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[–]Nougat 53 points54 points ago

[–]PocketHobbit 11 points12 points ago

I'm always skeptical of these image quotes. Thank you.

[–]FredDorfman 5 points6 points ago

There's an old saying in engineering that God is a Civil. Because nobody else would run a waste pipeline right through a recreation area.

Trust me, this joke is as old as the first sewers.

[–]Lostcory 19 points20 points ago

You're the hero reddit deserves.

[–]on_the_redpill 1 point2 points ago

You're on Reddit, and you haven't heard everything NDT has ever said?

[–]Lostcory 4 points5 points ago

The problem with quotes on the internet is that they are hard to verify. -Abraham Lincoln.

[–]bunnysuitman 0 points1 point ago

that's what she said ~John Wilkes Booth

[–]Some-Reddit-Guy 0 points1 point ago

"Oh, fuck, I love penises" Jesus Christ

[–]Mileskitsune 0 points1 point ago

dood what are you doing here! go kill some vampires already, they are really clogging up the roads

[–]SomewhatAnnoying 1 point2 points ago

Well, I want to remember that the sewage/entertainment system is a paraphrase originally from George Carlin, but then again, great minds think alike.

[–]jimmy_ringo 1 point2 points ago

I actually verified this when I originally created/posted this image (I provided book, chapter, and page info).

[–]Nougat 1 point2 points ago

Yes, and that made it particularly easy to come up with a link to the book.

Even if you'd posted a link to the book in the image, the problem with images is that you can't just click them. There's a barrier to the evidence of verification, which many people aren't willing to overcome. Easier to just believe, especially when the message is appealing.

[–]SimilarImage 62 points63 points ago

Age User Title Reddit Cmnt Points
2 months SuperWalter Neil deGrasse Tyson absolutely slamming intelligent design. here 316 1238
4 months jimmy_ringo Neil deGrasse Tyson on Stupid Design here 551 2000
3 months crazyxpro Stupid Design here 26 509

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[–]alfredojones 3 points4 points ago

Only three times?

[–]MuteSecurity 1 point2 points ago

no, definitely more times this quote has been posted, but only 3 times with a similar image. hence, similarimage posting on it

[–]jaguarbravo 3 points4 points ago

Note to self: repost this quote in month.

[–]Squeekme 2 points3 points ago

Re-shop this quote in month.

[–]Tebaxx 2 points3 points ago

I like this bot

[–]jimmy_ringo 0 points1 point ago

Thanks, bot. I don't know why but it kind of hurts to create original content (even if my design skills suck), share it with my 'friends' on reddit, and then have other people constantly repost it to reap karma. Oh, well. I learned my lesson.

[–]500Questions 0 points1 point ago

Impersonation is the sincerest form of flattery. Think of it as Reddit saying "This is so good, it's worth re-posting."

[–]jimmy_ringo 0 points1 point ago

I see what you're getting at but this isn't impersonation. It's a repost of my exact image. I wouldn't be so bitchy about it if someone would at least make an effort to improve my original image (admittedly, the design/layout sucks) and then repost it to reap karma.

[–]Sauroctonos 17 points18 points ago

And why would god give pigs a better sex life than humans and demand that people not eat pork? I'm thinking he didn't like us too much after all....

[–]Grindstone50k 6 points7 points ago

Turns out, he was rooting for the pigs during the evolutionary process, but things didn't turn out the way he planned..

[–]mrthbrd 15 points16 points ago

That's actually an extremely interesting idea for a sci-fi novel. Humanity creates some sort of a time compression field, envelopes an entire planet with it and turns evolution into a spectator sport (with people betting on certain species etc). But then the field goes haywire and accelerates too much and suddenly there's an extremely developed race on the planet and it wages war on humanity. Or something like that.

[–]Grindstone50k 7 points8 points ago

Instead of just a different race, make it extremely developed raptors. And get Michael Bay to make the movie. Instant summer block buster.

[–]MightySteede 4 points5 points ago

[–]mrthbrd 1 point2 points ago

I like the way you think!

[–]alfredojones 1 point2 points ago

You could make it an extremely robust and scientifically accurate computer program that simulates a planet or even an entire universe that could be sped up/slowed down. And peopld would bet on different worlds in different galaxies, and different species. And then you would have peace activists who say it's inhumane, because like the matrix the creatures could actually feel as though they're real. And the activists develope a "bridge" to the digital world a la Tron to try and let a certain race free who had reached roughly our level of inteligence or for some other reason. But it gets harnessed by the extremely developed race and they then wage war.

[–]scarfinati 0 points1 point ago

Ted sturgeon wrote a similar idea some 50 years ago but great idea

[–]Squeejee09 6 points7 points ago

Pigs are also pretty intelligent, but unlike dolphins nobody really cares because they're so delicious.

[–]Grindstone50k 1 point2 points ago

Has anybody ever tried dolphin bacon?

[–]Squeejee09 0 points1 point ago

Is there an r/Inuit? We should ask them.

[–]JihadDerp 19 points20 points ago

"an entertainment complex in the middle of a sewage system."

But some people like playing in the mud.

[–]Owlsrule12 0 points1 point ago

And George Carlin suggested that growing up in new York, literally playing in the sewers essentially militarized his immune system so he never gets sick.

[–]JihadDerp 2 points3 points ago

Which is why I pick my nose and eat the boogers. If my body is trying to rid me of harm through snot, if I re-ingest it, it will build my immunity.

[–]TrepanationBy45 1 point2 points ago

Seems legit.

[–]JihadDerp 1 point2 points ago

Deny my logic!

[–]Squeekme 1 point2 points ago

An amount of mucus goes down you oesophagus anyway.

[–]JihadDerp 2 points3 points ago

One needs more to boost immunity!

