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True and Hilarious (imgur.com)
submitted 2 months ago by whixer
[–]AdequatelyCynical 71 points72 points73 points 2 months ago
A significant number of Christian religions actually accept evolution; it just so happens that the ones that don't usually end up making the most noise.
[–]LivingtheWord 3 points4 points5 points 2 months ago
That does come from rejecting the Bible's teachings regarding creation
[–]AdequatelyCynical 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
It's only against the Bible if you interpret the creation stories as historical fact. Most modern non-Evangelical Christian religions accept the books like Genesis to be metaphor.
[–]Eighthsin 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago
Then there's ones that claim that they don't follow evolution, but break down every detail of evolution, and instead, call it something different.
[–]ANEPICLIE 17 points18 points19 points 2 months ago
I'd say it's more an attempt to stay relevant than a paradigm shift
[–]Stingerc 14 points15 points16 points 2 months ago
actually, the Catholic church officially supports evolution, which means that almost 1 billion Catholics do too since it's the official church stance. Creationism is mostly supported by evangelical Christians, mainly based out of the United States.
[–]TheTwelfthGate 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago
South Korea is every bit as staunch (if not more so) on teaching purely creationism
[–]ZiggyZombie 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
Do you doubt that the Korean people were born from a bear eating too much garlic and becoming pregnant with the first man?
Well obviously not, that is plain scientific fact, I redact my aforementioned comment.
[–]Ogopog0 8 points9 points10 points 2 months ago
As a Christian in Canada. I can confirm that most people in Canada believe in evolution as well. It's only the southern Americans
[–]Stingerc 12 points13 points14 points 2 months ago*
went to catholic school all my life, was taught nothing but evolution in class. Only times creationism ever came up was when a girl who was an evangelical asked that creationism be taught as well, she was told it was not church policy and it would not be taught since it had no scientific basis. The other was a coach, who was also evangelical, tried to sneak it in during a health class, she was told she could not for the same reasons stated above, she protested and was removed from teaching the class. She quit a few days after.
edit: mistake in writing this, I meant creationism never came up, evolution was all we were taught.
[–]acesoron 5 points6 points7 points 2 months ago
Interesting, I went to Catholic school all my life and evolution was taught as part of biology/microbiology and genetics. Honestly, growing up I didn't know any Catholics who had a problem with it. Guess it all depends on the group you are exposed to.
[–]Stingerc 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago
same here. I don't get this. The creationist thing is mainly a Baptist/Evangelical thing. If anything the catholic church has been pro science for a while. They officially believe in evolution, and also support stem cell research.
[–]weskokigen 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
That is doing it right.
[–]whixer[S] 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
I went to a Catholic school as well. I recall in biology class, they completely skipped over evolution. The closest material we learned was cellular biology.
[–]Deracination 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
A small note: the stereotype about southern (United States of) Americans isn't true. Throughout the entire country, every opinion exists. Perhaps it's because people tend to associate this with Republicans, which are mostly prevalent in the south, but there's no more racism or crazy religiosity in the south than anywhere else.
[–]davdev 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
Come to Boston and try to claim it is as religious as Tupelo? Hint, it isn't, not by a long shot. Up here maybe 5% of people are creationists, and they are all considered loons by the rest of us. Even my friends who claim to be religious only go to church on Easter and Xmas, and never do any actual praying
[–]Deracination 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
I meant more that state-sized regions weren't obviously more or less religious. It varies mostly city-to-city. For instance, my hometown was incredibly Catholic and racist, while a city five minutes away didn't tend to be at all.
All right, then instead of coming to Boston, come to MA, my argument remains. In fact, you could come to all of New England and not find anywhere near the level of religiosity of Mississippi.
I didn't find a lot of religiosity in Mississippi.
[–]hoolsvern 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
Maybe up in Maine.
[–]TheTwelfthGate 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
As a southern republican atheist, I can confirm this.
[–]Dekodev 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
huh? don't you have segregated proms in the south?
Alright, that's one place, and it shows more maturity than anything, I think. There are plenty of other places where both whites and blacks would want a segregated prom, that's just the only place that's honest about it.
[–][deleted] -16 points-15 points-14 points 2 months ago
Ugh, a Christian. Take your fairytales and get the fuck out of r/atheism
[–]Ogopog0 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
If you're not an atheist then you have as much right to be here as I do. Take your hate and get the fuck out of here. Atheists are people who don't believe in a god. It is nowhere in their description that they hate people with religions. You sir are not an atheist. You are a hater.
