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top 200 commentsshow all 340

[–]Deradius 359 points360 points ago

No, he didn't.

Even in the event that Jillette's hypothesis is supported by the experiment, we can suppose a silent, uninvolved God that allows the re-establishment to proceed without intervention.

That might not seem rational or parsimonious, but parsimony is a rule of thumb, and non-parsimonious explanations are possible - particularly when you involve entities with free will (which we might presume God to have).

To be clear, this isn't an argument in favor of theism. Simply a criticism of your assessment of Jillette's commentary as sound experimental design.

[–]LikeDays 126 points127 points ago

also a repost.

[–]flukz 82 points83 points ago

This is beyond repost. I haven't been here long and I see this weekly.

[–]tatumc 10 points11 points ago

This just in: Carol Shelby died today.

[–]flukz 14 points15 points ago

insert the pink pokemon thing

[–]AnotherClosetAtheist 7 points8 points ago

but just the top-left portion of it

[–]flukz 7 points8 points ago

I guess /b/ is better.

[–]Colemanimation 2 points3 points ago

DENIED

[–]pink_play-doh 2 points3 points ago

Jiggly Puff.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

i think he's talkin about kirby bro

[–]RBeck 0 points1 point ago

I was just at the 50th anniversary banquet for the company last month. He was too sick to make it. Sucks. :(

[–]ketchy_shuby 2 points3 points ago

And that is why the premise is false, reposts would prevent any knowledge about religon being lost forever.

[–]jackhawkian 0 points1 point ago

I've been checking this board regularly for almost a year and I've never seen it

[–]punkyjewster03 0 points1 point ago

Requisite, ubiquitous retort stating that, "hey not everybody has seen this yet. It was new to me. Because, ya know. we should at least weekly repost everything that's ever been posted on Reddit in case someone missed something.

[–]OmegaArcadia 3 points4 points ago

How parsimonious.

[–]SaysThatsARepost 6 points7 points ago

Hey, quit doing my job!

[–]builderb 3 points4 points ago

Well if you stopped slacking and actually did your job he wouldn't have to.

[–]SaysThatsARepost 1 point2 points ago

"That's a repost."

There, happy?

[–]EntScents 0 points1 point ago

Also a repost in the sense that Carl Sagan mentions something very similar to this in one of the Cosmos episodes. I think it's the last episode.

[–]vestigial_shibboleth 3 points4 points ago

Penn's argument has nothing to do with proving or disproving the existence of "God" (something that is, in a strict sense, empirically unknown). It is about establishing the truth value of religion versus the truth value of science. From a strictly empirical point of view, science has a more legitimate claim to knowledge of God than religion does simply because so much of religion rejects empiricism.

If all humanity were destroyed by, say, an asteroid, and millions of years later another intelligent species emerged, we have every expectation that they would be driven to exactly reconstruct the basis of science as we know it today. That is, in fact, the very criteria we would use to denote them as intelligent.

[–]willkydd 18 points19 points ago

  1. there is no attempt at a proof for the statement being made
  2. the burden of proof should be on the one making the statement, so there should have been a proof offered
  3. the 'charm' of the argument is exactly that the reader wants to believe the statement is true.

TL;DR: this is the kind of atheism that really is like a religion.

[–]Z0idberg_MD 6 points7 points ago

Getting caught up in proving/disproving the existence of good and "the burden of proof" is really less important than the idea that follows.

If you leave "There is no god" out of his statement, it's much more a logical and near scientifically accurate statement. In all probability an isolated human colony wouldn't be able to replicate Christianity. If you took a group of children and put them on an island and let them breed for 50 years, they would in all likelihood not come up with an exact duplicate of Christianity. And since this statement is most probable, it is most true.

And in this sense, is definitely not like a religion.

(Probability is the best way to assign a truth value. Nothing is certain, not even our reality. In this sense, all truth is based on how certain we can be of something. How probable it is. This is especially true with maths. There is no such thing as "number" and every equation is a theoretical". However, each time we test them and they work, we can be more certain that they are "true".)

[–]carleslireis 2 points3 points ago

Regarding your middle paragraph...

Yes, if people had no knowledge of Jesus, they wouldn't be able to replicate a religion that includes cross and resurrection and the other principles of Christianity. Similarly, if a planet fell into a black hole, we wouldn't be able to reconstruct that it existed. This is a truth for all events, not just religion. However, since western religions tend to be heavily based on cultural narratives and defining events, it makes sense that they wouldn't be reconstructable without access to the histories they are currently built on.

[–]willkydd 1 point2 points ago

Summing up there are two sentences: [1] "Christianity would not be replicated by isolated human colony" and [2] "Science would be replicated by isolated human colony".

My main problem is that there is no attempt at proving [1] or [2], except by 'gut-feeling'. Gut feeling just so happens to vary from person to person: if you ask Christians they may disagree. Without proof, your yea and their nay is on equal footing, like it or not.

My other problem is that I actually believe [2] is false. Our current 'science' and all possible past and future 'sciences' are just approximations of reality, not the ultimate truth religion claims to have. Therefore I am skeptical about our current understanding being 'special' in any way and think random trials of isolated human civilizations would discover potentially different 'sciences' from our own. I don't know how different and if different enough that we wouldn't call it science anymore. But again, we best not make statements without even attempting to prove them in a logical way. I choose to say I have no clue if [2] is true or false, while my guess would be it's false.