[–]A_DERPING_ULTRALISK 0 points1 point ago

Hey you should eat other ppls boogers too. That will really help the ol' immune system.

[–]TheMagicStik 8 points9 points ago

Whenever I hear that last part about the genital region, I think of some 80s montage with "god" in a changing room placing the dick in different regions of the body and coming out of the room to Jesus shaking his head until finaly he puts it between the legs and Jesus gives him the thumbs up and says "yeahhhhhhhhhhhhh".

[–]I_Dont_Eat 0 points1 point ago

Oh my god yes

[–]girlnamedlance 4 points5 points ago

"Downtown Dining and Entertainment District" has always been my favorite nickname for my vag

[–]ghind 2 points3 points ago

This just might be the most reposted thing on reddit

[–]whitetzor 1 point2 points ago

I wonder how it reaches the front page every time?

[–]obstoner45 0 points1 point ago

More likely just the most reposted quote.

[–]cardinals5 2 points3 points ago

Down there between our legs, it's like an entertainment complex in the middle of a sewage system. Who designed that?

Obviously a civil engineer

[–]SwedishLovePump 2 points3 points ago

As a type 1 diabetic, how's this for intelligent design: my body attacked my own pancreas.

[–]TheOthin 1 point2 points ago

He eloquently asks a few good questions, but there are some bigger ones. The main one: why is anything other than old age capable of killing us? Why should the systems be designed so fragile that they can fail simply by eating the wrong thing or taking a knife to the chest?

[–]RudeTurnip 1 point2 points ago

I could be reading into it too much, but does anyone remember when Neil deGrasse Tyson had Morgan Freeman on his StarTalk Radio show? Morgan was talking about his "Through the Wormhole" TV show and started to talking about Intelligent Design as a topic on the show. You could almost hear Neil's teeth grinding and then he quickly changed the topic.

[–]Rawtashk 1 point2 points ago

"How to get Reddit Karma in 1 easy step" 1: Post a picture of Neil with the 'amusement park in a sewage station' quote. Everyone has seen it, because it's been posted here 2,098,553 times, but you'll get a billion uovotes.

[–]ccrazool 1 point2 points ago

Another one I heard that should be added to the list: Stabbing. How "intelligent" is it that we can be stabbed? We're very VERY stabbable. Why would a god think that stabbability is such a desirable trait?

Personally, the fact that I grow hair in the same area where I poo is all the proof I need to refute intelligent design. That's not intelligent at all. That's stupid as hell.

[–]funkyflapsack 1 point2 points ago

I don't agree with everything Ayn Rand said, but she put this intelligent design conversation into perspective for me with this. The argument for intelligent design is that the universe is so orderly and what not. The problem with this is that we having nothing to compare it to. We believe it to be orderly because we grew up with these physics. We can only compare 'order' to what we imagine as disorder, which would be a universe that doesn't use these physics. <--- did i make sense here?

[–]spaceguy89 1 point2 points ago

This guy is one of the most inspirational people a live.

[–]Kryptus 1 point2 points ago

God never approved an entertainment complex. The devil must have made some unapproved changes...

[–]mrducky78 6 points7 points ago

I dont know how, I am unwilling to find out how, therefore intelligent design - fundie

[–]on_the_redpill 1 point2 points ago

I'll upvote even though your grammar bugged me. -Good Guy Redditor

[–]mrducky78 1 point2 points ago

I dont know. I am unwilling to find out. Therefore, intelligent design.

Dont talk about the lack of apostrophe in "dont"

[–]on_the_redpill 0 points1 point ago

The periods helped :)

[–]JackRubysGun 1 point2 points ago

Is this from the same talk where he mentions that we are actually pretty blind with respect to how much of the spectrum we can see. And how the universe that was "made for us" is quite largely composed of areas that would kill us in seconds. This last idea actually got me thinking, if even just the earth was made for us why do we need homes? Why do we need air conditioning?

[–]KonigderWasserpfeife 6 points7 points ago

To be fair, we managed for what, 200,000 years without air conditioning...

[–]JackRubysGun 1 point2 points ago

Actually it was only 6,000 :) and secondly why would you mess with what God gave you? God didn't make A/C, he didn't make apartments why would someone need something that God didn't provide if they live by that retarded logic?

[–]tinyirishgirl 0 points1 point ago

And without deodorant?

[–]KonigderWasserpfeife 0 points1 point ago

Well, once you're around a smell for a while, you stop noticing it.

I see no problems.

[–]forevercabron 0 points1 point ago

We don't "need" homes or AC (many millions of people around the world have never had AC, and I cannot guess as to how many do not live in any sort of house). These things are niceties that we as a human race were smart enough to build for our comfort. You can absolutely live without them... However, if we were forced to live outdoors or to constantly seek some shelter from the weather, it would be a huge hardship and our lives would no doubt be miserable and short.

[–]paraiahpapaya 1 point2 points ago

All excellent and humorous points, but he lifted this idea from a sci fi novel. I remember being struck by a passage that essentially said the same thing in a book I read when I was about 14-15. I think it was in the Ringworld series somewhere, probably The Ringworld Engineers. I shall sleuth it up and see if I can pinpoint the passage.

[–]RudeTurnip 2 points3 points ago

NDT is a huge fan of Ringworld, so this should not come as a surprise.

[–]paraiahpapaya 0 points1 point ago

I can't seem to find the passage having searched through Ringworld and The Ringworld Engineers. I may be mistaken as to the source and I'm having no luck with other classic sci fi books I thought it might be in.

The passage went something like how NDT puts it but the protagonist was comparing humans to aliens from Vega I believe although I'm not totally sure, who had brains that were close to the center of their body and well protected from shocks.

