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[–]feor1300 830 points831 points ago

I've seen that, but it always seemed that holding this up as "See see! Atheist!" But I've always felt that was just trying to bend it to your own beliefs without evidence. it could just as easily represent that Michelangelo felt god was responsible for Man's ability to think and reason. Or even that he felt God could communicate with man directly through his brain.

While it's an interesting theory, all it really proves is that Mikey wasn't in perfect lock-step with the Vatican about certain things and put stuff in his art to show that.

[–]learning_photography 110 points111 points ago

It is highly likely he thought God was responsible for or equivalent to logic, thought, and reason. Seeing as the Renaissance was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy and that Christianity as a whole is similar to stoicism in regards to divine rights, the use of a brain would be quite symbolic of Christianity.

EDIT: Added "or equivalent to"

[–]thattreesguy 71 points72 points ago

its been a while since i visited the vatican, but i remember being told about his disdain for the church while touring there. I believe the opening to hell sits behind the popes chair or something like that

the cool thing about art is that its up to your interpretation. Some could see this as god communicating through your brain or god giving man his intelligence/reasonins, others could see it as god is really a product of our own minds.

[–]NULLACCOUNT 101 points102 points ago

Even if he had disdain for the church that doesn't mean he was an atheist.

[–]one_eyed_jack 48 points49 points ago

He was no atheist. He was a devoutly religious man who clashed with the church on a number of issues. He argued that man could communicate directly with god, rather than through the pope - which may be the hidden message behind this panel.

[–]StripRip 2 points3 points ago

Exactly, he could've just been conflicted with organized religion. Just because you have problems with the church doesn't mean your full on athiest.

[–]dotted_indian 1 point2 points ago

he was just pissed that the church would not let him do his science projects/experiments. he was super angry that he had to do it in secrecy.

[–]Chiparoo 13 points14 points ago

Also the fact that Michelangelo considered himself a sculptor first, and in fact didn't enjoy painting, and the church was pretty much forcing him to spend years of his life doing something he didn't like.

[–]MeesterComputer 1 point2 points ago

Are you confusing Michelangelo and Galileo?

[–]dotted_indian 7 points8 points ago

Nope. I confused him with Da Vinci. Don't I feel stupid. Nice catch.

[–]movie_man 2 points3 points ago

"Oh another codex page!"

[–]santa4nt 2 points3 points ago

"How exciting!"

[–]Teiresias666 11 points12 points ago

He also painted a top bishop's face directly onto one of his big demons, that caused a bit of scandal. Yeah, definitely a lot of disdain for the church, but I'm not at all convinced he was atheist.

[–]mstrgrieves 5 points6 points ago

Or maybe disdain for that particular bishop

[–]postmodgirl 4 points5 points ago

He also put in a self portrait of himself skinned and going to hell

http://www.oberlin.edu/images/Art200-08/200-345.JPG

The bishop was someone he didn't like personally, from what I remember from art history class

[–]aflamp 2 points3 points ago

The person he painted like that was Biagio da Cesena, the Master of Ceremonies. Apparently, Biagio complained to the pope about it, and the pope basically laughed at him and told him to buzz off. So if it was a scandal, it was a very limited one.

[–]Teiresias666 1 point2 points ago

Thanks for the update! I just heard about it briefly during my tour of Europe, it has been a while and the memories are fuzzy.

[–]Scrampbelled 10 points11 points ago

The gates of Hell behind the altar are most likely there as a constant reminder to worshipers of what the Pope and the church are protecting them from. That's hardly a dig and was probably planned by the clergy.

"Tu es Petrus et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt adversus eam." -- You are Peter and upon this rock I build my church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it, yadda, yadda, yadda.

[–]Sabotage101 24 points25 points ago

An art historian informed me that it's a big misconception among the freshmen she has to deal with that every person's opinion about the meaning of art is equally valid. Most art has a specific meaning intended by the artist, and interpreting it some other way is just interpreting it incorrectly.

[–]thegoatgod_pan 9 points10 points ago

As an art historian I would totally disagree--it is not about the specific meaning intended by the artist (otherwise artists would never talk to art historians--we can still surprise them with our interpretations, so they keep letting us look at their stuff). That is not to say there are not utterly wrong interpretations. When it comes right down to it, the artist's claims of understanding their own work should be taken with a grain of salt--e.g. when Picasso and Braque were inventing cubism, the first commonly accepted work of cubism proper was the Demoiselles D'Avignon. Which Picasso thought a hideous mistake, and turned face-to-the-wall in his studio. It took a few years for Picasso to "get" the importance of his own work and turn it around. No one has the "true" truth on art, but some people can be plain wrong.

[–]timeless1991 2 points3 points ago

There is a huge debate concerning this, not just in the art world but in the literary world. Ray Bradbury was noted for changing the "meaning" of his books with time. While not every interpretation is correct, there is not a consensus concerning whether or not an author has word of God privileges over their work. The value in art comes from the meaning someone takes from the piece. If this statement is true, then the interpretation of the artist, while relevant, is not the only valid interpretation.

[–]CptCoatrack 12 points13 points ago

No offense but that sounds like stuffy art snob BS... I've heard numerous artists who had their own intentions but want other people to interpret the art as they will. It seems a little silly that interpreting art in some other way is considered wrong when most art isn't even clear about it's own meaning.

