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And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter. - Thomas Jefferson (imgur.com)

submitted ago by darwins_hoya

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[–]Jsemi09 8 points9 points ago

Jefferson was a Christian Deist. He believed in the word of Jesus, but not all the insane religiously stuff.

In another letter he directly calls himself a Christian and decries the Calvinist sect for ruining the word of Jesus. His Jefferson Bible still retained and made references to Heaven and Hell, Noah's Ark, the Second Coming, some other acts, and specifically it mentioned God multiple times. But, he did rewrite a freaking Bible. If he didn't believe in it, why would anyone rewrite a Bible to fit their liking?

[–]Atheose 1 point2 points ago

Wait, I bought/read the Jefferson Bible a few months back and don't remember any of the references to Heaven/Hell, Noah's Ark or the Second Coming.

Regardless, you can still call him a "non-believer" with regards to the phrase "In God We Trust", since Deists believe in a hands-off God.

[–]Raijer 1 point2 points ago

You can't really call Jefferson a Deist. Like you said, he very much believed in the moral teachings of Jesus, but he also believed in a creator God who continued to influence the world - which is antithetical to deist belief. He was certainly influenced by a lot of the deist thought and philosophy of his day, I'll grant, but he certainly did not believe in a "hands off" god that the deists insisted upon.

[–]darwins_hoya[S] 1 point2 points ago

But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true light, as no imposter himself, but a great reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all his doctrines. I am a materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it. -Thomas Jefferson tl;dr TJ was materialist and deist, not a christian

[–]JesterAzazel 1 point2 points ago

I checked it out and Jefferson did refer to himself as a Christian.. There's a wiki on him and religion and there's a citation with the statement.

That kind of sucks, too, I was going to use this..

[–]reaganveg 0 points1 point ago

If he didn't believe in it, why would anyone rewrite a Bible to fit their liking?

What? If he did believe in it, why would he rewrite it? That would piss off Yahweh for sure.

[–]lactosefree1 13 points14 points ago

Irony? I'm pretty sure that's a nickel. So, nickely?

[–]1zero2two8eight 3 points4 points ago

Nickels are 75% copper.

[–]lactosefree1 0 points1 point ago

To be fair, they were mostly nickel in their creation, when the mint was founded, but then switched to copper when it was discovered to be better for the job.

[–]dispellado 12 points13 points ago

Ehhh.. Wasn't Jefferson a deist?

[–]Archangelus 2 points3 points ago

True, this jab assumes "In God We Trust" refers to a Christian God. I still don't understand how people can associate America with freedom of religious oppression at its very core and then oppress religion and choose a supreme power to force upon others just like England's leader did at the time.

[–]RickRay1 11 points12 points ago

Ye, I believe Jefferson was a deist. God created the universe and then said, "Deal with it you idiots."

[–]atroxodisse 2 points3 points ago

TIL God was a teenager.

[–]TimeKillerSP 2 points3 points ago

We also inscribe "Liberty" next to the portrait of a slave owner. i guess the less impressive of the two.

[–]josshhhh 13 points14 points ago

Thomas Jefferson was not an atheist.

[–]notdiscovery 9 points10 points ago

He edited his own version of the bible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

[–]whitetzor 14 points15 points ago

He was a "non-believer" in Christianity....it never said atheist.

Being a deist, he didn't put his trust in God.

[–]Let_the_Goat_Out 1 point2 points ago

I might be wrong but I don't think he was that invested in a creator in his life. He did recognize a "higher being" and I think that was that. Most of his animosity was displaced towards the nature of the Church (and the greedy nature of men in power). You should read Memorial and Remonstrance (Great book in which he first coined the metaphorical "wall of separation between church and state"). Please correct me if I am wrong. Knowledge is power :p

[–]Raijer 0 points1 point ago

Thomas Jefferson was indeed a steadfast Christian, albeit one with his own flair. He and John Adams traded hundreds of letters later in their lives which survive today, and religion was one of the main subjects. We actually have a pretty good record on how both Adams and Jefferson felt about the subject. Jefferson placed a great deal of importance and dedicated a great deal of writing on the moral teachings of Jesus, but but he completely disregarded the supernatural/miraculous side of the story. He didn't rewrite the bible so much as simply edit out any mystical-magical miracle stuff.

Anyway, excellent response. There's a lot of people here insisting that Jefferson was a deist, which is an totally false.

[–]dangling_participles 1 point2 points ago

Do you have any idea where this quote is from?

[–]notdiscovery 4 points5 points ago

Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, from Monticello, April 11, 1823; Lester J. Cappon, ed., The Adams-Jefferson Letters: The Complete Correspondence, Chapel Hill and London: University of North Carolina Press, 1987, pp. 591-594.

[–]dangling_participles 0 points1 point ago

Awesome thanks! I try not to reuse quotes without a pretty good citation. I've been burned a couple times from passing on misatributed quotes from r/atheism.