[–]wormbomber 1 point2 points ago

The appendix does have a purpose. It can be used as a refuge for symbiotic intestinal bacteria during cholera epidemics for example. However, we live in such close contact with other people that symbiotic bacteria spreads quickly from individual to individual. Neil deGrasse Tyson may be intelligent, but he is by no means correct in every statement.

[–]akuta 4 points5 points ago

It's already been proven (in the same studies that identified the actual use of the appendix in previous generations of more spatially distant groups of our species) that due to that close proximity of populace that they are indeed "useless" or "have no purpose." So he's technically still spot on. Unless we are in a society or group of people that is quite distant, the appendix's function is performed by external hosts and is no longer necessary unless we have an apocalypse that wipes out the bulk of our species.

[–]I_am_THE_GRAPIST 0 points1 point ago

But even after being isolated, would it still get infected and kill you?

[–]akuta 1 point2 points ago

It can, just as it can get infected now. The problem with that kind of thinking is that anything in your intestine can get infected, really. If you were isolated in a far away place and your tribe got sick with a very difficult intestinal disease or bug and all of those "good bacteria" got flushed out through vomiting, diarrhea, etc. your body could reestablish the bacterias within your intestine to make you healthy again. The likelihood of it being infected may be lower because you're not exposed to as many of the bacterias and germs that can cause the infections when you're not in heavily/densely populated areas.

If you think of it like this, it kind of helps. The appendix functions much like a sourdough bread "starter." :)

[–]Feinberg 0 points1 point ago

Even if one were a hermit, we have a lot of gut flora in common with other mammals.

[–]akuta 0 points1 point ago

True enough. We'd just have to be closely tied with them somehow. Perhaps some dogs, pigs, etc. as pets/food (food meaning since we'd be around them while they are alive).

[–]Feinberg 0 points1 point ago

Not necessarily. As long as one butchers one's own food without the use of masks, gloves, face shields and such, there's always going to be a steady influx of bacteria. Gut bacteria even travel well on produce. That's how we get e. coli outbreaks from spinach.

[–]Capercaillie 1 point2 points ago

He didn't say the appendix doesn't have a purpose. He said it's better at killing us than it is at fulfilling that purpose. Which is true.

[–]Squeekme 2 points3 points ago

Fundies like to change the meaning of what scientists say.

[–]chemical_imbalance 0 points1 point ago

i don't know about you guys, but i'll go splashin around in the sewer on occasion.

[–]churnice 0 points1 point ago

Robin Williams.

[–]LZYX 0 points1 point ago

Everythings a repost, but what the heck, can't argue with NDT.

[–]derpdeederpa 0 points1 point ago

this is probably the post I've seen reposted the most times since I've started browsing reddit.

That being said, the quote is awesome, so I don't really care.

[–]lieutdan 0 points1 point ago

I LOVE his ENTHUSIASM. It's really GREAT. YES

[–]pieceofeverything 0 points1 point ago

Funny the only flawed design he thought is the human body.

[–]Ballsey 0 points1 point ago

Some dipshit civil engineer, that's who.

[–]wow_great_name 0 points1 point ago

Oh Neil, the sewage system can be entertaining too!

[–]Beretot 0 points1 point ago

Very well said, but one thing I would like to point out:

an entertainment complex in the middle of a sewage system

On men, having the urethra be the canal for both semen and urine is a great idea; The latter actually cleans it up and prevents any leftover semen from rotting (it is highly energetic, bacteria love it).

Ever notice how you have a strong desire to pee moments after ejaculating?

[–]sirius_star 0 points1 point ago

Not good enough.

[–]Expodryerase 0 points1 point ago

NDT is not an Atheist!

[–]Feinberg 0 points1 point ago

Doesn't matter.

[–]singlemalt_ninja[!] 0 points1 point ago

God put the buffet near the shitter. He's a terrible architect, mostly because he doesn't exist.

[–]iDontShift 0 points1 point ago

intelligent design means God designed the function of the universe, the physics, and the gradual awakening process was all built in. Meaning that what you see as evolution of accidents, i say there is a plan, but that plan is to not do what has been done before, to try and find new ways of being, and to do that forget everything that came before and start fresh, build this incredible universe that just populates with life of a zillion forms, all coming about naturally within the physics, chemistry, biology of that universe.

[–]ikinone 0 points1 point ago

"Lol."

-Abraham Lincoln (on intelligent design)

[–]osta2501 0 points1 point ago

Some many reposts of this, repostception doesn't even begins to describe it.

Here, here, here, etc.

Seriously, Karma Decay is your friend in posting. This is your post in karma decay.

[–]yamatoshi 0 points1 point ago

tl;dr, longest quote ever. I prefer to see him actually speak it, so I can also see the humor and cynicism he puts into it.

[–]Robstaley 0 points1 point ago

more importantly, intelligent design fails to explain the "unexplainable intricacy" of their designer. thus we've merely muddied the original question.

[–]waytothink 0 points1 point ago

true...but on the same premise, why would we evolve that way...

[–]Feinberg 1 point2 points ago

Because evolution is a random and haphazard process, and these are flaws which generally wouldn't kill someone before they had a chance to reproduce.

[–]waytothink 0 points1 point ago

Also true, but that mutation stuck around to the present day because it was in some way a better adaptation than its predecessors, so in the long run it is the best layout?

I see what your saying though, because it is random, its the best layout of what has been presented so far.

[–]Feinberg 0 points1 point ago

So long as it doesn't interfere with reproductive success and doesn't incur too much of an energy drain, there's no reason for a mutation to go away quickly, and the appendix was probably a stomach of some sort not too long ago, evolutionalrily speaking. It's like arrectores pilorum being all over the body. We don't need them and they're really only vaguely useful on the scalp, so why do we have them? Because except for Robin Williams, humans only recently lost the thick coat of body hair that would make them useful, they don't pose a reproductive hazard, and they don't burn much energy.