[–]designerutah 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
Do they really support evolution, or just "theistic evolution"? See, if they still attribute the changes to god, then it's not really accepting evolution is it?
[–]Stingerc 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
Theistic Evolution is basically saying that evolution is part of god's plan, It's a way of tying god and science together. It doesn't try to prove the biblical story of creation or pass it on as fact.
The Catholic church sees the creation story in Genesis as an allegory not as facts like baptists and evangelicals. It supports the theory of evolution as factual, it just says it's all part of god's plan.
Then why label it theistic evolution? Isn't it just evolution, in the same way that gravity, electricity, etc. are all "part of god's plan"? From what I understand, they don't accept evolution "as is," but add on some caveats, like god starting it (not part of evolutionary theory), god guiding it (also not part of evolutionary theory), and god being the reason changes occur in the first place (i.e., mutations don't just happen when circumstances are correct, god ensures the circumstances are correct to get the mutation he wants). That isn't accepting evolution, that's adding their own bits to it, making a new, unproven hypothesis based on a proven theory.
At least that's how every Catholic I've really talked to about it has explained it, god started it, god guided it, and all the changes occurred because god made them happen. Not quite evolution.
The caveats you speak of is that they believe everything is part of god's plan. It's more a question of faith than one of science. They agree with the science of it, they just believe it's part of god's grand plan. They see his hand in everything and science is just proof of it. They don't dispute the science, they just see it as proof of god's grand plan.
99% of the time it wasn't even an issue. I was taught by Marist Brothers and a couple of Jesuits and god never entered into science. All of them had Phd's in physics, chemistry, biology, or subjects similar to that. If ever asked about the role of god, they just told us it was part of his plan and that science was his way of letting us know he was there. They encouraged us to learn and to explore these things, because as they saw it, it was understanding god.
I'm not religious, but it infuriates me to think that some atheist think that atheists have the sole right to call science their own and ignore all the amazing scientist and scientific discoveries made by members of the catholic church. Like i stated before, you can discredit the church for other things, but you can't on the realm of science. They have been at forefront of scientific discovery, study and education, as much as it annoys atheist.
[–]Pyromaniac605 -2 points-1 points0 points 2 months ago
That doesn't really affect what ANEPICLIE said, it could still just as easily be an attempt to stay relevant.
[–]Stingerc 3 points4 points5 points 2 months ago
stay relevant? Dude, the church has been pro science from a long time, helping produce priest sicentist like Gregor Mendle, the father of modern genetics or George Lemaitre, a priest and astrophysicist who first propose the big bang theory. On top of that, catholic universities around the world carry on great scientific research.
I'm sorry, but saying them accepting evolution is just an attempt at relevance is ignorant and wrong. If anything, the embrace of science has been one of the few progressive stances the Catholic church can boast. Again, you can dislike them for other things, just don't be a hypocrite and bunch them up with Luddite attitude of baptist and evangelicals.
[–]Stingerc 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago
a more detailed list of catholic priest who were also scientist as you can see it's not a recent thing the Catholic church did to stay relevant as you say.
[–]Pyromaniac605 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
I never said it was a recent thing.
[–]shepherd62 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
Actually, I can back that up. Growing up as a Christian I assumed that evolution was of the devil and was bad period. But as I learned, in school and on here, I learned that yes alot of aspects of evolution make sense and would work even in the creationist view point. I used to think evolution was that bad 4 letter word, but fuck, it ain't. And yes, usually the ones that don't make the most noise but they do not speak for all of us.
[–]Bonadoos 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
exactly. Saying all Christians believe in creationism is like saying all atheists are hatemongers. But you'd only believe that if you took everything in r/Athiesm as how everyone behaves.
Seems like a passive aggressive attack if I ever saw one. Usually theists are differentiated from, say, deists because they reject science if it clashes with their religion. Since the Bible states God created man, Christian theists reject evolution.
[–]CaptnAwesomeGuy 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
Christianity does like totally say we were created out of dust bro. Good for them Christians interpreting that metaphorically in order to accept the obvious.
[–]hat678 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
now they just have to realize that the rest of the supernatural bullshit is not true either.
[–]phpdoesnotcare 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
You should try and read this.
[–]FickleWalrus 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
Those arguments are awfully ad-hoc.
aren't a bunch of scientist saying that the matter we are made of came from stardust? I've seen plenty of post here of scientist saying that and people creaming their pants posting them. Being religious and being scientifically inclined are not opposing forces. Respect others right to believe what they want and defend your right to believe as well. Just don't be douche and piss on others believes because they aren't your own.
