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[–]Dutwa03 236 points237 points ago

There really isn't a debate.

[–]Bamont 68 points69 points ago

This.

There aren't two competing theories or ideas that both could potentially share an equal level of weight. There's an accepted scientific theory with a metric fuck-ton of evidence, and then there's an idea that barely qualifies as a hypothesis that has no evidence to support it.

You don't prove your hypothesis by trying to discredit a current scientific theory through lobbying, schools, and the court system. You provide evidence, peer-reviewed articles, and a mountain of evidence to support your position.

[–]SiS-Shadowman 16 points17 points ago

Slow down. Are you telling me that the world isn't black & white? Whoa... this is hard to swallow.

[–]ZombieFaceXP 4 points5 points ago

This is hard to swallow

Twss

[–]EpicDonutsistaken 3 points4 points ago

evidence

and a mountain of evidence

Redundancy is fun and fun!

[–]epitrip -1 points0 points ago

really... equal weight??

[–]1trull2many 11 points12 points ago

You're right, it's not.

But it's part of a larger debate: Do we follow tradition, hearsay, and popularity, or do we think for ourselves and follow observable evidence? I'm sure religious people feel differently, though. But it still essentially boils down to--in less biased terms--Emotions vs. Logic or Theism vs. Modernism.

I have a feeling that theists feel like winning the popular opinion will make them right, and if they prove one tiny facet of science wrong, the whole "house of cards" (as they see it) comes tumbling down. What they fail to realize is that science excavated the land, laid the foundation, and did the masonry, then planned out the mechanical, electrical, and plumbing; if one little aspect fails, it will just be replaced and updated, only strengthening the whole structure.

They fail to see the cards for the house they're living in.

[–]Can-eh-dian 16 points17 points ago

There is a debate, it's just not among scientists. Good thing science isn't a democracy!

[–]Uuugggg 13 points14 points ago

There is a disagreement, but no debate.

[–]mustieles 4 points5 points ago

There is a debate, the same way it was debated wether the earth was round.

[–]milkyjoe241 3 points4 points ago

At least there's a healthy debate about this being a debate going on.

[–]thinkingmachine 0 points1 point ago

Whoa now, I'm not so sure this qualifies as a debate. What are the parameters of a debate? What are the essential properties?

I think we're just settling on what words to use in what context; the debate commences henceforth.

[–]boggart777 0 points1 point ago

the same way it is debated the earth is round

[–]mustieles 0 points1 point ago

It is? Where? By whom?

[–]boggart777 0 points1 point ago

religious fundamentalist, it's right there in the bible. and i can support it biblically right now, in the same way i could support ID, nonsensically, by ignoring reality in favor of religious conviction.... you new here? seriously, try me, the earth is flat, mother fucker, it's in Issiah. it sits on pillars. if it didn't sit on pillars how does it stay up? "orbit?" HORSESHIT, the earth would slowly droop out of orbit as it was pulled toward the galactic center also known as HEAVEN, but YOU'll never find out!

[–]boggart777 0 points1 point ago

i assume this is parody, but parody based on views from the very recent past. http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

[–]godlessatheist 4 points5 points ago

What I think is funny is when I was religious I never thought about the creation story and evolution together. I believed in both yet I never thought about evolution in church and never thought about the creation story in science class. I'm sure most nonbelievers here can say that the moment they went from not thinking about it to really thinking about it Cognitive dissonance takes place. You begin to think about Adam and Eve and then about how the entire book of Genesis is false if evolution were true. If Genesis is false then this means original sin is also false. If original sin is false then what did Jesus save us from?

Yes I understand Catholics can believe in evolution especially considering I'm an ex-Catholic but you have to realize that without Adam and Eve Jesus's Crucifixion means nothing. This thought is what made me fall into a dark whole of Young Earth Creationism. I managed to pull myself out but trust me once you believe that the bible holds literal truth because the bible says so your rationality is pretty hard to get back.

[–]wayndom 1 point2 points ago

When I was a believer (in the 1950's) I just thought Genesis was metaphorical, as did every other Christian I ever knew. Nobody questioned evolution then. It was just the obvious, accepted reality.

[–]godlessatheist 1 point2 points ago

Well yeah I had this view also. My transition from Young Earth Creationism to Atheism had a period of liberal Christianity in between. I also had this view before my Young Earth Creationist view that Genesis was metaphorical. The only problem was how I was supposed to accept that Adam and Eve did not exist but that original sin somehow does.