[–]TheLocNessmonstar 1 point2 points ago

Well, if you don't have tree fiddy, can I have that nickel?

[–]Philile 0 points1 point ago

Let me know when Judaism dies out.

[–]Senor_Wilson 0 points1 point ago

FALSE. COINS ARE STAMPED DUMMY.

[–]Commander_Uhltes 0 points1 point ago

What? Why would you stamp a dummy to make a coin? That makes no sense.

[–]Senor_Wilson 2 points3 points ago

Metal is expensive and so are commas. Jeez dude.

[–]nzhamstar 0 points1 point ago

Isn't Minerva the name of the god that appears at the end of Assassins Creed 2?

[–]FoxifiedNutjob 0 points1 point ago

I had reason to do this research myself lately: look for non-biblical evidence of Jesus' existence. Remember, to be conclusive, we want something outside the Bible & Gospels, to act as independent confirmation that Jesus existed. This is like getting a second medical opinion.

And, I could not find any reference on the internet to any historical document (outside of the Gospels) which directly referred to Jesus. There are historical documents that refer to early Christians, in the decades after Jesus' time. But, there is no historical evidence that Jesus existed; noone apart from the Gospel writers wrote about him. Not the Romans (Pontius Pilate's administrators, maybe?), not any Jewish historians of the time, noone. If he made as big an impression as he's supposed to have, then someone would have noticed - and written about him.

The only source that the experts have to work from is the Gospels. And one source does not make for reliable research.

[–]atroxodisse 0 points1 point ago

In the interest of honesty, the New Testament was assembled from multiple sources.

[–]FoxifiedNutjob -1 points0 points ago

The only mention of Jesus Christ is in the Gospels so I don't know what your point is.

While it may come as a surprise to many, it has been known for centuries that the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. Instead, these are "traditional" names given to anonymously-written works over a hundred years after they were written. This much is not controversial among biblical scholars. What is controversial is the attempt to assign actual authorship to these anonymous works, and to place them in the proper historical, social, cultural, and theological context. The Gospels were not eyewitness accounts, or even second-hand accounts, of Jesus' time. Rather, they are products of complicated theological advocacy written generations after Jesus' time. Each Gospel is shown to reflect the author(s) own theological interests and agenda, as each sought to advance their own vision of the emerging religion.

[–]atroxodisse -1 points0 points ago

Some of the books in the New Testament have authors and are obviously letters written by the authors. Paul, prominently figured in the New Testament and he mentions Jesus. He claims to have met his spirit. Timothy is a letter written by Paul.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle

[–]FoxifiedNutjob 0 points1 point ago

You downvote but have no logical rebuttal?

Why don't you present what you feel is the best piece of evidence for the biblical jesus? Actually, one of the main reasons I denounced my Christian faith is because of quite the opposite, I can't find one single shred of evidence for the jesus of the bible. Not one artifact or eyewitness account. Not even in the Bible.

Can you help?

No more debates filled with fancy semantics, just back up your statements with actual scientific evidence.

[–]atroxodisse -1 points0 points ago

You sir are reading far too much into my comments. I'm an agnostic atheist who has never had any faith whatsoever. I'm merely pointing out the facts. I down voted because you were simply wrong. Jesus is mentioned outside of the gospels.

[–]FoxifiedNutjob -1 points0 points ago

Fair enough, even though saying you are an "agnostic atheist" is completely contradictory.

Anyhoo, I will still play along. Where is Jesus Christ mentioned outside the Gospels again?

Maybe I missed something.

[–]FoxifiedNutjob 0 points1 point ago

downvote with no rebuttal = cop-out

[–]DeLuxPuck 0 points1 point ago

DEAR SIR, -- The wishes expressed, in your last favor, that I may continue in life and health until I become a Calvinist, at least in his exclamation of `mon Dieu! jusque à quand'! would make me immortal. I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism.

Same Letter...

[–]Snarfleez 0 points1 point ago

I actually researched this exact quote rather recently.
At first glance, it may seem that Jefferson wishes for a day when Christian doctrine is regarded a fable, much like Jupiter. In truth, Jefferson sought to admonish those who distort the message of the Bible to serve their own needs. In fact, he actually refers to Jesus as "the most venerated reformer of human errors".

Full quote lists below:

"The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors."

-- Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11 1823.

[–]Abrahemp 0 points1 point ago

The only known case where redditors support getting "nickel back"

[–]anarcho-fox 0 points1 point ago

Jefferson was a uniterian/deist

[–]darwins_hoya[S] -1 points0 points ago

He was a deist so a non-believer in Christianity, and the christian god is the god suggested by America's national motto, so still ironic.

[–]ConnorMH 8 points9 points ago

Or nickel-onic.

[–]1zero2two8eight 1 point2 points ago

Copper-onic.

[–]ConnorMH 1 point2 points ago

Silver-onic!

[–]Jokrmein -1 points0 points ago

Reaching.

[–]underoni -1 points0 points ago

Learn some history before reposting nonsense - Me

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