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Irony (sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net)
submitted 1 month ago by slmnwise
[–]tothemooninaballoon 237 points238 points239 points 1 month ago
He wasn't a non-believe, he was a deist.
[–]Jdoyle35 7 points8 points9 points 1 month ago
seeing this as the top comment instead of someone pointing out how it isn't ironic is refreshing to me
[–]vambot5 39 points40 points41 points 1 month ago
He was complicated. People call him a deist, but he also edited his own version of the bible. He was more like a Unitarian.
[–]johnbranflake 30 points31 points32 points 1 month ago
Yes, he removed all the miraculous events and left the morality tales consistent with his Deism.
[–]itsasillyplace 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
He wasn't really that complicated, like at all, in matters of religion.
Why was he a non-believer?
Mainstream Christianity in those days as well as in the 1950's and today required accepting Jesus as one's Saviour.
In order to accept Jesus as the Saviour, one must accept his divinity.
Accepting the divinity of Jesus means accepting the belief that he is the Son of God.
Jefferson rejected the divinity of Jesus Christ as demonstrated by the fact that he removed mentions of the divinity of Jesus.
He was in fact a non-believer as he didn't believe Jesus was divine, and therefore the Son of God.
He's even more of a non-believer, considering that the rejection of Jesus' divinity also entails non-belief in the Trinity, which makes Jesus and God, one.
TL;DR The endorsement of God in the 1950's legislation was not a Deist endorsement of God, it was a Christian one i.e. Jesus and God are one, ergo In Jesus We Trust
[–]HalfGingGhost 8 points9 points10 points 1 month ago
Non believer in the Christian sense, but a believer in the religious sense.
[–]General_Hide 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
There are more Gods than just the christian one...Sometimes I find many non-believers tend to forget that.
[–]itsasillyplace -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Except for the fact that the Christian God is also "one with Jesus", and the God on American money isn't any other God but the Christian God.
[–]iratusamuru 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
A Unitarian who believed that the Book of Enoch was literally preserved and passed down by the ancestors of Noah to the modern time..
[–][deleted] 1 month ago
[deleted]
[–]bigbbigga 37 points38 points39 points 1 month ago
Deism and atheism are extremely different, and i don't think you can speak for someone who's been dead almost 200 years.
[–]InsulinDependent -7 points-6 points-5 points 1 month ago
Extremely = the most minor a difference as could be?
Deists believe a supernatural force was responsible for the creation of reality and existence but take no interaction with and do not care about said creation.
Atheists think the creation was non-supernatural.
[–]MegaZambam 9 points10 points11 points 1 month ago
You're forgetting the biggest difference: Atheists don't believe in gods, deists do. Atheism is the idea of the non-existence of gods. How in the world is there a minor difference when the only philosophy of atheism is opposed by deism?
[–]Dudesan -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
Atheists believe that no falsifiable, interventionist, or personal deities exist.
Deists believe that no falsifiable, interventionist, or personal deities exist.
The only difference is that Deists feel uncomfortable with the idea of having no God, so they say that one exists outside of reality but never actually does anything, which according to Newton's Flaming Laser Sword is really no claim at all.
[–]flaviusb 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
And yet Deists believe in at least one God, and Atheists believe in at most zero. If that does not make them different things, then I am not sure what does.
The only way around that is to say that either Atheists only have to believe that there are no provable, interventionist, or personal Gods, or that while Deists call what they believe in 'God', it actually does not count as a 'God', and they are simply wrong about what they think they believe.
[–]Nisas 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I've always found this idea that gods are immaterial or exist outside of reality particularly odd. Jefferson spoke out against the idea of an immaterial god.
"To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, God, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no God, no angels, no soul... At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But a heresy it certainly is."
Jefferson thought people who believe in an immaterial god were atheists.
The same notion applies to the idea of a god that's outside of reality. I can't find any definition of "reality" that would allow for such an idea to be cogent. All the definitions go something like "Reality - the state or quality of being real. or The world or the state of things as they actually exist."
Therefore, something that exists outside of reality is therefore not real or non-existent. To say that something exists outside of reality is to say that it both exists and doesn't exists. An obvious contradiction.
[–]Dudesan 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
The same notion applies to the idea of a god that's outside of reality. I can't find any definition of "reality" that would allow for such an idea to be cogent. All the definitions go something like "Reality - the state or quality of being real. or The world or the state of things as they actually exist." Therefore, something that exists outside of reality is therefore not real or non-existent. To say that something exists outside of reality is to say that it both exists and doesn't exists. An obvious contradiction.
Yes, that's kinda my point.