Created out of dust =/= being made up of the elements released from stars, such as carbon
Depends what you mean by the term "creationism." If you mean YEC, then you're correct. But if you mean the broader idea that God created everything, then Christians are still very much creationists, they've just adapted a little when science showed that their creation story was seriously flawed. They still attribute the existence of everything to a deity, and believe that he is responsible for man, and how all of it turned out.
[–]FoxifiedNutjob -1 points0 points1 point 2 months ago
Dear Christians,
Ok, so you don't believe in the creation story, great!
Now, the next thing you have to do, is to present the yardstick you use in order to decide what in the bible is literal and what is fantasy. can you do that?
You must also show that your interpretation is the correct one and that every other interpretation is incorrect, can you do that?
The bible isn't a salad bar, so you can't pick and chose what parts you want to believe in, while telling everyone to ignore other parts. It's all or nothing.
I find it unnerving how Christians only interpret the Bible anyway they seem fit. Funny how they interpret it to justify their intolerance, their own politics, their hypocrisy and the self-righteous bullsh1t they impose on others, huh?
[–]ktheq555 33 points34 points35 points 2 months ago
As a science educator, it frustrates me to constantly see the misleading walking "line" of primates leading up to the "human." Evolution is not linear nor are humans the ultimate goal. I appreciate the sentiment, but please use a branching diagram next time.
[–]irawwwr 5 points6 points7 points 2 months ago
I agree. In short, this picture is neither true or hilarious. Another shitty /r/atheism post...
[–]ElectricG -5 points-4 points-3 points 2 months ago
Only showing one path doesn't imply that it's not a branching process, nor does it imply a "goal". I do not understand this criticism.
[–]NobleGnu 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago
You understand that, and most of the people here probably do. But that (ubiquitous) depiction of evolution can cause a lot of confusion. Did homo-erectus give birth to a human and thus they were walking around together? That diagram sure says so.
[–]WombatDominator 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago
As an evolutionary biologist, this makes me hate you on so many levels. That picture is not accurate and poorly depicts the true linage of homo sapiens. sigh
[–]GTi_83 20 points21 points22 points 2 months ago
not true, we did not evolve from any apes, we evolved from a common ancestor. its people like you that make people think that we came from apes and then disbelieve in evolution. so fuck you.
[–]Kbwahs 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
I came to say this exact thing. Enjoy your upvote, sir.
[–]whixer[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 2 months ago
Our common ancestor is much closer genetically to a modern primate than to us. The "ape" you're referring to is not a modern day ape. It is our common ancestor, which just so happens to look more similar to a modern day ape. Please do fact check before you spew out ignorance.
[–]Ogopog0 9 points10 points11 points 2 months ago
You both are correct but he is more correct. "Apes" are more of a modern name for the class if animals. We did evolve from a common ancestor which resembles the modern day ape. However, our ancestors were nowhere near the same as modern day apes. Also, a common ancestor could mean anything. If you believe (as an evolutionist) that we evolved from the apes we have now then you are believing a contractors statement. If we evolved from apes then why are there still apes around?. Answer: we did not evolve from apes, we evolved from a common ancestor from a similar genus.
[–][deleted] 2 months ago
[deleted]
[–]whixer[S] -5 points-4 points-3 points 2 months ago
Except both are true in this case? Nakalipithecus and Ouranopithecus (correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe these species were the last "common ancestors" of modern apes and modern humans before the genus split) are more genetically similar, and look more similar to modern apes than we do.
[–]GTi_83 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
we are very closely related to chimpanzees, most likely the closest living relative humans have. source = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolutionary_genetics#Sequence_divergence_between_humans_and_apes
[–]MLP_magic 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
It is our common ancestor, which just so happens to look more similar to a modern day ape.
All aboard the vague imprecise train! Last stop, some retard trying to make excuses for a picture actually meant to simplify and stylize the portrayal of evolution for the masses! Tchoo tchoo!
Just post a phylogenetic/rank classification instead of this "artist's rendition" piece of shit.
Oh wait, you don't want scientific accuracy, you just care about "sticking it to those mean christians". Try not to get hurt, you're so edgy you might cut yourself.
[–]weskokigen -1 points0 points1 point 2 months ago
I didn't see the word "ape" anywhere in the original post.
was referring to the picture of a man coming from an ape
[–]weskokigen 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
That is most likely an ancestor that was morphologically similar to modern day apes. You should not automatically assume that it is an ape.