[–]Karma13x 11 points12 points ago

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what "science" is and that you are confusing it with "field of science". Yeah, sure, in the isolated human colony they would call math "bugaloo" and astronomy "kwabali" and biology as "evilution" but they would eventually discover all the same scientific principles such as counting/ordinality, gravity or Mendelian genetics that we have. Using the same approach that we have developed towards science...hypothesize, experiment, obtain data, interpret and deduce these principles. And none of these are "approximations" of reality...they are measured and objectively proven.

[–]Z0idberg_MD 4 points5 points ago

Exactly...

[–]Z0idberg_MD 5 points6 points ago

Also, he didn't mean our method of science would be replicated, but the basic principles of math and science exit whether we recognize them or not. They're readily observable if you know where and how to look.

[–]Z0idberg_MD 5 points6 points ago

In what way would a reconstruction of Christianity in a bubble be probable? If I said "there was no way superman would fall out of the sky" I don't think a fair criticism would be "you're not trying to prove it and it's just a gut feeling since you can't".

We most certainly can distinguish from what is probable and possible. And the story of John smith and his inability to reproduce his own texts never mind a group of people with no knowledge of the bible makes it much more likely than not a reproduction in a vacuum would be quite impossible.

Why don't children on the great Chinese plateau come up with a comprehensive account of Christianity? I guess the question to ask is: why would it be likely to happen, not why wouldn't it be. And that's where you get the improbability of reproduction. The same with superman falling out of the sky.

[–]DownvotesOwnPost 2 points3 points ago

Additionally, math did indeed independently arise on this planet, as well as astronomy and other sciences. No one "invented" counting.

[–]willkydd 0 points1 point ago

agreed, but then you're only saying God probably doesn't exist.

[–]Revvy 2 points3 points ago

Christianity wasn't recreated by isolated colonies in the past.

[–]pour_some_sugar 1 point2 points ago

  1. there is no attempt at a proof for the statement being made

Quite right. Reality can be measured in different ways to give different results. If you measure light one way, it consists of particles. If you measure it another way, it shows up as waves. One would think light has to be one way or another, but no, it is both at the same time.

So given that science has already shown us that the same thing can be measured different ways and appear entirely different and even opposite, how is it true that a new science might not come up with new and different ways of measuring the world with different underlying assumptions and therefore different results?

How would that be the same science?

[–]Improvised0 2 points3 points ago

I agree.

Though your point on free will reminded me of an argument that Spinoza made that I'm surprised does not get more attention in arguments for/against God--at least in re: to arguments about a Judeo-Christian god. The argument in it's simple form: An omnipotent and omniscient god cannot have free will. Free will, if it really exists, requires an agent to have desires. Desires require an agent to lack something/anything. How can an omnipotent and omniscient god lack anything?

I don't know. It makes sense to me. Though it could simply be confirmation bias on my part.

[–]Deradius 2 points3 points ago

I just clapped my hands. Not because I was lacking anything, but because I desired to.

[–]sytar6 2 points3 points ago

No, you clapped to prove him wrong. You wanted to prove him wrong to provide validation for your ego. That's what you were lacking: validation. I am posting this comment for identical reasons and those that respond will also post for that same reason.

[–]Deradius 0 points1 point ago

Let me rephrase.

It is possible for me to clap for no other reason than that I wish to clap, and all that I am lacking is a lack of having clapped.

The capacity (power) to do something is not the same as having done it.

[–]Neurokeen 0 points1 point ago

You 'desired' a change in state brought about by clapping your hands.

The Spinozan argument here is a really kind of a throwback to arguments that a perfect entity must be unchanging, though with a subtle twist that suits Spinoza's psychology of passions and desires. Unlike a lot of philosophical arguments that are more natural-language in style, Spinoza's 'geometric' style of argument makes this kind of simple formulation almost impossible, and almost always makes it sound more simple than it really is.

[–]Deeviant 2 points3 points ago

Hmm, but it seems like your angle is "a god" might still exist. But I think it is interesting to note that a particular god, the christian god, has been defined in a particular way.

For instance, take Psalm 46:10 "Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth". That makes it pretty clear that God will be known and "exalted" through out the world.

In disproving the christian god, the OP's assessment of Jillette's commentary is spot on.

To be clear, this isn't an agrument in favor of atheism. Simply a criticism of your assessment of the OP's assessment of Jillette's commentary as sound experimental design.

[–]c0pypastry 1 point2 points ago

we can suppose a silent, uninvolved God that allows the re-establishment to proceed without intervention.

So deism instead of theism?

[–]teleugeot 1 point2 points ago

Cheers for actually applying real philosophical rhetoric in a quasi-philosophical poo poo thread.

[–]Gltmastah 1 point2 points ago

ELI5 please

[–]Deradius 2 points3 points ago

Even if the same religion doesn't spring up again, that doesn't prove that there isn't a God, because he might be there but not be doing anything for whatever reason.

[–]tineyeit 0 points1 point ago

This would be a possible proof that none of the current religions are correct. If all current religions were wiped away, and a new society was formed, a new religion would spring up with new attributes. This religion would have new, varying attributes (it could be Christian-like, Hinduism-like, Celtic-like, Aztec-like etc for every possible religion we have, or even entirely separate) that made it a new religion. However, that doesn't prove mean there's no god, just that nobody has been right about it yet.