[–]9garden 2 points3 points ago

I have a friend who once said "good art is clearly one thing and something else, and mediocre art is clearly something and nothing else". Of course art couldn't be more subjective, but that remark makes sense to me. If an artist has an intention that he is trying to communicate to an audience, that voice ought to be clear, regardless of whether it is open to interpretation. If an artist is unclear about their intentions, I personally wonder what I am supposed to make of it or why I should care.

[–]Neurotikitty 3 points4 points ago

Precisely. Especially when it comes to books. The author may mean one thing, but if I interpret it differently, in a way that is deep and meaningful to me, is my own enjoyment invalid?

I think we're all free to see anything we want in the world of art, even if we're "wrong" according to the artist. So what? If he wanted us to think a specific way, he could have written in big black letters "GOD ISN'T REAL, IT'S JUST YOUR BRAIN." Then it wouldn't be very beautiful or subtle would it? It would be vulgarly shoving a message down your throat. Nobody wants that.

[–]lastacct 5 points6 points ago

But we're discussing the artist's intention for the work, not the meaning of the work.

[–]thattreesguy 1 point2 points ago

its not a misconception, its basic logic

if something means something to me, or if i see a metaphor that works, you cant just tell me its not the artists original intent and its wrong. Regardless of what the original intent is, my meaning is my meaning.

If the artist intends to say that god is the source of mans intellect, but i see it as the brain is the creator of god, how is my interpretation incorrect? both of them work with the visual elements of the image and i would say they are both equally correct - art is inherently ambiguous.

[–]Joesiscool 21 points22 points ago

This is what I don't get; Disregard everything considered a sign by churches, bibles, and religions because there is no logical proof (among other reasons)... Okay I get that, that makes sense. "You can totally draw a brain on that! There's no way that could be an accident. He totally was trying to make that into a brain to show blah blah blah blah..." (loosely quoted of course). Don't try to make something out of (in all likelihood) nothing. I felt like I was reading about some perfect sign from God from a "super relig-er" on Facebook.

[–]Bobby_Marks 11 points12 points ago

Just this morning, there was a brain burnt into my toast.

[–]pouncer11 1 point2 points ago

I can believe it is a brain. I have little doubt in that honestly. Assuming he was an Atheist is a bit dumb though.

[–]Mimehunter 15 points16 points ago

I think the Mouth of Hell behind the altar is pretty good evidence of his views of the church (though not necessarily God)

[–]spankthatweasel 8 points9 points ago

Hey for some reason I couldn't find a picture of what you are talking about. Even when I googled it, it would endear you to me should you provide a link.

[–]Lurker-Pro 2 points3 points ago

[–]gimmethatfish 1 point2 points ago

Or maybe just his view of the papacy as a highly corruptible position. What with the need to remind the pope that hell exists and is waiting for him.

[–]monkeedude1212 2 points3 points ago

all it really proves is that Mikey wasn't in perfect lock-step with the Vatican about certain things and put stuff in his art to show that.

Which, anyone who studies history can tell you was obvious. He didn't let anyone in to the chapel while he worked on it, he didn't want anyone to see his work till it was finished. You can imagine how this upset the church, you commission a guy to paint your chapel, takes forever, doesn't let you see how its coming along...

[–]gokism 1 point2 points ago

Sounds like an unlicensed contractor. How did the BBB rate him?

[–]audio-technica 2 points3 points ago

He was hired to paint the ceiling because the catholic church thought it would be cheaper to pay him than it would be to build a more beautiful chapel. considering this fresco combined with the Last Judgment on the back wall are worth more than the chapel itself, are pretty good indicator that it was an A rating with the BBB.

[–]monkeedude1212 3 points4 points ago

Well, he was higher rated than da Vinci. Leonardo liked to take on a commission, get about half way through, then skip town with the money. Thats part of the reason there's only like a dozen finished pieces at most from da Vinci.

[–]_it_was_me 1 point2 points ago

Exactly. They actually point this out when visiting the Sistine Chapel and give a perfectly legitimate explanation, as you just did, for why he painted the brain-like background.

[–]peebsy 1 point2 points ago

Yeah, they do. When I was there they said that the painting is meant to represent god as knowledge and his wish to transfer it to Adam (by touching him). Because they never actually touch though, his knowledge never reaches us. I don't know if they have any legitimate proof for this interpretation but that's what they tell people.

[–]Neurotikitty 1 point2 points ago

Which totally explains the "Don't you dare eat the fruit" issue...

[–]Almost_Ascended 1 point2 points ago

"It's all in your head."

[–]Mysterious_Lesions 0 points1 point ago

I put it in the same league as seeing Jesus in a piece of toast.

[–]Shmo60 31 points32 points ago

The complete disregard for historical facts in this post tittle reminds me of things that fundies do all the time. Michelangelo was never a closeted atheist. He had major bones to pick with the Catholic church, and even more specifically, certain people within the Catholic church. But he never was an atheist. No matter how much you knew about natural law at this point in time, it would have been like finding a unicorn to find a true atheist. The perfect example of this is some 100 years later with Newton. Dude loved science. Also was so religious it would make you cry.