[–]davdev -1 points0 points1 point 2 months ago
you're right, we didn't evolve from apes, we ARE apes. We didn't evolve from Chimps or Gorillas, we share an ancestor with them, but we are apes
[–]kit_carlisle 7 points8 points9 points 2 months ago
False and misleading.
Catholicism fully accepts the theory of evolution.
Oh for god's sake. I think everyone is aware that some Christians accept evolution. In the United States, you are an unfortunate minority. While I suppose more precise language would be technically correct (the best kind of correct!) I would hope that the intention is clear regardless.
[–]johnston9234 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago
So what you are saying is that it is inappropriate to generalize a population...like christians...
[–]DrBrian -2 points-1 points0 points 2 months ago
They don't "fully accept" the theory of evolution or they would pack up shop and realize they're a bunch of fools. They believe in evolution to a certain extent. A version of the scientific form of evolution modified just enough to throw in the whole "God made it all and made Adam and Eve" bit.
[–]kit_carlisle 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
The Catechism teaches that humans evolved from microorganisms over the course of billions of years. Take that as you like it.
[–]stmichael71 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago
Let's be honest which Christians we're talking about. Most Christians I know here in the US don't disregard evolution. As someone else has already remarked, the Catholic Church has no objections to evolution, instead finding it compatible with Scripture.
[–]v_soma 3 points4 points5 points 2 months ago*
The Christians you know are not actually representative of the general population of Christians in the US. Most Christians in the US do in fact disregard biological evolution as I will describe later.
According to a Gallup Poll conducted May 3-6, 2012, at least 78% of Americans in general do not accept that biological evolution was responsible for origin of humans (at least they claim not to accept it). This includes both creationists (46%) and evolutionary creationists - those who believe that God guided the process of evolution (32%). Only 15% of Americans accept the natural and scientific view of the origin of humans through biological evolution. Another 7% of Americans either have another view of the origin of humans or they did not share their opinions.
When we contrast Americans' views on the origin of humans based on how often they attend church (and therefore whether they are Christian), we see that increased church attendance correlates even more strongly with evolutionary creationism and especially strict creationism.
At least 86% of those who attend church almost weekly/monthly do not accept biological evolution. Of this 86%, 55% are strict creationists and 31% are evolutionary creationists. Only 10% of almost weekly/monthly church attendees accept biological evolution. Of those who attend church weekly, 92% do not accept biological evolution, with 67% of them being strict creationists and 25% being evolutionary creationists. Only 3% of weekly church attendees accept biological evolution.
Since 78% of Americans in general do not accept biological evolution, we can safely say that somewhere well over 80% of American Christians do not accept biological evolution. If we considered the acceptance of even non-scientific forms of evolution among American Christians while factoring in church attendance, it would have to be significantly less than the 47% of Americans in general who accept some form of evolution. This means that significantly less than half of American Christians don't accept even some form of evolution to explain the origin of humans. Additionally, about half of American Christians have a strictly creationist view of the origin of humans considering their increased church attendance and the baseline level of 46% creationist views for Americans in general.
[–]stmichael71 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
I find those statistics, if accurately representative, disturbing. I think the terms used for the various "creationist" beliefs to be a bit vague, but we can cede the "worst case scenario." But, again, one must be careful to differentiate "Christians" of different beliefs and, in my case, to differentiate Catholics as a whole. Catholics have authoritative teaching on such things, which makes our case somewhat unique. Finally, it needs to be pointed out that such beliefs, despite being widespread among US Christians, are not by that fact representative of Christianity nor of the "actual" intended meaning of Genesis. It merely means it is a widespread, though in my view deeply wrong, view.
[–]nosferatu_zodd 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
Ya, except/accept Darwin believed in God. All organized religions are based on metaphor. Adam is the archetype of man, Eve is the archetype of woman. The supreme being is all things, heaven is all peace and serenity and Satan is all pain and suffering. Symbols, deification, personification. You need to learn to use these tools to understand religion properly, when you do... you just might learn something to make your life better :)
[–]IDofES 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
I'm going to be a douche and say that is actually not what all Christians think. For example the Church of England and the Holy See accept evolution. So when you say "true and hilarious" you should be adding a disclaimer, "* for some denominations of christianity this is false and unfunny"!
[–]chellekacz 5 points6 points7 points 2 months ago
Are all biologists non-Christian? What would happen if there was a Christian biologist? Your theory would fall flat. Same goes with the other professions which you've compared with religion. Two completely different things.