[–]nblsavage 1 point2 points ago

It's certainly a good argument against most current religions tho.

[–]Like_A_Gentleman 1 point2 points ago

To put it simply, this is only true if you start with the assumption that God does not exist.

[–]schellshock 1 point2 points ago

Also, not an argument for theism, but if we executed the experiment, and the new people conceived of a deity, much like ours, you probably still wouldn't be prepared to admit God exists based solely on that evidence. Therefore, I agree with Deradius, this is not a proof, nor denial of God's existence.

[–]Grays42 2 points3 points ago

Came here to say this. Well put.

I would further add that any such proposed experiment would necessarily be flawed, for the same reason: unfalsifiability. There is no way to "prove" the nonexistence of an entity that is not evident, even if you manage to successfully address and discard the numerous and unfalsifiable anecdotes that invariably get trotted out in these discussions.

The most you can say is that it is not reasonable to accept the proposition that some non-evident entity exists. That's why under no circumstances will a good counter-apologist accept the burden of proof for non-existence. It's not our responsibility, and it isn't possible.

If the claimant tries to say we have to, the appropriate response is to patiently explain that if the default position must be atheism, or the claimant would also have the burden to disprove the existence of all other god claims.

The counter response is usually "but it's so obvious that God exists, I shouldn't have to prove why false gods don't exist." You he explain that if it's obvious, then it should be easy to present evidence for the positive claim that God exists.

(I've been to this rodeo a few times.)

[–]jtfine 1 point2 points ago

It couldn't disprove the existence of Gods, but it could prove that people make up Gods, which is evidence that they made up all Gods.

[–]willkydd 1 point2 points ago

God could theoretically exist even if people make him up, independently of his existence. There's no way to disprove religion logically, just like there's no way to prove a submarine doesn't swim.

[–]d13nt_ban_me_again 2 points3 points ago

There's no way to disprove religion logically

It is possible to disprove religion logically to a reasonable degree because religion makes assertions. For example, the universe created in a few days, talking snakes, etc.

The philosophical question about the existence of god has nothing to do with religion. Even if religion didn't exist, questions about god would persist.

[–]willkydd 0 points1 point ago

Agreed, whenever religion makes logical matter-of-fact statements those are disprovable/falsifiable. Most core statements in a religion are metaphysical though and cannot be disproved by logic.

E.g. there's a god which is incomprehensible to human beings etc.

[–]jtfine 1 point2 points ago

Not proof, but evidence.

[–]iRun800 0 points1 point ago

Also, in order to wipe out all traces of religion for this "experiment" to work, the religious would have to agree to halt their teachings in order to prove that they are wrong; I don't see that happening.

[–]RepostThatShit 0 points1 point ago

More importantly, Penn Jillette did not devise this idea.

[–]altification 0 points1 point ago

whoa whoa whoa, slow down soldier. What experiment and why would we suppose that? It's a valid assumption if you were testing for the existence of any god but I'm not sure that's what he's saying. He could be saying that but isn't. In fact it seems much more likely he's talking about disproving existing religions, which most are hosted by jealous gods with very involved prophets.

Still an assumption on my part but seems much more likely based upon the limited information provided. It seems perfectly rational if you were testing for the existence of any god in any environment but parsimonious only if you made it that way. The use of that word just seems odd here. Parsimonious.. it doesn't even sound very nice. parsimonious..

[–]duhmark 0 points1 point ago

I have you tagged as "best teacher ever." I have no idea why, but you are doing your part to reinforce that.

[–]Deradius 2 points3 points ago

Could be this.

Thanks for your support!

[–]Salamandastron 0 points1 point ago

Except that all the major world religions specify that their way is the only one, and that their God will always speak to the chosen people. Based on the bible, the Christian god would certainly be present after the world's destruction. Hell, he'd be the one doing it.

[–]teslas_notepad 0 points1 point ago

I don't think he was even suggesting an experiment, just that religion is made up by humans, and science is discovered by them.

[–]eloquentnemesis 0 points1 point ago

I'm willing to try it anyway.

[–]ieatglue44 0 points1 point ago

I called this "Jillette's Wager" a while back. It got downvoted, I think. I can't really remember. It's not a sound experiment, but it is an interesting thought-experiment. It doesn't, as OP suggested, disprove the existence of a god, but it sure would prove to theists whether we can know anything about any possible gods or whether we can't.

[–]fat_puppies 0 points1 point ago

Also, Penn's argument doesn't rule out the possibility that it is impossible for human beings to witness or experience any kind of god or higher power.

If this were true, then it is quite obviously clear that humans will inevitably develop different ideas and imagined beings of higher power over and over since it is impossible for us to discover the one true answer to the question.

[–]scranston 0 points1 point ago

The biggest flaw I see in this argument is if you replace the word "religion" with "history", you get the same result. Yet no one would argue that history isn't true and didn't happen, but we can't recreate it if ALL record of history is erased (that would include physical evidence).

[–]Illivah 0 points1 point ago

So, in other words, if you throw away all versions of god that have any meaning at all, then the idea of god can still exist.

[–]RogueEyebrow 50 points51 points ago

Disproving Religious Doctrine =\= Disproving God.