When you try and twist history like this, you do nothing but hurt the cause.

[–]sidurisadvice 185 points186 points ago

closeted atheist Protestant

FTFY

[–]iLikeToUoot 61 points62 points ago

sidurisadvice is right:

"Michelangelo was a devout person, but later in life he developed a belief in Spiritualism, for which he was condemned by Pope Paul IV. The fundamental tenet of Spiritualism is that the path to God can be found not exclusively through the Church, but through direct communication with God." "Perhaps the meaning in the Sistine Chapel is not of God giving intelligence to Adam, but rather that intelligence and observation and the bodily organ that makes them possible lead without the necessity of Church directly to God."

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2010/05/27/michelangelos-secret-message-in-the-sistine-chapel-a-juxtaposition-of-god-and-the-human-brain/

[–]FarFromHome 74 points75 points ago

More like "cherubellum", amirite?

[–]yokristian 14 points15 points ago

piggyback ride.

3d Sistine Chapel

[–]LabLover_inCA 1 point2 points ago

Pretty cool -- thanks for sharing. This is a lot nicer to look at than the shitty photos I took while I was there. (without flash -- don't worry...)

[–]Elranzer[!] 1 point2 points ago

Cherubum are not baby angels. The correct term is "putti."

Cherubum are the second-highest order of angels in the hierarchy, and looks like griffins of sorts. Lucifer was one of these.

Not sure why people like to call baby angels "cherubs" (which is wrong on multiple accounts).

[–]themagicpickle 1 point2 points ago

This is why.

It's the same reason that people think the "ba-dum-tiss" sound is called a rimshot, when that sound is actually called a sting.

[–]DoctorSubmarine 115 points116 points ago

Yes, no non-atheist would have any interest in the human brain! Science is exclusive to atheism!

[–]gillesvdo 1 point2 points ago

Well, to be fair, at the time the sort of dissection needed to get good visual reference material of a human brain would've been seen as a mortal sin in the eyes of the church (necessitating clandestine grave-robbery). The fact that Michelangelo was able to draw such an anatomically accurate diagram is good evidence that he engaged in acts expressly forbidden by the church.

It might be a stretch to out Michelangelo as an atheist, but it does show he didn't much care for the church's dogma. It's also very likely he was a homosexual.

So not exactly a model christian then.

[–]Baby_Aspirin 20 points21 points ago

What you (or whoever) labeled as the spinal cord would be more accurately identified as the brain stem.

[–]alexminus 238 points239 points ago

This feels a bit 'tin foil hat'. Does anyone have a better source discussing this?

[–]TheSecretMe 135 points136 points ago

Heh, the entire ceiling of the sistine chapel is one big "fuck you" to the holy roman church. The hidden brain is just one of the most impressive parts of it.

Here's some fun facts about this ceiling.

  • Michelangelo hated the job. He might have been a talented painter but he didn't care much for painting. The pope demanding that he plaster a broken ceiling and then paint it galled him.
  • The pope actually asked for something very simple. He wanted Michelangelo to fix the ceiling like a common laborer and then paint a scene with Jezus on it. Mikey bitched and complained until the pope gave in and let him have free reign in his design.
  • This is where it get's really good. Years later the finished work is unveiled and what is actually in the ceiling? A massive scene full of Jewish heroes and major characters from the Jewish bible. There wasn't a single christian saint or noteworthy character in the entire thing. Any space not filled with Jewish biblical heroes was filled with naked boys and pagan sybils.
  • Not only only did he fill his commission by the pope full of Jews while leaving the Christians out, there's also a lot of symbolism in the painting extremely critical of the shameful treatment jews received.
  • One of the most famous examples of this is Aminadab. He is depicted behind the throne of the pope wearing a yellow badge of shame. He is looking directly at the viewer, almost unheard of in Mike's work and usually only reserved for very important characters. Finally, Aminadab is subtly making the gesture of the devil's horns directly at the spot where the pope would have sat.
  • There's a lot more rude gestures and borderline blasphemous acts hidden in the painting

Before you say "tin foil hat" realize that Michelangelo was one of the greatest scholars in history. He had extensive knowledge of both Judaism and Christianity. Something which most Christian clergy had not, which made it easy for him to paint unnoticed insulting metaphors.

In addition he also illegally studied human anatomy and was one of the few people in his time who actually knew what a human brain looks like. In the end he was a genius and a master in many fields who frequently employed extensive symbolism and hidden meaning in his work. It is fairly safe to assume that there are no "happy accidents" in something that took him years to craft and deals with subject matter he had studied extensively.

If people had understood the ceiling during Michelangelo's lifetime, he'd have probably been executed for it.

[–]WrecktheBeast -1 points0 points ago

He may or may not have been an atheist. The one thing we know for certain is that he didn't actually want to do the painting. He was pissed and the art reflected that. I mean, you couldn't tell the pope no. That was pretty much a prison sentence. He was coerced into doing a job that he didn't want to do.

[–]TheSecretMe 17 points18 points ago

I didn't make any claims of atheism. And we know a lot more than that for certain. It's pretty hard to ignore a painting full of jewish biblical heroes when the pope asked for a picture of Jezus.

