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top 200 commentsshow all 219

[–]arbormama 24 points25 points ago

Tips only work if people want to use them. You can't lower the crime rate by hanging up posters that say "Pro-tip: don't be a criminal." Jeez, if only it were that easy.

I know the poster is meant to mock rape culture, but I feel like at some level it lets rapists off the hook by implying that their crimes are the result of them "not understanding consent." Bullshit. They're predators.

[–]chickenssaywhat 8 points9 points ago

Exactly. There is a billboard in my neighborhood that reads something like "A real man doesn't rape." Yes, real actual living men rape and it's not because no one told them NOT to. And women rape. And everyone can be raped. The solution is not to put up literature that only people who wouldn't rape someone would look at and go "Of course!"

[–]EveryoneElseIsWrong 1 point2 points ago

this is the point that i came here to make. although i do think that we should teach young boys what "consent" really means. sometimes i think boys assault girls without the actual "I AM GOING TO RAPE THIS CHICK" train of thought. we need to teach them that if i a girl is incoherent drunk, do not sleep with her. she is not really "consenting" if she's falling all over the place, even if she doesn't "stop" you, etc.

[–]Miss_Sophia 0 points1 point ago

I agree you could put horrible penalties and eduacte people about it, but there are people who still do it.

[–]HumanSieve 68 points69 points ago

Here is an idea for an anti-rape poster: show a man and a woman next to each other, and add the words: "sex should always be consensual". Now no-one is left out and no-one is insulted. A simple heads-up message that everyone can agree with and no-one has to take it personally.

EDIT: here you are: everyone friendly anti-rape poster

[–]discworldian 31 points32 points ago

You could just leave the people out altogether. Since a man and a woman together sounds like a het couple.

[–]HumanSieve 9 points10 points ago

Hmm. yes you're right. A successful poster should also have simplicity and draw attention. But just the words is so... no-one will notice it. Just show a bed or something.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

There is NO fucking hyphen in "no one!"

[–]moosecorpse 0 points1 point ago

Is there one in ass-hole?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

No.

[–]svullenballe 0 points1 point ago

N-o?

[–]tuba_man 8 points9 points ago

A Canadian city did basically that with a whole series of posters showing several different couples - gay, straight, interracial. Makes things personal while being mostly inclusive.

[–]emlgsh 4 points5 points ago

I agree, but I feel that depicting a bed unfairly discriminates against those of us who adhere to hammocks and futons, which are perfectly valid sleep style choices. I think a better poster would be an empty room.

[–]Korsyn 4 points5 points ago

Woah, now you're leaving out the homeless, we can't all have fancy houses like you city-folk.

[–]emlgsh 1 point2 points ago

Okay, so the room is out. With further consideration, I think the depiction of the sunlight is also unnecessarily biased towards the diurnal.

[–]digitalpencil 3 points4 points ago

how exactly are posters supposed to stop rape?

i don't think rapists going around thinking "man, that girls hot. i'd love to hold her down and fuck her" are going to have their mind changed by a poster informing them that the rest of us think "sex should be consensual"..

it's the equivalent of a billboard campaign reading "don't stab people in the chest", designed to sway the minds of murderers.

[–]discworldian 2 points3 points ago

Rapists aren't always people going around looking for random women to fuck unconsensually.

The world can't be divided into rapists and non-rapists, where rapists are scary bogeymen and not husbands, uncles, fathers, wives, girlfriends...any more than you could say that murders only get committed by "murderers" and not by husbands, wives, sisters, etc.

The posters are there to make people aware that sex should be consensual, and could be followed up by explaining what consent means.

That it isn't consensual if the other person is too drunk to give or withhold consent.

That it isn't funny or romantic or sexy to grab your girlfriend, drag her into bed and keep going even though she's frozen up and saying something you can't quite hear, but hey, may as well keep going because it's not like you're a rapist or something.

To make boys aware that if you're 15, 16, 17, 21, whatever, and so is your girlfriend and she really wants you to fuck her and your friends are egging you on to do it, be a man, and you don't want to, you don't feel ready, so she holds you down and makes you, even though you're the guy, even though you got an erection and got off, even though you didn't say no cos you love her, she cares about you, she'd never do anything to hurt you it was still rape.

These posters aren't specifically to stop people from raping. Just to stop rape culture.

[–]digitalpencil 1 point2 points ago

I sort of get it i guess, it raises awareness. I just don't think people are unaware of the above however we have differing opinions on point 2 so I can see how this would encourage discussion. I don't believe that sex is non-consensual if the other person is drunk though, it really depends on the individuals.

With that said though you raise valid points. I've never thought of rape as a culture, I don't believe it is either but your other points are interesting.

[–]discworldian 0 points1 point ago

I will edit to say "too drunk to give or withhold consent".

[–]digitalpencil 0 points1 point ago

i figured that's where you were headed, apologies for being pedantic.

[–]discworldian 1 point2 points ago

Being pedantic is good when it comes to definitions :)

[–]fridista 8 points9 points ago

Part of the problem may be that there are misconceptions about what is or is not consent. Personally, I favor the idea of enthusiastic consent. People need to be both assertive about their desire to have sex and be proactive in making sure they get consent from their partner. Sex is so often seen as something that all men always want, with dominance seen as an inherent part of men's sexuality, and something that good girls should never want. This hurts male and female victims.

Now gender. Part of the problem with rape culture is slut-shaming. We need to stop perpetuating the idea that sex is dirty and that women who have sex are bad women. Honestly, women are often taught that they should not be assertive, either about their desire to have sex (sluts) or their boundaries (prudes). I think it's absolutely wrong to argue that there is not gender aspect in rape.

Edit to add that I hate how almost the whole discussion (including my posts) focuses on hetero rape situations. When I went to a Take Back the Night event a couple years ago, many of the people who spoke about their own assaults mentioned how it intersected with their experiences with LGBT identity. That's something that I see ignored way too much and I apologize that my posts often ignore it as well.

[–]_lastly_ 2 points3 points ago

re: your edit. She Stole My Voice is a documentary about lesbian rape that is worth checking out.

[–]_lastly_ 10 points11 points ago

Do it. I support this message. Make it LGTB friendly too.

[–]HumanSieve 2 points3 points ago

done

[–]_lastly_ 2 points3 points ago

Haha! Awesome.