[–]waytothink 0 points1 point ago

Im glad we can intellectually talk, there are too many people to hung up on themselves to even sound human here.

I've learned recently that the appendix had a quite important function at one time, thousands of years ago actually. The appendix served as a redivide for good bacteria in the case you became sick and your system was "flushed out" due to the lack of medical assistant back then your body would then replenish your intestines with the very necessary bacteria. Now adays with bacteria in virtually everything, the appendix serves no purpose in that we can repopulate our intestinal bacteria through our general sourondings. This is what I have read anyway.

[–]Feinberg 0 points1 point ago

Yeah, I've seen the bacterial haven idea, too, and it really doesn't make sense. Short of broad spectrum antibiotics or possibly some mechanical means it just isn't possible to flush all the bacteria out of the gut without killing the gut's owner. Additionally, gut bacteria doesn't just live in the gut. Other mammals carry the same gut bacteria humans have, and those bacteria are adept at hitching rides on produce. Unless one prepares and cleans food exceedingly carefully, there is an influx of bacteria at every meal. The appendix could repopulate the gut flora, but that's a function which has never been necessary.

The appendix has also been found to perform lymph functions, which the Peyer's patches in the intestines do as well, and 'endocrine cells' have been found in the appendix in fetuses, suggesting it might be part of the endocrine system. There's no evidence that it's a necessary part of the endocrine system, however, or even that its role is a positive one. Just that there might be a connection.

Additionally, all of those possible uses have to balance against the fact that the appendix occasionally blows up, and the consideration that most animals do just fine with no appendix, so clearly it's not essential from a design standpoint.

[–]poorchris 0 points1 point ago

Ahh the runner up to the gay couple picture for most frequent r/atheism repost, we meet again!

[–]ChrisQF 0 points1 point ago

also known as the "God was a civil engineer" theory

[–]ImCaillouFool 0 points1 point ago

Intelligent design?! haha men were made out of mud and women came from a mans rib.

[–]Pseudogenesis 0 points1 point ago

Oh, I was hoping this would be the one quoted. I fucking love this guy.

[–]Pseudogenesis 0 points1 point ago

Oh, I was hoping this would be the one quoted. I fucking love this guy.

[–]forcedtolie 0 points1 point ago

it looked like he was holding a sniper from the thumbnail..

[–]Tanory07 0 points1 point ago

You know, I'd much rather just see the text typed up in a reddit post then see a giant paragraph on a picture. It feels like you're trying to use propoganda when you do that >_>

[–]squrs 0 points1 point ago

tldr

[–]VansAreOnlyForRape 0 points1 point ago

I dunno, but I know who designed that joke (wasn't NDT)

[–]unsaid14017 0 points1 point ago

It's already been proven (in the same studies that identified the actual use of the appendix in previous generations of more spatially distant groups of our species) that due to that close proximity of populace that they are indeed "useless" or "have no purpose." So he's technically still spot on. Unless we are in a society or group of people that is quite distant, the appendix's function is performed by external hosts and is no longer necessary unless we have an apocalypse that wipes out the bulk of our species.

[–]Feinberg 0 points1 point ago

Or even then, actually. Most mammals share a lot for the same digestive flora, and bacteria are hardy little suckers. Humans essentially have a constant influx of bacteria at all times.

[–]wellmade 0 points1 point ago

The appendix does have a purpose. It can be used as a refuge for symbiotic intestinal bacteria during cholera epidemics for example. However, we live in such close contact with other people that symbiotic bacteria spreads quickly from individual to individual. Neil deGrasse Tyson may be intelligent, but he is by no means correct in every statement.

[–]yhelothere 0 points1 point ago

All hail Neil!

[–]flo73557 0 points1 point ago

The appendix does have a purpose. It can be used as a refuge for symbiotic intestinal bacteria during cholera epidemics for example. However, we live in such close contact with other people that symbiotic bacteria spreads quickly from individual to individual. Neil deGrasse Tyson may be intelligent, but he is by no means correct in every statement.

[–]nasally27 0 points1 point ago

It's already been proven (in the same studies that identified the actual use of the appendix in previous generations of more spatially distant groups of our species) that due to that close proximity of populace that they are indeed "useless" or "have no purpose." So he's technically still spot on. Unless we are in a society or group of people that is quite distant, the appendix's function is performed by external hosts and is no longer necessary unless we have an apocalypse that wipes out the bulk of our species.

[–]Tlingit_Raven 0 points1 point ago

What does he say about obvious karma-whoring reposts?

Oh, just toss them in this sub. Got it.

[–]Sticky_3pk 0 points1 point ago

This subreddit gets more reposts than r/trees.

[–]Snow-dawg 0 points1 point ago

r/trees at least has an excuse...

[–]Kiwispam84 0 points1 point ago

Being agnostic, This is actually an idea I could get behind. Who says God has to be a perfect creator?

[–]supernatendo 2 points3 points ago

Why not go one step further and just say "Who says subatomic particles even need to be sentient?"

[–]MIMICS_HIVEMIND -1 points0 points ago

Great words from a great man. If only those fundies can see how ridiculous they are

[–]CtrlC_plus_CtrlV -3 points-2 points ago

He fails to take into account that when conditions are right, the sewage system is part of the entertainment complex.

[–]chemical_imbalance 1 point2 points ago

it pisses me off that you got downvoted.

[–]blastmast 2 points3 points ago

maybe for some people who are into scat and all that shit..

[–]philotimon -1 points0 points ago

The entertainment system in the sewage system joke is usually attributed to Robin Williams. I don't know the origin of that joke, but it would be bad for Robin's already tarnished reputation of being a joke stealer. God I hope he came up with it first. Not God, Science. I mean science.

