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top 200 commentsshow all 219

[–]Archchancellor 158 points159 points ago

Don't remember the last time we stoned a woman for not wearing a bikini, or had an honor killing because she refused to have sex with someone outside the bonds of marriage. The cartoon is fundamentally flawed in suggesting that women are forced to wear bikinis, the same way that a woman is forced to wear a burqa. A bikini is a choice, and while there is always societal pressure, much of it unfair, to conform to a constantly changing norm of beauty, the choice to not wear a bikini doesn't come with the threat of bodily injury or death.

[–]themcp 36 points37 points ago

No, the cartoon is not trying to imply that women are forced to wear bikinis. It's showing the differing perspectives of the two characters, or if you want to view it this way, it's showing how the woman in a burka is so brainwashed by her culture that she's unable to consider that a woman might want to wear a bikini because she feels like it or it's comfortable etc.

[–]dreamqueen9103 38 points39 points ago

Don't you think it also shows how the woman in the bikini is so brainwashed by her culture that she's unable to consider a woman might want to wear a burqa for her own reasons?

[–]narcedmonkey 8 points9 points ago

her own reasons, like not being stoned to death????

[–]Jabbatheslann -1 points0 points ago

Modesty? It's the same reason many western women like my roommate dress fully I would imagine. They don't feel comfortable, or they just dont want to, dressing very revealingly, and the social constructs of the middle east lead to a different definition of "revealing." Of course being stoned to death is a problem, but lets not act like that's the only reason people want to wear clothes.

[–]StetsonsAreCool 23 points24 points ago

Or maybe the point of the image is that both outfits are the results of a male-dominated culture!

[–]websnarf 6 points7 points ago

How is wearing a bikini a result of a male dominated culture? Are you saying before that was invented the culture was less male dominated?

[–]TheHated 11 points12 points ago

Your downvotes are funny because 1900-1950's women's swimwear was basically a full blown dress. Only after the sexual revolution in America did women start wearing the skimpy swimwear we see today.

[–]Kennian 8 points9 points ago

To be fair, the gents wore a full suit as well

[–]Archchancellor 1 point2 points ago

I still do.

[–]ShadowAssassinQueef -1 points0 points ago

No they just beat women with sticks, and legally raped their wives.

[–]Archchancellor 1 point2 points ago

The point I was trying to make was not whether or not the woman in either outfit wanted to wear it, but whether or not they had the choice to not wear it. I know some here have said that women are verbally abused for not wearing / not being able to wear a bikini, and that's fucking horrible and sad, but it's still a far cry from actually beating her until she's no longer breathing, I don't care how melodramatic you want to make the issue.

[–]dreamqueen9103 -1 points0 points ago

That's not the point of the comic though. Some women do wear burkas out of their out choice in america.

[–]Archchancellor 0 points1 point ago

You are correct that some women choose to wear the burqa. However, that's not how I interpreted the cartoon, which I saw as trying to draw an equivalency and expose a double standard, which is logically inaccurate. For many women the burqa is not a choice, which is rarely the case for women and bikinis.

[–]Borgcube 4 points5 points ago

I really doubt that the Muslim women actually believe that. It seems more probable that she thinks the other woman sinful and godless for wearing a bikini.

[–]freesyrian 0 points1 point ago

Brainwashed? So there is NO possible way a woman wearing a burqah actually made the decision on her own? She didn't decide she liked covering herself modestly, it was her oppressive husband right??

[–]Cynass 7 points8 points ago

You know I live in france where wearing a burqa is now forbidden, and I really find this banning stupid. It's as stupid as forcing it.

There are women who want to wear a burqa, who don't like the way women bodies are sexualized and objectified. It's just a different perspective, those women want to be judge by their brain and who they really are instead of their body.

Because you can't deny that today with all the eating disorders, all the plastic surgery, all the unhealthy diets that are being done, in the name of the perfect body that women MUST have, this perspective can be a way of liberation from this cult for some women.

I'm not saying it's the best thing, but I think it's like gay mariage or abortions : every people should have the right to do as they want.

[–]wicket42 4 points5 points ago

It's so strange, it's like forcing freedom on you. A bizarre concept.

[–]888mlee 0 points1 point ago

Then that's not freedom? 0_o

[–]kent_eh 4 points5 points ago

Upvote for this:

I really find this banning stupid. It's as stupid as forcing it.

No one should get to make rules (or laws) about what other people wear or don't wear.