[–]wayndom 0 points1 point ago

I never believed in original sin. Was sent to a Lutheran Sunday school for years, never even heard it mentioned. First time I ever learned of it was from a Catholic friend, and then I thought it was an exclusively Catholic belief. It's gotta be one of the stupidest ideas in the bible...

[–]Buffalox 0 points1 point ago

It's hard to choose between eternal life and reality. Facing the fact that loved ones that die really die, and you won't see them again.

You were strong enough to face reality in the end, with the one consoling fact that nobody is going to hell either.

Well done!

Live long and prosper. ;)

[–]godlessatheist 0 points1 point ago

Yeah, the toughest part is not knowing that I will die, it's knowing that my loved ones will die. Probably the worst thing about living a long life is having to deal with that fact that many of your friends have died.

[–]dhasenan 0 points1 point ago

Fine, Mr Smarty Pants, you tell us whether Homo erectus is a direct human ancestor or just closely related.

[–]Coryshepard117 0 points1 point ago

It makes me sad when I see people who think otherwise. Religious indoctrination is powerful.

[–]ZombieFaceXP 0 points1 point ago

Come again?

[–]gryts 0 points1 point ago

It's kind of obvious what he's saying... the first person said it's not debate, the second person said it makes him sad when he sees people who think otherwise.

[–]ZombieFaceXP -1 points0 points ago

I cant tell which comment he is replying to. My mobile browser doesnt make it exactly clear

[–]sdawsey 0 points1 point ago

Came here to say this. The only people debating whether evolution is real are not scientifically qualified to comment.

Within the scientific community there is only consensus.

[–]Sketchy_Meister 0 points1 point ago

Correct. Because Creationism isn't trying to take Evolution's place. Creationism tries to cover the beginning of everything. Evolution covers the change/growth/evolution of everything. Creationism and the Big Bang would be the two competing views.

[–]droodjerky 26 points27 points ago

This is closer to what happened.

[–]DickWhiskey 4 points5 points ago

Thanks for posting that. I wonder if OP's picture is contributing to the misunderstanding of evolution... I personally prefer a cladogram like this or this to represent it in a more accurate but still simple manner.

[–]Dacyon 3 points4 points ago

Thank you for posting your cladograms. As a geology professor I had this previous semester was fond of saying, human evolution (and obviously evolution in general) is not a conga line.

The OP's original picture is well-known, but holds a bias towards the concept that Homo sapiens is the pinnacle of evolution, the end result if you will. Evolution is not progression, it merely is a process by which those individual organisms that can survive better in their local, changing environment shall produce more offspring.

I have heard the saying that anyone who believes humans are more evolved than other organisms, including our fellow apes, needs to be dropped stark-naked into the middle of the Congo and identify whether they or the species adapted to that environment are more likely to survive.

[–]DickWhiskey 2 points3 points ago

Excellent, excellent point. I was only thinking of the implications it had in the single-line representation, but you are absolutely correct. Not only is it not a single line, but it's also non-linear and not unidirectional. It's entirely possible that the intelligence of Homo sapiens will someday be a liability instead of an advantage and they will begin to be selected to be a more chimp-like species...It would still be evolution.

[–]Tiktaky 0 points1 point ago

The "conga line" image also fuels that infuriating ignorant response of "Well I didn't evolve from a monkey". No shit Sherlock, None of us evolved from a monkey...

It also confuses those with no understanding of evolution into wondering why we still have monkeys, if humans are seen as the end result, why do we keep the 'rough drafts'?

[–]totestoro 2 points3 points ago

Is there a higher res version of this?

[–]droodjerky 1 point2 points ago

I've been looking. Unable to pull one up.

[–]Dacyon 1 point2 points ago

“There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.”

  • Charles Darwin

[–]HumanSieve 0 points1 point ago

Endless forms most beautiful

[–]thinkingmachine 16 points17 points ago

I'm sure we can clear up any misconceptions you have.

The theory is really so simple, and so proven by diverse areas of research (some of which you see in this picture) that only extremely biased indoctrination could make anyone have doubts about it. Don't feel ashamed if that's you right now.

[–]colinsteadman 1 point2 points ago

The simplicity really surprised me. I read about 5 pages of 'The Selfish Gene' (the chapter titled 'The Replicators') and everything just fell into place.

By comparison creationism is absurd. Can people really believe that some kind of extra-cosmic creature waved his magic wand and brought people into existence from dirt?

[–]r3dd1t0r77 0 points1 point ago

Can people really believe that some kind of extra-cosmic creature waved his magic wand and brought people into existence from dirt?