[–]Illivah 1 point2 points ago

yup, however I doubt that the concept of god has much meaning without religious doctrine.

[–]Grauzz 0 points1 point ago

Agreed. Without the rules that define their God, there might as well be no God.

[–]pornplexed 0 points1 point ago

[–]M0b1u5 8 points9 points ago

Not an experiment by definition - because no control is possible.

[–]dagem 0 points1 point ago

I read that in Mordin Solus's voice... too much ME3 for me, I think....

[–]johntheChristian 36 points37 points ago

Argument is flawed because it presumes the atheistic point of view from the beginning, classic begging the question.

If there is a God who wants us to know about him, as theism argues, then he would obviously do what was necessary to reveal himself to the new society. Christians/Jews/Muslims don't believe that we found God through discovery, but rather that he reached out to us and showed himself to us.

I am actually a fan of Penn Jillette, but this is not one of his better moments.

[–]carleslireis 8 points9 points ago

This needs more upvotes. Western religions are based on divine revelation, just like western science is based on experimentation and inbuilt logic. In both cases, the entire system exists because of those things. If science can assume (as it rightly does) that experimentation and logic lead to the rediscovery scientific theories and truth, then a religious person could assume that if there is a God and divine revelation, then it will lead to Christianity and the other religions being rebuilt.

[–]rydan 0 points1 point ago

It seems odd that a god would reestablish several differing, incompatible, and false religions.

[–]whitetzor 2 points3 points ago

I read his statement as it wouldn't happen, because he is claiming there is no god to do so. Maybe that's just me

[–]johntheChristian 0 points1 point ago

That's exactly the point.

[–]Scadilla 1 point2 points ago

Should he have started out with "There probably is"?

[–]reddell 0 points1 point ago

But if he did intervene and pass on his knowledge again then it would prove god. I thought that was part of the experiment, either he shows up again or he doesn't.

[–]MarinePrincePrime 1 point2 points ago

holy shit. I think op has found the repost that almost always gets upvoted :o

[–]elconquistador1985 0 points1 point ago

There's probably a good sized list of reposts that when posted to their respective subreddits once a month with a certain title will bring karma.

[–]Singspike 9 points10 points ago

This doesn't prove anything. If God did exist, it would be within his power to make the same thing happen again. This would only work if he indeed does not exist, and assuming what you're trying to prove is absolutely unscientific.

[–]gibnihtmus 0 points1 point ago

yeah but if we exist now why do we have multiple religions believing in that same God but different beliefs. Don't you think he would tell them what to believe in

[–]carleslireis 1 point2 points ago

One might say that just as people looking at the same experiments, the same science, might come to different conclusions, people looking at the same religious evidence would come to different conclusions too. I think we can all agree that humans are far from perfect and do not have perfect access to the absolute truths of the universe. As such, we will disagree on what is the truth and what isn't. Even science is not immune to this unfortunate state of affairs.

[–]ThatIsMyHat 0 points1 point ago

Maybe because some people got it wrong.

[–]fatdonkay337 2 points3 points ago

If I see this one more time.

[–]user54 0 points1 point ago

It is like nobody has seen it here before. WTF?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

Reposted many times, but I don't care. It's fucking awesome.

[–]richlittle69 2 points3 points ago

god isn't real, walmart is cool, recycling and handicap parking spaces are bullshit -penn "mach 3" gillette

[–]RPGillespie6 6 points7 points ago

Mormons believe that if the true religion of God is completely wiped out, he'll eventually restore it to the way it was through a new prophet.

[–]whitetzor 1 point2 points ago

But only reading it through a magical hat.

[–]paradoxperspective 4 points5 points ago

If you wiped out the record of history would we be able to know exactly what came before us?

[–]whatdupdoh 5 points6 points ago

So what youre saying is if we got rid of all the history on world war 2 we would never again know that a world war 2 happened but that doesnt mean that it didnt actually happen.

[–]polarbear2217 3 points4 points ago

1984

[–]carleslireis 1 point2 points ago

But it does mean that a cultural narrative that is affected by things like WWII wouldn't be able to be reconstructed. That's the key to western religions like Christianity, which are heavily steeped in defining historical events, rather than general principles.

[–]LucifersCounsel 0 points1 point ago

We found out about the dinosaurs 65 million years after they were wiped out.

[–]keyree 1 point2 points ago

Uh... how do you propose we perform this experiment? Just casually wipe out all human civilization?

[–]twilightmorphine 1 point2 points ago

What? If you think this is a great experiment to prove this thesis, then you know nothing about science.

[–]azyzzbrah 1 point2 points ago

This should be posted in /r/gay just to fuck with all the idiots who post things that should be there to /r/atheism.

[–]shahini 1 point2 points ago

Ignores underdetermination theories and anti-realism.

[–]NortheFall 1 point2 points ago

His experiment to see how many redditors will repost this is still ongoing...

[–]AshranPewter 1 point2 points ago

This is an argument against religion, not the existence of god.

[–]LucifersCounsel 0 points1 point ago

No, it is an argument against the independent reality of a god. If humans were wiped out, so would all trace of god.

Nothing in nature points to the existence of a god.

[–]KserDnB 1 point2 points ago

i love how he compares religion to science.