If you don't like it, look somewhere else.

[–]slash196 1 point2 points ago

Agreed. The government has no right to tell you what to wear for any reason. That's just basic human liberty.

[–]kwiztas 0 points1 point ago

I disagree; I think masks are a threat to public safety and should be saved for needed situations such as extreme cold.

[–]GrimlockMaster 5 points6 points ago

The burka also sexualizes the female body. The whole point of the burka is to hide the female body so that males don't get tempted by looking at it. It implies that no matter what you wear, the female form is an object of desire; and the effects it has on men, and the actions they take based upon those effects, are the women's fault.

That is fucked up.

[–]Archchancellor 0 points1 point ago

I absolutely agree with you, and I think that it's fucking horrible that some women develop serious disorders because of a bullshit, unattainable feminine "ideal." However, that being said, I would still assert that any woman who chooses not to wear a bikini - in a secular culture - is in infinitely less danger of bodily harm than a woman who - again, in a culture dominated by religious fundamentalism - decides she's not going to wear a burqa.

I agree that the ban on burqas is ridiculous, because it's restricting choice. I also think that laws that state that a burqa is the only thing to be worn are just as, if not more-so, restrictive, regardless of whether or not they are generally accepted.

[–]sweetenigma 0 points1 point ago

I honestly applaud France for doing this. It's a good way to keep these islam extremists out of our country.

[–]Quazz 1 point2 points ago

That's not the point of the cartoon.

It's trying to point out that both sides pity the other sides for how 'wrong' they are.

[–]Archchancellor 0 points1 point ago

And I am saying that the artist is being intellectually dishonest about it.

[–]dusdus 0 points1 point ago

Stop fucking mixing up religious and cultural practices. Strawmanning is NOT how we're going to make people take us seriously.

The largest Muslim majority countries -- Bangladesh and Indonesia -- hijab of all kind is not mandatory. In fact, in Bangladesh, it's considered socially unacceptable in many circumstances to wear hijab. Islam is not the issue here. Islam should be criticized for the fact that it's a religion, and teaches the same things as Christianity with regard to faith and putting stock in the after life. These are the things we should be talking about, not "hurr hurr they do things I don't like"

[–]aggie1391 7 points8 points ago

Mohammad himself said only face and hands of a woman should be visible. Hijabs are fully Islamic. Burqas are actually stricter and never required by Mohammed himself, that bit was a later addition although I'm not sure exactly when. Both are fucked up, of course, but that is my understanding of those things in Islamic law.

[–]dusdus 1 point2 points ago

Maybe I'm making an artificial distinction here. But to me, what the Quran or what Mohammad says means jack squat. What I care about is what the majority of the Muslim population believes is mandatory, and when there are huge countries of Muslims where these things don't happen, I think it's an unjustified induction to say "this is a fact about Islam".

[–]kkjdroid 5 points6 points ago

If the majority were all it took, it would be illegal to work on Sundays in the United States. In countries that are governed by Islam, women have a lot less choice in clothing.

[–]zulaikha_idris 15 points16 points ago

Dafuq? You first claim to stop mixing religious and cultural pratices, and then claim that hijab is not mandatory just because Bangladesh and Indonesia does not make it mandatory?

Hijab is obligatory in Islam, period. It's in the fucking Quran. Stop confusing the atheists here with your apologetic bullshit.

[–]furiouslysleepy 7 points8 points ago

On the one hand, religious texts are so flexible as to be close to meaningless. On the other hand, authorities in Islam generally regard the hijab on some continuum from "encouraged" to "mandatory", and in all cases the reasons are universally repugnant.

[–]nasty_goreng 4 points5 points ago

Also, nowhere in the Quran, nowhere, does it say women have to wear hijab.

[–]sveccha 1 point2 points ago

All the Qur'an says is that women should cover their cleavage with a garment that everyone was already in the habit of wearing. Everything else is ijtihad.

[–]zulaikha_idris 0 points1 point ago

Yeah, because we all know the specifics that is spoken in Hadiths don't count right?

[–]sveccha 0 points1 point ago

They are not on the level of the Qur'an, which you claimed it was.

[–]zulaikha_idris 0 points1 point ago

The command for hijab IS in the Quran, but the specifics are in the hadiths. That's just how things work in Islam.

By your logic, Muslims don't need to move so much to pray, since there is no list of steps on how to pray in the Quran.