[–]InsulinDependent -3 points-2 points-1 points 1 month ago
Theologically speaking they have very little difference, only the origin of time is different or effected in any manner. Obviously there IS a difference but on the scale of religious belief systems it is very minor.
[–]ragault 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
Yes, I agree. It would have been difficult to even try to believe that there wasn't a God to create the Universe. What other options were there?
[–]Locke92 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
This is why I try to understand older people who are still believers; think how far humanity's understanding of the universe has come in the last 60 years; you are talking about pre-moon landings, pre-double helix, pre-acceptance of plate tectonics. For someone 50-60 years old the world they were taught about in school when they were young is vastly different than what someone in their teens or twenties learned.
It seems to me that I heard Hitchens (IIRC) put it basically this way: before evolution even the smartest minds had to come to terms with the complexity of nature, that is to say, the complexity of their own existence; this left even the greatest minds in awe (Newton is a good example) and there was no other theory except the god hypothesis. Once Darwin's theory came around along with increasingly accurate measurements of the age of the earth the intellectuals could reasonably begin to doubt and turn towards atheism. As that knowledge spread down to the people, slowly but surely, the public began to have its doubters too. So that is why I don't think that there is a big jump between atheism and deism, because until basically last year we haven't had a scientific framework that can explain the beginnings of the universe without any outside agency. Now that the areas of ignorance for gods to hide in are disappearing only those who are truly set in their ways or are somehow scared of a world without a deity really have any ground to stand on vis-a-vis the existence of a god.
Tl;dr : I cut people a lot of slack for believing, both historically before major scientific advancements and more recently for much the same reason. I do still love a good debate though.
[–]ragault 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
A subject I have contemplated studying in school: The rise of modern science and how it has affected religion.
[–]eirikeiriksson 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
a scientific framework that can explain the beginnings of the universe without any outside agency
Sorry, I must have missed the memo. Are you talking about Krauss?
[–]Locke92 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Yup, Krauss may or may not be exactly correct (I am far from a theoretical physicist) but he has provided a plausible explanation for the beginning of the universe using only natural phenomena, which I think is a pretty important milestone.
[–]InsulinDependent 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Well the obvious answer is no difference is made with or without a god, as he would have to come to exist also at some point. Claiming that he exists without the need for creating is equally valid as saying that the big bag happened because it happened, the difference is that something may have actually caused matter and energy to come into being and it is yet unknown.
I just want to say that if I never do anything else in the world but find out the secret to the origin of the universe, I will have lived a happy life.
[–]InsulinDependent 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
Don't set your expectations too low, have some self respect man.
[–]JestreJoeD 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
I'm pretty sure he would be a Deist, just in the 21st century. If you were to compare him to anything in this century you should compare him to an agnostic. He believed there was a god, but it didn't interfere with human affairs. It acted more as the springboard for life in his opinion (if i remember correctly)
[–]VaughanThrilliams 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
I don't have a view on your logic or the debate in general but "less Americans in the 1700's went to church less often" so more Americans went to church more often? what? Did I just get up to early or is this confusing
[–]call_me_young_buck 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago
A 17ty century American Deist would definitely be a 21st century Atheist.
I mean, yeah. Obviously.
/s
[–]KittyL0ver 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Even more interesting is the fact that less Americans in the 1700's went to church less often....
Church attendance varied considerably during the 18th century in America. According to the Library of Congress, "Between 1700 and 1740, an estimated 75 to 80 percent of the population attended churches, which were being built at a headlong pace." However, church attendance had fallen to between 10 - 30% by 1780. A 2006 Gallop survey indicates that 42% of Americans attend church or synagogue regularly.
[–]MegaZambam 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
First of all 17th century is the 1600s. Secondly, I don't think there is any precedent for you to be making the assumption that a deist in EIGHTEENTH century is the same as an atheist in the 21st. Lastly, numbers wise it is LOGICAL that more Americans go to church now than then. You know why? CAUSE THERE ARE MORE AMERICANS NOW THAN THEN. Seriously, unless you have stats saying a smaller percentage went to church then, which I doubt, this isn't even an argument.
[–]the_dawdler 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Without having the time to look up actual numbers (if they exist); this is before the "Second Great Awakening" revivalist period, and I suspect it is quite possible that Americans went less to church even when controlling for population growth.
[–]executex 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
No one admitted being an atheist during the 1700s. Doing so would mean being an outcast. Thomas Jefferson was well-connected, because he figured out that claiming himself as an atheist would cause problems, calling himself a deist, doesn't.
the deist belief versus the atheist belief are almost exactly similar except for the definition. The deist believes in a God that doesn't interfere with the world. The atheist believes in no God, and that nothing interferes with the world. Essentially they live an identical life.