[–]jemijohn -1 points0 points ago

"Who Designed That?" -- Neal DeGrass Tysen

"I Did" - GOD

[–]Feinberg 3 points4 points ago

The guy has three names and you spelled every one of them wrong.

[–]Zagorath 1 point2 points ago

Especially since it's in the title and URL.

[–]jemijohn 0 points1 point ago

That's One Hundred Percint In THE EYES OF GOD

[–]Feinberg 0 points1 point ago

Ahaha! Excellent!

[–]PenguinMonster -1 points0 points ago

This is a terrible argument against ID and it should stop being reposed already

-> ID does not assert there are things that are "too intricate" for science to explain, therefore they must have been created by an intelligent designer. ID asserts that there creation and intelligence aren't limited to human beings, and that there might be greater powers that exhibit a tendency to think and design much like we do.

-> Then he goes on to explain "stupid designs" in human beings to back up his point that the creator can't be very intelligent. Well if we are saying that ID exists because of his lame explanation than this is a perfect corollary to his argument. But if we are saying ID may exist because we humans have tendencies to design things and we have some intelligence, lets take a look at our own creations and bask in their undeniable perfection. But we can't do that because our creations have not been nor ever will be perfect. What is to say that the intelligent designer's creations must be perfect as well?

[–]Squeekme 0 points1 point ago

I suppose he is targeting how intelligent design is being used as a cover to teach that the Christian God created the universe, earth, life and humans. If a hypothesis of intelligent design strengthened it would most suggest alien interference or computer simulation. Neither of which is completely far-fetched as we as a species are nearing the achievement of both ourselves.

[–]PenguinMonster 0 points1 point ago

I would like to rework ID into a real science and take it away from the people who founded it and push their falsifiable theories.

That would mean giving less credence to the arguments that exist against it and changing its meaning on your own - ID never has an never will be a "christian" thing to me - it has and will always be a theory that can only be backed up by evidence, and discussed about in an intelligent and non-religious manner

[–]Squeekme 0 points1 point ago

A simulation hypothesis would most likely be given strength by work with high energy particle accelerators and quantum computing. An alien interference hypothesis would probably be strengthened by accident or surprise. Biology, chemistry, archaeology, anthropology, astronomy.. who knows.

[–]PenguinMonster 0 points1 point ago

there could in theory be both

[–]Squeekme 0 points1 point ago

Indeed. But there is really no evidence to support either of them, currently, that I know of. Unless you watch the History Channel a lot. In which case, Aliens.

[–]PenguinMonster 0 points1 point ago

I mean, some of the things I read arent too far fetched. Its just media sucks. Anyway, the hologram theory makes a lot of sense. Electro-magnetism and all - what are we all really? Just immersed in signals and waves and shit, containing all of this information.

[–]-Hastis- 0 points1 point ago

ID does not assert there are things that are "too intricate" for science to explain, therefore they must have been created by an intelligent designer

Ah, really? That's not what the official "experts" of ID tried to point out at the Dover trial...

So saying the eye or the bacterial flagellum is too complex is no longer a cool thing to say in the ID pseudoscience movement?

[–]PenguinMonster 0 points1 point ago

Yeah, the "experts" are apparently christian fundies who are pushing psuedoscientific and falsifiable evidence, I'm talking about the ID that is discussed among intellectuals and what not, I'm pretty sure that the statement "we dont know why, therefore God" is very unscientific and ID really needs a make-over to give it more merit - meaning actual scientists being interested in the theory as opposed to Christians trying to disprove evolution

[–]Tannerleaf 0 points1 point ago

Saying "Greater Powers did it", instead of "God did it", just pushes the problem up the chain though. Who made the Greater Powers, Even Greater Powers?

[–]PenguinMonster 0 points1 point ago

We would first have to answer the question "What are the Greater Powers and do they really exist" to be able to ask the question who made these powers. How is anyone supposed to know how something they don't know is real or not is made?

My mind is just not closed off to the possibility.

[–]Tannerleaf 0 points1 point ago

It still pushes the problem up one level though.

If human beings ever create a truly self-aware artificial intelligence, then from it's point of view, WE would be "The Greater Powers"; just the same as if something created US.

Now that we can work with DNA reasonably easily, I wonder if anyone's looked for evidence of artificiality in our construction yet?

[–]plainsnailing -3 points-2 points ago

See, I don't know why people never seen to find the arguments of design are compatible with evolution. There is always a possibility that the universe could have been pre-designed with set parameters before being left to it's own devices. Like a tent that pops into shape if thrown through the air. One thing is clear though, whoever designed whales forgot to remove the legs in the abdomen. Oh and whilst we're at it Behe's concept of irreducible complexity is proveably false.

[–]AManHasSpoken 1 point2 points ago

Except that they're not. A "design" would indicate that something even more complex would have "designed" it, which then causes the follow-up question: What designed the designer? And so forth ad infinitum.

Please, provide proof.

[–]PenguinMonster 0 points1 point ago

If you are happy with the idea that our universe does not need a designer to explain it, why does a theoretical designer need an explanation?

[–]AManHasSpoken 0 points1 point ago

Natural selection does not explain the origins of the universe. That's not what it's about. Not even in the slightest. It's about how life evolves over time through small, gradual changes. Not how it comes to be.

In other words, your comparison is not only irrelevant, but also invalid.

[–]PenguinMonster 0 points1 point ago

I think everyone who has half a brain knows and can admit the validy of natural selection. This process of evolution however does not really explain why we humans developed for ourselves the ability to contemplate the universe and discover its laws and use them to build our complex societies. I think the most interesting conclusion I can draw from natural selection is that it has created a species which is far superior to all of its counter-parts in intelligence. I honestly don't understand how our "higher" mind - not the one that is rooted in emotions, but one in logic, mathematics, science, philosophy, etc, came about.