[–]sveccha 1 point2 points ago

The Qur'an says to cover your breasts, nothing more, nothing less. The details in Hadith are controversial and have always been. I'm not saying that there is no obligation to cover, I'm saying that wearing the various things that are called hijab and covering certain parts is NOT mentioned in the Qur'an EXCEPT the covering of the breasts.

I am only refuting your false statement that specific coverings, commonly referred to as 'hijab', are mentioned in the Qur'an.

[–]zulaikha_idris 0 points1 point ago

The details in Hadith are controversial and have always been

I'm not talking about weak hadith. I'm talking about Sahih Hadeeths, confirmed to be true by generations of Islamic scholars without any doubt, such as the hadith collections in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.

If you're going to just throw away context provided by hadiths to explain the Quran, then you might as well be a Quranist, which is also unfortunate, because Quranists are also considered as heretics and blashphemers according to most Muslims, especially Sunnis.

[–]sveccha 0 points1 point ago

It would be so much easier for you if you understood what I'm saying. I'm not saying there is no farD or that Sahih Hadiths are not authoritative - I'm saying that the thing that is called Hijab is NOT mentioned in detail in the Qur'an and thus WHAT to wear is not FROM the Qur'an, which you claimed it was. That is all.

[–]dusdus 0 points1 point ago

As an atheist, I could give a rat's ass about what the Quran says. What I care about is what the Muslim community at large does and doesn't do when we ascribe something to Islam. If not all Muslims do it, it's not a part of Islam. How the hell am I being apologetic by saying it's important to not look at, say, Saudi Arabia, and go "Therefore, all Muslims are evil"? We're supposed to be about logic and analytic thinking, not reckless inductions and hate.

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]BEZthePEZ 0 points1 point ago

Umad?

[–]Hope_Eternity 0 points1 point ago

Also, teenage girls in western culture who aren't able to or wont wear bikinis ARE atoned every day, verbally, mentally, and emotionally.

[–]Archchancellor 0 points1 point ago

Without sounding callous to the terrible things that we do to the self-esteem of girls, especially here in America (I have a daughter, and a niece), what you describe is somewhat different than being beaten until you stop breathing.

[–]elfinhilon10 0 points1 point ago

You clearly don't understand the comic strip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1prEYiTiNPY&feature=g-all-u

This is proof enough. Seriously. Morons here, I swear to god.

[–]Archchancellor 0 points1 point ago

Yes, because getting fired for not wearing a uniform at a place of employment is exactly the same as being beaten until you are dead. Furthermore, a "Hooters" uniform is hardly "religiously enforced." In fact, the vast majority of women I see aren't wearing Hooters uniforms, and seem to get through their day with little to no harassment about it.

Your "proof" is bad, and you should feel bad.

[–]normallythere 48 points49 points ago

The difference is how they'll get stoned later.

[–]lol-da-mar-s-cool 18 points19 points ago

lol, even this comment is a repost.

[–]normallythere 5 points6 points ago

Shamelessly.

[–]neotropic9 10 points11 points ago

There is a very subtle manipulation the artist is making to prove their point. Notice that the background to this image is a brick wall. That is odd, isn't it? Why is that woman wearing a bikini next to a brick wall? Bikinis are worn at the beach. But if they were drawn at the beach, it would be way too obvious that the burka is restrictive, and the viewer would be reminded of places in the world where women are forced to wear burkas in sweltering heat, and at the beach. So the artist instead drew them in front of a brick wall, in order to make their point.

[–]Logomac3 31 points32 points ago

As hilarious as the image is, the use of a bikini is a sign of a matriarchal society, rather than a patriarchal one. It shows that the women is the owner and flaunter of her body, rather than a man who guards her jealously like property.

[–]MadDetective 36 points37 points ago

Every time I see this, I get a little annoyed. Seems some people aren't aware that women are BEATEN for showing skin in some parts of the world, while women in the west CHOOSE to wear bikinis or whatever they want. There's a huge difference people.

[–]thefunnywalk 9 points10 points ago

Agreed, as well as a bad argument for sexism, it is often used as an example to support cultural relativism which I find equally infuriating. Cultural relitivism's only use as far as I can see is to stop the stupid from being racist. For anyone with half a brain it seems clear to me that each element of a culture should be judged independetly and not accepted soley because it belongs to a different culture.

[–]ForgettableUsername 1 point2 points ago

You make it sound like whether anyone gets beaten is more important than what they are wearing.