Like a true idiot trying to make a point to stupid people.

[–]sarcasmsosubtle 1 point2 points ago

Every time that I see this post I can't help but think of how wrong it is. Religion is inevitably built around certain archetypes, so if all religion were wiped out, it would almost definitely arise again as something very similar to what we have already seen. It would likely start with multiple gods each having his/her own domain, and eventually evolve into a monotheistic faith built around a patriarchal figure. Science, on the other hand, is largely iterative; each advance helps pave the way for the next advance. Small changes in definitions could have huge impacts on how future discoveries come about, and changes in global circumstances could necessitate scientific advancements in different fields than what we have seen historically. We could very easily end up with a field of medicine that is far more advanced than what we have today, but still fight military conflicts with steel bladed weapons, or develop nuclear weapons long before we develop any form of sustained flight. The odds that our entire body of knowledge in science, built again from the ground up, would ever closely resemble what we have today are relatively small. Knowing what we know about the psychology of religious thought, I would say that those odds are much smaller than the odds that religion, rebuilt from the ground up, would eventually resemble what we have today. But I think that that speaks more highly of science than what Penn is trying to say with this quote.

[–]i_flip_sides 0 points1 point ago

That's not necessarily true. First of all, "science" and "technological progress" are closely linked, but not the same thing. It's more of a feedback loop. Improved knowledge of Chemistry leads to better medicine. Decades of medical research improve our knowledge of Chemistry. Etc.

Secondly, technological progress tends to happen in stages, which major advancements paving the way for future work. To borrow your examples, it's unlikely that we'd advance to or beyond modern medicine and Chemistry without discovering gunpowder. And nuclear weapons are useless without a long-range delivery system, so it's unlikely they would be practical (and therefore developed) until we had sustained flight. None of the modern world would exist without the discovery of machinery and the ensuing industrial revolution.

Most of our technology comes from war, and humans are hardwired for conflict, so almost all of our advances in weaponry are all but guaranteed to reoccur.

Sure, things wouldn't be exactly the same. It's possible re-running the simulation might yield slightly better discoveries in one area, and slightly less optimal discoveries in another. We might have a better formula for gunpowder, or a better dermal delivery system for drugs. But fundamentally, I think the world would be very similar.

[–]MauiWowieOwie 4 points5 points ago

Jillette, the best a man can get.

[–]Brendanbarone 2 points3 points ago

Jillette 2016...

[–]ANewMachine615 15 points16 points ago

"This entertainer agrees with me on something! He is the best candidate for elective office!"

[–]Scadilla 2 points3 points ago

I've voted for candidates for less.

[–]Darkstrategy 1 point2 points ago

I wouldn't say Penn is a politician, but he's extremely intelligent in all aspects. Perhaps they've heard of him elsewhere? I knew of Penn far before /r/atheism picked him up.

I'd put him on genius level tbh.

[–]greatatdrinking 0 points1 point ago

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." -Hitch

[–]ItWasInTheFAQ 5 points6 points ago

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." -Sagan

Checkmate...

[–]LucifersCounsel 2 points3 points ago

That's actually bullshit.

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. It doesn't prove it.

[–]arcticfox 1 point2 points ago

No it isn't because absence of evidence can be because nobody has been looking.

[–]Dokterrock 1 point2 points ago

King me.

[–]jakedemian 0 points1 point ago

I lose!

[–]TheMagicStik 1 point2 points ago*

Most religions are really similar and maybe the names would be different if we went back and did it all again, but the general theme would be the same.

  1. The god wouldn't give out freebies

  2. If something really bad or really good happens it was god

  3. Events that his main doctrine will tell of will be very easy to relate to many things

  4. He will have a set of rules that apply to things people consider bad at the time

  5. No following other gods

  6. If you stay true to the path you will be rewarded, if not you are damned

  7. Eventually there will come a time when a crazy con artist sounding guy comes along but hes actually a prophet from god himself and he will claim new things that make it much easier for everybody or more appealing to a certain group to follow his teachings

  8. This "Prophet" will start gathering followers from a small group of close friends then he will gather people from the largest and most susceptible group, the bottom, and build his way up through peer pressure

  9. The "Prophet" will be treated like a king but tell everybody hes being persecuted by any actual authority's

  10. The "Prophet"s people will turn against the government and either they win and he is a king for a while then dies or he loses, dies, becomes a martyr and becomes eternal.

  11. Everything that actually happens is going to sound alot less appealing than what is actually written about it.

[–]LucifersCounsel 0 points1 point ago

Most religions are really similar

No they are not.

Everything you talked about is Abrahamic. Hinduism is nothing like that, for example.

[–]Punkwasher 0 points1 point ago

At the very least this explains the diversity in philosophy, but I also find the basic tenets that are shared interesting. We're limited through our biology and our environment, so certain metaphors and analogies are shared throughout all cultures as those elements are usually shared. The dichotomy of good and evil is a common religious motif, for example, easily explained by the duality of night and day, sun and moon, male and female.

[–]JeffersonQuotes 0 points1 point ago

That's how I always see it. Science is going to be exactly the same for every life form on any body in the uni/multiverse. Religion, on the other hand, will be entirely different.

[–]wonkifier 0 points1 point ago

Since folks are jumping on the God part, I'll jump on the science part.