The other issue is, arguments in philosophy were not as developed either, so it would be difficult to ascertain the information needed to assume the universe wasn't created by a creator. Much of that came after Darwin explained that the illusion of a creator can occur.
I don't know of any deist prayer rituals either, so I wouldn't consider a deist as someone who is religious.
[–]John_Elway 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Two people agree with your logic. Amazing.
[–]mdmcgee -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
Sorry, but Thomas Paine had him beat in that arena as he was unashameley atheist.
[–]BRayne7 8 points9 points10 points 1 month ago
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life." - Thomas Paine, Age of Reason, Part 1
He was definitely a Deist as well. There is speculation that he moved towards atheism in his later years though.
[–]ThatDanmGuy -21 points-20 points-19 points 1 month ago
"God" is a name rather than a category. If it were to reflect a generic or deistic god, it would read "In a god we trust." Jefferson was not a believer in Christianity, so the point holds.
[–]primevalEcho 21 points22 points23 points 1 month ago
so the point holds
No it doesn't. The image said he was a non-believer. He believed in a god, therefore he was a believer. I seriously can't believe so many fucktards here are trying to spin a basic fact. It's like trying to read creationist nonsense where they try to obfuscate everything to claim victory.
He believed in a god, but also believed in separation of church and state. How goddamn hard is that to comprehend?
[–]tothemooninaballoon 13 points14 points15 points 1 month ago
The SCOTUS defines "In god we trust" as any god or maker.
[–]thepdxbikerboy 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago*
And Scalia thinks a cross is a trans-religious memorial symbol.
"JUSTICE SCALIA: I don't think you can leap from that to the conclusion that the only war dead that that cross honors are the Christian war dead. I think that's an outrageous conclusion."
http://buddhism.about.com/b/2009/10/10/justice-scalia-and-generic-religion.htm
[–]azripah 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Source? I didn't think it was possible for my opinion of Scalia to be any lower...
[–]thepdxbikerboy 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I provided one link above. Here's another source. Not fond of HuffPo, but this'll do.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/08/scalia-defends-cross-on-p_n_313625.html
[–]fury420 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Crosses in general are quite religious, but in that specific context (war grave markers) I can see his point, as the cross as a wartime grave marker is not something one typically associates as being solely representative of christian graves
[–]chihuahuaphil 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago
No, it most certainly is not. Look at the Jewish war graves. No crosses, and there would be hell to pay if anyone suggested the Star of David be replaced with crosses.
[–]fury420 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago*
Are we talking about symbols carved onto gravestones themselves or the stereotypical wooden cross used to identify battlefield war graves?
I totally agree about gravestones bearing symbols representing the religion of the person buried, but a wooden cross used to signify a makeshift war grave seems slightly different in its symbolism
[–]Locke92 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Why do you think the markers are shaped like crosses? It is all because of the religious symbolism. Other religious traditions don't use the cross.
Ninja Edit: The most basic headstone would be a plank, not a cross.
[–]macgeekgrl 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
I've never seen a cross on a grave and thought, "Oh, that person must've been Jewish." The cross is a solely Christian symbol. It has no sacred meaning in, say, Islam, so concluding that it's a suitable multi-purpose religious symbol is ridiculous.
[–]fury420 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
I was thinking more along the lines of the simple wooden crosses used as grave markers, not the engravings on gravestones or giant stone crosses, which seem to carry much more religious weight.
I'm not trying to suggest the cross is a general multi-purpose religious symbol, but even as someone raised without religion I don't immediately think "Oh, that's a christian grave" whenever I see a makeshift wooden cross for a grave marker the same way I would for a gravestone featuring the cross.
[–]Hafnium 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
They're torture devices. That is the only meaning I can really see them having free of Christianity.
I'm not disputing their origin, just that many people (myself included) don't immediately assume christianity when they see say.... a makeshift wooden cross used as a wartime grave marker the same way one does when you see a cross in pretty much any other context
[–]ThatDanmGuy 10 points11 points12 points 1 month ago
Yet the grammar of the English language disagrees.
[–]Sauroctonos -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
You act like the Supreme Court is infallible. When it comes to matters of religion, they don't always uphold reason, or even the Constitution. See Good News Club v. Milford Central School
[–]tossedsaladandscram 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
That isn't his point. He's just saying in matters dealing with the state, that phrase, legally, refers to any god.
[–]sufrt 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
guys
who cares
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
what about the non believers?
The state can manipulate the language in whichever way it wants. It doesn't mean that it's always right (ex: Corporations are people, or separate but equal is a-okay).
