hell.
[–]spadamaz 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Why do you assume that we are all the same? Why do you assume I will try to convert every one of you to my base form of beliefs in God?
I might as well assume every Muslim is a terrorist, and that every atheist is a godless sinner and must be purged by holy fire.
Great baby jeebus I'm tired of hearing about this, and how we're all bible thumping fanatics with a crazy gun toting death wish. It's frankly insulting; I'm a scientific person as well, reconciling my obvious internal struggles with both religion and science isn't easy. However lets not play the 'you're all one and the same' game.
[–]ok_you_win 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
The OPs graphic didnt suggest that at all. You are projecting.
Why?
[–]traffician 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
spad, perhaps it seems like we're generalizing. i'm pretty sure most of us understand that being christian doesn't necessarily make you a homophobe, science opponent, or snake handler. But in america, when you find one of those guys, he's more likely to be christian than not. So you have to take that as part and parcel of being a christian. Similarly, i have to assemble my own moral framework, since one isn't supplied by my atheism.
the major issue i'd care to point out to someone with concerns such as yours is that, if there's no distinction between God's opinions and one's own misinformed opinions, you're going to keep having Neumanns, Phelpses, and other biblethumpers misrepresenting you, with your own holy text.
Or perhaps we all just realize on both sides, religious, atheist, boys, girls, X and Y, we all got our fair share of crazies ;)
yes. of course i realize that an atheist is as likely to be kooky as a christian.
the big difference is that crazy atheists are simply crazy people who don't believe there's an invisible man everywhere. Crazy christians, however, are crazy people who believe that the Master of the Universe and Author of All Morality is in perfect agreement with their every opinion. That is scary, scary, scary. Know what i mean?
heh, absolutely. But it's never simple with crazy either, I've met atheists who try to force their belief of not believing just as hard as those crazy christians. meh, all sides... all frickin sides. I wish everyone would just keep it to themselves unless specifically asked. like, on purpose ;)
sorry if my previous comment came off cool and dismissive. i actually appreciate you being honest and letting off some steam on us, even though i'm offering a counter-argument.
[–]brucegoosejuice 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I do like that Springfield XD or XDM.
[–]nthensome 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I guess it depends on where you live, but many of them do get this...
[–]breezillini23 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
As a Christian I understand this concept. Not every religious person is an idiotic asshole. Everyone bitches about being stereotyped as atheists by Christian...well guess what guys, you're stereotyping us. Not only do I grasp everyone's right to believe whatever they want but I also don't hate gays or Muslims or Jews or any of that other crap that is stereotyped that I do. We're not all Westboro Babstist extremests.
[–]arrise 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
But Freedom is only Freedom when its our kind of Freedom!
[–]Novensu 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Ummm. That would require logic perhaps....
[–]frozenkiller7 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
the ironic part is that many athiests are trying to shove down the idea of a lack of god down everyone's throat...
[–]NATESOR -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
government license = freedom? No. It doesn't. Abolish all marriage license... THAT is freedom.
[–]KelticKickass -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
I'm Christian and i completely understand this. Even with as many insane Christians as there appears to be out that is still a very small portion of christian people. Not all of us are fucking lunatics. Kinda wish r/atheism would understand that better.
[–]EggdropBotnet 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
[–]Litschi 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
with guns
[–]ipunchbeez 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Pow.
[–]blaktaco -3 points-2 points-1 points 1 month ago
Yeah, they're really dumb...
[–]mexirican2 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
excellent post. You couldn't say it any better.
[–]Mattycore 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I can agree with this
[–]SicilianEggplant 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago*
Isn't this the consequence of freedom?
If we weren't free to own guns, then people wouldn't have the opportunity to use it against others.
But since we are free to have weapons, we do have the freedom to use them against others.
That doesn't mean it is morally or legally or ethically OK to do so, but I don't think freedom is defined by those aforementioned things. Freedom doesn't equate a perfect or safe society, it just means that you have to take and expect the good with the bad.
In fact, this seems like a pretty stupid argument. If you're not free to do what you want with something, then it isn't exactly a freedom. I mean, can one take liberties with absolute freedom?
[–]Aircavii 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Why can't atheist people grasp the concept that posting shit like this is just as inflammatory and obnoxious as religious people trying to force their beliefs on someone?
[–]traffician 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
You're free to share your beliefs, Air. Typing shit on the web is a form of sharing, not forcing. Figure it out.
[–]69jafo 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
wow, how nice of you to stereotype "religious people".
I suppose all 977,974 atheist redditors believe the same thing?
[–]CtrlC_plus_CtrlV -3 points-2 points-1 points 1 month ago
your own freedom ends where the freedom of another begins
[–]CitationX_N7V11C -4 points-3 points-2 points 1 month ago
Why can't you grasp that not all religious people think that way? Oh, that's right. You're only human. Just like them.
[–]wm3166 -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
What if you switched the word religion with atheism?
[–]Nick51705 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
What does that change...?
[–]Ortizjoel21 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Can you please elaborate about how does atheism take away other people's rights ( making fun of what others believes doesn't really count as taking their rights away )
[–]James_Holmes -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
They can grasp that concept, they just don't agree with it. Why can't liberals grasp that other people have different political beliefs?
[–]Chester-Drawers -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
People also have the right to voice their opinions. That's why we have the freedom of speech. If you don't like what they are saying then be active in promoting your ideas and supporting people you agree with. There is no reason to hate each other over this. Let us all agree to disagree. :)
[–]StealNRun -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
That's fucking dumb. The reason we argue in the first place is because all ideas are NOT equal, and there is a correct answer for everything, it is just very hard to find sometimes.
Agreeing to disagree is just stupid.
[–]Imsodarncool 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Lol. That seems somewhat ignorant.
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
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