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all 56 comments

[–]Mr0Mike0 15 points16 points ago

From what I know, there were other gods. The god from the bible was, apparently, the god of war.

[–]Jawalo2k[S] 4 points5 points ago

That's an interesting view point. That, if i'm reading right, implies the christian god of today is the god of war?

[–]Ashdown 2 points3 points ago

One o the Christian gods (angry god, old testament) is the god of war. Im on my phone at the moments but look up the fudge rent gods that make up the Christian god, it's quite interesting.

[–]shit_reddit_says 2 points3 points ago

the fudge rent gods

I lol'd.

[–]Ashdown 1 point2 points ago

Hungover iPhone autocorrect does amazing things. I don't even know what I meant.

[–]Soporus 1 point2 points ago

Yep. Yahweh Sabaoth. The commandment was meant to draw worship away from the other gods and to the war god. Some people thought they wouldn't get conquered if they devoted themselves exclusively to the war god, and eventually they won everyone over.

[–]Mr0Mike0 0 points1 point ago

I saw this video, but it seems to not be available here in the USA. Somebody reposted it to youtube, but I lost the link. http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/related/gaewk/documentary_by_atheist_biblical_scholar_on_bbc2/

[–]studmuffffffin 4 points5 points ago

Source?

[–]MrStuff 10 points11 points ago*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion

Give Karen Armstrong's "A History of God" a read. Yaweh was a god of war, competing with other gods for followers (hence: "I am a jealous god"). El Elyon was was the guy who created everything. Baal and Asherah were also prominent figures.

More rarely, inscriptions linking Yahweh and Asherah have been discovered: an 8th century BCE ostracon inscribed "Berakhti etkhem l’YHVH Shomron ul’Asherato" (Hebrew: בירכתי אתכם ליהוה שומרון ולאשרתו‎) was discovered by Israeli archeologists at Kuntillet Ajrud (Hebrew "Horvat Teman") in the course of excavations in the Sinai desert in 1975. This translates as: "I have blessed you by YHVH of Samaria and His Asherah" (or perhaps "... by YHVH our guardian and His Asherah", if "Shomron" is to be read "shomrenu"). Another inscription, from Khirbet el-Kom near Hebron, reads: "Blessed be Uriyahu by Yahweh and by his Asherah; from his enemies he saved him!".

Makes a lot more sense why he would pick one particular tribe of people and lead them in conquest and do magic for them when he's a god of war and didn't create everything, doesn't it?

The texts were later retconned to say that El Elyon and Yahweh were the same guy all along.

[–]brauer1 4 points5 points ago

shouldnt this be one of the biggest arguments against the Bible?

[–]RaindropBebop 1 point2 points ago

Against the Bible? Or against god being something other than an evolving human idea?

[–]otakuman 0 points1 point ago

shouldnt this be one of the biggest arguments against the Bible?

If you were shocked by this, wait 'til you hear about Psalm 29 and Baal :)

[–]shalafi71 1 point2 points ago

I tried to read that book years ago and it bored me to tears. I wasn't an atheist then, but it still sounded like a deconstruction of fairy tales.

"You see this fairy tale gave birth to this fairy tale, but then the fairy tales get mixed up."

3/10. Would not read on the toilet again.

[–]badcatdog 1 point2 points ago

For Yaweh, from wiki:

As the origins of Yahweh seem to lie to the southeast of Israel, in Edom and Midian or even further south, an alternative explanation looks for its etymology in South Semitic languages like Arabic rather than in Hebrew, which is West Semitic. One of the meanings of HWY in Arabic is connected with falling or causing to fall, leading to an interpretation of Yahweh as a storm god whose name means "He who causes to fall" (meaning rain, lightning, and his enemies) or "He storms". This also helps explain Yahweh's attributes as a storm god (he comes to rescue Israel surrounded by darkness and thick clouds, and the earth trembles, the clouds drop water, and the mountains quake at his appearance), and the way he appropriates attributes from the rival storm god Baal.[13][14]

[–]Prownilo 2 points3 points ago

Relevant video - Atheism - A History of God (The Polytheistic Origins of Christianity and Judaism)

[–]thirdegree 1 point2 points ago

Absolutely fascinating, thank you for this.

