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all 31 comments

[–]corvidcanine 2 points3 points ago

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I know the feel, bro. (offers ecologist hug)

[–]Avesa 1 point2 points ago

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Here's another ecologist hug. Hugs for everyone!

[–]corvidcanine 0 points1 point ago

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Hooray for hugs! :D

[–]kirixen 1 point2 points ago

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note: the word "uneducated" in your title is redundant.

[–]psychicesp[S] 0 points1 point ago

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lol

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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Am I the only one who watched that for like 3 minutes waiting for the owl to strike back?

[–]psychicesp[S] 0 points1 point ago

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Trust me, he wants to

[–]fuzzymechy 1 point2 points ago

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oh man, i know how you feel. it seems like the more you know and the more damning the evidence for evolution is, the more annoying it gets when people come up and spout some nonsense about the second law of thermodynamics or some shit. i guess back when i didn't know that much about evolution it was like "well i feel like that's not right, but i'm not educated enough to debate it", but now it's more like "you're wrong and here's why, but that won't change anything"

[–]psychicesp[S] 0 points1 point ago

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Nothing pisses me off more than when people who do not understand physics at all try and talk about the second law of thermodynamics. The laws of thermodynamics are well incorporated into modern biology, and for them to think that all scientists everywhere are cumulatively overlooking fundamental distinctions is beyond arrogant.

[–]SaintGenesius 0 points1 point ago

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Why exactly do you have to be that way? Seems like if they bring up questions you'd be thoroughly able to answer a lot of them.

[–]kirixen 1 point2 points ago

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because the answers aren't simple enough for them to understand, so they assume you're lying, or wrong.

[–]SaintGenesius 0 points1 point ago

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You don't argue with someone to convince them. You argue to convince the people around them.

The person you're arguing against is always going to be invested in being right (or at least making you wrong). The onlookers, even if they're biased in one direction or another, will never be as invested as the debaters. So you try and take your opponents apart in a clear way and the people looking at the argument will see who is right.

[–]psychicesp[S] 0 points1 point ago*

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I've gone down the road of trying to explain dispersal and divergence as a precursor to evolution, they hit me with that oh so beloved statement "if we came from apes, why are there still apes?"

Me saying, "i literally just explained that to you" does no good.

As a final point, anyone open to believing something because of scientific evidence pretty much already accepts evolution. There's a minority of people open to science that has never exposed themselves to evidence to evolution, but they're much rarer then we tell ourselves that they are

EDIT: Past my final point, i love being right, so i still debate with them, but I have to go into aforementioned state of mind when they respond

[–]SaintGenesius 0 points1 point ago

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Eh, I can see that. Again, practically every time I get into an argument it's a spectacle. I bring in waiters, other customers, cashiers, and anyone else who accepts the invitation. I don't drag people in, just make it clear that anyone who wants can jump in whenever they want.

The point is always not to get the individual debating to swap sides, but to get all the people eavesdropping to see what's actually valid and what's not. If you can't get that sort of setup I can see not bothering.

Also: I don't go around starting these conversations with random folks. I'll be chatting with a friend (usually who disagrees with me, is equally argumentative as, and a little smarter than me), and someone will chime in, and soon the whole place is participating.

[–]kirixen 0 points1 point ago

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the type of debate you're talking about requires both parties to be at least relatively versed in the subject matter. Otherwise your well formed arguments get rebuffed by the response: "oh yeah, well I can count to potato, so what you said makes no sense."

[–]SaintGenesius 1 point2 points ago

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I think you're giving people too little credit. Most people see that for what it is, as long as they aren't the ones doing it and it gets called out quickly.

That's been my experience, and I've been living in the shittiest parts of the bible belt most of my life. Once in a while you get that guy, but it's really not that common.

[–]kirixen 2 points3 points ago

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I find that I can either find common ground to start a good debate, or they respond with "atheism is a religion, evolution is just a guess, the bible is the oldest scientific textbook we have and we should respect it" I've ruined more than one new year's eve party this way.

I think you're giving people way too much credit.

[–]SaintGenesius 0 points1 point ago

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I'm honestly curious as to why our experiences have been so different.

I've had negative experiences, but nothing like bad enough to dissuade me.

[–]kirixen 1 point2 points ago

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they tend to be win or lose with me. Either they're the type of person that doesn't know the difference between "theory and guess", has no idea what "abiogenesis" means OR I can convince them that the scientific method is just that, a method, not an ideology, not a religion, not a belief system, just a method of thinking and discovering. I have no idea why I get all the ridiculous ones, but consider yourself lucky, they're infuriating.

[–]SaintGenesius 0 points1 point ago

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Well that's just it: I do get those, just not often. They usually just get straight shut down by the larger group (the advantage to democratic debate I suppose) because the whackadoodles aren't generally as eloquent, educated, or sane as the myself or my starting opponents.

[–]psychicesp[S] 0 points1 point ago*

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The main difference frustration-wise between us, is evolution is my life. Every class i've ever taken in college was evolution centered. I'm assuming you're from a less specialized background so pardon me if i've assumed incorrectly. But if from you're perspective the evidence towards evolution seems pretty conclusive, you can imagine how overwhelming the evidence is from my perspective.

EDIT: It seriously is like having to prove to an adult that Santa doesn't exist, you can imagine what the preexisting mindset must be like for there to even exist an adult that believes in Santa. When I even picture in my mind an adult that believes in Santa i picture a mentally challenged adult. Its not about the belief in Santa, its about the true underlying factor that caused him to have such stunted development.

[–]kirixen 0 points1 point ago

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I guess i just know more whackadoodles :'(

[–]music_and_science 0 points1 point ago

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As an ex-creationist, please don't ignore the stupid arguments. It's unlikely that your words will change the person's mind immediately, but you may have an effect on bystanders or even on the arguer himself eventually. It took several years of hearing the truth in order to undo a childhood of indoctrination. Now happily studying biochemistry and loving how everything ties together so eloquently.

[–]psychicesp[S] 0 points1 point ago*

sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

Every class i've ever taken in college was evolution centered. If from you're perspective the evidence towards evolution seems pretty conclusive, you can imagine how overwhelming the evidence is from my perspective.

Its seriously is like having to prove to an adult that Santa doesn't exist, you can imagine what the preexisting mindset must be like for there to even exist an adult that believes in Santa. When I even picture in my mind an adult that believes in Santa i picture a mentally challenged adult. Its not about the belief in Santa, its about the true underlying factor that caused him to have such stunted development.

I've gone down the road of trying to explain dispersal and divergence as a precursor to evolution, they hit me with that oh so beloved statement "if we came from apes, why are there still apes?" Me saying, "i literally just explained that to you" does no good.

As a final point, anyone open to believing something because of scientific evidence pretty much already accepts evolution. There's a minority of people open to science that has never exposed themselves to evidence to evolution, but they're much rarer then we tell ourselves that they are. Past my final point, I love being right, so I still debate with them, but I have to go into aforementioned state of mind when they respond.

Again, I'm happy to answer any semi-rational question, but if arguments like these don't work "two is not a viable population, there would not be enough genetic diversity and all populations would collapse" and "the dispersal pattern on Earth is not central to Mt Ararat as Noah's Arc would suggest" then the person has more growing up to do before i spend any of my time on it.