It is not a given that we could reconstruct scientific knowledge as it stands in the future.

Far far in the future, as galaxies effectively end up moving away from each other faster than the speed of light, there will be a time when people in this galaxy could have no knowledge of any other starts outside this galaxy. Without that, much of science just wouldn't happen. Or at the very least it couldn't be verified.

[–]LucifersCounsel 0 points1 point ago

Only if the universe is really expanding, and that has never been proven.

[–]Basic_Stance 0 points1 point ago

For the sake of "What ifs"

We all know for such a thing to happen we would have to eradicate all mankind, right?

What if this was already proposed, and done, and everything we know (or think we know for that matter) is a result of us reestablishing ourselves after we have previously wiped out civilization?

[–]ForeignDevil08 0 points1 point ago

It is possible we may never fully understand the fabric of our reality. Science provides a way to find out but the time required may extend beyond our lifetime as a race (cataclysm or self-destruction may intervene). Still, if we are truly moved to discover the truth, science is the only game in town. Religions are made up stories. Period.

[–]Methone 0 points1 point ago

Nothing is proved. But i understand his logic. And it's probably true, but then it would only explain that no religion or man can know or explain God. But wherever there is a God or not we will probaböy never figure out.

[–]ozzyvixen 0 points1 point ago

I have said it before and just wanna say it again:

I have such a crush on this man.

[–]Mellowde 0 points1 point ago

II don't know, the major principals of buddhism could potentially surface again.

[–]CuntyMcshitballs 0 points1 point ago

ಠ_ಠ Everyone would be dead, we'd mearly start again, he's right though, you're not.

[–]JAKnighton 0 points1 point ago

Actually, the biggest argument against religion is precisely that we know for a fact thousands of religions have existed, and there is no reason to believe one over the other. You don't have to wipe out anything.

[–]dawfawfawdad 0 points1 point ago

Inadvertently? I'm pretty sure that was the whole basis for what he said. It's his hypothesis.

[–]Pyromaniac605 0 points1 point ago

Considering that every single religion of all time has only sprung up in one place and spread from there, I'd say that's pretty good evidence. Not conclusive, but pretty good.

[–]patchsonic 0 points1 point ago

atheist masturbation material. ive seen this 12 times in the past 4 months.

[–]Niteowlthethird 0 points1 point ago

I don't trust magicians, therefore he is wrong

[–]justguessmyusername 0 points1 point ago

Another words, Penn Jillette is gheyyyyy. I saw him on the Celeb Apprentice and he fucked up on that slogan so hard

[–]TheMediumPanda 0 points1 point ago

I know we've been collectively complaining about reposts for years now, but come on man, this pic and quote has been upvoted to the front page on /r/atheism probably 10 times or more, and those are just times when I've caught them.

[–]NotSoMagicalTrevor 0 points1 point ago

As somebody somewhere once said: "Kill them all and let God sort it out."

[–]FastCarsShootinStars 0 points1 point ago

LOL! All you atheists will have much to regret when you die and are cast into Oblivion. What'll you say when you're face to face with the Daedra? You could of had eternal life in Sovngard but you refused to worship Talos. May Mehunes Dagon have mercy on you. FUS-RO-DAH!!!

[–]darthmittens 0 points1 point ago

the statement isn't true since it's possible that any number of theories can support the same empirical data set. The history of physics could look very different dependent on the contingencies of history.

[–]LegoMaster87 0 points1 point ago

Using science methodology to prove science is science. Oppose to religion not being Science. I don't think we need to do this experiment.

[–]harryoftheEarth 0 points1 point ago

"There is no God" does not follow from religions being ridiculous.

[–]ob5olete 0 points1 point ago

How many times is this going to be posted?

[–]Zycosi 0 points1 point ago

This is a terrible statement. If somebody were to do this experiment then it would, at best, hint that there was no got and more importantly NOBODY HAS DONE IT. So we don't know whether or not it would come back. All he is doing is say that they won't come back, with no supporting evidence. We are right, we don't have to resort to this meaningless shit leave that to people arguing for all powerful space gods.

[–]daflaverone 0 points1 point ago

holy shit. I think you just devised an experiment to see how many upvotes you can get for a repost :o

[–]LucifersCounsel 0 points1 point ago

Hardly. I've been saying the same thing for 30 years.

[–]bht123 0 points1 point ago

did he say no god or no God

[–]mime454 0 points1 point ago

I use a similar line of thought in debates. If there were a secluded island population, and they came up with a system identical to a modern religion, it would make me likely to believe. Same thing if extraterrestrials came to visit us with an earthly religion.

[–]saintgasoline 0 points1 point ago

Others have commented that he's wrong about this necessarily disproving God, but he's also wrong that we'd probably rediscover science exactly as we know it now were all scientific knowledge wiped out. I wouldn't be so sure about that. It isn't clear, for example, that our current scientific theories are entirely correct, nor is it likely that the incorrect or incomplete scientific theories they've been built upon would be rediscovered. Think back to all the failed scientific theories we've posited in the past: phlogiston, behaviorism, psychoanalysis, geocentrism. It is unlikely we'd end up making these same sorts of errors (there are an infinite number of ways to be wrong, after all), and therefore it's probably unlikely we'd also be able to build off the same foundations our current scientific understanding is based on. I hate to say it, but it's also unclear that we'd even develop scientific explanations at all; they eluded us for thousands and thousands of years, after all.