And before you say "we don't know that they're Jewish heroes". Yeah we do, he was nice enough to paint a scroll along the bottom naming every single one of them.

[–]eigenstates 1 point2 points ago

He was most definitely not an anti-theist. He was against how the Church of the time had abandon the message for power and money. Loads of people at the time felt the same. THey still had faith but not in the message of the Church. My guess is that, being a scholar as pointed out above, he subscribed to an Agustinian view of religion.

[–]MayTheFusBeWithYou 3 points4 points ago

If art history taught me anything, it it that analysing most artwork ends up sounding a bit tin foil hat tbh. (Not that this necessarily has any bearing on whether this is true or not)

[–]anon_anon_dododadodo 5 points6 points ago

I found this: http://www.wellcorps.com/files/TheCreation.pdf but I haven't found anything that substantiates the theory.

[–]ninjacows 83 points84 points ago

michelangelo was a master. he did not, or rather it is incredibly unlikely, that he accidentally replicated the shape of the human brain without realizing. his knowledge of the human body, as a master painter, had to be incredibly detailed so that he could paint human forms with more knowledge and intuition of how things should work and thus how they should be painted. artists have forever been putting little hidden tidbits in their works, and he did this during a time where he could have been persecuted for disbelieving in god which is probably why there is no documented evidence of him coming forward and explaining it. people forget that art, good art, is not just about creating a striking image, but about creating a dialogue within that image. history, events, opinions, conversations, secrets. art captures and documents it all, even if it may at first seem otherwise.

[–]Negranon 13 points14 points ago

Why does him putting God in a brain (assuming that's what this was meant to be) necessarily mean he didn't believe in him? Is it that far fetched that he could have meant something along the lines of the need to spiritually connect the mind to God or something?

(inb4 downvotes for capitalizing 'God', to which I say "You capitalize proper nouns, motherfucker.")

[–]ak416 169 points170 points ago

This is not a source, this is just your opinion on the topic.

[–]RepostThatShit 32 points33 points ago

The people who wrote an actual paper on the topic claim that Michaelangelo started dissecting cadavers at 17 years old and was therefore perfectly familiar with the exact form of the brain. Their source for this is Vasari G, Bondanella JC, Bondanella PE. The Lives of the Artists which I can't get my hands on.

[–]jeanpaulfartre 78 points79 points ago

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE SOURCE

[–]abenton 17 points18 points ago

ninjacows is the foremost brain-on-ceiling-artist expert of our time. Read a book sometime, geez.

[–]MrOhraesisstrakur 11 points12 points ago

He IS the source

[–]thattreesguy 11 points12 points ago

i mean, what is a source, really, man?

[–]johnny_appletits 1 point2 points ago

nobody knows, really

[–]jimjoebob 1 point2 points ago

then, who is the Oracle, Neo?

[–]TheMediumPanda 8 points9 points ago

Well, considering we don't have Michaelangelo's comments, everything would be an opinion anyway.

[–]iMarmalade 1 point2 points ago

Some opinions are better then others.

[–]RHWiggles 1 point2 points ago

You mean not a credible source I hope.

[–]Makxo 48 points49 points ago

He didn't accidentally replicate the shape of the brain, it was on purpose, as they tell you at the chapel. But to say that an outline of the brain carries atheist overtones is absolutely baseless and silly. There are any number of interpretations.

[–]theCaptain_D 15 points16 points ago

It is not "baseless", but it is, as you suggest, only one interpretation. Having god literally inside a brain in a piece about creation begs the viewer to ask whether god is creating man, or man is creating god. It's too compelling a juxtaposition to NOT wonder if this is what the artist was suggesting.

[–]Makxo 1 point2 points ago

That article says they researchers found the symbols but don't know what Michelangelo was trying to say. It also states that he was always a religious man.

[–]Sarah_Connor 1 point2 points ago

He was a gnostic, not an atheist

[–]fznatla 10 points11 points ago

Also, during this time period, the human physique was one of the most commonly studied and replicated art forms, so much so that artists (who were commonly scientists as well) would dissect deceased humans to study their inside chemistry as well, in order to learn more about their artwork. So, it is not impossible for Michelangelo to be alluding to this.

[–]gamerholic 1 point2 points ago

so much so that artists (who were commonly scientists as well) would dissect deceased humans

Thank you, this I learn from my humanities class in college, right on! So it's extremely plausible it was done on purpose.

[–]chevychaise 8 points9 points ago

This is really such tiresome bullshit. The "diagram" is so selective and shitty to begin with, what we're really asking is whether it's more likely he hid a picture of a brain (which I might add, is not in any way atheistic) or that your brain sees what it wants to.

Let's play this out.

Pope: Hey, it looks like a brain the way god is sitting up there with that fabric and the angels and shit.

Michelangelo: Yep, cuz god made our minds to be superior to other animals and whatnot, I threw that in.

[–]DutchessPDX 5 points6 points ago

You assume that in 1500s that the pope or anyone outside of medicine even knew what the human brain looked like. We know Michelangelo had extensive understanding of human anatomy and attended autopsies and dissected corpses (illegally) I doubt that a member of the clergy would have any frame of reference to what the brain or even the human heart looked like during that period.