[–]TookieDeLaCreme 15 points16 points ago

See I have one kinda like this saved, that I like way better. It uses "people" instead of "women" which makes it non-gendered and doesn't seem to imply that only women can be raped.

Sexual Assault Prevention Tips Guaranteed to Work!

  1. Don’t put drugs in people’s drinks in order to control their behavior.
  2. When you see someone walking by themselves, leave them alone!
  3. If you pull over to help someone with car problems, remember not to assault them!
  4. NEVER open an unlocked door or window uninvited.
  5. If you are in an elevator and someone else gets in, DON’T ASSAULT THEM!
  6. Remember, people go to laundry to do their laundry, do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.
  7. USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM! If you are not able to stop yourself from assaulting people, ask a friend to stay with you while you are in public.
  8. Always be honest with people! Don’t pretend to be a caring friend in order to gain the trust of someone you want to assault. Consider telling them you plan to assault them. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the other person may take that as a sign that you do not plan to rape them.
  9. Don’t forget: you can’t have sex with someone unless they are awake!
  10. Carry a whistle! If you are worried you might assault someone "on accident” you can hand it to the person you are with, so they can blow it if you do.

[–]respectwalk 2 points3 points ago

Men can also be raped. But for a man to be raped by a woman, is far, FAR less likely.

U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (1999) estimated that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, with 99% of the offenders being male.

[–]TookieDeLaCreme 10 points11 points ago

Yes, but men can be raped by other men. Women can be raped by other women. Gender doesn't really matter in the case of "Nobody should be raped."

[–]respectwalk 11 points12 points ago

You are absolutely right. I got a little carried away with all the posts claiming women are equally frequent offenders, and forgot about men raping other men not being reflected in the list.

[–]Lati0s 1 point2 points ago

This data uses a definition of rape which requires that the perpetrator penetrates the victim, if you look at the recent cdc report which also tracks incidents where the victim is forced to penetrate you will see a much smaller disparity.

[–]meowmix435 49 points50 points ago

I don't know about others, but I don't really care for this ad/poster. Everyone knows that rape is a serious issue and this ad has an almost mocking tone to it. It's so...dumbed down that it strikes me as bordering on insensitive/somewhat offensive. Just my opinion.

[–]shortergirl 69 points70 points ago

It is mocking the idea that victims need to protect themselves against rape and emphasizing that rapists are responsible for rape, not victims. It isn't meant to mock rape or be insensitive towards the issue, it's meant to challenge rape culture and victim blaming.

[–]b0w3n 28 points29 points ago

It also goes above and beyond and implies that men are rape machines that can't control themselves in the presence of women.

[–]shortergirl 39 points40 points ago

No it doesn't. Rape tips suggesting that women need to dress demurely, never drink and never be alone with men do that. That is what is being mocked.

[–]tuba_man 9 points10 points ago

Right. Nobody gets angry about smoky the bear ads saying "only you can prevent forest fires". While slightly one-sided (men commit a vast majority of rapes, but not all, obviously - still miffed I need that disclaimer in a women's oriented subreddit), this poster is similar to the forest fire ones in that it addresses itself to the group mostly responsible for the problem.

Honestly I think people intentionally misinterpret this stuff. If you (in the general sense) think this poster calls all men rapists, then it stands to reason you think all men do at least one of these things on the list. (Edit: grammar) That sounds like a much worse view on men to me. If you are someone who does any of those things or finds them acceptable at all, it's time for some self-examination, not complaining about someone else's poster making you feel bad.

Second edit to add from my reply to Discovered_Solace: Yeah, this poster is condescending in tone. If it irks you, that's kinda the point. Welcome to what women usually deal with when the subject comes up. You've still got it easier: if you're not raping, you're not being told to change anything really. The gist of what women get told: "Change your behavior to avoid what someone else might do to you, even if they'll do it to you regardless of your behavior." Now that you've got a little taste of it, keep it in mind next time the subject comes up.

[–]Discovered_Solace 3 points4 points ago

I agree that it's targeting the right audience. And I do think that men do the things on the list. What irks me is that I do the first half of several of the items, but would never consider rape.

I think it's analogous to making a poster that read:

"Don't forget that when you drive, don't hit pedestrians, even if that gets you points in whatever video game you grew up playing. If you think you're going to hit a pedestrian, honk first, so that they can get out of the way."

Every driver knows not to hit pedestrians, but it's a degrading to drivers to inform them because it assumes they don't.

Edit: Wording.

[–]tuba_man 1 point2 points ago

Yeah, this poster is snarkier than I first read.

Still, if this is degrading, how do you think the usual advice given to women comes off to them? "Don't wear the wrong stuff" "Don't be in the wrong place" "Don't hang out with the wrong crowd" "Don't do X, Y, or Z, where any or all of those variables depend entirely on the situation and the potential perpetrators around you."

At least this poster works well in that if you aren't a rapist, then you aren't being told to change anything based on what someone else might or might not do.

[–]Discovered_Solace 1 point2 points ago

I suppose that's where I differ from many of the posters here. I've never really heard "the usual advice given to women" taken seriously. Growing up, it was always emphasized that it's the rapist's fault, not the victim.

I can totally see how it would be degrading toward women to tell them they're the victim, and I'd throw my support behind most anything that supports that message. I think I'm starting to like this poster more, for how much it's irritated me and made me want to participate in this sort of dialogue.

[–]tuba_man 2 points3 points ago

You're definitely in the minority there (at least in the cultural settings I'm aware of), but good on you for it.

Sometimes it's tough, especially with snark being pointed at or near you, to critically examine something and participate. And I'm glad to see that it's had a positive effect for you.

[–]migvelio 0 points1 point ago

Right. Nobody gets angry about smoky the bear ads saying "only you can prevent forest fires".

The big difference is that the mayority of forest fires are produced by careless people, not by arsonists in contrast to rape that the majority are produced by rapists or by people predisposed to commit rape, not by careless people. Nobody goes "Whoops! I should be more careful, I just raped someone, my bad.". Most forest fires are accidents, raping is not accidental.

[–]tuba_man 0 points1 point ago

True, but accidental or otherwise, the people who are responsible for the problem are the ones being targeted, which was what I was aiming my point for.