[–]UnicornPuppy 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
In the case of non-believers they probably take the AA route. "A higher power can be anything. Even a tree!" I don't know why they always suggest a tree.
[–]tossedsaladandscram 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
my fraternity had a review by the national board in order to root out "the atheist problem." it started with "you must believe in our lord jesus christ to be a member of this fraternity," and ended (in the face of thousands of dollars in lost dues) with "come on guys, a higher power can be anything. hell, i think Peyton Manning might be a higher power."
[–]sirbruce 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago
I would say that Jefferson believed in the Christian God, but not in Jesus' divinity. In other words, he thought the Christians were worshipping the real thing; they just had some of the details wrong. Much like Jews, I suppose.
The God/Creator referred to in early government documents is usually a generic, non-specific God.
[–]cuntslurper 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
no, the "point" most certainly does not "hold".
jefferson clearly had strong religious and spiritual beliefs, but he kept them to himself.
[–]dongsy-normus 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Technically it is t capitalized in the proper form of a name.
[–]will0wisp 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
But we can't tell if the word "God" on the coin is capitalized or not. Some cursory Google research shows that every word in the phrase has an initial capital when it isn't printed in all-caps, so, still inconclusive. Could refer to any god.
[–]gla3dr 38 points39 points40 points 1 month ago
In addition to everything wrong already pointed out, coins aren't engraved. They are stamped.
[–]rcinsf 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/sculptor_engravers/
Before you can stamp a coin, someone has to engrave the original.
Images: http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/sculptor_engravers/?action=How
[–]THE_CENTURION 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Well yeah, but the coins themselves are still stamped.
[–]Msj2705 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
And a few of them are pressed.
[–]antitheist33 33 points34 points35 points 1 month ago*
This is the central quote inscribed in the Jefferson Memorial:
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
He believed in God, just not the typical Christian version. The 'tyranny' he was referring to in this quote was the clergy in Philadelphia who were campaigning against him in his run for the presidency. Link to letter. I don't think they considered him a Christian.
He re-wrote the Gospels, editing out all references to Jesus being the son of God or performing miracles. Jefferson Bible
If Jefferson would have had a problem with "In God We Trust," it would only be because he was one of the chief proponents for the separation of church and state.
[–]cuntslurper 22 points23 points24 points 1 month ago*
uhhh...thomas jefferson was clearly a religious and spiritual man, as evidenced by the quotation below.
"Say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone." -- Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Adams, 11 January 1817, in Lester Cappon, ed. The Adams-Jefferson Letters, (1959) p. 506
[–]ThatDanmGuy 6 points7 points8 points 1 month ago
But the irony isn't that he was an atheist, but that: 1. His religious views would be classified by nearly all Christians as heretical, and the quote on the coin references God, which is the Christian name for their god. 2. Jefferson did not believe in supernatural intervention, which is exactly what the quote suggests we trust.
[–]bardfaust 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago
It doesn't imply intervention at all, actually. It could just as easily be saying to simply trust that God's plan will work out in the end, not that he's going to come down and save you.
[–]mastermike14 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
He did not believe Jesus actually performed any miracles. He literally tore pages out that talked about Jesus performing miracles. He also was the first to establish a religious freedom statue. He wanted all religions in America to thrive and be successful. The real irony behind the coin is that Thomas Jefferson never would have endorsed the coin.
"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
[–]EvilStellar 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
In Deism there is no plan, though... any god is completely uninvolved.
[–]ThatDanmGuy -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
A Deistic god could or could not have a plan, but a deist would not claim to know what (if any) its plan is, since the primary value of Deism is determining religious truths based solely on reason and observation.
[–]ThatDanmGuy 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Fair enough. Good point.
[–]CannibalShinobi -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
A god that doesn't intervene has no plan.
[–]bardfaust 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
Or it is already in play.
[–]CannibalShinobi 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Unless his plan is to create universe and watch, anything else would be considered intervening. To trust in his plan would be hoping that he intervenes and set things up to help you, even in advance.
[–]bardfaust 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
To trust in his plan has nothing to do with hope that he will intervene.
It means that you believe things are going exactly as they are "supposed to", according to the god's "Ultimate Will". What are you talking about?
[–]CannibalShinobi 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
What am I talking about? What are YOU talking about?
In order for God to have a plan then he would have to intervene to prepare and put that plan into action. In order enact his "ultimate will" he has to actually do things himself, also known as "intervening".
Not if everything started from the very beginning, which is exactly what i'm talking about.
Every action any person or thing or molecule has ever made in the entirety of existence is coming from "his" base point from which "all" began.
Now, why would that god intervene when everything is already in movement?
You mean like, when the Big Bang happened it set off an infinitely long series of events, each affected by that which comes before it?