[–]Shredder13 1 point2 points ago

Michelangelo

master painter

Nope! Sculptor, master-level. Painter, everyone-looks-like-a-man-level.

[–]Fhom 9 points10 points ago

So he may be one of the earliest and most elaborate trolls of history !

[–]douglas_ 36 points37 points ago

man, the definition of troll sure has deteriorated.
troll is the new hipster, practically everything qualifies

[–]carneval 3 points4 points ago

Y'know, getting paid to undermine the church by hiding a brain in your painting on the ceiling of the SISTINE CHAPEL - yeah, I think that should count.

[–]douglas_ 24 points25 points ago

trolling is intentionally trying to get a rise out of someone, which is probably the last thing he wanted from this

[–]WMDistraction 1 point2 points ago

He had fairly specific requests for his commissions in the Sistine Chapel--and if it hadn't been over a year since I learned all of this, I could be more helpful--but Michelangelo was kinda all, "Nah, I'll do it my way." Pope was all, "Dude, at least consider what I want. I paid you!" But he was Michelangelo, so no one said anything.

[–]swuboo 1 point2 points ago

his knowledge of the human body, as a master painter, had to be incredibly detailed so that he could paint human forms with more knowledge and intuition of how things should work and thus how they should be painted.

His knowledge of the outside. Nothing about painting or sculpting requires a knowledge about the shape of the brain, or the kidney, or the intestines—unless your specialty is still lives of internal organs.

Nor is there anything particularly improbable about this happening to match up. Why exactly is it unlikely that this could be chance?

Hell, it doesn't even look much like a brain.

[–]stev0205 2 points3 points ago

The best I can do is prove he had access to cadavers and surely knew exactly what the human brain looked like first hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelangelo#Early_adulthood

"In the following months he carved a wooden crucifix (1493), as a gift to the prior of the Florentine church of Santo Spirito, which had permitted him some studies of anatomy on the corpses of the church's hospital."

[–]dopplegango 1 point2 points ago

I have a neuroscience book I used for masters-level course that uses this image on the cover (Rosenzweig, Breedlove, & Watson, Biological Psychology 4th Ed). Scroll down in the link for a blurb about the cover that basically says that we'll never really know what he intended when he painted it, but that (given his knowledge of the human body) it probably was meant as a jab at religion. In later editions of this text, they replaced this cover with images of neuronal projections.

[–]JustDandy 1 point2 points ago

Don't worry, reddit has discussed this before. There is no evidence to back up the claim that Michelangelo intentionally hid the portrayal of a human brain within this painting.

[–]GringoAngMoFarangBo 1 point2 points ago

There is circumstantial evidence - for instance he had dissected bodies, and the similarities are remarkable. Not definitive by any means, but it is an interesting theory.

[–]RosenpenisMD 8 points9 points ago

I've read that some people think it's not supposed to be a brain, but a womb. The green scarf thing would be the umbilical cord...

[–]Jim777PS3 7 points8 points ago

The idea of the Renaissance painters being atheists is a nice one, hell Dan Brown has sold some novels based on the idea, but really i do not think it was the case. There has never been any evidence to suggest it, plenty to show they where deeply religious, and atheists of all people should be ready to accept things like these as the coincidences they are.

Source

[–]kid_epicurus 66 points67 points ago

Christians: See Jesus in toast

Atheists: See brain in painting

[–]Cptnwalrus 6 points7 points ago

Really, we're more alike than we like to think. It's pretty sad.

[–]ull90 4 points5 points ago

Still skeptical about this.

[–]rizziam 40 points41 points ago

I remember my first time using MS Paint

[–]Zetavu 4 points5 points ago

Actually I'm guessing that if this were the case the message he was sending was that God exists in the brain, not that God is an imagination of the brain, but that our soul or intelligence, our existence and perception, our very awareness that we are alive and what separates us from other creatures is what God is, and that the brain is the vessel that this soul that is God rests or connects to us through is, rather than common church teaching that it is located somewhere behind the spleen.

At least that is how I imagine a conversation with Michelangelo would go in a bar, except in Italian

[–]Amputatoes 4 points5 points ago

Don't know to what extent this image and the OP's one is confirmation bias and coincidence but here's more hidden brain in Michelangelo's work and while we're on the topic of Michelangelo hating the church here's more from the Sistine Chapel; a cherubim flipping off the pope.

[–]scarecrowslayer 3 points4 points ago

The hand of god exists outside of the human brain though!

All hail Diego Maradona?

[–]Merendino 2 points3 points ago

Objection! Speculation, your honor!

[–]Sarcatheist 2 points3 points ago

Michelangelo painted a brain.

Checkmate, Christians.

[–]Mewarf 4 points5 points ago

how is this on the first page? its about 6 years old

[–]I_DRINK_WHOLE_MILK 2 points3 points ago

more like 500!

[–]glycosylated 4 points5 points ago

It's a stretch

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points ago

So ballsy that he dared draw god's ass :)

[–]obavijest 12 points13 points ago

This has nothing to do with athiesm. Just because he was fascinated with anatomy doesn't mean he was an athiest.

[–]Kosher_Bacon 2 points3 points ago

Face on toast?

God in brain.