[–]dusdus 1 point2 points ago

in some parts of the world being critical here. But not all. If it were true of all Muslim majority countries, you'd have an argument against Islam. But it's not. You have an argument against Arab culture, and you're framing it as an argument against Islam. Don't be as ignorant as the people you're trying to argue against.

[–]harmsc12 -1 points0 points ago

Show me a majority muslim country where that assertion is not true.

[–]dusdus 1 point2 points ago

Bangladesh. Turkey. Indonesia. Lebanon. Egypt. Pakistan.

[–]Illuria 0 points1 point ago

Well done refuting him, you make good arguments, but Israel isn't a majority Muslim country. It's only about 15% Muslim if I remember correctly.

[–]dusdus 0 points1 point ago

True. I was thinking more specifically the Muslim areas, or Palestine. I'll edit that out.

[–]harmsc12 -1 points0 points ago

Women are getting publicly raped in Egypt for asserting their rights. I'll give you those other countries, though.

[–]dusdus 0 points1 point ago

I have to confess I didn't know that about Egypt. Thank you. At any rate, the point about dress code still stands, other terrifying things notwithstanding.

I should point out, it's not that womens' rights are awesome in the places I listed. But I think it's difficult to know what womens' rights would be like in those countries without Islam, but keeping the rest constant. Like, Bangladesh is weirdly specific about womens' rights -- some things it shames the US at, and other things are atrocious. But, how this compares to other South Asian countries, for instance, I'd guess it might actually be better if not the same.

[–]furiouslysleepy 2 points3 points ago

...America is a matriarchal society then? Was I sleeping when we got a female president and female government, majority female CEOs, majority female religious leaders, majority female academics and intellectuals, and majority female Hollywood, where beautiful, captivating, and talented women protagonists age gracefully and go on to play award-winning encore roles later in life, sometimes being paired up with hawt men half their age?

[–]Logomac3 -1 points0 points ago

That's not what "Matriarchal Society" means. A matriarchal society is one in which a woman makes her own sexual and reproductive decisions and is not considered the property of her father or husband.

[–]furiouslysleepy 1 point2 points ago

No, a matriarchal society, analogous to a patriarchal society, would be one where women hold positions of power in the society, rather than men. That is the literal meaning of the word.

That you would think that simply not being a patriarchal society makes it a matriarchal society is a bit sad.

[–]Logomac3 0 points1 point ago

I wasn't necessarily using it in the literal sense. I was using the definition I'd gleamed from so many feminist blogs and what-have-you.

[–]brumbrum21 4 points5 points ago

yes you are correct given our western point of view, and I am not arguing that. but I could also see how a muslim woman would see her that way.

[–]JaronK 7 points8 points ago

Exactly. From a different point of view, Western women are showing off their bodies like meat in a butcher shop, turning themselves into nothing more than display cases and acting like property. Meanwhile a woman from their culture is only what she says and does... her body is only shown to those she choses to show it to.

Cultural understanding is always important.

[–]gilligan156 11 points12 points ago

Okay, but they don't HAVE TO, American women aren't compulsed to show their bodies off for fear of violent reprisal. You're completely missing the point. The Muslim woman does NOT have that choice.

[–]JaronK 4 points5 points ago

Depends entirely on the area, doesn't it? In many areas of America, wearing a Burka could get you physically attacked (especially in the bible belt). Meanwhile, many areas of the Arab world fully allow bikinis. Here's a shot from Lebanon: http://thesuiteworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Lebanon-girl-bikini-TheSuiteWorld.jpg

[–]Darthcaboose 2 points3 points ago

Ahhh, Lebanon... The 'mecca' of cosmetic surgeons in the Middle East! Now if only we were a melting pot filled with tolerance and understanding.

[–]StandardFruit 12 points13 points ago

I'm American, Muslim, and female. :) I have a choice to cover up or not, and I choose to. Like JaronK say, my body is my own and I will show it to who I please, even if that means showing no one at all.

As for cultures where women are forced to cover up, this is obviously wrong. Many woman love covering up, it really feels good to control who sees what and have men appreciate my mind more than my looks. For women who don't, they shouldn't have to cover up with the burqa/niqab/hijab. However, violence and aggressive words come from everyone, I've been harassed for covering up.

I think we can all agree though that the best thing is for people (male or female) to have the freedom to cover up as little or as much as they like. Within reason, that is. :)

[–]montyjack 1 point2 points ago

Cheers to you. It's kind of difficult to explain this to a lot of American men without being seen as "repressed."