[–][deleted] 1 month ago*
It would be grossly inaccurate to say that they were all deists. A fair share of them were indeed Christians (though of course not enough to justify the claims Christians like to make about the group).
[–]Cameltoezors -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Most were Deists or non Christian theists if you delve any further than a few quotes.
[–]jesusonadinosaur 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
Actually no. Most were episcopalian. But of the "big" names, most were deists. If we went down the list of every man you could call a founding father you would find mostly christians. If you went down the list of every founding father joe six pack could name you would find mostly deists.
[–]ThatDanmGuy 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
This is totally off topic, but I saw your name so I have to ask: What's the origin/meaning of the Jesus on a raptor pic? I don't know why it's hilarious, but it is.
[–]jesusonadinosaur 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
young earth creationists (evolution denying christians who take genesis as literal truth) posit that man and dinosaur lived simultaneously. Given this absurd belief various parodies have come forth. Among them are the concepts of jesus or sarah palin riding a dinosaur and "raptor jesus" who saves dinosaurs from their sins.
[–]Lanceloted 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I lol'd. Also, I thought of the space pope from Futurama
The "Creationism Museum" features exhibits with early humans alongside dinosaurs wearing yokes and saddles.
[–]deadthoughts 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
and the quote on the coin references God, which is the Christian name for their god.
The whole reason that it is constitutional is because it doesn't explicitly reference the Christian God. Just a definite creator. I do agree that it shouldn't say it at all, but nonetheless it doesn't reference a specific religion's deity.
[–]moralnihilist 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
This isn't about whether or not Jeffersons beliefs were heretical to MIT Christians. The op's submission claims Jefferson was a non-believer and that isn't true.
I can't speak for OP, but when I read the post, I assumed belief in question is Christianity (maybe that's just something I assume because I grew up in a Christian community, so that's the only way I've seen that term used.) At any rate, I do think we're talking specifically about non-belief in Christianity since the quote on the coin references the Christian God. What constitutes heresy is thus relevant, since religious beliefs can be hard to classify, and the consensus of those within a religion is the only way I know to define a religion's essential tenets.
[–]Xataz 19 points20 points21 points 1 month ago
Only in Britain do we put the father of the theory of evolution on the same coin as the head of the church of England
[–]HeroicDanger 13 points14 points15 points 1 month ago
The Church of England advocates evolution
[–]MrRabbit 6 points7 points8 points 1 month ago
So do most Christian religions, like Catholicism for example.
[–]Jeezafobic 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago
It also advocates "royalty" which is pretty much as ridiculous as religion.
[–]johnbranflake -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
Isn't based on evolution? The best ruler is selected and passes his genes to his offspring.
[–]Xataz 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Sorry, just found it kinda funny having science and religion on the same coin.
[–]xHelpless 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
The church of England is literally a made up religion. It was formed from convenience, not from divine intervention.
[–]azripah 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago
It was formed from convenience, not from divine intervention.
Are you implying that any religions weren't formed from convenience?
[–]xHelpless 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
hahaha but of course they are, its just CoE's birth is well documented and known. At least Islam and Catholicism have God telling them to form their religion (or Abraham). CoE is just simply one man deciding he wants to live a certain way and creates a religion about it.
Idiots.
[–]azripah -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Same as Mormons, Scientologists, Jehova's witnesses, and a host of other religions. CoE is hardly unique.
[–]alwaysmispells1word 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Uh.. Mormon's pretty much claim god told them to form a religion too.
It's exacktly why its not a protestant religion...
[–]azripah 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
The mormons can think whatever they want. I'm sure old L. Ron said something similar. Fact is that it was formed so recently, to quote GP, its birth is well documented and known, and I really, really doubt it was formed for anything other than convenience. I mean, come on, who wouldn't form a religion just to have good cause for polygamy?
I'm unsure how a timeline changes teh claim.
You were trying to contrast them to protestants like the church of England, and its very different from a logical standpoint, and a very different tact to show them why the idea is inherently ridiculous.
Not really, I was trying to liken them to the CoE, all religions formed from convenience, and formed recently enough that we know how and why they were really formed.
[–]TSolo315 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
IMO most religions were created as tools to obtain and maintain power.
Yep, convenient tools to obtain and maintain power.
[–]GoSox2525 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
arnt all religions made up...
[–]exegesisClique 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Henry VIII ruled by divine right. If god didn't want him to make a new religion, god wouldn't have made him King of England.
[–]BRayne7 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
The Tudor's never claimed Divine right.
[–]trevpr1 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Why downvote this comment above? It is a very sound point!