[–]Bogsy 2 points3 points ago

Lol wut? Michelangelo an atheist? That's ludicrous! About as ludicrous as calling Galileo or Darwin an atheist. Almost every single scientific discovery we've inherited was given to us by men who whole-heartedly believed in God.

[–]ROOTderp 2 points3 points ago

SO BRAVE

[–]timeless1991 2 points3 points ago

Michelangelo was not a closet atheist. His homosexual tendencies combined with his faith actually did terrible things to his psyche.

[–]adso_of_melk 2 points3 points ago

A few points (I just joined to post this comment, and it's a doozy, so bear with me):

  1. It's a common (and irritating) misconception that human dissection was illegal throughout the Middle Ages and Renaissance. From the 13th century onward dissections were regularly and LEGALLY carried out by physicians (well, directed by physicians, but performed by barber-surgeons). There were no explicit Church proscriptions on the practice. Granted, dissections were swift and smelly, and rarely gave onlookers the chance to really pry into human anatomy, but public dissections were nevertheless openly conducted. In fact, in 1315, the Italian anatomist Mondino de Liuzzi performed his first public dissection with permission from the Vatican.

  2. Michelangelo had indeed dissected corpses (with Church permission) earlier in his career, although according to his 16th-century biographer Ascanio Condivi it made him sick to his stomach and he eventually gave it up for this reason. But if we're going to talk about Renaissance artist-anatomists the true distinction belongs to Leonardo da Vinci. Unlike Michelangelo, who really was only concerned with representing anatomically accurate forms in his art, Leonardo pursued anatomy with an engineer's eye for function. His voluminous notes and sketches, which he planned to turn into a magnificent treatise, include some extraordinary insights and innovative design schemes, some of which have only been recently applied to anatomical illustration. So tl;dr: Leonardo da Vinci was light-years ahead of his contemporaries when it came to anatomy, and certainly more expert than Michelangelo. Still, Leonardo had some inherited misconceptions...

  3. ...one of which concerned the structure of the brain. Since Galen, physicians had regarded the brain as the seat of human intellect and the soul itself. Nemesius of Emesa, a 4th-century bishop, postulated that three cavities or "cells" in the brain (corresponding to the actual ventricles) controlled sensory perception and imagination, intellect, and memory by regulating the "animal spirit" (actually cerebrospinal fluid). Leonardo subscribed to this theory of cerebral cells, as his studies of the nervous system indicate. Example: http://www.unige.ch/cyberdocuments/theses2003/RivaraC-B/images/fig.1.jpg

The drawing on the left reflects an earlier stage in Leonardo's investigation - the cells are simplified and schematic. The right one was probably made after studying the ventricles of a large mammal (perhaps an ox) and then superimposing them on a human brain. The lateral ventricles are labelled imprensiva, so they govern sensory perception; the third ventricle is labelled sensus communis, so it governs imagination (the "special" sense); and the fourth is labelled memoria (memory - duh). It's a twist on the Nemesian theory that reflects Leonardo's strong belief that the soul resides in the sensus communis in the center of the brain. So tl;dr: neurological theory was quite developed by Michelangelo's day, if a bit off the mark. Also, Michelangelo would have been familiar with the ventricle/cell theory - it was cutting edge at the time.

Now, regarding the Creation of Adam.... I was a bit skeptical at first (still am), but I'm intrigued by the correspondence between the position of God and the position of the ventricles in Leonardo's drawing. God's arms roughly match the lateral ventricles, associated with touch. His chest maps onto the sensus communis, the seat of the soul. His legs and feet roughly mirror the fourth ventricle, devoted to memory - and our feet leave traces of where we have been before. Perhaps we should not be focusing on the anatomical details supposedly surrounding God, but on the anatomical significance of God himself in this scheme.

So here's what I think: if Michelangelo did this intentionally, which is still debatable, it was to indicate the divine source of the human intellect, residing in the ventricles of the brain, and the intimate connection between man and God, microcosm and macrocosm. We can't make the mistake of placing 20th-century anatomical knowledge in the mind of a 16th-century artist. But it does seem that Michelangelo wanted to make a point about God and the human mind/soul.

[–]faux_pseudo 7 points8 points ago

pareidolia for atheists?

[–]Not_Me_But_A_Friend 1 point2 points ago

Just because you are pareidolia does not mean they are not out to get you.

[–]wikipediaBot 3 points4 points ago

Pareidolia:

Pareidolia ( /prdoli/ parr-i-DOH-lee-) is a psychological phenomenon involving a vague and random stimulus (often an image or sound) being perceived as significant. Common examples include seeing images of animals or faces in clouds, the man in the moon or the Moon rabbit, and hearing hidden messages on records played in reverse.

For more information click here

[–]CrunkCoco 4 points5 points ago

Is this coincidence or not?

[–]adam_antichrist 8 points9 points ago

yes, and not a particularly good one. This is an example of the ability of the human brain to see patterns where there are none. Have a look at a cross section of a human brain that HASN'T been shaped to fit the painting, you will notice there isn't QUITE AS MUCH of a resemblance

[–]Mettyman 2 points3 points ago

Yeah.. no.

[–]XandersonCooper 11 points12 points ago

Not even close to a new theory, but one that most casual atheists may not have seen. Man breathing life into god.