[–]Nocebos 0 points1 point ago

I think this is an old quote, if you asked Penn today he would probably say something diffrent.

[–]doctorqui 0 points1 point ago

Eh, better than some standards of evidence in psychology so I'd say it'd be a good one!

[–]billions_n_billions 0 points1 point ago

I hope you all realize that from the numerous religions available, and those long deceased, this statement has already been proved and the proposed experiment run. Quit squabbling.

[–]GreyFoxSolid 0 points1 point ago

Many people here are arguing that his statement is flawed from the beginning as it assumes an atheistic point of view from the start. This is not, as everyone is saying, flawed reasoning. I'll tell you why.

We can analyze a good chunk of history and see that a theistic interpretation of the world came from a misunderstanding of nature and the environment, i.e. the sun is a god in a chariot. We now know that to not be true.

The idea here is that if the history of the earth was reset, it would likely not happen nearly the same again. As a matter of fact, life may never start here in that reset timeline. If it did, it is unlikely to be the same as it is now. The odds are astronomical that it would happen the same twice.

So his argument is sound.

[–]Thimble 0 points1 point ago

The predominance of monotheistic religions suggest otherwise.

[–]manonthemount 0 points1 point ago

The God hypothesis can never be disproved. That is its only strength, as it is for the Saturn-orbiting teacup hypothesis, the spaghetti-monster hypothesis, the Zeus hypothesis, etc.

Science has merely relegated the God hypothesis to a probability smaller than that of the margin of error. This is nearly tantamount to disproof, but a probability still exists.

YAY SCIENCE.

[–]Dreamtallica 0 points1 point ago

Re-post. I've seen this like 5 times in the last 5 months. Great sentiment, but nothing new.

[–]TGBambino 0 points1 point ago

I want to ask, what would science look like if we lost all knowledge of it and started again? Would we still count in a base 10 system? Where would research lead us if we weren't (at least to our knowledge) constrained by some of the natural laws around us?

[–]rqzerp 0 points1 point ago

Yeah, that there is just common sense. edit: also NOT a proof of (non)existence of god.

[–]mecrosis 0 points1 point ago

You want to disprove the Christian God exists? Easy. Find to devout Christians. Ask them to come minister to you in you house. Ask them to be sure to start the service in Jesus name. Once that is done ask them to pray to God in Jesus' name that he appear before everyone in his full glory at time square.

The Bible states that God has promised that anytime two or more are gathered in his name there he shall be, it also promises that God shall do anything they ask of him in his name. When he doesn't appear in time square you'll have your proof.

[–]Davethepineapple 0 points1 point ago

How do I always somehow find my way back into these atheism threads???

[–]Mistatic 0 points1 point ago

Library of Alexandria

[–]Daemoine 0 points1 point ago

What most people don't seem to realize that, yes, it is religion, but it's a (possible) event in history. If all the history text books and references and such were wiped out, I'd doubt we'd be able to recover some of the information in it too, because they contain historical events.

[–]Auxios 0 points1 point ago

I recall having read something similar to this before, but it sounded much... much more elegant and intellectual. Does anyone happen to know of another source for the same idea? I'm skeptical of whether or not this is Penn's own thought, or if he'd blatantly "rephrased" the original.

[–]silv3r8ack 0 points1 point ago

more accurately...an experiment to prove if any RELIGIONS are true or not

[–]crazySTATS 0 points1 point ago

Penn is also a libertarian. He is the fucking man!

[–]duvakiin 0 points1 point ago

what if this has already happened?!

[–]i8afisch 0 points1 point ago

I met this man once and all I could think to say was "That's my sister." How humiliating. In front of Teller too.

[–]Czar1982 0 points1 point ago

I upvoted this so hard jesus rolled over in his grave!

[–]minglow 0 points1 point ago

I don't know if it was an edit or the original but I liked the one that said, "I promise you we would rediscover gravity and other scientific information exactly the same, but you would never hear of a talking snake again"

[–]five_hammers_hamming 0 points1 point ago

*Gillette

[–]Goldlantern 0 points1 point ago

He doesn't realize that religion teaches divine revelation? This guy sure doesn't read alot of books for a guy who reads alot of books.

[–]sheepsix 0 points1 point ago

I don't agree. I'll start by stating that I have always been an atheist.

The belief in god(s) and the afterlife is somehow hard wired into our nature as a way to explain what we don't yet understand and to justify the suffering that many endure in their lives. All major religions developed around the same basic structure and always will because they are man made. Just the names change.

Of course science would develop in the same way, that's obvious. All that would change are the names.

Oh and yeah, this is an uber repost.

[–]fubc 0 points1 point ago

One: Repost (but I'm ok with that, just saying don't repost again anytime soon please) Two: the real definite way to disprove christianity? Resurrect the Neanderthal from DNA strains we've found. Ain't room for Neanderthal's in Adam and Eve, so, boom, religion forever discredited.

[–]AlexWIWA 0 points1 point ago

Repost x1,243.

[–]HorriblePerson911 0 points1 point ago

This is why I'm an atheist.

[–]rockidol 0 points1 point ago

Ok I've seen this quote attributed to a bunch of different people, can anyone get me a source that it was Penn?