[–]otakuman 0 points1 point ago

I see you've been studying Canaanite religions, too :)

Glad to find a fellow colleague.

[–]kamiltonian_dynamics 7 points8 points ago

Monotheistic Judaism grew out of a polytheistic tradition.

EDIT: That's why you have references to other deities, that's why Yahweh is so adamant on letting the Jews know that he was their god, that's why Pharaoh's magicians can perform magic. It's why Yahweh seems more like a petty human at times.

[–]masterwolfe 5 points6 points ago

If I remember correctly, the Bible is a little vague on the issue of other gods, but it does mention other powers. Exodus has a couple references to the Egyptian magicians using powers that oppose Moses. This would seem to imply that there are other sources of supernatural power separate from God.

[–]shalafi71 1 point2 points ago

As a small child this confused me, among other things. I asked for explanations and got BS in response. BS a child could detect and children have VERY weak BS detectors.

[–]WeaponsGradeHumanity 1 point2 points ago

What kind of BS? I'm curious to know.

[–]shalafi71 0 points1 point ago

Where to even start? For one I asked about little kids in Africa that never had the chance to hear about Christ and get saved. Another, God won't value you and will send you to eternal damnation for not accepting Jesus, even if you're a good person? It also seemed kinda unfair that Jesus revealed himself as a god (working miracles and such) to a small society 2,000 years ago, giving them little choice but to see and believe, but he won't reveal himself in our time. The whole unfairness of the religion struck me as BS.

[–]WeaponsGradeHumanity 1 point2 points ago

Sorry, I should have said I was particularly interested to know what response you got when you asked about such things as the Egyptian magicians.

[–]shalafi71 0 points1 point ago

You hit it on the head! One of the first things I questioned was that whole scene with Moses and the Pharaoh.

It seemed the Pharaoh was on the verge of being reasonable to Moses' demands but god "hardened his heart", more than once. That struck me as unfair as all hell. Why would god purposefully make the Pharaoh a meany? Also, if the Egyptians worshiped false god's (that didn't even exist as I understood it) how did they get magic spells?!?

Most of the answers I got were really vague, of course. "Things were different back then.", was the most common. Why did people live for hundreds of years? "Things were different back then." There was always, "God works in mysterious ways.".

To my parents and preachers credit, they never told me not to question or to just shut up. I was raised in a quiet (read: not zealous) Presbyterian church and as a child I was under the impression that none of the adults truly believed in all this nonsense. Now I'm 41 and I STILL wonder if Christians truly believe this stuff.

[–]ProfessorHoneycutt 2 points3 points ago

This might help. Cheers.

[–]JaronK 5 points6 points ago

The bible itself mentions other gods. The first genesis story, in the original language had "Elohim" as the deities. Elohim is plural, meaning "those of El." El was the Caananite overdeity, and the other gods were his children, so this effectively means "the gods."

In the second Genesis story, the deity was YHWH, currently called Yahweh or Jehovah (depending on how you pronounce it).

This means that the snake popping in and screwing up the garden makes sense... it was another god's snake.

[–]Grapho 4 points5 points ago

The Bible calls something a god if it is worshiped in the place of the true God — Yahweh. But it does not recognize such "gods" as real, living entities.

"Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me." (Isa 43:10)

"And there you will serve gods of wood and stone, the work of human hands, that neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell." (Deut 4:28)

"For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords” — yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (1 Cor 8:5-6)

[–]whoadave 1 point2 points ago

Read some of the other comments here, might change your mind.

[–]Grapho -1 points0 points ago

I've read them. Mind not changed. Most are irrelevant to the post, which is making an inter-biblical inference. I therefore provided biblical texts that give an answer to the OP's question.

[–]whoadave 1 point2 points ago

Those other gods are mentioned in the bible, they are biblical gods. The ten commandments were written when Moses was leading the Hebrews out of Egypt, where they worshipped a multitude of other gods. And as someone else pointed out in the comments, Pharaoh's magicians were able to perform magic, which was of course thanks to their gods.