[–]Aquagoat 49 points50 points ago

It's titled "The Creation of Adam." This could be interpreted as Adam being created, or Adam creating something.

[–]TheMediumPanda 9 points10 points ago

Funny theory but I'd like to see the original Italian name and possible ambiguous interpretation before making this kind of jump.

[–]bvzm 17 points18 points ago

The Italian original is "La creazione di Adamo", and the meaning ambiguity is exactly the same as in English.

Edit: spelling. And yes, I'm Italian.

[–]TheMediumPanda 2 points3 points ago

K, thanks.

EDIT: Wait, what? Why do I get downvotes for thanking someone for taking the time to answer something?

[–]IBoris 2 points3 points ago

Does this carry over in the Italian translation however? Pretty sure our favourite Ninja Turtle did not speak English.

[–]s-mores 7 points8 points ago

Casual atheists, as opposed to the professional ones?

[–]XandersonCooper 1 point2 points ago

We only eat babies on the rare holiday weekend. Used to be really into it back in college. Now the wife limits me to once in a blue moon.

[–]alm1017 6 points7 points ago

This is not new, during that period it was believed that reason and religion went hand in hand. Eventually, this would lead to the age of the Enlightenment in which 'thought' began to loosen the shackles of religion.

[–]fugularity 4 points5 points ago

It may not be knew, but perhaps known.

[–]alm1017 2 points3 points ago

Thank you for correcting and it is known among academics. Regarding his supposed Atheism...simply put-Hogwash!

[–]hannibl 2 points3 points ago

It is known.

[–]MauritanianSponge 1 point2 points ago

I don't recommend rushing to conclusions putting him as an atheist, but it's really interesting how god is shaped like a brain in this, whether it was intended or not.

[–]jerblove05 1 point2 points ago

Cerebellum doesn't correspond with anything on painting spot on with everything else though.

[–]ThatGuyYouKilled 1 point2 points ago

Please tell me I'm not the only one that up to this point thought it was the 16th chapel...

[–]emmulated 1 point2 points ago

even if this image can be interpreted as a "brain" how does that show that hes an atheist? it could be the opposite and show that maybe god is on his mind! Jumping to conclusions like this is similar to having faith!

[–]slayer1o00 1 point2 points ago

According to my 6th grade Social Studies teacher, he also despised painting and thought sculpting was far superior.

[–]NATESOR 1 point2 points ago

...because believing the human brain exists makes you an atheist.? :lolwut:

[–]littlegoddess 1 point2 points ago

This is brilliant! I've never looked at it this way before! I love it! Thanks for posting

[–]PredicateJam 1 point2 points ago

He also made that dude's dong real small.

[–]sonic_tower 1 point2 points ago

[–]thefirerises 1 point2 points ago

He may have had big balls, but his David sure didn't. Nyuk nyuk.

[–]unscanable 1 point2 points ago

Just keep in mind that this is still pure speculation even though the resemblance is striking.

[–]Mavriq420 1 point2 points ago

This is like a Christian saying something of coincidence was because of Jesus. Like come on now

[–]mr_e_hunter 1 point2 points ago

Nice try Dan Brown

[–]ProfessorTesla 1 point2 points ago

What an arm twist of an explanation. This does nothing to prove he's an atheist.

[–]EntropysChild 1 point2 points ago

Cool story bro.

http://www.roots.group.cam.ac.uk/images/brain.jpg

If that was what Michelangelo was going for, he could have gotten a lot closer.

[–]LazyBrains 1 point2 points ago

I don't get it. Do Christians not believe in brains?

[–]bignastyv 1 point2 points ago

Nah, but sheeple are easier to create when there is no brain involved.

[–]vaginitischlamydia 1 point2 points ago

He was also dissecting the brains of human beings well before it was socially acceptable to do so. Double balls.

[–]penguinrash 1 point2 points ago

It also kind of looks like a cooked chicken or turkey. Maybe he was just hungry.

[–]hot_skillet 1 point2 points ago

This is what they call "grasping for straws"

[–]MikkyfinN 1 point2 points ago

I think this could be viewed in the same light

It should also be noted that God is reaching out through the pineal or "third eye".

[–]sioux4 1 point2 points ago

I kind of saw it as its 'smart' to have god in your life... Yes I am an atheist. But given where it was painted, that's the first thing that popped into my mind. I guess we'll probably never know what Michelangelo meant when he painted it...

[–]SamsChoice 1 point2 points ago

Pareidolia

[–]warhol451 1 point2 points ago

why did Adam have such a small wang?

[–]flying_gummi 1 point2 points ago

Christians also believe in brains

[–]SamsChoice 1 point2 points ago

Pareidolia

[–]dibdab69 1 point2 points ago

Nice, but wishful thinking. From an atheist, this reeks of desperation

[–]ororist 1 point2 points ago

this is a stretch..

[–]Valupta 1 point2 points ago

Seems like confirmation bias. Is there some sort of article or explanation behind this beyond "SEE! I can put a brain over it!"?

[–]jeremyduncan 1 point2 points ago

hmm, I want to upvote for the fascinating image and discussion but downvote for the silly confirmation bias title...

[–]doofhash1575 1 point2 points ago

This comes from an actual study

Their findings were inconclusive.... but there are a couple of other examples in there.