Our higher mind contemplates and questions our universe and its origins, it may come to some conclusion that tells us that ID is possible - considering that if we take a look at ourselves, there was no real reason for us to evolve a higher mind. We could have remained among animals and used primitive tools and not have driven progress of our world as far as we have. What this says to me is that evolution might not just happen randomly, but it also may have a "goal" which is to produce an ever-more conscious being. I am defining conscious as a level of awareness of not only the self but also the world and the universe. Perhaps the ultimate goal of evolution is to create a being like ourselves, so that we may also in turn create something, adding to the ever increasing chaos and complexity in our universe.

Why do we have physical laws? Why do we have chemical reacions? Why do we have biological systems? Why is information stored in waves and signals? Why can we break down the building parts of our universe into smaller and smaller pieces that behave in more random ways, but as a whole behave so predictably? The complexity of our universe - not of our species - is outstanding. Even more so is the complexity of the minds that are able to comprehend this - and question it even more.

How does all of this relate at all to ID? Basically it says to people who try to claim that ID disproves evolution is that it does not have to. That the concept of an intelligent designer does not need to be at odds with evolution. And the argument that "who created the intelligent designer" is irrelevant since we are hypothesizing the ID. When we take that into account that its a made up theory based upon no evidence it can really take any form we please. This is why I believe ID is backed up by the evidence that we humans evolved intelligence and the ability to design within and understand the universe. Why would be so lucky to be the only ones? Why can't a theoretical ID not get his hands "dirty" with the details of natural selection but put in place a means to accomplish conscious beings without having much influence on the process?

[–]AManHasSpoken 0 points1 point ago

There was no "reason" for us to evolve anything. Hands, feet, critical thinking, all of it came about through small gradual changes that had no intent or purpose of its own. We didn't have an ancestor some aeons of time ago that decided they were going to walk up-right in a couple o' thousand years - there was simply a large enough group of primates that did, and they became more successful as a result. It is not "random", as you say, but it follows the law of probability. For every "successful" species, there's tens of thousands that aren't nearly as "successful". The only reason we would think that it was random chance would be because we were unaware of all the other species in the world.

That argument is far from irrelevant - it's the entire basis of your argument, the existence of this supposed "intelligent designer" that created the universe. Natural selection states that the species that is most fit to survive in an environment will be the most successful. If there is no environment - as the situation would have been before the dawn of the universe - then how could this "intelligent designer" species come to be? How could it evolve to such complexity that it was able to create an entirely new world, an ever-expanding and mystifying universe? And even if it could, if this intelligent designer created a world so that we could live in it, why would he make 99.9999999999999999999999% of it completely impossible to live in?

ID, as with all creationism, directly conflicts with evolution and natural selection for one specific reason. There is no order in creation. There was no designer that said "this planet is going to have life", "this planet won't have an atmosphere", or "this guy will grow up to become a carpenter and have five children". Yet, it happens. Life flourishes thanks to chemical reactions that trigger each other. Life adapts to other life that surrounds it. Eventually, there is going to be a person that grows up to be a carpenter and have five children - but not because an invisible wizard told him to.

[–]PenguinMonster 0 points1 point ago

I just think that perhaps consciousness need not nessisarily be a result of the chemical reactions in our brain. Perhaps consciousness is a result of some other phenomena that happens to exist within our brains as well. It just seems plausible to me, without questioning why, that consciousness can exist elsewhere. Perhaps the ID lives in a plane of existance completely foreign to our own - whose to say the waves which we cannot see but can measure and know exist do not have a conscioussness of some sort, or perhaps, have an origin which has a consciousness. After all our own thoughts are nothing but electromagnetic activity that occurs in our brains, and we have a consciousness. The basis of my argument is natural selection caused intelligence and consciousness to spawn within our species - why not also elsewhere?

Also I mean to say - with there being no "reason" to develop consciousness - that all other physical and emotional components of our being can easily be attributed as necessary for our continued survival - but the higher mind does not pay attention to survival - it thinks and acts on its own, it questions and develops systems to better its life, and as a result our bodies grew more and more unfit for our environment. What provoked the beginning of conscious thought? Of self awareness? EDIT: And awareness of much greater things than the self?

If consciousness is not limited to our species but is more fundamental in its nature than we think it is, there is no reason not to believe it is limited to the mechanisms of our mind. This I feel can be proven or falsified by "creating" a consciousness of our own. That is once we find out why consciousness exists. I read an interesting theory about entropy/consciousness which sparked my interest. It's not a far fetched idea that consciousness is a fundamental aspect of our universe. It is just difficult to say for certain how a consciousness arises but once we figure it out as a species it would be much easier to disprove/prove ID. If consciousness can really be attributed to entropy, does that mean other systems that aren't human beings also have a level of self awareness and the means of influencing their surroundings?

Until then, ID is a load of bs, based on religious notions, and not on scientific ones. EDIT: Again, I'm not a fan of the contemporary definition of ID, which is why I try to bring about an argument which is not as flawed and cannot be argued as easily. If you're confused about any of the points I'm trying to make just let me know because I'm not the best at explaining my ideas, which aren't held by many, and aren't discussed with many since they seem to go woosh

[–]AManHasSpoken 0 points1 point ago

Sure, consciousness could be created by some other, yet undiscovered process that occurs within our brains and has nothing to do with chemical reactions - but consider Occam's razor. You're inventing a second system that performs some action because you think that the first system isn't complex enough (which of course sparks the follow-up question, what caused that system to be created?), while it would be more straight-forward to simply think that the incredibly complex system of chemical reactions handles our thoughts for us.

That "higher mind" you speak of is entirely contradictive to the process of natural selection. Artificial selection, like dog-breeding, comes to mind.