Most religious scientists are deists, not theists, and therefore accept scientific truth. You are right though, that science and religion are two different things. However, evolutionary theory contradicts the teachings of Christianity, and theists, not deists, will reject science in face of their beliefs.
[–]whixer[S] -6 points-5 points-4 points 2 months ago
This isn't so much a theory as it is a statement that most empirical evidence contradicts Christian beliefs. If a Christian biologist understands and acknowledges evolution, then he/she is already contradicting the fundamentals of the Christian faith. If the Christian biologist does not "believe" in evolution, then he/she is not fit to be a biologist.
[–]Ogopog0 3 points4 points5 points 2 months ago
I know a person who is a biologist and a christian. he believes in both creationism and Evolution. he believes that humans did evolve from common ancestors but those ancestors were placed here or created by another being (god/aliens/timetravellers).
[–]FickleWalrus -1 points0 points1 point 2 months ago
If he's referring to the relatively recent (on a geologic timescale) common ancestor of humans and modern apes, then that's patently just as wrong as any other form of creationism. If he is simply replacing abiogenesis with a divine spark of life, at least that falls within the current bounds of our ignorance.
[–]thotk -3 points-2 points-1 points 2 months ago
he is agnostic.
No, sounds like he's creationist evolutionist.
basically exactly what an agnostic is, God created the universe (with consistent natural laws) and then stepped back allowing it to develop (evolve) on it's own.
That's not even close to what an agnostic is, take five seconds to look it up on Google and you'll see that you have no idea what you're talking about.
[–]thotk 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
woah hold your breathe there tiger, if I've offended sorry. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I know I've read of historical figures who presented that as there position and claimed to be agnostic. Anywho, I'm not going to waste time looking it up, but either way no worries, be happy!
[–]Pyromaniac605 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
So, rather than take five seconds to search for the actual definition of agnostic, a definition which you seem to have no knowledge of whatsoever, you decided to reply to my comment telling me that you're not going to "waste your time"?
[–]thotk -1 points0 points1 point 2 months ago
Exactly. Bingo. Bongo. Nail on the Head. Magic, woah! Why are you so grumpy grouch? Seriously - furthermore your also wrong, given that my definition may not be 'spot on' it's not difficult to extrapolate a definition to agnosticism which can support my position.
Agnostic: God is way beyond knowing with any certainty and in this way his existence (or lack thereof) becomes irrelevant - what is clear is that the world exists in a rational, consistent universe, one bound by the laws of the sciences.
NOW - is it so hard for you to believe that perhaps even a great many people who believed this (especially during times like the Enlightenment) would have taken the position that this universe was created to be this consistent, by say, a "God"?
Look fireboy, take a shower and get the coals out of your ass - your a douche and I don't feel like wasting time again.
[–]dagem 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago
Then shouldn't is say that? Identifying someone as a christian doesn't make them a fundamentalist or someone who doesn't believe in evolution.
That's like saying all atheist believe what /r/atheism believes.... there are christians who believe in god, but don't believe the bible is fact or meant to be taken word for word.
[–]Shainsworth 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
That's like saying all atheist believe what [1] /r/atheism believes....
Or like saying that all of r/atheism has the same beliefs...
[–]dagem 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
Exactly, /r/atheism complains when religion makes sweeping generalizations, then in the next breath make our own.
Of course, we use graphics and text pictures AND make it look nice... ;)
[–]Shainsworth 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
The idea that religion makes sweeping generalizations is itself a sweeping generalization, so you actually can do it in one breath. My point wasn't that over generalizations don't appear on r/atheism, it was that your description of r/atheism as homogenized entity with single set of beliefs is inaccurate. The same, of course, goes for religion.
[–]RepTarHunter 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
I personaly believe that god put the comman ancestors of all of the animals on the earth and then let them do their thing. I also believe the reason for us being so impure is due to inbreeding between Adam and eves children. When god says that he created humans in his image he meant Adam and eve and not us. And what do you mean by some Christians don't believe that the bible is fact? I mean it's kind of the whole basis for our religion.
[–]CoffeeMakesMeMath 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
With all due respect, RepTarHunter, your reading of the bible is more literal than many although you might not realize it. What dagem meant when he said that some Christians don't believe that the bible is fact is that many Christians read the bible in a more allegorical way--a religious reading full of parables in addition to factual events. For instance, I do not believe that there were two humans named Adam and Eve. I believe the line of where humanity as we know it began is much more blurred than that due to the slow nature of evolution.