[–]Roger766 1 point2 points ago

Wasnt it not for another 150 years until the first accurate drawings of neuroanatomy came out?

Couldnt you just be finding what you want to see?

[–]Sekuj 1 point2 points ago

michaelangelo was known for dissecting animals and humans in secret.

[–]ehorgan 2 points3 points ago

I don't buy it.

[–]Dip_the_Dog 6 points7 points ago

This is speculation, and pretty far-fetched speculation at that. It would be cool if this was intended by Michelangelo but it seems far more likely that this vague resemblance is a coincidence that is being over-analyzed.

[–]hollingm 1 point2 points ago

Not even a coincidence, but a drawing applied to the painting to make it match up better than it really does.

[–]LucidMetal 5 points6 points ago

Is it just me or DAE think that midbrain is far too slanted to the caudal end of the cranium? And maybe I'm getting nitpicky but in a midsaggital cut you wouldn't get that clear of a lateral (sylvian) fissure.

[–]Not_Me_But_A_Friend 3 points4 points ago

it is just you.

[–]I_CAPE_RATS 9 points10 points ago

Looks Abby Normal

[–]TheMediumPanda 1 point2 points ago

Are you also a brain surgeon/rocket scientist? We should make a club.

[–]LucidMetal 1 point2 points ago

Only if you add dictator of Antarctica to the list.

[–]buckhenderson 1 point2 points ago

john nash?

[–]mistadong 1 point2 points ago

Was that actually his intention? or was this just coincidence and people looking into things too much?

[–]the_last_carfighter 5 points6 points ago

Highly unlikely coincidence, but speculation on what it means exactly is a different story, although it seems fairly clear to me. Most well educated people throughout history knew/know there isn’t an invisible man in the sky, but the Catholic Church was the most powerful international organization/corporation for centuries and not unlike today if you do or say something to seriously jeopardize the sales of a product from a corporation you could be signing your own death warrant. Hence, the hidden meaning in some works.

[–]Captainempathy 1 point2 points ago

I didn't know Dan Brown was on reddit...

[–]dat_kramer 1 point2 points ago

brain=science=atheist amirite guyz?

[–]snoopdrj 2 points3 points ago

I am an atheist, and I have a painting of this on my living room wall. I've been to the Sistine Chapel, and it was incredible. Some of the art and music that came out of that era is some of the best IMHO ever produced.
I don't know if this is what Michelangelo intended, but I will always appreciate his works. Actually, the fact that the church funded artists (I know there was a lot of shiftiness involved) is one of the only good contributions to humanity they have. There is a lot of art, architecture, and music that wouldn't exist without the church.
They can go away though.

[–]Smellz_Like_Smellz 3 points4 points ago

You just blew my fucking mind

[–]TinyConqueror -1 points0 points ago

So, how is a "brain" painted in a chapel in any way related to atheism? Shouldn't it be on r/Christianity?

[–]Big_Ark 9 points10 points ago

I'm with you. I do not understand why details of human anatomy are irreconcilable with Catholicism / Christianity as a whole.

Do Christians not believe in brains, or something?

[–]dizzyd93 2 points3 points ago

It can be perceived as a brain in that Michelangelo believed god was a figment of the mind

[–]Neberkenezzr 0 points1 point ago

He was Actually really really devout, fought with leonardo about god all the time

[–]Skinnypenis_gw 4 points5 points ago

Splinter is gonna be so upset about all this.

[–]pizzafache 0 points1 point ago

I'm a huge fan of the Sixteenth Chapel

[–]biesterd1 0 points1 point ago

Did people not know that this was resembling a brain? But I do wonder, how it can be taken to mean he's an atheist, just because he had extensive knowledge of anatomy.

[–]Godfodder 0 points1 point ago

I'm not really understanding how Michelangelo is giving the church the finger here...

[–]xyroclast 0 points1 point ago

In what stretch of the imagination is the cerebellum featured there?

[–]MythLastbil 0 points1 point ago

Wait.... Does god have boobs in that picture? O.o

[–]alpha69 0 points1 point ago

Michelangelo used to sneak off a lot and dissect dead bodies. He did this for his painting and sculpture; so he could have a better idea of the underlying physical structure of the body.

[–]HashMcGruber 0 points1 point ago

When I was first saw this on r/atheism, I was like "oh, that's pretty cool, I never knew." It was like a good song on the radio. But, then like a good song that kept getting played, this keeps getting posted, so now when I see it, I'm just like "ugh, Jesus Christ, Michelangelo, I wish you would've just fucking spit it out and been hanged or decapitated or whatever."

But, if that had happened, then it would get posted all the time how Michelangelo was "actually an atheist."

[–]Vonnegutter 0 points1 point ago

Symbol that God and other religious entities exist within the mind only?

[–]eddiepoopsmith 0 points1 point ago

I was looking for actual balls...

[–]WomanOfSubstance 0 points1 point ago

I love knowing about renaissance era,those were the people.Multifaceted geniuses who have artistic,linguistic,scientific knowledge and who put us to shame.They must be so proud of themselves knowing even after centuries we are yet to decode the mysteries created by them.

[–]ReyPerea 0 points1 point ago

That is fucking cool.