In your third paragraph, I feel that you're treading into the realm of spiritual psuedoscience even deeper than before, into the purely speculative department. Of course other systems that aren't humans influence their surroundings, it happens all the time. Lions hunt zebras. Big fish eat small fish. If anything, that supports natural selection rather than contradict it.

Creationism has always been a load of bs, no matter what name you give it. It's not that your arguments woosh, it's just that they're invalid in the first place.

[–]PenguinMonster 0 points1 point ago

Sure

[–]PenguinMonster 0 points1 point ago

This may interest you What is Life?

Now please note that intelligent design isn't mentioned here explicitly - but it does hint at underlying foundations of consciousness which I speak of.

[–]AManHasSpoken 0 points1 point ago

And I would recommend reading The Greatest Show on Earth if you haven't already.

[–]PenguinMonster 0 points1 point ago

What is it about? I will definitely read it

[–]AManHasSpoken 0 points1 point ago

It's all about evolution, the evidence behind it, how it actually works. It's written by Richard Dawkins, who is probably one of the most knowledgeable individuals on the area.

[–]PenguinMonster 0 points1 point ago

I wish you hadn't gotten downvoted, can you elaborate more on irreducible complexity? I've never heard of it before

[–]plainsnailing 0 points1 point ago

Oh you haven't? Its essentially a theory concieved by one Michael Behe, who used scientific enquiry to search for evidence to counter evolution, and by extension validate inteligent design. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behe

In a summary, Behe argued that the human eye is irreducably complex as by observing the molecular construction of creatures less complex than ourselves, such as micro-organisms, and disecting their own retina in search of similar components that are to found in our own eyes, albeit on a more simplistic level of integrity. It was quite interesting stuff, and it was worthy of attention for a time as it showed how Christians could take science seriously and rationally, by observing, and not presuming.

Unfortunately for Behe, it was his work itself that ultimately contradicted his theory, as by prooving the existance of similar molecular design in ever more reduced format in other creatures, he was in fact proving how the slow evolution of organisms were adapting ever more sophisticated organs. At any rate, its really interesting stuff, and a not uncommon topic for discussion among those who wish to use logic to search for evidence of design, instead of just bashing on a poorly written book from thousands of years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

[–]PenguinMonster 0 points1 point ago

thanks for that!! Very interesting.

[–]AgnosticNotAtheist -2 points-1 points ago

I made this user name because R/Atheism pisses me off. Every week, they throw out Neil deGrasse Tyson quotes, or Carl Sagan, Einstein even more.... and these people were not, are not, and never will identify as Atheists. Please stop. Stick to Dawkins, or Hitchens. Whenever you use these other people who aren't Atheists to sell your ideology, it's false advertisement. Yes, it sounds good.. but he wasn't implying it in an Atheist way.

[–]Feinberg 3 points4 points ago

It's false advertizing because the guy saying it isn't an atheist, so he's not saying it in an atheist way.

That is some of the most breathtaking stupidity I've ever seen.

[–]AgnosticNotAtheist -3 points-2 points ago

How about don't take me out of context to try and defame me? I said

Whenever you use these other people who aren't Atheists to sell your ideology, it's false advertisement.

Young people who come here don't know he's not Atheist, so they continue seeing quotes and automatically assume he is. The reality is false. You want to sell your ideology, fine. But don't use low-ball marketing like this.

[–]Feinberg 1 point2 points ago

It doesn't matter if he's an atheist or not, it's a good quote. Honestly, it doesn't matter if it's Gandhi, the Pope, or Hitler. If it's a quote that relates to atheism in some way, it makes sense to post it here.

I have to wonder, though, what are the consequences of someone assuming he is an atheist? Are they going to mistakenly worship him at atheist mass or something?

Also, and this might be shocking for you, so hold on, this guy's views on religion are the same as those of almost everyone here. He doesn't believe in deities, and we don't believe in deities. That's atheism. If you want to call that agnosticism, fine, he's an agnostic, and we're all agnostics. It's semantics. That's all.

[–]tedlarraby -1 points0 points ago

Oh God I spit water all over everything in [God's] Creation!~~~

[–]show_me_ur_butthole -1 points0 points ago

tl;dr

[–]BolshevikMuppet -1 points0 points ago

Did he seriously steal a joke from Forgetting Sarah Marshall?

[–]Unclemom -1 points0 points ago

Not good enough for me, it's shows no understanding of what ID is. This is a knee jerk linguistic dichomy complaint not a response to the reason ID is philosophically weak. ID just says evolution is teachable from a thiest philosophical framework. It doesn't disprove it because much like quantum string theory which actually does use fuzzy math it attempts to answer questions beyond what we have answers for. ID to me takes just as much faith as an atheistic Dawkins position, or belief in the theory of relativity's explanation for gravity.

[–]randoma55hole -1 points0 points ago

If God does exist (a very big if) then there were a lot of flaws in our design. Care to explain that you fucking Mormons?

[–]NozzALa -1 points0 points ago

"I love it when Redditors orgasm at the very sight of me. Also when they pound my ass raw."

--Neil DeGrasse 'Upboats' Tyson.