[–]godlessatheist 10 points11 points12 points 1 month ago
This subreddit needs more skeptics that actually do their damn research. Jefferson was critical of religion but he was still a deist.
[–]rasputin777 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
More? You mean 'some'. This shit is constantly front-paged by a crew of idiots who fancy themselves the smartest people around while obviously having no concept of critical thinking whatsoever.
[–]godlessatheist 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Agreed, many of these people feel like they are intellectually superior for being an atheist but they then believe every conspiracy theory that they hear on the internet.
[–]reallyocean 13 points14 points15 points 1 month ago
Nickely
ftfy.
[–]Ross1210 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
Thomas Jefferson re-wrote the bible by omitting all the magical acts and miracles and called it "The Moral Teachings of Jesus of Nazareth." Focusing on how the importance of being a good person, Good Guy Jefferson.
[–]gr3nade 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
Dude coins are made out of copper and nickel, not iron. So there is nothing irony about this picture.
[–]philborg 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
not irony; nickely
[–]Kenny_G_ 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
Jefferson clearly believed in a higher power- calling him a "non-believer" is as pointless as up-voting this tired picture.
[–]NICKinNOVA 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
I too thought Jefferson was a non-believer, but he wasn't. That only comes from cherry picked statements.
[–]karmacow 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
wasn't ol' Jefferson a deist?
[–]NeverYourOpinionX 18 points19 points20 points 1 month ago
We also put "liberty" and do a pretty good job taking that away most of the times.
[–]tossedsaladandscram -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
blah blah blah, i hate america blah blah blah
[–]guiriguiri -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
"liberty" seems to be a pretty subjective word these days (or maybe it was always that way). the only times i ever see it used are when someone is making a political statement. like when homophobes say giving gays the right to marry would be a death to liberty, and those in favor of gay marriage say that gay marriage would extend liberty to gay people. seems like everyone's idea of liberty is based on what they believe is right for society, not on freedom.
[–]atheistdeepinthebelt 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
Seems like one of those examples is actually using the word correctly.
[–]I_I_I_I_am_the_owl 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
No. Liberty is independence from restraints, whether they be restraints on good things or restraints on bad things.
[–]PackOfHighly 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
The use of the phrase "Only In America" should earn the same treatment as use of the word weeaboo.
[–]markreid504 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
This is awful and not at all ironic. He was a deist, which is a theist, the exact opposite of a nonbeliever.
[–]mojoxrisen 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
You kids really need to get outside the lefitsts / wana be atheist box and read some real history. Not history rewritten by haters and other wana be athiest.
Jefferson was far from an atheist.
[–]rasputin777 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Allow me to provide several quotes of his. Not just quotes, but quotes written along the interior of his memorial. I see them every time I go there, which is often: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
"Almighty God hath created the mind free...All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens...are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion...No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship or ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion. I know but one code of morality for men whether acting singly or collectively."
For a "non-believer" as you say, he sure did talk about God and a creator a lot. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're merely ignorant and not intentionally deceitful.
[–]backward_z 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago*
Even more insulting is that these men's visages ended up on fiat currency issued by a central bank.
George Washington, $1 bill, 25¢ coin:
"Paper money has had the effect in your state that it will ever have, to ruin commerce, oppress the honest, and open the door to every species of fraud and injustice."
Thomas Jefferson, $2 bill, 5¢ coin:
"The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."
and
"Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies."
"The bold effort the present (central) bank had made to control the government … are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it. I am one of those who do not believe that a national debt is a national blessing, but rather a curse to a republic; inasmuch as it is calculated to raise around the administration a moneyed aristocracy dangerous to the liberties of the country."
Abraham Lincoln, $5 bill, 1¢ coin:
"The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace and conspire against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, and more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces as public enemies all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe."
Andrew Jackson, $20 bill:
"Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me that if I take the deposits from the bank and annul its charter, I shall ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is your sin! Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families, and that would be my sin! You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the Eternal God, I will rout you out... If people only understood the rank injustice of the money and banking system, there would be a revolution by morning."
Benjamin Franklin, $100 bill:
"The refusal of King George to allow the colonies to operate an honest money system, which freed the ordinary man from clutches of the money manipulators was probably the prime cause of the revolution"
Ulysses S. Grant, $50 bill:
"The government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the government and the buying power of consumers. The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of government, but it is the government’s greatest creative opportunity. The financing of all public enterprise, and the conduct of the treasury will become matters of practical administration. Money will cease to be master and will then become servant of humanity."
Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 10¢ coin:
"The real truth of the matter is that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government since the days of Andrew Jackson."
John Fitzgerald Kennedy, 50¢ coin:
"For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations."