The bible was told and re-told, written down and re-written, translated and re-translated, and edited and re-edited in it's many many editions. Is it not probably that the original meanings have been altered (purposely or not) after all the changes that have been made during it's long history?
Do you really believe every event in the bible occurred as written?
The teachings of Jesus Christ, should be the basis for Christianity, not the book about him. The bible was written by men, who supposedly knew him and had witnessed his greatness, in a time when if an event could not be explained it was "divine intervention".
[–]stmichael71 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
Evolution does not contradict the fundamentals of the Christian faith. It might contradict a very narrow and fundamentalist reading of Genesis 1 and 2, but it doesn't contradict Scripture if read in the sense that the authors intended it.
[–]FickleWalrus 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
While I agree with the broader sentiment, you should not designate yourself arbiter of 'what the authors intended,' especially given that the individuals in question had absolutely no reason to believe in anything other than a very young earth. Even if you believe that the bible was divinely inspired, the most you can say is that Evolution does not contradict scripture based on your own arbitrary interpretation of it; which is fine, but it is not clear why this position should be given more theological validity than the 'fundamentalist' version.
I don't claim to be the arbiter - I leave that to biblical scholars who, however, claim that there is good reason (fairly certain reasons, in fact) to believe that the original sense was not intended "literally" but instead allegorically. And, no, the authors of Genesis might have had good reasons to believe in an older earth and, in fact, make no statement about how old the earth is anyway. Further, in terms of Christian interpretation, the view that the earth is 6-7 thousand years old is a VERY recent interpretation of Genesis that really arises about the 19th century. The Church fathers and most theologians of the first 10 centuries held the dominant view from Greek science that the earth was much more than 6000 years old, while finding no contradiction to Genesis in this view. Thus, because I think the evidence of both scholarship and authoritative theologicial tradition holding that Genesis makes no claims about the "scientific" origin of species or the earth, I don't see any good reason to believe evolution would contradict Genesis.
if read in the sense that the authors intended it.
Do you mean almost exclusively as metaphor? I'm aware that people believe this (I used to be one of them), but I don't see how you can so casually infer some ulterior intention to the declarative tone in Genesis.
The tone of Genesis is not actually declarative, as a biblical scholar will tell you. It is intended to be an allegory (the genre is "mythic" allegory) which contains truths about God's creation of the universe, it's order, and the way in which human beings (as all things) were created good but revolted against their Creator freely (leading to propagation of sin throughout human history).
It is intended to be an allegory (the genre is "mythic" allegory)
That doesn't appear to be the consensus.
You haven't actually provided evidence for why you think Genesis should be interpreted as allegory, you've just asserted things.
[–]stmichael71 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
First, I was using shorthand for the type of genre - it's a bit more complex than merely mythic allegory, but I was making a point. The piece is a somewhat poetic prose narrative which intends to teach theological truth rather than scientific claims. This is, fundamentally, the consensus. While not a very scholarly piece, this account gives some of that literary analysis: http://www.calvin.edu/academic/religion/faculty/harlow/Creation%20according%20to%20Genesis.pdf. Murphy and Clifford (1990) are representative in their agreement with that kind of genre for Genesis 1 and 2. "Myth" and "mythic allegory" are old-fashioned terms for the genre here, but I thought it made the claims clearer. Second, Wikipedia's claims from Van Steers is not in conflict with my statements. Your reference from Van Steers refers to the WHOLE BOOK, not just the first two chapters. These first two chapters were probably written by the Priestly source and need to be interpreted along the lines of their proper genre.
[–]Shainsworth 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
The piece is a somewhat poetic prose narrative which intends to teach theological truth rather than scientific claims. This is, fundamentally, the consensus.
Sure, I can accept that, but I don't see how this supports the idea that the Christian creation myth is an allegory. The fact that the story is poetic doesn't mean that the author intended it to be an allegory for the evolutionary process. Also I don't see how someone could construct an allegory for something they didn't understand...
I never claimed it was an allegory "for the evolutionary process." I don't think it says anything directly about evolution because it was not intended to be scientific truth about human origins. That's my point. Instead, Gen. 1 and 2 is full of theological truths about human origins - like the truth that men were created good, in God's image.
But saying that God created man in one day is a claim to knowledge about the natural origins of humanity, and is not simply a theological claim like the Fall of Man. So if you believe that the book is divinely inspired and believe in evolution, you would have to either accept that Genesis is wrong in this area, or that it is a poetic representation of a natural event.