[–]dusdus 0 points1 point ago

StandardFruit, as a staunch atheist, I applaud you for coming on here. Honestly I do deplore your beliefs, but moreso I hate other atheists who don't even take the time to try to understand the religious and cultural contexts underlying a lot of what people in the west see "bad" about Islam.

[–]StandardFruit 1 point2 points ago

I applaud you for coming on here.

Thank you brother, but I think it's normal? People should be able to talk to each other :D

It's okay that you don't like my religion, it doesn't mean we can't get along. I just want to clear misconceptions about how Muslim women are treated. :)

[–]montyjack 0 points1 point ago

Er... I'm a little unclear what she said that could be any way considered deplorable, or are you just saying you're not a fan of Islam?

[–]Hope_Eternity 0 points1 point ago

I'm glad you spoke up, I think the big misunderstanding here is many people think that muslim women don't have a choice, period. I didn't have a source or any way to back it up, but I knew that wasn't true.

[–]DeadGuyKai -3 points-2 points ago

Purdah is patriarchal in all its forms. It is therefore evil in all its forms. It saddens me that women like you buy into it.

[–]dusdus 0 points1 point ago

Unless you're equivalently arguing against sexist bans on toplessness in western societies in the same breath, you need to consider whether you're being impartial and objective, or whether you're being reactionary.

[–]DeadGuyKai 3 points4 points ago

Oh, look... A concern troll.

I'll tell you what's reactionary: Beating women for not dressing how men think they should dress. I've seen it done with my own eyes in the Middle East in the name of Islam.

When Islam stops treating women like livestock or worse, then we can talk about the sexism here in the West as a basis for comparison.

Personally, I have no issue with toplessness.

[–]dusdus 5 points6 points ago

A "troll"? I've been on /r/atheism for months. I just believe in skepticism and impartiality, which is something atheists are supposed to be about. Not islamophobia, or mixing up religious and cultural misdeeds.

You keep talking about it as crimes committed by Islam. It's not an issue of Islam, it's an issue of Middle Eastern culture, as you pointed out. If it were otherwise, we would see non-Arab Muslim countries following suit. But they don't

Incidentally, I've seen someone beaten and hospitalized for how she was dressing, as well. She was wearing niqab in South Dakota. Incidentally, she was a South Asian Muslim. Reminder: Bangladesh and Muslim parts of India have no rules or societal norms about women wearing hijab. She did this by her own free will.

As atheists, we're supposed to be above emotional, reactionary, or non-objective thinking. We're supposed to be skeptical. Please keep this in mind, especially when dealing with issues that are not just about religion, but also deal with much more complex cultural and societal norms.

[–]DeadGuyKai 0 points1 point ago

You talk about Middle Eastern culture as if it something apart from Islam. It isn't. These things are done in the name of Islam.

"If it were otherwise, we would see non-Arab Muslim countries following suit. But they don't"

False. We do see it in non-Arab Muslim countries. Look, for example, at Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

"As atheists, we're supposed to be above emotional, reactionary, or non-objective thinking."

You're not thinking objectively at all, just making excuses for the inexcusable.

[–]Hope_Eternity 0 points1 point ago

Purdah?

[–]DeadGuyKai 2 points3 points ago

[–]aheh89 1 point2 points ago

what.... what.... what.... What a ridiculous claim. Bikinis equal matriarchy, I am going to assume you mean gender equality. So I will base my counter argument. In a society where women are constantly sexualized, ie ours, women are subjugated as well. We create value system which determines a woman's usefulness to society based on attractiveness and not competence. This creates a male dominated system because they can dehumanize women by making them sex objects. Just look at fox news female journalist versus the males.

The right to wear a bikini doesn't cause this, but the cartoon isn't pointing that out. It pointing out that in both cases women are reduced to sexual object. One as a shrouded slave, and the other as a slave to her own relative attractiveness.

[–]IndigoPisces 5 points6 points ago

Until someone rapes her and blames it on her choice of wearing a bikini, and parts of society agree with that sentiment.

[–]Logomac3 2 points3 points ago

Except that if they do that then they're not approving of the bikini, which puts them in line with the people who want women in burkas.

[–]dusdus 0 points1 point ago

Yet, they still have to wear a top ;)

[–]montyjack 0 points1 point ago

Matriarchal? I think you're going a bit far there. Yes it means that women can choose to expose more of their body in public. It also can mean that women are now EXPECTED to expose more of their body in public. In a truly matriarchal society, these two characters would pass one another without giving it a second thought because BOTH choices would be considered valid.