You want irony? This is the hydrogen bomb of irony. We believe these men upheld the values that our money system represents, therefore most people simply do. not. question.
To put these men's faces on our currency is flat out the absolute most outrageous posthumous insult they could possibly endure.
[–]Cubetacular 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
The stupidity of Christian-Americans and often non-Christians is that they think "god" refers to the Christian God. One of the main reasons we have "God" in anything in the US goes back to Locke, whom we based out basic tenants of freedom on. Locke said "God Given Rights." Why did he add God? Because, if they are man-given-rights then man can change them or deny them. If they are God-given, then no man can ever challenge, change or deny them without going against God.
[–]CitationX_N7V11C 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Maybe because that man was content to let others believe what they wanted to instead of being a huge jerk about it. http://imgur.com/gallery/Z4ppG
[–]Hans_Wurst 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Isn't it far more ironic that we stamp that next to Sacagawea on the dollar coin?
[–]Icebawks 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
It's not Irony at all, nickels are 75% copper and 25% nickel. Zero iron actually.
[–]mordredp 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
I don't understand why most american people assume that when one's mentioning god, it must be the Christians' idea of God.
[–]richertai 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
BOY THIS IS JUST AS COMPELLING AS THE LAST FIVE HUNDRED TIMES IT WAS POSTED AND IS COMPLETELY FACTUALLY ACCURATE.
[–]slackerdc 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
Ugh Jefferson rejected a lot of what Christianity had to say but he was a theist none the less.
[–]Cameltoezors 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
*Deist
[–]buster_casey 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
Deism is a form of theism.
[–]chris_cobra 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
jefferson is totally giving that sentence "the look" too, like, "soon, you will vanish!"
[–]hacksoncode 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
It would be irony if they intentionally put the message on there to convey something about religious tensions and the reasoning behind religious freedom.
As it is, it's just a repost.
[–]Lunights 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
They might mean the Einsteinian "God", which just means the natural order of the world.
[–]BlueRaspberry 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I don't care so much about "In God We Trust" being on our money because money pretty much is my god.
[–]JollyRoger777 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Susan B. Anthony is on a coin. She was a non-believer. There you go.
[–]ImNotGayDude 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I don't know about his beliefs. But I do believe that he has a rather large package.
[–]sinner_di 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
That is not iro... you know what, fuck it.
[–]garishbourne 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I think it's funnier that we still call it a Nickel. I couldn't figure out how to work an Iron/irony pun in their. Sorry.
[–]kazrael02 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Well, we also had indians on our coins at one point, and we exterminated them in the name of said god....
[–]VanceOWSLA 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
If I didn't read the small caption, I would've said "That's not irony, that's nickely".
[–]luissy_F_baybeh 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
that's why he is mad doggin' the shit out of it.
[–]OnionWillDesecrate 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
MAYBE THAT'S THE JOKE?
[–]Duthos 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
American is a unique language that appears the same as english at first blush, but the meanings are all reversed.
This makes for some interesting diplomacy, and quite a few misunderstandings as to their goals.
[–]Uono 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Keep upvoting posts that are incorrect guys. If the trend continues, the front page will be just like watching Fox News. Full of misinformation!
[–]BelievesInGod 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
that is really ironic...
[–]holyghosttown 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
In protest you /r/atheism people should quit using money with those words on it. Oh wait...you couldn't get any karma. Or electricity, or food, or shelter....
[–]scottmale24 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
That's... that's the stupidest argument I've ever heard.
Not really. It's a point I'm making. Everyone here is 100% atheist...as long as it doesn't fuck with their daily routine.
[–]juggaloholocaust 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Why not christians cant use computers has been made and upvoted 1000 times here .
[–]Zaramoth 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I thought it was more Nickley than Irony, but oh well.
[–]charliebrownjohn 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Or we all down vote this Thomas Jefferson was an atheist posts to an oblivion
[–]notblake987 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I thought this was going to be a metals joke.
[–]TheFarseer 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Sorry if someone else pointed this out already but...
Irony: Only in America do we engrave "liberty" next to the portrait of a slave holder.
[–]Impetus1 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Stone have said he's a Deist actually.
[–]KillerTheMike 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
It’s not if he was an Atheist, Deist or Christian the irony here is that he was a strong supporter of the separation of church and state
[–]azurewitch 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Thank you tothemooninaballoon...and vambot5
I was just about to say how this is an uneducated statement and not very witty at all.
[–]n3rfh3rd3r 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
He believed, just hated organized religion. Nice try though.
[–]petercameronbacon 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
lol. Iron-y.
[–]ilikeyourusername 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Less irony, more nickely.