[–]CoffeeMakesMeMath 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
This is exactly right. I have grown so tired of the ignorant slander pointed in the direction of "Christians" when in fact where the problem really lies is in disagreeing with the fundamentalist reading of the Christian bible. I am a Christian like the rest of my family, but we would not begin to question evolution. In fact, my father, an ordained elder in the Presbyterian Church, is an evolutionary biologist.
[–]andy98725 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago
I'm a christian and I believe in evolution. Don't stereotype.
[–]byborne 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
No offense at all, but that's a thing I will never fully understand. How could you take two different stances? Like I said, I'm not trying to sound like jerk or anything, I would just like to know why you see yourself as a Christian when believing in evolution(even tough the catholic church is "believing" in it, I know).
[–]andy98725 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
I'm not sure how others deal with it, but I just view the creation as an analogy for how things evolved, which aligned perfectly.
Also, the catholic church... No. I'm against that because 1. It's a monopoly (essentially) and 2. Their bible is defined as what they find fit. There are some quotes by people like Jesus that they left out because they didn't like.
Wow. Didn't expect that to be bigger than the original point...
[–]fireflycities 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
Since this is reposted, I'll just repost my comment from the last time it went up:
I disagree with this post. Although this is consistent currently accepted scientific facts, the scientist in me won't let you just say THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED I'M RIGHT NOW YOU GO AWAY. Your point gets across just fine if you leave out the last panel. If you don't leave open the possibility that you were wrong, you can't learn.
There is certainly "proof" (I would prefer "observations" since they are mechanisms) of gravity and evolution, as well as an enormous amount of data and information that consistently support the evolution of humans as shown. However, unless you were taking data during the process of human evolution, you can't just state "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED."
It's not that hard to point out that fundamentalists who believe a giant sky-fairy created everyone exactly as they were and every scientist in the world is in on a giant conspiracy theory are wrong--you really don't need absolutes.
[–]jippykaye 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
All these repost is making r/atheism boring.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
I'm so tired of hearing this. Literally all Christians I know believe in evolution.
We have a name for those "other" people: Creationists. Do some fucking research.
[–]Daneruu 1 point2 points3 points 2 months ago
True, AND very very pretentious. And a repost. Go away.
[–]Nugg3tporn 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
Seen it
[–]TacoSalad33 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
Muslims don't believe in Evolution either, right? The correct display of this image would say Monotheists. Not Christians. I don't like the idea of Islam and Judaism getting a free card on this one.
[–]Draedgal 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
I looooooove the retoasted posts.
[–]Gaybe 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
this meme sucks and your picture is nowhere near hilarious. you basically said creationists believe something the rest of the world doesn't. you should do stand up.
[–]Llampshade 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
Fuck this. This is not happening again.
[–]daoudalqasir 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
there is actually a rabbi who in a commentary on the story of noah brings up a very similar theory to darwins theory on evolution this rabbi died about 10 years before darwin published his stuff and lived in Lithuania.
[–]hohuho 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
This isn't funny. Go away with your terrible reposts.
[–]endlegion 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
I'm going to be a douche here and point out that genetics is a subset of biology.
It would be more telling to point out that geneticists, botanists, zoologists, molecular biologists, cellular biologists, ecologists all agree while coming from different starting places.
And also while paleontology and archaeology have some overlap it is mostly paleontology which is concerned with evolution. Archaeology is the study of human activity from human artefacts. While this also includes other hominids Christians can hand wave past this by insisting the other hominids were also "created".
This is the image that keeps making creationists think evolution means we came from monkeys.
[–]AgricolaeAcres 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
Please stop this, I was browsing without being logged in and as a Christian, this offends me. Not me nor anybody else in the parish I belong to believes this. This insinuates that all Christians as a community are stupid people who have no regards to science, when we are taught evolution in our parish school. Please be considerate.
[–]shyguyfly 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
FALSE. We all know this is what really happened. http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/fsm.jpg
[–]amolad 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
What Darwin was describing is the physical vehicle of man. The "Creation of Man" in the Sistine Chapel depicts the moment man became "human"--i.e. the infusion of the soul, that which makes man different from animals. Even the hardcore fundies don't get that.
[–]whiskeyisneat 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
Those are all actually wrong.
/pedant
[–]Litande 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
This is a repost.
[–]FreeThinker76 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
It's good but I'd change it to say something like "What religious creationist/theists think happened". Why just pick on Christians?