[–]x1PMac1x 7 points8 points ago

And there it is. The real truth about different perspectives, and different ways to handle the same situation. It is not about Islam. It is about all society.

[–]Godssheep 11 points12 points ago

One of them can be both in bikini as as covered as she want.

Which one?

[–]A_WILD_ABRA_APPEARED 4 points5 points ago

Both. Otherwise the one on the left would have already been stoned. Logically, if they are in the same place, they obey the same laws. The woman on the right depicts a Muslim woman wearing traditional garb in a place where bikinis are legal as well. She is, therefore, wearing it not by law but by choice.

Hoooooooray logic!

[–]Skeptical_Berserker -1 points0 points ago

that's not logic, it's presumption...

:-P

[–]A_WILD_ABRA_APPEARED 1 point2 points ago

It's presumption to assume either woman is being oppressed.

[–]kkjdroid -1 points0 points ago

You aren't thinking with portals.

[–]Godssheep -1 points0 points ago

Yes, because being stoned is the only reason she would do it. Not because of pressure from her husband/familly. Not at all. Never.

[–]sir-potato-head 13 points14 points ago

everybody talking about the left girl having the choice to wear or not a bikini have to think about social pressure that our society applies on girls to try to make them focus entirely on their physical appearance.

[–]epaGamer 5 points6 points ago

but she still can not wear bikini and nobody will say a word in contrary to the right girl which will get killed for not wearing burqa

[–]elfinhilon10 0 points1 point ago

That is exactly the point I make. The EXACT point I make. Some people really are clueless..

[–]redditonhardmode 6 points7 points ago

one doesn't get killed for taking something off.

[–]arc_angle[S] 2 points3 points ago

Except in Islam

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

I wonder what men have to do with these points? There's psycopaths and religious nutjobs.

Anyone could be any of those things. I think Islamic Grandmother would stone the shit out of her daughter if she wore a bikini just as the infant children would, along with the brothers of the woman.

[–]Swooshs 1 point2 points ago

Hmmm...Suppose for a second that wearing the hijab was not a religious practice but a cultural one.Would that change anyone's view of the pic.

[–]Bananlaksen 0 points1 point ago

If you by culture mean noone will beat you up.

One is enforced by people being nice to you, the other enforced by people raping, beating or even killing you...

[–]MightyLemur 1 point2 points ago

Funnily enough, from reading the comments, culture A doesn't quite understand the part of the joke revolving around culture A.

[–]Sandbox47 1 point2 points ago

So what are you saying? That female oppression is our own doing? Or that men oppress a wide variety of women?

[–]fslap 1 point2 points ago

Huge difference.

Woman on the left has the freedom to wear anything she wants.

Woman on the right has no such freedom.

[–]dirtysantchez 1 point2 points ago

Of course, the woman on the left has a choice.

[–]hobdobgoblin 1 point2 points ago

This will probably get buried, but I'll just add my two cents anyway. I have spoken with several Muslim women in the US who have chosen to wear head scarves or otherwise chosen to be excessively modest by western standards. What they said actually made sense to me and I can understand why some women might find extreme modesty appealing. Women are objectified constantly in our culture and are under a constant pressure to conform to certain body images. Heck, you can even see it in some of these posts and other places on reddit: e.g. "such a shame that body is covered up."

I actually think this cartoon tells an important story. It bothers me that in both cases they are judging each other based on how much they are being objectified by men. Sure, there are places where women will be killed for dressing in a bikini. However, it wasn't that long ago that women were denied the right to vote in the US. Oppression in endemic to human society. This cartoon isn't about finding a "middle ground" but rather pointing out that there are a lot of ways to approach the problem of the objectification of women.

[–]_Apostate_ 1 point2 points ago

There are only a few places where you face death for not wearing a burka. In most Islamic countries it's totally okay to dress normally.

[–]Crook3d 2 points3 points ago

Socially conditioned to believe that they should dress a certain way....

[–]S1LW3R 4 points5 points ago

Guess what. i am a muslim and in my country every girl looks like the girl at left in summer...

[–]kkjdroid 0 points1 point ago

Do you want a fucking cookie? There are Muslims in all parts of the world and many parts of the world allow bikinis. Now, if you told me that you were living in a Muslim theocratic state and the girls looked like that, I'd be intrigued.