[–]supahsonicboom 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
It's annoying how everyone is calling this picture out, yet it still has over 1k upvotes.
[–]bellabob 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I went to Monticello last month, and our tour guide (an older lady) said that he was a christian "In the sense that he followed Jesus' teachings".
[–]yep45 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Irony: bashing religious people for being illogical and stupid
...while claiming that a theist/deist is an atheist
[–]SimilarImage 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
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[–]HeroicDanger 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
God, in this context, is the Founding Fathers themselves.
American society is built around appealing to authority on moral issues. For many, that is God or a religious figure. For others, is the Founding Fathers which they seemingly obsess what it is they would do in this situation. They have been lionised and deified, like men 250 years ago have any insight into the moralities today. This is like using the morality of James III whilst fightimg Hitler
[–]Jeezafobic 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I'm glad someone noticed. You get nutcases like Palin speaking about these guys in prayer-like tones. They did a good job, and it has been greatly revised over time. The Teabaggershoots treat these guys like royalty or gods.
[–]DaveLeGato 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
i'm sure a lot of people won't agree with me but, although i'm an atheist for some reason i like phrases like 'in god we trust' because when i hear them the last thing that comes to mind is the god of the christians/catholics, in cases like that the word god evokes thoughts about the human will, the power of nature, the universe etc... it's like a metaphor of the big mysteries and big things instead of some retarded idea about an invisible overlord
[–]sojalemmi 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I feel the same way.
I get it, but I don't understand why so many people shit their pants by sayings like "in god we trust" and "under god". Its like they just like being offended or mad about something. Its not like the saying is "in christianity we trust" or "under religion" or anything like that.
it's called "dogmatism", surprisingly a lot of atheists are very dogmatic
now that's an irony
[–]MrZomgre 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
/headshake
[–]FattyMcButterstick 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I think it's more ironic that Jackson is on the $20.
[–]lexter89 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Why? if I may ask
[–]hearsvoices 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
Jackson hated the national bank. And his actions against it along with the coinage act helped to eventually lead to the Panic of 1837. He apparently felt that state bank notes were of questionable value.
Read your comment, then your explanation below, and I was pleased. upvote
[–]WhereAmINow 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
But... But.. I don't know but that doesn't look engraved. Engraving is cutting grooves into something right? I'm not American so I don't recognize the coin, so correct me if i'm wrong.
[–]PancakeFashion 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
You're right. American coins are stamped. It would be ridiculous to engrave every single coin in circulation.
The cost of the cheaper coins would be higher than their actual worth, thereby you would be creating your own inflation, Yay for economics :P
[–]neilmcduck 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Interesting related read: http://www.snopes.com/business/money/pennycost.asp
Interesting, It is true they are circulating which after a while pays of the "debt' they caused. Where I'm from (the Netherlands) we got rid of the 1 and 2 eurocents for the reason I mentioned in my last post.
But now I live in spain for 2 months and they still have the 1 and 2 cents in circulation, which is extremely annoying for your wallet.
[–]jimjamAK 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Already true for pennies. We're a stupid people sometimes.
[–]desenagrator 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
So many butthurt people in here. So many.
[–]SgtFrick -2 points-1 points0 points 1 month ago
Only in America do we engrave "In God We Truest" next to the profile of a non believer.
FTFY
[–]truthbringerly -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Jefferson Bible! I follow it closely! I'm doing at this too much! Fuck you for not wanting to hear my opinions. Good for you you athiest fucks for not listening. I have to listen to your shit questions all day long but i try to post at 10 mins intervals and fuck me right!!! IRONY! 47 seconds remain.
[–]ExcessHuman -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
The point is that while diest, the one thing Jefferson woud never say is to trust in a God, but rather to trust in the failings of men. Why he helped build such a badass government, sorry they couldn't keep it up in 'merca.
[–]entropy2057 -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Everyone needs to stop getting so hung up on the beliefs of historical figures. Quote mining will always make "proving" one position or another tedious at best. Even if you can convince someone that XYZ person was an athiest it's still not a very convincing argument to change their mind (not to mention it's essentially an appeal to authority). Long story short, it's usually a waste of time to discuss.
[–]grospoliner -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Please, spare us the fucking nationalism.
[–]ImNotGaryOldman -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
[–]Trifur -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Only in america do we take an atheist and make him stare at In God We Trust forever. Lesson? Don't fuck with America.
[–]Whompratt -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
And to think, I was always under the impression Americans didn't get irony... That's quite ironic.
[–]Owlsrule12 -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Stuff like this make me proud to be an American atheist, ahead of the curve.
[–]ArcaneMissiles -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
More like nicklery hehhehheh
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
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