[–]migvelio -1 points0 points ago

But that doesn't help in any way.

[–]ether_reddit -1 points0 points ago

Nobody gets angry about smoky the bear ads saying "only you can prevent forest fires".

That's because forest fires are often (usually?) caused by accident. What statistics do you have showing that most rapes are caused by accident, by otherwise-wellmeaning people who accidentally raped someone?

[–]HumanSieve 7 points8 points ago

For whom do you think this poster is meant to be seen? For women? For men? For everyone? The first thing I thought about when I saw this ad, is: this poster is made by a man who is mocking the menblaming of seeing men as rape machines.

Seriously, a line like "carry a whistle if you are worried that you might assault someone.." What's a man supposed to think about that? It can only be a joke.

[–]shortergirl 9 points10 points ago

I think this poster is meant to be seen by everyone as an effort to get people to think deeply about rape myths. This particular poster is made by an anti-rape campaign in Scotland and the UK, but the original text has been floating around longer than that. It's usually attributed to a woman, but I've never been able to find the original source. That's the internet for you - people taking credit for things they didn't make and muddying the waters of real attribution.

I think that one is the clearest indication that the poster ISN'T implying that men are uncontrollable rape monsters. To me, it's clearly emphasizing that it's a choice to assault or rape someone, and that the person who makes that choice is the one responsible, not the victim. If it were not a choice, but an irresistible impulse, you would not be able to hand over the whistle so your friend could call for help.

[–]Discovered_Solace 2 points3 points ago

Personally, I don't think the poster is intended for everyone. I think that the poster is intended for women to assure them that the one that is responsible for rape is the rapist, not the victim.

Personally I don't feel like I'm a part of the intended audience because it feels inflammatory/accusatory to me.

I suppose, though, that it might be intended for me to read, feel accused and misjudged, and try to articulate why it irks me, because it certainly had that effect.

[–]LastPriority 19 points20 points ago

I disagree, the line that says if you help a woman on the side of a road fix her car, remember not to rape her.

That says men can't control themselves. This poster is doing the same thing as the ones that mock how women dress. They are one and the same. They both have the same message. A good message at the heart but terrible execution.

[–]shortergirl 16 points17 points ago

The poster never mentions the sex of the perpetrator. It literally says nothing about men, let alone that they are uncontrollable rapists.

It is mocking that message. It is not endorsing it.

[–]xzxzzx 1 point2 points ago

The poster never mentions the sex of the perpetrator.

Did you seriously read the poster with only one specified gender of the victim for all cases where it specified the gender and not see any implied gender of the rapist?

[–]sloanesky 3 points4 points ago

So basically you are saying that a poster that portrays common situations of male-initiated rape (e.g. drugs in drinks, car trouble, date rape) along with a female gendered victim ("her", "the women you're dating") is not intended to be targeted at men who, statistically speaking, are responsible for 99% of rapes of this nature?

I think its disingenuous to make such a claim unless you ignore statistics and the very clear subtext present in this poster. I don't think anyone would go through the trouble of making a poster intended for the <1% of rapists that are lesbian/transgendered/etc.

And that doesn't even begin to address the common stereotypes of male sexuality implicitly referenced in the condescending "tips" that the poster offers.

I very much support efforts to shift the dialogue away from victim blaming and focusing more on deterring perpetrators and I've seen some very well done posters and other campaigns that focus on that. In my opinion, however, posters like this are more harmful than helpful because they polarize the issue and make it men vs. women instead of men and women vs. rapists, and many male allies (such as myself) find themselves insulted and maligned by a cause they would love to support.

[–]shortergirl -2 points-1 points ago

I don't think that subtext you are seeing is either clear, intentional, or clearly intentional.

[–]srsly11111 -1 points0 points ago

many male allies (such as myself)

LOL. Delusion.

[–]HumanSieve 3 points4 points ago

If this poster is meant to be shown to men, it is either horribly insulting or mocking the efforts of other anti-rape ads. If this poster is meant to be shown to women, maybe it is given the interpretation that you are giving.

The poster does not have to mention men to imply the perpetrators are men. All victims in this poster are women and I have never seen anti-rape ads about women raping women.

[–]shortergirl 5 points6 points ago

All victims in this poster are women

Demonstrably false. 6, 7, 8, and 10 are all ambiguous about the sex of the victim.

[–]HumanSieve -2 points-1 points ago

Well, my point was that it is implied that the perpetrators are men. The frame is set in the first couple of tips. If one starts taking about people assaulting women, putting drugs in drinks, pulling over to help a woman with her car, approaching women on the street, behaving creepy towards women, I'm sure everyone is assuming that that conversation is about men being the perpetrators. I've hardly ever seen conversations about "don't rape" messages that are about the idea that women shouldn't be raping people. I don't mean this in the way of "men can get raped too", but in the way that people don't even have to mention men to imply that men are the perpetrators in public discussions about rape. So of course that is the way I interpret this poster. And I am pretty sure every man who ever saw an anti-rape ad will interpret it that way. If you tell me that if an anti-rape ad does not literally mention men, the ad is not saying men are the perpetrations, that is simply not the way these messages are working on a psychological level. For example, if I enter a public toilet for gentlemen and see "don't rape" where I am aiming, I will not assume that this message is meant for everyone, even though the word "men" is not written. It is all about the intention behind it, and if I see this poster that we are talking about in a public place, the intention behind it is that men are the perpetrators in these tips. Stop telling me that I am crazy.

[–]shortergirl 1 point2 points ago

I never told you, or anyone else, that they were crazy. You are reading something into what I said that I didn't say, just like you are reading something into the poster that it didn't say.

[–]scartol 2 points3 points ago

the line that says if you help a woman on the side of a road fix her car, remember not to rape her

To me this indicates that so many men have an attitude that "stranded woman = potential target", something that is ingrained into the thought process of most guys. "Oh her girls left the club and she doesn't have a ride? Here's my chance to get lucky!"

It's not about men being unable to control their actions, it's about so many of us being unwilling to control their thinking.

This is water.

[–]Discovered_Solace 3 points4 points ago

Perhaps it's because I grew up in a culture where the emphasis of rape prevention has always fallen on men's shoulders, and I haven't really ever heard the sentiment of "women need to be less seductive" ever taken seriously, but I find this ad to be a bit degrading.