People are capable of believing just about anything. It really comes down to how those beliefs are justified. Science has shown examples of and a mechanism for evolution. We are still waiting to see evidence of a deity or an advanced alien race.

[–]colinsteadman 0 points1 point ago

Indeed. Have you heard the one about us living inside a computer simulation? That one they have found evidence for, which so far has not been explainable by any other means. The important words there are "so far"... That might not always be the case.

[–]r3dd1t0r77 0 points1 point ago

That one they have found evidence for

What evidence are you referring to, specifically?

[–]colinsteadman 1 point2 points ago

The hypothesis is that any simulator, no matter how powerful could not simulate reality perfectly. For example Pi has endless decimal places and would need to be cut short to avoid consuming all resources in the simulation. This would lead to errors creeping into the system which would need to be corrected periodically. So the thinking is that if you existed in a simulation you could look for changes in values that shouldnt change. So they looked and such a change have been found. Apparently light from a very distance star billions of light years away has a different frequency (or something) from the frequency we measure today for the same type of light, and so far no one has been able to explain why the value has changed. The information supports the hypothesis, for now, but someone might find another reason for it at any time. It's very intriguing though, don't you think. You can read all about it in Marcus Chowns book 'The Never Ending Days Of Being Dead'.

[–]r3dd1t0r77 0 points1 point ago

Yea that is really cool. I just like the whole thought process of, "If this is the case, what should we expect to find that would not exist under different circumstances?" It's a thought process I wish more people would utilize, rather than just believing whatever one was brought up to believe.

I will have to look into this one because I have not yet come across such a finding that may perhaps point to a sort of "Matrix"-like existence. Thanks!

[–]colinsteadman 0 points1 point ago

Moores law suggests that by 2030 we'll have the processing power in a 1000USD processor to simulate a human mind. By 2054 all human minds could be simulated on a thousands dollars of computer hardware. So what about 100 years from now, or 1,000,000 years? There can be only one real reality, but on suffciently powerful hardware there can be any number of simulations The logical conclusion is that the odds more or less guarantee that we are currently in a simulation just like the Matrix.

Who knows what the real truth is? But it's fun to think about. I think you'd enjoy the book.

[–]bobbykid 1 point2 points ago

Upvoted for not being a jackass about some people having a background of indoctrination. Everyone is so quick to attack people who don't believe in evolution as if they were defending an idea they came up with on their own. There needs to be more recognition of the fact that some people come from an entirely different environment.

[–]G4M3F4C3 18 points19 points ago

No really, there is NOT a debate. There are facts and there are various groups of borderline lunatics who wish these facts didn't exist, but there is certainly not a debate. Well, at least not among any sort of rational people.

[–]Buffalox 2 points3 points ago

There is debate only if religious superstitious ignorance is considered as valid as knowledge based on proven evidence.

[–]Slowcow7 10 points11 points ago

I came here to say this also. There is NO debate. Evolution happened and is still happening. The only 'debate' is the one happening in your own head about your level of understanding evolution. Get out there and read some books on the subject.

[–]wayndom 8 points9 points ago

frenchy612, do you have any science education at all? And if so, what kind of education, and to what extent (grade school, high school, college)? Do you live in the bible belt of the United States?

I'm really interested in knowing this, because the only "debate" over evolution is between educated people and willfully ignorant people.

Allow me to broaden your education a little.

First, it's important to understand that in science, "theory" does NOT mean "unproved idea." It doesn't mean, "guess" or "hypothesis," either. It means an idea that explains a wide variety of phenomena. Newton's theory of gravity, for example not only explains why things fall toward the earth, it also explains how and why the moon orbits the earth, the earth orbits the sun, etc.

When a scientific theory is validated (as many hundreds have been) it does NOT stop being a theory, and does not become a fact. The reason is because "fact" means a single piece of information that doesn't relate to anything else. For example, "chickens have three-toed feet," is a fact. It doesn't tell you anything else about chickens, feet, toes or any other birds. That's what a fact is, and that's why no theory is ever called a fact.

Lastly, the theory of evolution is the most confirmed, most well-documented theory with the most evidence demonstrating its correctness, in the history of science. ALL modern biology is based on it, and ALL medical research is centered on it. It has led to virtually all modern biological knowledge.

If you would like to further your education, I invite you to read The Greatest Show on Earth. But please, don't tell people you're not sure where you stand on the debate. You're only embarrassing yourself, whether you realize it or not.