[–]S1LW3R 6 points7 points ago

i didnt understood %70 of your reply (im not english as you can guess i live in a muslim country(turkey))

i just want to say in my country we muslims live as same as chritian countries like boobs on summer and equal rights with woman and some slutty girls and normal girls miniskirts pants tiny outfits and shit. The muslims that /r/Atheism is talking about is the muslim countriwes like arabistan i just wanted to explain that all muslims are not like them.Actually we muslims almost act liek the athesists on /r/atheism (i talk about the science and shit we dont say god when we see everything i didnt even hear the word "Allah" and/or "tanrı" (god in turkish) for 2 weeks

[–]kkjdroid 0 points1 point ago

Oh, I know. My point was that while many Muslims are good people (you can find good people in most any group), theocratic countries are almost always highly oppressive. Theocratic Christian countries, when they were common, were no better.

[–]S1LW3R 2 points3 points ago

thanks forunderstanding me actually the musims that /r/atheism is talking about is just like the baptist curch of the muslims (you know overcatholivc andd like that) i cant instant comment right no im going out for cinema bye if you leave a comment i will answer it for sure

[–]kkjdroid 0 points1 point ago

Yeah, the basic problem is that the moderates of most religions fail to condemn their extremists sufficiently.

[–]S1LW3R 0 points1 point ago

yeah if a person have a religion he/she can just do good works and things like that to go to heaven i just cant think god willl get you into heaven if you beat a woman or burn her for nothing and will burn you in hell for dont believing to god and making good work for humanity.

and we call the type of woman at right ninjas and its pretty fun to call them show us your ninja things an run away

[–]getter1 0 points1 point ago

then when you tell some girls that you care about their brain an feelings they think you are full of shit.

Then you just take some patiences and some non herp-derp explaining and they think its cute that you are 'odd' from the other guys but your still cool enough to go on another date. Feels good man.

[–]PolygonNinja 0 points1 point ago

It sickens me to think that people still believe shit like this. The same could be said about Wemon if you want to go there.

[–]Fausto1981 0 points1 point ago

yes! but there's a difference: some burka women are forced to wear burka, but no semi nude girl is forced to dress sexy.

[–]HiAsFuq 0 points1 point ago

New idea, let's just stop wearing clothes. Then society's expectations can't be raised or lowered because it's all right there on the table.

I would find it hard (pun not intended) to walk around with an erection all day every day for the first week and a half, but eventually all the old people might join in the nudity so it wouldn't be that bad.

[–]QuirkLord 0 points1 point ago

Samuel Jackson or demoman I'm confused.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

hmmnmnm interesting cartoon

[–]JackRawlinson 0 points1 point ago

Yeah, this cartoon is shit because it blindly ignores the huge, key difference between the two situations in order to make a very cheap and totally bogus point.

[–]zulaikha_idris 0 points1 point ago

Nice try, Omar.

[–]Enrys 0 points1 point ago

Except one style of clothing is a choice made by the woman.

[–]Punkrocker333 1 point2 points ago

Well, the girl on the left actually has a choice to wear that.

[–]elfinhilon10 -2 points-1 points ago

I thank you very much for this image. This image is actually really enlightening to varying thoughts around the world in different cultures. It really is amazing.

[–]rasputine 1 point2 points ago

You shouldn't find this enlightening. It's incredibly wrong.

[–]elfinhilon10 -3 points-2 points ago

...You're kidding right? The whole point of this image is how one culture perceives another. Critical thinking.

[–]Skeptical_Berserker 1 point2 points ago

Yeah, except the Burka isn't optional... a bikini is despite all this nonsense about women being "convinced" they have to wear one...

[–]Hope_Eternity -3 points-2 points ago

No. They. Do not. For god's sake, they have a choice. In many third world countries yes, they would most likely be punished if they didn't, but the focus of this picture is obviously centered in a first world country, where they DO have a choice.

[–]Skeptical_Berserker 4 points5 points ago

In many third world countries yes, they would most likely be punished if they

That's the point many are making about the Burka and this image

Some are turning it into a "society/culture" thing.

But the simple fact is no one in any part of the world is forced to wear a bikini. Women are forced to wear Burka's.

That's the point many are making.

[–]Hope_Eternity -2 points-1 points ago

Are you a girl? Because women aren't ecaxtly FORCED to wear bikinis here, BUT, just as muslim women are taught they should cover up by their society/family (I'm only talking about first world countries) so are women here taught by society that we should show our stuff through magasines, advertising, etc.