I'm a college aged male, and I feel like this poster accuses me these things. Maybe it's the case that I can't take a joke, but considering how flagrant/offensive rape is, I doubt my sentiment is unique.

The same part of me that cringes at rape jokes cringes at this ad.

[–]_lastly_ 8 points9 points ago

Where did you grow up?

Also, another poster pointed out that the poster does not mention the sex of the perpetrator - just the victim. It's kind of curious that everyone assumes the potential rapist to be male.

[–]Discovered_Solace 2 points3 points ago

I grew up in Georgia, USA.

It's a fair point that the gender of the perpetrator wasn't explicitly stated, and while I find it interesting, I think I'd consider it to be implied.

As a young, larger than average male, I feel like I'm certainly a part of the same demographic that is considered to put drugs in girls' drinks, or take advantage of a girl walking alone, or help fix a tire, or break into someone's home.

While I can intellectually acknowledge anyone, women included, can be guilty of these crimes as well, it'd be harder for me to believe it, were I told the story in passing.

[–]_lastly_ 2 points3 points ago

a poster here de-constructs this poster here much better than I can.

While I get where you're coming from, the poster does not mention the sex of the perpetrator, it mentions the sex of the victim in only some points and I think the gut reaction to think rapist=man is at least in some part can be attributed to the fact that people rarely consider the fact that women can also be rapists.

[–]sloanesky 0 points1 point ago

I don't think its unreasonable to think the perpetrator is intended to be male when 6 out of 10 of the "tips" explicitly reference a female victim and the other tips mention situations where, statistically speaking, the odds of the perpetrator being a male are much much higher than the odds of them being female.

I think thats part of the reason this poster is so annoying to me, it tries to be inclusive by not labeling the sex of the perpetrator but from the examples and situations it chooses to portray its very clear that the message is intended for male would-be-rapists.

[–]shortergirl 4 points5 points ago

I don't know what to tell you. It doesn't mention men at all. It isn't accusing you, whether you feel that way or not.

[–]b0w3n 1 point2 points ago

Those were my sentiments. Taking away the gender would've been beneficial, but I am guessing that is the point of this poster.

[–]duckduck_goose 8 points9 points ago

I think the point is to make you feel uncomfortable.

[–]Mr_Walter_Sobchak 1 point2 points ago

It makes me feel uncomfortable that people think this poster makes a difference.

Want to stop rape, just point out to rapists how stupid it is, that'll learn 'em! Look no more rape, people are so much better now.

[–]duckduck_goose 2 points3 points ago

People need to talk more about consent and way more than No Means No

[–]Mr_Walter_Sobchak 1 point2 points ago

"if you pull over to help a woman try not to rape her"

You honestly think this isn't just hyperbolic nonsense? It makes me laugh at the lemmings who think being prepared is somehow harmful to the consent movement.

Telling people not to rape does not do anything to change the world and the badness that's out there.

[–]duckduck_goose 1 point2 points ago

What a positive worldview

[–]Mr_Walter_Sobchak 0 points1 point ago

if only Jeffrey Dahmer had seen the anti-cannibalism posters.

[–]migvelio 1 point2 points ago

Yes! it sounds like rape is an everyday silly thing. It depicts men like "I saw a woman in the street and whoops! when I realized I just raped her! sorry!". I think that a good poster should attack men that have an underlying predisposition to commit non-consensual acts related to sex and the cultural factors that influence these predisponed people and created a distorted view of women's integrity and lighten the real consequences of rape. A mocking poster like this won't change a single thing.

[–]TeddyCarter -4 points-3 points ago

I saw this post and I was like, "wow, so good". Now, after reading your comment, I'm like "goddamn, I'm an idiot." Happens all the time.

[–]ilovemybfsp33n 2 points3 points ago

This implies you can do nothing to prevent rape against yourself, when, in fact, you can. I don't like the attitude of this poster.

[–]dwmiswat 4 points5 points ago

Here are 10 top tips to stop thievery -

1> Dont steal.

2> Dont open locks

3> Dont break into homes

....

I don't really see this poster working.

[–]Ducky9202 26 points27 points ago

Although I know it's a play off of everything you hear to protect yourself from rape, every time I've seen this all I can think is I wish it was more.... gender inclusive. Men get raped too; women can rape.

[–]_lastly_ 20 points21 points ago

I hear that sentiment echoed a lot and while I obviously agree that not all men are rapists waiting to happen, the poster does make a good point. We teach people not to steal, not to drive drunk, not to be violent but the dialogue surrounding rape is mainly focused on how to NOT get raped. So while this poster misses the mark on gender inclusivity, it could be a good first step for promoting greater emphasis on responsible sexual behaviour for all people.

[–]AnnaLemma 34 points35 points ago

We teach people not to steal, not to drive drunk, not to be violent

Right, but we also teach people to lock their houses at night, not leave their GPS devices in the car, not the get in a car with a drunk driver, and avoid violent situations and/or learn basic self-defense.

Yet every time the subject of protecting yourself from rape comes up, people start howling "victim-blaming." I just don't see how the two things are connected: there will always bad people out there, so you can take steps to protect yourself and still not be the responsible party if something bad happens to you.

[–]Bakadan 2 points3 points ago

This is absolutely correct. We do teach people to lock their doors at night, and not leave their GPS in the car, but as a society we also teach people not to steal. What I believe is the biggest issue is that there is far too much emphasis on teaching women not to get raped, with very little effort put into teaching our men not to rape. There needs to be a multi-pronged approach to this discussion, and only in the last few years have we seen an effort to teach men how to treat women (I've seen several "Consent is sexy" posters). It's by no means a catch-all, but the point is that we can't put the onus solely on women. That's the heart of rape culture, and what so many of us are trying to fight.

[–]AnnaLemma 5 points6 points ago

You really believe that men don't know that rape is bad?? From what I'm seeing, the biggest problem is teaching what rape is.

[–]Bakadan 2 points3 points ago

Of course men know that rape is bad. And you're right, men don't know what rape is. As long as the men in this society think that any scantily-clad woman is "asking for it", or that sex should be expected after he pays for a meal, or "it doesn't count" if she's drunk, or any of a million possible circumstances, the jump from recognizing rape to preventing it will be easier. The real trick is teaching our society's men to view women as equals. That sex is something you do with someone, not to someone. That the "friend-zone" is a stupid construct. Once we're able to tear down some of these walls, we can start talking to both men and women about what rape really is, and how both sides can help prevent it.