"Of course, like every other man of intelligence and education I do believe in organic evolution. It surprises me that at this late date such questions should be raised."

  • Letter from Woodrow Wilson to Winterton C. Curtis (29 August 1922)

[–]Nashmann 10 points11 points ago

As others have said.. there is no debate. Either you accept evolution as a fact or youre a goddamn moron.

It's as simple as that.

[–]MisterNiceGuy001 1 point2 points ago

Then why post a pic mocking those who don't "believe" in evolution when you yourself aren't sure? Come on, bro.

[–]Rixxali 2 points3 points ago

If you look at the facts, and all the data which exists in geology, biology, botany, etc., there is no debate. However, if you think that there is a high probability that god poofed everything into existence, and also added all irrefutable evidence that things evolved, and got rid of any evidence that showed that things poofed into existence, I can see where you might be confused.

[–]theGrammer_nazi 2 points3 points ago

Let's look at this "Debate": On the Creation side, the proof of creation/disproof of evolution being presented is the bible. On the evolution side, the proof of evolution/disproof of biblical creation is... ALL OF SCIENCE, EVER.

[–]DickWhiskey 2 points3 points ago

I hope we can all be a little less hostile with people like OP. It may be satisfying to say things like "You either believe in evolution or you're a goddamn moron," but let's remember that it's not OP's fault that he was likely brought up in a religious household that predisposed him against it. The fact that he posted something like this shows that he's open to it though, which makes him better than many others out there. Treating OP and other people in similar circumstances with a bit of respect would help more in the long run.

[–]andr0medam31 1 point2 points ago

To help make your mind up, look up MRSA. multi-drug resistant staphylococcus aureus. Once upon a time, normal infectious bacteria went around, causing strife. Then we started using drugs to combat them. The drugs wiped out 99.9% of any given infection...in other words, only the susceptible ones. The resistant ones were free to multiply. Over time, they became immune to many drugs, and today they're happily munching on human flesh. (A bit more complicated, but this is the short of it. Remember, kids, when a doctor gives you antibiotics, take them ALL. Half-dead infections rebound with a vengeance.)

One of the best examples of evolution.

[–]I_hate_Slogan_Shirts 1 point2 points ago

I give you 1 more month of reddit and your position will be clear ;)

[–]AceVenturaPD 1 point2 points ago

Evolution is right, if you believe otherwise you're wrong. That's all there is to it.

[–]Boilerjuan 1 point2 points ago

There is a basic misunderstanding of evolution by those who claim there is a debate.

[–]Ludica 1 point2 points ago

Debate of evolution

ಠ_ಠ

[–]Backdoor_Man 1 point2 points ago

There is no debate. There are simply detractors.

Evolution is how the variety of life we see occurred. The origin of life is still mysterious, and probably will be for a long time, but we (science enthusiasts) are completely certain that every living creature shares a common ancestry.

We can trace the path of evolution, and we can watch selection (natural and artificial) in action.

Some science enthusiasts take these facts as granted, but insist God had a hand in it. I see no need for that, but I think it's basically fine as long as they don't argue accepted, well-evidenced theory.

Those people who feel like they have the ability to challenge the entire academic community because they have a magic book? They're fucking retarded and need to be punched in their baby-makers.

[–]RuffTuff 0 points1 point ago

Have an Up vote for your last line... Made me giggle.

[–]trisk 1 point2 points ago

If you can't find "where you stand" on evolution, then you are a fucking idiot, plain and simple.

[–]daidot23 1 point2 points ago

I'm Christian, LOL GIVE ME KARMA I'M STUPID RIGHT!? Leave this place.

[–]Asmodaeus 6 points7 points ago

Quit being a pussy. Deep down you know you're already an atheist.

[–]lloopy 0 points1 point ago

You believe that there is night and day. I believe that the sun eats the moon. Let's debate. Anything you say I get to respond by saying "no", and anything I say that you disagree with, I get to say "You have to respect my beliefs".

TEACH THE CONTROVERSY!

[–]myeverymovment 0 points1 point ago

There's no debate. There's evolution, then there's people who don't understand it.

[–]bkuker 0 points1 point ago

About 50% of Christians, the Catholics, would disagree with that image - they believe in evolution, AFAIK.

[–]gruntyboy 0 points1 point ago

There is no debate about Evolution. It is a demonstrable fact, proven correct countless times.

It is the most demonstrated theory in the history of science.

I urge you to read about Evolution and the amazing amount of scientific proof there is for it.