[–]rasputine 0 points1 point ago

You aren't beaten with a stick or stoned to death if you fail to obey your expectations. There's a bit of a fucking difference there.

[–]Hope_Eternity -1 points0 points ago

Are you reading my responses completely? Because I SPECIFICALLY said in modern countries, which is where this takes place. NOT in third world countries.

[–]Hope_Eternity 0 points1 point ago

Women aren't stoned here. They have a choice.

[–]rasputine 0 points1 point ago

The Shafia women will be happy to know that they weren't actually murdered, since this doesn't happen in first world countries.

[–]UKMuffins -4 points-3 points ago

I think as much as woman feel bad for the Muslim women. They do sometimes look at us and pity us. There are obviously things in their culture that are horrible against woman but they also have some advantages. It's all in eye of beholder.

[–]DeadGuyKai 8 points9 points ago

I've never seen a woman beaten for wearing or not wearing a bikini. I have, however, personally witnessed Islamic religious police beating women for showing a few stray hairs.

[–]Hope_Eternity -1 points0 points ago

I think the point of the picture is for you to look at women who wear burkas (no idea how to spell that) in first world countries, where they have a choice.

[–]DeadGuyKai 0 points1 point ago

Purdah is evil in all its forms, even when deluded women follow it by choice.

[–]Hope_Eternity 0 points1 point ago

It isn't exactly purdah as described in wikipedia though, if they're doing it by choice, it's because they want people to focus on who they ARE and not what they look like. Doesn't it make sense? Men could do the same thing if they wanted to, and it would help people connect easier without basing their judgments on what a person looks like.

[–]DeadGuyKai 0 points1 point ago

No, it is purdah. That the women have internalized it doesn't change that.

[–]Hope_Eternity 0 points1 point ago

How is it bad then? I personally don't feel it's the same thing, they aren't segregating themselves from others.

[–]DeadGuyKai 0 points1 point ago

It is bad because purdah is based on the idea that women are inherently corrupting and must be hidden away.

[–]Hope_Eternity 0 points1 point ago

Which is why I said this isn't purdah

[–]DeadGuyKai 0 points1 point ago

Except that it is. Purdah is the practice and it is fundamentally patriarchal. Much like slavery, how its victims have rationalized it to themselves is tragic, but immaterial.

[–]MBStewart -1 points0 points ago

I think the difference is one has a choice on what she wears. Someone has to point out the obvious.

[–]Hope_Eternity 2 points3 points ago

As it has been pointed out before, many women (especially in first world countries) CHOOSE to cover up like that.

[–]MBStewart 0 points1 point ago

True story.

[–]Raevyne -1 points0 points ago

Well, it's "choose" to cover up or be killed by their families for the sake of restoring honor. It is the clothing of choice for women and girls who have been taught to be ashamed of their bodies. I could see a burka being comfortable if it were cold and/or raining, but that's about it. The desert seldom faces either.

[–]theurgetosurge -2 points-1 points ago

The one on the left is optional. The one on the right is not. Big difference.

[–]Hope_Eternity 2 points3 points ago

As I've said before...many women (especially in first world countries) CHOOSE to cover up like that.

[–]vargonian 0 points1 point ago

As many people will respond, that's fine, but point is that a woman in a free country can dress in a burqa and won't be punished for it. What if a woman chose to wear a bikini in a typical Muslim theocracy?

[–]samuelbt 0 points1 point ago

There are actually some countries that have successfully tried or are trying to ban burkas and the like.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/8781241/Burka-ban-French-women-fined-for-wearing-full-face-veil.html

[–]fobygrassman -1 points0 points ago

Not this cartoon again. Totally missing the point.

[–]SevenDeadlyNinjas -1 points0 points ago

HEY, LOOK EVERYONE! IT'S THE UNDISTRIBUTED MIDDLE.

Learn your rhetological fallacies.

[–]novum_vipera -1 points0 points ago

I'm sorry but did SRS just arrive?

[–]Aavagadrro -1 points0 points ago

How is it 'men' when women are thinking it? Oh right... men are always wrong. Got it. Almost forgot. ;)

[–]zarmala -1 points0 points ago

Hey guys... You might not believe this, but there are a lot of women who actually choose to cover up. Not every single woman in burqa is in it because of her husband or a threat of stoning.

[–]rastashark -3 points-2 points ago

Don't blame men, blame Anna Wintour.