[–]AnnaLemma 0 points1 point ago

You can't have it both ways. Either men "think that any scantily-clad woman is 'asking for it' " or clothing has no effect on who gets raped (btw - evidence seems to strongly favor the latter).

[–]fridista 6 points7 points ago

The two biggest problems I see are that the "precautions" women are told to take are usually mentioned after the fact (real helpful) and they don't really address the most common type of assault, one by a friend/partner. We generally trust our friends and partners, so we don't think we need to take precautions around them.

Edit for subject/verb agreement...

[–]AnnaLemma 2 points3 points ago

I agree that a good chunk of the advice going around isn't helpful - but unfortunately that also means that sound advice (don't get drunk to the point of losing control; keep tabs on your drink in a bar setting; be very very clear about your desires, even to the point of screaming "stop, this is rape!") is equally disregarded.

My main point is that there are steps which women (and men) can take to protect themselves - at least in part. What we as a nation if need is a real conversation about what works and what doesn't, and what does and does not constitute rape. Posters like this one are very counterproductive because (as has already been mentioned) they perpetuate the myth that rape is something done by strangers on a dark street, or by sociopaths who just can't help themselves. Both of these are completely false, as you said - not in that it doesn't happen, but in that it accounts for only a very small percentage of rapes.

TL;DR - I agree ;)

[–]_lastly_ 3 points4 points ago

Right, but we also teach people to lock their houses at night, not leave their GPS devices in the car, not the get in a car with a drunk driver, and avoid violent situations and/or learn basic self-defense.

YES - I am not saying we stop doing that. I am saying that there is no harm in addressing both sides of the coin. Will it stop all rape? Of course not. But teaching responsible sexual behaviour will ultimately change attitudes, especially since so much rape happens in a friendly context, not because some guy jumps out of the bushes and drags people off the street to rape.

[–]muonavon 7 points8 points ago

This is the heart of the problem, though. There are always bad people who will do bad things, and it's important to take necessary steps to keep yourself safe. Posters like this won't convince that kind of person of anything.

But, they also don't do anything for a person who would never in a million years dream of raping, but gets too drunk with someone, goes to bed, and has sex without ever realizing that it's unconsensual- because he didn't say no so she assumed he wanted it, or she tried to take it slow first but he kept kissing and touching and it ended up going further than she wanted to... And in this kind of situation, no one was roofied, or physically forced to do anything. There wasn't enough communication, which is the responsibility of BOTH parties.

Posters like this conflate violent rape with nonviolent rape, and spread a message against violent rape that real rapists will never hear, and cement even further in the mind of a nonviolent rapist that 'that's not me, and can never be me.' I think this causes more harm than good.

[–]_lastly_ 2 points3 points ago

There wasn't enough communication, which is the responsibility of BOTH parties.

Yes, which is why I'm placing emphasis on teaching responsible and respectful sexual behaviour to all people.

The poster itself is meant to be a mockery. I have never seen it outside of the internet and I doubt it will be plastered all over men's bathrooms any time soon.

[–]muonavon 1 point2 points ago

I agree, of course it's a mockery. But in the same way that rape jokes alienate many women and rape survivors, posters like this (anti-rape jokes) alienate lots of men and possible accidental rapists. I think it creates an us v. them mentality that perpetuates rape culture and makes it less likely to open those channels of communication and stop nonconsensual sex.

[–]_lastly_ 1 point2 points ago

I don't disagree with you but this poster does not define the gender of the perpetrator at all, and it defines the victim as a woman only in certain bullet points.

Please see here for an explanation from someone who knows more about the poster itself.

[–]whiteknight521 3 points4 points ago

I don't know about that, if you move to a major city for college you will hear a lot about how not to get your stuff stolen and how not to get mugged, etc. There are definitely ways to reduce your risk of being a victim for many different types of crime.

[–]_lastly_ 5 points6 points ago

Holy shit! People are making a lot of assumptions about my post. I am NOT AT ALL advocating against preventative methods. I am saying that both sides of the coin should be discussed - please see my other posts in the thread.

[–]whiteknight521 -2 points-1 points ago

No, it's fine, there are just a lot of people around reddit who will label you as a victim blamer if you so much as suggest there are methods to reduce the risk of being raped (cough...SRS...cough...).

[–][deleted] ago

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[–]_lastly_ 1 point2 points ago

I am NOT implying that we teach people to rape each other. And I am NOT implying that no one steals, etc. Nothing of what I've written implies that.

Regarding statistics - google it.

All I'm saying is addressing both sides of the coin will not hurt.

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]thegreatstripe 5 points6 points ago

It is NEVER the victims fault. Not even partially.

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]thegreatstripe 2 points3 points ago

I never said people shouldn't take precautions. But that does not change the fact that it is entirely the fault of the rapist

[–]_lastly_ 2 points3 points ago

You are seriously not getting it brother.

I didn't say we need to stop teaching people to take preventative measures. I didn't say that teaching people not to rape is going to stop all rape.

I said that teaching people responsible and respectful sexual attitudes would be beneficial to all.

[–]new_rags 4 points5 points ago

At my university, they distributed a gender-neutral version of this (e.g, "If you see someone walking alone at night, don't rape them!").

[–]digitalsmear 5 points6 points ago

Men get raped too; women can rape.

What happened to gender inclusivity?

Edit: now that I look at it again, your comment was thorough and not as specific as I had read it. Damn semi-colons. ;)

[–]fridista 10 points11 points ago

Male and female rape victims are treated differently, though. Generally, women are largely blamed and held responsible for their rapes, while men are just outright ignored as victims, assumed not to exist. They're both awful, but they're different treatments.

[–]respectwalk 18 points19 points ago

U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (1999) estimated that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, with 99% of the offenders being male.

This is why it is aimed towards a male rapist.

edit: (source) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#United_States (further info, although it excludes any gender)

[–]xzxzzx 2 points3 points ago

First, please provide a link to the source if you're quoting statistics. I can't find the original study, and usually government agency studies are quite easy to find -- I can only find people reciting the statistic; a bad sign.