If there is a debate in your mind, research and inquiry into the subject will end any doubt you have.

Please see the FAQ for many links and info on Evolution.

[–]Youscurvydawg 0 points1 point ago

There is no debate... Saying a debate implies that there are two sides to an argument that can be "debated" over. It would be like debating about gravity, one side saying that you fall to the ground, the other saying that magical pixies push you to the ground. The only reason that the theory of evolution is called a theory is because if an organism can be found that cannot be explained how it evolved then the theory crumbles. That is not going to happen. If I was a scientist I wouldn't be able to express that kind of definitive answer. Luckily, I'm not. Also god is completely man-made. I'm more certain of that every day.

[–]nathan1942 0 points1 point ago

Facts are not determined in a democratic manner. It is either true or it isn't and no amount of faith or belief will change that. Someone may believe the world is flat, that the earth revolves around the sun, or that the earth is only 6,000 years old but their belief does not lend these views any more factuality or credibility.

[–]realfuzzhead 0 points1 point ago

OP, maybe you should stick with the "what actually happened" part.

[–]Aew-L 0 points1 point ago

Not a debate, If you want real answers take a class in evolutionary biology. See it for your self it's amazing, that's all.

[–]n1ght5talker 0 points1 point ago

Scientists say plants use sunlight to get energy. I say that a special type of creature known as a zorba feeds plants fairy dust for energy but the zorba only comes out during the day..... lets debate!

[–]apitimizer 0 points1 point ago

Repost...

[–]SomeGamerKid 0 points1 point ago

First: repost.

Second: That's how i was! keep browsing, you'll see the light.

[–]ikinone 0 points1 point ago

You entertain me.

[–]BacktotheUniverse 0 points1 point ago

Its funny how creationists reject the theory of evolution but have no problem with the theory of plate tectonics or germ theory or atomic theory, etc.

[–]brightman95 0 points1 point ago

Karma Whore.

[–]Gematria13 0 points1 point ago

Why do people feel the need to tell us that they are Christian?

[–]drunkenwaffle 0 points1 point ago

"Hey, look! It's this post again! I'm sick of this shi-. Wait. A christian posted it? Oh well then that makes it better. Take all the karma in the world!" -Everybody who upvoted this.

[–]mage_g4 0 points1 point ago

There isn't a debate, evolution is unequivocally true. Please stop whoring for karma in r/atheism. We've seen this post a million times and it's not even technically accurate.

Just so you know, a debate is two sides using logic and reason to come to a conclusion. This isn't happening with evolution. What is happening is that evolution has been proved, time and again. It has mountains of evidence to support it. It can be seen in our DNA, proven through fossil records and can even be repeatedly tested in a lab. The only 'evidence' people who refuse to accept this truth can come up with is that their 2000 year old, poorly translated book of stories about wizards says that it isn't true.

Plus, in a debate, both sides need to listen to their opponent and then give a reasoned rebuttal. Again, this isn't happening. People who understand evolution, at least to a reasonable level, give a reasoned argument for why evolution is true and show some compelling evidence. Their opponents, almost always a religious person, then goes "LA LA LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! MY BOOK SAYS IT WAS DOWN BY A SKY-WIZARD SO YOU ARE WRONG!"

Now, please go away.

[–]TheGodless1 0 points1 point ago

This I'm a Christian bullshit needs to stop. You're not a Christian, you wish you were a Christian, you lie to yourself and tell yourself you believe that an invisible sky man created us then had a son who he had us kill in order to save us from our sins but not really though. You don't know where you stand in evolution? Lying again. You'd have to be completely ignorant to think that evolution is debatable, and I'm willing to bet you don't see yourself that way. So news for you, atheists still think you're deluded.

Believing in fairy tails and posting to r/atheism is not going to validate any of the nonsense you tell yourself that you believe.

[–]FulgrimTG -1 points0 points ago

Implying that there is any debate around Evolution.

There is only those who accept evolution, and those who are ignorant. Simple as that. Amongst people who actually understand the subject, the "debate" you are referring to has long since ended, and evolution is a fact.

[–]reverend234 -1 points0 points ago

You should be able to say where you stand on the "whole debate of evolution". It just shows a lack of thinking.

[–]reverend234 0 points1 point ago

Haters gonna hate.

[–]Rixxer -2 points-1 points ago

Fun-fact: The painting above "What Christians think happened" depicts God and those people around him as the human brain, suggesting God is just an idea that came from Man. Michelangelo was a slick son of a gun.