[–]alieninfiltrator -3 points-2 points ago

It is funny that we all like to use 'authority' to make our case for us. This is an example where NDT is held up as the authority and the atheists cheer and clap at his brilliant dismissal of Intelligent Design. Christians do this too. The thing that makes something true or false is the underlying reality behind it, not who said so, God notwithstanding. Intelligent Design is a study of the complexities of the Universe and the study of information which is a kind of order. We recognize information and order and intuitively understand an intelligence was the cause. The information systems inside the cell are incredibly detailed. The human cell is a vastly more complex system than Darwin understood and he built his theory based on the simple adding up to the complex. Microbiology has shown that we start incredibly complicated, even at the fundamental level and build upon that to greater complexity. At the very least, the complexity of the cell needs a natural explanation from evolutionists if you are going to declare yourselves to have rebutted Intelligent Design. Such an explanation has not been provided but rather appeals are given to the scientific method such as 'we may not have the answer now but someday we will'. That is quite a bit of confidence, dare I say faith, in the unknown. There ought to be quite a bit more humility and verification of original sources rather than everyone appealing to their authority. Here are a few sources for folks who would like to examine things for themselves and make their own determination. I'm sure NDT is a busy guy in his field and hasn't read everything out there available on Intelligent Design such that he can make up your mind for you. Give NDT a break and do your own research.

http://www.designinference.com/ http://www.discovery.org/csc/ http://www.icr.org/index.php

[–]r3dd1t0r77 2 points3 points ago

I am a research associate who works with animal models on a daily basis. The most recent half of my life has been dedicated to studying biology. Everyone talks about ID (the ideas behind it etc.) but I have yet to meet anyone who takes it seriously/uses it in their work in the field of biology. The reason being: the modern theory of evolution is a MUCH BETTER predictor for future research/observations and has much more explanatory power. ID is built on incredulity and "just-so" explanations that DO NOT predict nor explain observations. ID does not and cannot explain the origins of diseases and vestiges. All it does is comment on complexities and assert that something "intelligent" must have been involved. Utterly useless to us, researchers.

[–]Feinberg 1 point2 points ago

It is funny that we all like to use 'authority' to make our case for us.

This isn't argument from authority. This is a particularly charismatic stating of the obvious. It's entertainment.

We recognize information and order and intuitively understand an intelligence was the cause.

Because science is all about intuition, right?

At the very least, the complexity of the cell needs a natural explanation from evolutionists if you are going to declare yourselves to have rebutted Intelligent Design.

A) There is a perfectly viable explanation, mechanism and all. B) There's nothing to rebut. Intelligent Design Creationism isn't science. It's propaganda and misinformation. C) Intelligent Design Creationism doesn't provide an explanation. It hypothesizes a possible source with no mechanism.

[–]Capercaillie 1 point2 points ago

I'm a biology professor. I have read everything out there on ID and irreducible complexity, and I'm glad to make up your mind for you:

ID is bullshit. It's god-of-the-gaps warmed-over creationism. "Information theory" is long on conjecture and made-up jargon, and pretty much zero on things like definitions and logic and paying attention to evidence. It's a bunch of gobbledegook designed (heh, heh) to fool people who aren't trained to recognize doublespeak dressed up in sciencey sounding mumbo-jumbo. The Discovery Institute is a "science" foundation funded by conservative Christian groups and with ties to Dominionist cults.

Glad I could help.

[–]PenguinMonster 0 points1 point ago

for someone who is so bent on "definitions and logic and evidence" I see a lack of all three in your post.

However one cannot deny the inherent relationship between information and the universe and entropy. "Information theory" is based on Shannon's discovery of the relationship between entropy and information. Information theory is also a new science that has existed for less than 100 years. Please why don't you instead of patronizing and shouting about how your beliefs are more correct than his, provide some background information in regards to your beliefs.

Seriously, your post has about as much "information" in it as a pathetic fundie's attempt to convert someone.

[–]PenguinMonster 0 points1 point ago

I dont know why you deleted your comment but please elaborate. Information Theory that I know of has very useful applications in computer science and electrical engineering. The entropy formula other engineers use to describe processes can also be applied to information and how much information can be stored within a message. Information Theory is an exact science and I don't think it has anything to do with intelligent design.

Please prove me wrong instead of telling me that I'm talking in "mumbo jumbo" - is entropy too big of a word for you or something?

[–]Capercaillie 0 points1 point ago

You're right--what I was referring to was information theory as it pertains to ID.

[–]PenguinMonster 0 points1 point ago

Oh okay.

[–]Capercaillie 0 points1 point ago

Yeah. I'm so sensitive to creationist blather that I tend to pop off prematurely. After I actually read your post, I saw I was being an idiot, so deleted my comment. Apologies.

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]FlapTeeSX -1 points0 points ago

In case you are wondering: You are getting downvoted because you said that NdGT is smart. He clearly isn't smart because if he were he wouldn't be an agnostic but an Atheists. He's a fucking retard who sometimes accidentally says things that are not retarded.

[–]Feinberg 1 point2 points ago

Yeah, no. He was getting downvoted because he's a racist shithead. That comment again:

Neil deGrasse Tyson is a living proof that niggers can be a very smart if they try it and that the Stormfront guys are full of shit.

[–]FlapTeeSX -1 points0 points ago

I don't get it? Saying that NdGT is smart and guys from Stormfront are full of shit is racist how?

[–]lacosaes0 -1 points0 points ago

I was suspecting that.

[–]FlapTeeSX -1 points0 points ago

You appear to be smart. You must be an Atheist!

[–]Curtman1 -5 points-4 points ago

So is he saying evolution is stupid since that's the way everything turned out.

[–]AManHasSpoken 1 point2 points ago

Natural selection is pretty stupid, yes. "Stupid" in that it doesn't plan long-term, which it is incapable of. (Of course it is, it's a natural phenomenon.) The recurrent laryngeal nerve is a perfect example.

[–]TheOthin 1 point2 points ago

He's saying evolution can give imperfect results. That's always been understood as a given for a system that works with the cards it's dealt.

On the other hand, if a perfect intelligent designer made everything, we would not expect such errors.

[–]The_Vizier 0 points1 point ago

indeed he is, but he's making Intelligent design seem the most retarded of the two. That's the point.

[–]bryangrossman 0 points1 point ago

LOL!!! Evolution has no set design or plan... No what he is saying is why would a supposed "intelligent Designer" do these things.

[–]gerrardsilva21 -2 points-1 points ago

Great quote but is that piss he is drinking?