Second, try using a source other than criminal data. What percentage of male rape victims with female rapists do you think go to the police?

Also, think critically: what definition of "rape" is being used by that source? Men being forced to penetrate a woman (non-consensual sex) is often not defined as "rape"; only men being penetrated--thus the statistic turns into "99% of the people that penetrated someone without consent in a sexual context were male".

[–]FramingEffect 0 points1 point ago

[–]respectwalk 0 points1 point ago

edit: Misread citation for link. (Original link) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#United_States

(further info, yet not very helpful) http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/press/cv10pr.cfm

[–]xzxzzx 2 points3 points ago

What you're missing is that the Wikipedia article you're linking gives that statistic, and gives a citation. The citation leads to the page FramingEffect linked to, which has no statistics on it (and no obvious way to get to statistics).

In other words, that Wikipedia article is simply once again parroting a statistic without giving a source.

[–]respectwalk 0 points1 point ago

You're absolutely right. I didn't think such a serious reference would be so blatantly undefined. Here's the best I could do, but it helps in no way: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/press/cv10pr.cfm

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]respectwalk -1 points0 points ago

This.

This is the truest comment ever posted on all of reddit. I sincerely appreciate you for posting it. I'm going to read it a couple more times, close this page, and go to bed. Thank you.

[–]xzxzzx -2 points-1 points ago

"Facts" are not as simple as you seem to think they are.

[–]Ducky9202 0 points1 point ago

Totally understand this, but I've know 5 male victims so I can't help but feel instead of "don't rape women", it should be "don't rape".

[–]JohnAdamZiolkowski 0 points1 point ago

That's when rape is defined is sexual assault on a woman. It's circular reasoning.

Anyone who thinks that this stat can justify targeting men as rapists is very ignorant.

[–]sloanesky 0 points1 point ago

U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (1999) estimated that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, with 99% of the offenders being male.

This is why it is aimed towards a male rapist.

This.

I don't understand why so many posters here are trying to claim that this poster is not aimed towards a male rapist. I understand the desire for a gender-inclusive poster focusing on the perpetrator rather than the victim side of rape prevention, but this poster is not one of them.

[–]Lati0s -1 points0 points ago

This is only because the definition of rape used requires that the assailant penetrates the victim

[–]respectwalk 0 points1 point ago

That would depend on when article 120 was added, but as of today it doesn't.

United States Federal Law [Title 10, Subtitle A, Chapter 47X, Section 920, Article 120] defines rape as: “ (a) Rape.— Any person subject to this chapter who causes another person of any age to engage in a sexual act by—

(1) using force against that other person;

(2) causing grievous bodily harm to any person;

(3) threatening or placing that other person in fear that any person will be subjected to death, grievous bodily harm, or kidnaping;

(4) rendering another person unconscious; or

(5) administering to another person by force or threat of force, or without the knowledge or permission of that person, a drug, intoxicant, or other similar substance and thereby substantially impairs the ability of that other person to appraise or control conduct;[2]

[–]Lati0s 0 points1 point ago

I'm pretty sure this was recently changed

[–]respectwalk 0 points1 point ago

I am quite shocked at how difficult/impossible it's been to find the date a law took effect, on the internet. If you have any luck, do let me know.

[–]eviltwinkie 17 points18 points ago

What I love about it is how wrong it is. Makes it sound like men can not help themselves and need to get some rape all the time. Hilarious.

[–]moscova89 2 points3 points ago

Come on over to GNC and get you some vitamin R?

[–]eviltwinkie 0 points1 point ago

Rape jokes are never funny, except when they are.

[–]moscova89 0 points1 point ago

It was more a joke on society's perception of men as GREAT RAPE BEASTS...

[–]eviltwinkie 0 points1 point ago

Crickey, look at that beaut?

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]Ducky9202 0 points1 point ago

Yes but you would be horrified at how many male victims are silenced or even laughed at. It's the same thing with domestic abuse. My uncle got a fork in his head from his abusive ex and needed stitches and the EMTs laughed at him. "Oh what did you do to get that?"

I just believe they should be free from the silence and shame.

[–]cantstopthe 6 points7 points ago

Why am I not surprised that the first comment in a women's sub on a post about rape is 'what about the menz?'

[–]discworldian 15 points16 points ago

Because that's the only thing wrong with this poster.

[–]atphosphate 1 point2 points ago

Because this poster is fine if you want to make sexist jokes, but if anybody wants to have this campaign taken seriously at all then it should avoid sexism.

[–]cantstopthe 8 points9 points ago

Jesus, people, it's NOT sexism to recognise that 99% of rapists are male and have anti-rape campaigns based around that fact. When you start acting like men and women are equally likely to be perpetrators you are pushing a LIE for no reason other than because the delicate male ego needs protecting. Every damn discussion about rape here has to be coached in terms of not offending men with facts. It's ridiculous.

[–]tuba_man 5 points6 points ago

Yep. No matter how you split the demographics of targets/victims, a majority of perpetrators are men.

As a dude who does his best not to be part of the problem, I don't see these posters as problematic at all. They're mocking the typical anti-rape advice given to women by telling everyone what not to do to women. Since it directly addresses common behaviors of rapists (and some not so common ones) and nothing I do is on or near that list, I don't feel insulted in the slightest.

[–]xzxzzx 1 point2 points ago

99% of reported rapes, mind you. Try using a source that isn't based on criminal data. Also, do you even know what definition of "rape" that statistic is based on?

Further, this poster doesn't claim a male rapist (that's just implied)--but it does only ever use "woman" when a gender-specific word is used.

I guess gay men, for example, who are at rather high risk, don't matter, because, you know, they're getting raped by other men. Their rapes don't count?

[–]Ducky9202 0 points1 point ago

You don't have to be gay to be raped by another man.

[–]xzxzzx 1 point2 points ago

That's true. Just pointing out that a widely understood to be oppressed group is included within "men". Sad that I should have to do that, but sometimes it helps to get the point across that it's something to address.

[–]Ducky9202 0 points1 point ago

Very true. I have friends and family who've been raped and they're men- which is why I was so annoyed by the don't rape women. One refuses to say he was raped because his ex wife was the lady who did it and he was asleep. He's an awesome sleep walker, but that's still rape.