[–]Princethor 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
That's not true and what's hilarious is your stupidity. First define the definition of Christians this is a very ignorant statement.
[–]R88SHUN 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
what does this have to do with gay rights?
[–]brootwarst 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
what creationists think happened
[–]parttimehuman -2 points-1 points0 points 2 months ago
Most creationists are actually hindu.
[–]chellekacz -1 points0 points1 point 2 months ago
So the theory of evolution is viewed as a truth. Ok fine. Now, evolution happens and humans are as far as it got!? Not to mention why haven't we evolved gills yet? Plenty of people study the ocean but they have to put on special gear to make it happen. Shouldn't things get BETTER with time if evolution is real? Shouldn't we have the ability to fly and be underwater ? Evolution seems really boring if this is where it stopped. I wonder how often primates formed gangs and sent out hits on other primates. Oh they didn't? So we have digressed? I may have dark hair and eat bananas but I certainly didn't derive from a primate. Put a monkey in a room and call me when it turns human.
Queue the hate messages that will now be thrown my way. Aaaaaand GO.
[–]IDofES -1 points0 points1 point 2 months ago
Obvious POE is obvious
[–][deleted] -17 points-16 points-15 points 2 months ago*
Richard Leakey
Gould, Stephen Jay
Mary Leakey
unsourced in Science, V.274, p.1841
Ian Tattersall
W. Howells
Malcolm Bowden
[–]analogkid1 4 points5 points6 points 2 months ago
Don't you get tired of copying and pasting your cherry-picked, minutia bullshit over and over again?
[–]CrazyTownBananaPantz 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago
Seriously. He's still going on about a missing link, as though evolution is a linear process with a clear path.
By the way... you're not... roguebow... are you?
[–][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 2 months ago
Are not most hominid fossils fragments of jaws and scraps of skulls?
Are not neanderthals and homo erectus racial variants of humans? If they aren't, why do I have a brow ridge like homo erectus?
Is it not true that there are no fossils showing human evolution?
[–]Raeil 2 points3 points4 points 2 months ago*
I don't usually respond to trolls that don't do their own research, but I'm going to make an exception for a single question (your final one to be specific). (Also, your quotes [as I've said elsewhere, I believe] are either quote-mined, and therefore appear to be attacking evolutionary theory as opposed to their actual intent and purpose which is to drive home a different point, or are out of date, and therefore are no longer accurate portrayals of the fossil record.)
Yes, it is completely false that there are no fossils showing human evolution. As a matter of fact, between Homo sapiens and our common ancestor with the chimp (though we can't say for certain that a single species IS the ancestor, we can say it was related to a number of things) there are the following fossils, which clearly show a common ancestry over 4.5 million years: H. neanderthalensis, H. heidelbergensis, H. erectus, H. ergaster, Australopithecus habilis, A. africanis, A. afarensis, A. anamensis. Following these, there exists a small 1.5 million year gap in which there are no clear intermediaries, and it is where paleontologists will eventually find the transition from bipedality to upright walking. At 6 million years, we find our most ancient humanid fossil (which is around the time our line diverged from chimps) Sahlenthropus tchadensis (of which we've only got the skull, but the position of the spinal cord hole, among other things puts it on our side of the divergence rather than the chimps).
Each of the above species lived contemporaneously with the one directly to its left and to its right for a short time, but the majority of their existence was lived without the others living at the same time. At the very most we have several fossils of these species, and at the very least we have a skull and some leg/arm bones, which is enough (with biology's help) to determine the features we need to observe for using the fossil record as further evidence of evolution by natural selection.
As a side note, the fossil record could vanish tomorrow (from our memories and records as well), and it wouldn't affect the fact that evolution by natural selection is verified by a multitude of other scientific disciplines, so continue trying to disprove the fossil record. It won't help you even if you manage to do so. (Source for the information contained in this post: Jerry A. Coyne's book "Why Evolution is True" from pages 211 to 229)
EDIT: Also, Marvin Lubenow's little tirade there is completely unfounded. His was the only quote that looked like it could be non-quote-mined and not from a time before the fossil record was updated. Every point he makes, though, is completely inaccurate, and his credentials as a "Creationist Professor" with a Master's in Theology and a Major in anthropology does not give him any authority whatsoever to decree things about the fossil record.
[–]dpiston 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
No,........well that was easy
[–]analogkid1 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
You really need to read some science books. At least, watch a few discovery channel shows if that's more your speed.
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