Also this can be applied to history.

If everything were wiped out, nobody would ever figure out that the Holocaust, the WaterGate scandal or the Pyramids ever existed.

[–]darklancer4 0 points1 point ago

i don't think you would like the results of that experiment.

[–]Lesbian_Observations 0 points1 point ago

Sometimes lesbians are fans of Penn Jillette.

[–]Puffy_Ghost 0 points1 point ago

Too bad that "experiment" would have to coincide with the every human being wiped off the face of the planet...except for babies.

[–]ajswoo 0 points1 point ago

from a christian's perspective: God would not allow this to happen. And until it does happen, which it wont, his theory is quite wrong. Just playing the devils advocate, no pun-intended...i couldn't help myself

[–]Belexar 0 points1 point ago

Actually, Aristoteles has scientifically proven the existance of god. He calls it the Prime Motor, or something like that. At least that's its name in spanish, though I'm not sure if it has a different technical name in english.

[–]WinstonChoCho 0 points1 point ago

Okay. So if all of our history texts were wiped out, we would never be able to recreate that exact same picture of the past. Does that mean history isn't real?

The problem with this statement is that a lot of religions are based on perceived historical events (whether or not they're actually real).

[–]BoxOfDemons 0 points1 point ago

But at the same time if a god existed I'm sure he would make sure he was found out again...

[–]BostonGuy33 0 points1 point ago

This guy has a really good podcast. Penn's Sunday School Podcast.

[–]fickle_my_heart 0 points1 point ago

that...is.... GENIUS

[–]Infinitist 0 points1 point ago

I'm unimpressed by this statement. Penn may be sharp tongued, but the tongue is not the brain.

Unfortunately for Penn, here is what is really logical: (1) If the Christian God exists, then it is entirely probable that even if all traces of him were wiped out, that humanity could develop an understanding of him again that precisely mirrors the current understanding. It may very well not, but it would, by the very definition of a monotheistic god, be within God's power to do this. (2) If the Christian God does not exist, then it is very unlikely that the unique stories and patterns that make up the Bible would be replicated in the same way. However, a careful theological analysis of the Bible does demonstrate several themes and philosophical issues that are fit by the contents and it is entirely possible that these would be replicated. (3) If all traces of scientific knowledge were erased, then yes, it is likely that they would be redeveloped in a very similar way because we have already seen how many different properties of the natural world have been consistent in repeated trials. However, science's one weakness is that it cannot offer 100% proof for anything because it is simply an observation of that which has happened and a prediction for what will happen based off of the consistency of what has happened.

[–]NovaDeez 0 points1 point ago

Doesn't stop Mormons. By their own admission, their religion couldn't be perfectly recreated by their own prophet, and they still believe.

[–]Luca_Paz 0 points1 point ago

Look, there's an easy way to prove this. All we need is a couple of nukes, some K-Y jelly and a modified DeLorean DMC-12.

[–]Vladdangel 0 points1 point ago

If I remember correctly (no I can't link the source) in a few hundred years the wavelengths of light will extend to the point that we will no longer be able to see the effects of the big bang. So while we can observe it now, if all information was lost and we surpass that event horizon we would never be able to come to the conclusion that the big bang ever happened... Well maybe that is a little sensationalist but regardless, we would no longer have observable proof.

[–]KNNLTF 0 points1 point ago

I like this argument, not so much because it is undeniably true (religious people might claim that God would reveal himself, again), but because it shows the difference in the way people think about religious claims vs. other claims about the universe. It's like the "there is no Space Jesus" argument. When people create post-apocalyptic narratives, they never worry about re-establishing Christianity, or any other religious idea, but they do spend a lot of energy showing how people slowly recover science (and even artistic technique). That shows that people view scientific claims as inherently true; on the other hand, they subconsciously concede (by not constructing such narratives about religion) that they think of religious claims as entirely dependent on cultural reinforcement of prefered interpretations of subjective psychological experiences.

[–]kytti_pride 0 points1 point ago

HUH

[–]akaalkatraz 0 points1 point ago

Get group of scientists, and a bunch of babies. Send them to space. Wipe out the rest of humanity. Send babies back to Earth once they can repopulate. Have scientists observe religion. Profit.

[–]mallorycm 0 points1 point ago

I got to be on stage as a volunteer at his and teller's show. He remembered my name when I went to get a photo with him afterwards. I like him.

[–]blockblock 0 points1 point ago

It really bugs me when people don't differentiate between god and religion.

[–]SamReidn 0 points1 point ago

How many times is this going to be reposted?

[–]Chizum 0 points1 point ago

Meh. This isn't a strong enough argument to convince a christian otherwise. Its that damn word called Faith. Besides, I still believe in the spaghetti monster. Get off your righteous high horsey Penn.

[–]ilwolf 0 points1 point ago

We have, in fact, had to discover science again and again after the fall of civilations.

[–]Darth_Vagrance 0 points1 point ago

religion has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not there is a God

[–]itsamericasfault 0 points1 point ago

I don't think so much of what Penn Jillette has to say after I saw him in action on The Apprentice. Disappointing.

[–]shm00ps 0 points1 point ago

repost of a repost of a repost

[–]duyogurt 0 points1 point ago

To be fair, Jilette did not come up with that hypothesis. Was it Sam Harris? Not sure.