[–]Ducky9202 0 points1 point ago

I know 5 male victims personally. I'm not arguing for pushing a lie to help protect the feelings of all the men who don't rape; I just want the male victims to be able to acknowledge their trauma. Instead I feel this poster is ignoring all male victims and saying if you're a male you can't be a victim, only a rapist. THAT is ridiculous. No victim should have to be forced into silence.

[–]atphosphate -1 points0 points ago

If you think your approach will work, by all means, continue. In my limited experience tact is almost always more effective.

[–]cantstopthe 0 points1 point ago

Over-emphasising a tiny proportion of rape is not tact. It's obscuring the reality, skewing perceptions, and minimising how rape disproportionately affects women in favour of pandering to men's 'feelings'. It's the definition of male privilege, that women cannot discuss rape without having to coach their language according to what will and won't make men happy.

[–]atphosphate 0 points1 point ago

I get your point, but I respectfully disagree. Out of curiosity, why did you put scare quotes around the word feelings?

[–]fridista 1 point2 points ago

I don't think the poster is supposed to be seen as a joke. It's old and has been posted many times, but it's not a joke- it's making a comment about victim blaming.

Also, I don't think it's sexist to recognize that a lot of women are sexually assaulted by men.

[–]tuba_man 2 points3 points ago

The poster is addressing perpetrators, not their targets. Since a vast majority of perpetrators are men, regardless of their victims, I think it's fair.

[–]Ducky9202 0 points1 point ago

I meant (mainly) that the poster made it sound mainly that only women are victims.

[–]duckduck_goose 7 points8 points ago

Is anyone else tired of the same things ending up on the frontpage? I've seen this rape poster 6 times on the frontpage in so many months. I clicked something else upvoted to the front page I just saw last week. I know people will get their underwear in a twist over this: but seriously have we all run out of things to say that we're reposting reposts?

Also tired of rape is a person's problem. Can we talk about Yes Means Yes and consent, or even experiences with rape from a woman genedered person's POV instead of "rape is an everyone's issue" debate rehashed? Is it really that hard to empathize with women gendered people here or does everyone that doesn't present as a woman have to step in with their 30 cents? It's getting old too.

[–]fridista 4 points5 points ago

I agree. The same arguments unfold the same way in each one of these posts.

[–]duckduck_goose 1 point2 points ago

I'm cringing at how this is already unfolding for the 500th time in TwoX now too.

[–]fridista 5 points6 points ago

I can't help but participate, but each time I think I have a bit less patience. I don't think I'll be hanging out in this post much longer.

[–]duckduck_goose 0 points1 point ago

Don't blame you.

[–]respectwalk 1 point2 points ago

And yet another post to 2X where the top-voted comment is about how bad it is for men.

U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (1999) estimated that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, with 99% of the offenders being male.

edit: (source) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#United_States

[–]shortergirl 10 points11 points ago

BJS only recently expanded their definition of rape to include male victims, and before that didn't include reports even where the state definition didn't discriminate, so I'm interested in how they collected data for this estimate - do you have a link?

(Not that I necessarily doubt the statistic, women are the majority of victims, I'm just curious about methodology.)

[–]respectwalk 0 points1 point ago

link

edit: If the link doesn't lead you to wikipedia, try this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#United_States

[–]shortergirl 5 points6 points ago

I'll have to remember to look later - the citation for that is to this page, which contains no statistics at all.

[–]respectwalk -1 points0 points ago

I'm not sure why it's not working. I have never even visited that other page, and it's working for me. This is the wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#United_States

[–]shortergirl 2 points3 points ago

I can see that just fine. The citation for the statistics you quoted is to what I linked, and what I linked contains no information whatsoever. It's a bad cite that no one has corrected.

[–]respectwalk 0 points1 point ago

I did not think the lack of source would be that blatantly non-existent. You're absolutely right. This is the closest I could find, and it doesn't provide any more information: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/press/cv10pr.cfm

[–]JohnAdamZiolkowski 2 points3 points ago

"Women are the majority of victims"

Wrong.

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/ page 18&19 specifically http://i.imgur.com/Ps9wW.jpg

[–]shortergirl 1 point2 points ago

Thank you. Have not seen that before.

[–]JohnAdamZiolkowski 1 point2 points ago

No problem. That entire report shows a lot of valuable things, including that men are just as likely to be victims of domestic violence, as well. Of course, the summary states that "women are disproportionately affected" by it, but when you look at the percentages, it's 28.8% for women and 28.5% for men have been victims of sexual assault, physical assault by an intimate partner, or stalked.

[–]shortergirl 1 point2 points ago

You don't have to, but can you point me to a specific table or page for that? I'm having trouble finding those particular numbers (possibly because I'm multi-tasking with bar review).

[–]JohnAdamZiolkowski 0 points1 point ago

Here is the pdf

Page 18 & 19 specifically outline the "penetrated by force" and "forced to penetrate".

Page 39 states

Nearly 3 in 10 women in the United States (28.8% or approximately 34.3 million) have experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner

and then

More than 1 in 4 men in the United States (28.5%) has experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner at some point in their lifetime.

It is disgusting to me that studies like this play with the numbers. "Nearly 3 in 10" sounds a lot like 30%, while "More than 1 in 4" sounds like it is closer to 25%. This is such a small change, it shouldn't matter anyway, but the actual difference in rates is 0.3%, not 5.0%. Also note how the women-as-majority-of-victims stat gives a solid amount, (34.3 million) while the men-are-also-victims-sometimes one does not. A quick check of Wolfram Alpha gives the numbers to be 44.52 million women and 42.58 million men (these numbers are more affected by the larger female population compared to male than the actual percentage of victims). Again, I think it is disgusting to play with rounding to discount over 40 million people.

[–]Bloodislube 6 points7 points ago

I go out with friends to a bar and have some drinks. We have a lot to drink and generally have a good night. We go back to one of their houses to hang out before I need to go home. Four people in the house see me almost pass out in the hallway of their apartment. One of my friends leads me into their bedroom to "go to sleep because I'm too drunk to go home". I wake up naked and in their bed, obviously having had sex with them that night. This would never have happened it if I was sober.

Here is the kicker: I'm male.