[–]Grapho 0 points1 point ago

Indeed the pagan gods are mentioned in the Bible, but this does not imply that Yahweh recognizes them as actual living gods. The texts I supplied refute this line of reasoning.

And yes, Pharaoh's magicians performed miracles, but nowhere does the Bible attribute such miracles to the gods of Egypt. Scripture affirms that Satan is able to perform miracles (Rev 16:4), and, incidentally, he is called the god of this world (2 Cor 4:4). Why? Because he is worshiped as God.

[–]Brilliantly_stupid 0 points1 point ago

How do you resolve the distinction between the three gods El Elyon, Yahweh, and Baal, all three of which were worshipped by Canaanite Jews?

Also of note, how do you address the notion that Judaism is well accepted to be a Henotheistic religion? Would you prefer to think of Judaism, and later Christianity as a Monolatric religion? Do you think that theologists are just wrong?

You say you have read the other responses in this thread but are still unconvinced. You have not addressed the Bible's explicit mentioning of other deities though, how do you reconcile your belief set with those references?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolatrism

[–]WeaponsGradeHumanity 0 points1 point ago

Don't forget Asherah!

[–]Grapho 0 points1 point ago

"How do you resolve the distinction between the three gods El Elyon, Yahweh, and Baal, all three of which were worshipped by Canaanite Jews?"

The Jews were very often naughty, and "broke faith with the God of their fathers, and whored dafter the gods". (1 Chron 5:25)

Idolatry seemed to be quite the temptation for Israel.

[–]Grapho 0 points1 point ago

And El Elyon (or "Most High God") is simply another name for Yahweh.

[–]Wynns 2 points3 points ago

I recall reading somewhere that this type of language was to appease the traditions of the day where people might have "family gods" or whatever. The idea was that it allowed the polytheism of the time to meld with Christianity... as long as the Christian god was the main god.. everything was cool.

[–]iam2bz2p 2 points3 points ago

Well, we should also count the Devil/Satan among the gods, no?

[–]goudabob 3 points4 points ago*

Satan as he is known today didn't really exist at the time the bible was written.

A really good documentary that explains this is Andy Hamilton's Search for Satan (5 parts)

[–]shalafi71 0 points1 point ago

Tried to watch that but I couldn't stand seeing otherwise intelligent people try to bend and twist and hula-hoop to justify believing in this crap. TIL I have a very short tolerance for this crap.

[–]hakbor 1 point2 points ago

A just question my liege..

[–]darkNergy 0 points1 point ago

Not necessarily. It could mean that you're supposed to worship the one god who obviously exists instead of all the other gods who are imaginary.

[–]thename226 0 points1 point ago

If you ask a fundie they'll say that anything you spend a lot of time with is a "God". Also, the bible does refer to statues, other inanimate things, and animals as Gods if people worship them.

I can give citations from the bible if needed.

PS: I'm an ex-fundie.

[–]AL_CaPWN422 0 points1 point ago

I always thought it was false gods you weren't supposed to worship.

[–]shalafi71 1 point2 points ago

Good point! But the commandment states, "...no other gods before me". OP has a good better point. No mention of false gods, just, "I'm #1".

[–]SlaughterMeister 0 points1 point ago

Read The Early History of God by Mark S. Smith.

[–]Nanocyborgasm 0 points1 point ago

That is actually the standard academic interpretation of that verse. At the time it was written, it is thought that Yahweh was simply the god of the Hebrews, who had a special covenant with them, and lived only in Israel. The same ideas were held by pagans, who viewed their gods as dwelling in specific locations, and having dominion over specific realms, just as there were different kingdoms for different kings. Temples were viewed as the homes of the gods, and services were typically performed outside of them, not inside.

[–]Sergio-Flores_Saxman 0 points1 point ago

Old Jews believed God was the ultimate God. "Thou shout not worship any GODS before me.

[–]otakuman 0 points1 point ago

Psalm 89:6 talks about the sons of gods, and about an assembly of heaven (this Psalm predates biblical monotheism).

[–]SoleilSocrates -1 points0 points ago

I honestly forget the 10 commandments...I have horrible memory! Mind refreshing me!