If I was female people would be screaming rape. Instead I was told that I made a mistake and it was my fault. My friends make fun of me for sleeping with her, and I am not allowed to say that it actually really hurts me. In some countries this situation isn't even considered rape because I was not penetrated, and in other countries it isn't rape because legally woman cannot rape. Excuse me if I do not buy into the whole "99% of rapists are men". The reason these statistics are so biased against men is because the laws are written in a way that creates these biases.

Not all rapists are men, and not all rape victims are women. These are just the socially/legally acceptable victims and criminals.

Rape prevention needs to work by raising awareness of the ways you can protect yourself from being in situations that you can get raped AND to prevent rapists from committing the crime. Just like we tell people not to steal, but also have preventative measures like locking your doors or having security features in stores to prevent theft. It is not a one way street.

edit: I accidentally a word.

[–]respectwalk 5 points6 points ago

I am sorry you got raped. This is something that I believe nobody deserves.

I make no claim to it being a one-way street. I never said that women are incapable of rape. Statistics can be wrong and inaccurate. But as off as those numbers may be, male rapists outnumber female rapists. To believe that there is an equal number of offenders across genders, or that women rape more than men, is just plain wrong.

Also, had you been a woman, don't be so sure people would have been "screaming rape" and not blaming you. It's actually very common (too common) for women to get the blame for being raped.

[–]Bloodislube 1 point2 points ago

I understand that there are probably a much higher number of men who rape than women. I also understand that most women would also be put in my position where they were blamed. It is the fact that I actually heard from a couple close friends "OMG if you were a girl that would have been rape!" that made me realize that I'd actually been raped. I had bought into the idea that it is impossible for a man to get raped.

The reason I responded with that story was only to draw attention to the fact that this is not just a problem for women. Even if the majority of cases the woman is the victim, we can't (as a society) aim the solution at one gender less we risk sending the message that only one gender can rape. This poster makes fun of the "rape prevention techniques" that we teach people (well women actually). It points out that we need to prevent people from committing the crime instead of relying on the victim to keep themselves safe. I think this undermines the fact that it is a two way street and that we need to do BOTH. You can tell people its wrong to kill, and have high criminal penalties for murder, but that doesn't mean that I should expect to be able to walk into an area known for muggings and murder, with a briefcase full of money, and expect to come out perfectly fine.

Although 2x is a woman oriented sub, I still feel like this puts the blame on men as a whole and that isn't right. You posting that statistic just set me off that's all.

[–]Lati0s 0 points1 point ago

This is only because the definition of rape here requires that the assailant penetrates the victim. If you include incidences where the victim id forced to penetrate, the rates become much more equal.

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]xzxzzx 0 points1 point ago

Why don't you present a link with evidence, then?

[–]korrekt 0 points1 point ago

This. Some of the comments on this thread are absolutely ridiculous.

[–]VillainousVagrant 0 points1 point ago

I feel like men contradict themselves when it comes to this. They want us to protect ourselves by not dressing slutty, and not getting drunk and living in pretty much paranoid fear- but when posters like these come up, they feel like it makes men look like horrible rape machines.

So I wonder, am I supposed to take extra precautions and be weary of men, or am I supposed to not be scared of being raped at all by men?

[–]xzxzzx 0 points1 point ago

Men aren't a monolithic entity.

Further, if you think these two things are true (I'm not saying they are):

  • Rapists rape because they succumb to overwhelming lust. And
  • Rapists cannot be convinced not to rape; there's something wrong with them.

Then there's no conflict, because since you can't convince rapists and have a campaign targeted at, then you're implying rape is a choice for men in general, and the advice "don't wear provocative clothing" makes sense too, since it'd reduce the lust felt by potential rapists.

Most men aren't rapists, and can only understand it through the way they view the world: "what could get me to rape someone? Well, I guess if the reason I usually had to have sex with someone (lust) was so strong I couldn't ignore it."

[–]dakunism 3 points4 points ago

Soooo, guys can't be raped??

[–]ps2dude756 0 points1 point ago

I'm just glad that, despite large amounts of internal struggle, I managed to fight my animal instincts and not rape anyone yesterday! I hope today goes as well. /s

[–]Redditor_Please -2 points-1 points ago

I have a hard time believing this poster would do a bit of good.

This is akin to making posters that say "Please don't murder people with a gun" or "Please don't steal from this establishment." Somehow, I don't think criminals got the memo.

[–]Lati0s 0 points1 point ago

I don't think this poster is actually attempting to prevent rapes, its goal is to point out that rape is not the fault of the victim.

[–]GobiasACupOfCoffee 0 points1 point ago

The thing I don't like about this poster is that it seems to assume that men who would rape just need to be reminded that it's bad. Like they don't realise that already. Like you could say it to a rapist and would be like "Oh yeah, raping's bad isn't it? Oops. I better stop doing that."

It's ridiculous. It doesn't deter anyone who would rape and it insults a lot of the people who wouldn't. Whoever's idea it was shouldn't be consulted the next time a decision like this is made.

It may be difficult for an anti-rape organisation in general, because they are trying to affect change, but how do you do that in this case? They don't have much power beyond saying "Don't do it" It's like having an anti-murder organisation. Everyone knows you're not supposed to do it. But some people are total fucking cunts who will do it anyway.

The only way to stop rape is to teach rapists how to respect other people. But I fear that for most rapists, it's already too late. A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they will never sit in. It's up to parents to teach their children how to respect others. Unfortunately we'll never find a solution that will fix people who have been broken by their upbringing. Not that I'm absolving rapists. I don't think we have harsh enough punishments for rape. Although tbh I wouldn't support the punishments that I feel are harsh enough because I'm against the death penalty.

Bottom line is there are far too many bad parents out there allowed to have as many idiot, cunt children as they want. No one is even watching over them. You need a license to drive a car, but anyone can bring a kid into the world without even the slightest oversight. Until people are forced to prove that they are fit to have children, and prohibited from having them if they can't, the world will be chock full of total cunts who are a result of unqualified parents.

That went to a place I wasn't expecting when I started writing and I can see a lot of people vehemently disagreeing with me on this. Which I understand. It feels kinda like eugenics or something. But it's honestly the only way I can see bringing down things like rape and murder. Not exterminating them, but severely decreasing them.

[–]nepidae -4 points-3 points ago

Talking to people like they are five usually has positive results.