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all 62 comments

[–]DidntClickGuy 2 points3 points ago

There are several varieties of Buddhism that all seem to have widely varying practices.

What all Buddhist scholars universally recognize is that the early history of Buddhism, and its core message, has been covered with a veneer of myth and superstition. This is to be expected in a religion that began 400 years BCE. But since even the most ancient texts are affected this way, it's up to the individual practitioner to try to sort out the essential philosophical truth and discard the rest.

These are the doctrines all Buddhists adopt:

  1. Unsatisfactoriness (dukkha) is the key problem to the human condition. Pain, suffering, grief, disappointment, irritation, boredom, worry, not getting what you want, getting what you don't want, etc. are all covered under this concept. It is pervasive in life and is present in pretty much everything we do.

  2. The reason that we experience unsatisfactoriness is because of our tendency to cling to things we think will make us happy, instead of dealing with events as they really are. Our wishful thinking disconnects us from the immediacy of our experiences and that produces the unsatisfactoriness.

  3. It is possible for this problem to be totally, permanently overcome.

  4. The method for erasing this clinging is by practicing a life of discipline in eight areas: perspective, commitment, communication, action, career, lifestyle, attention, and meditation.

This is what all Buddhists believe, regardless of region or tradition. And it's somewhat troubling to me that whether people seem to like it or dislike it, they don't seem to have a very clear picture of what it actually teaches.

[–]thehumanist 4 points5 points ago

In terms of philosophy, eastern religions are less aggressive than western partly because of their lack of organization.

However atrocities committed by Buddhist Peoples: Pol Pot, Burma, Sri Lanka, Tibetan eye gouging

[–]furryspoon 1 point2 points ago

I think we need to see some sort of cause-n-effect before we start laying blame on any institution. As in - did Pol Pot do what he did as a result of following a religion?

Otherwise we might as well start arresting all bearded people, who are responsible for so many attrocities.

[–]panzerkampfwagen 7 points8 points ago

Of course his people were evil overlords before the Chinese took over and granted the people things such as the ability to read.

[–]orniver 7 points8 points ago

Not sure if sarcasm... or really understood the fact that he's not a saint as described by the Western media.

[–]fetishforswedish 0 points1 point ago

Do you have anything I could read about this? I've heard that before, but as you said, I've only really seen him displayed as this perfect guy. I'd just like an alternate perspective if you have one.

[–]svadhisthana 1 point2 points ago

He's an aristocrat and most of his people lived in poverty. By the way, the penalty for theft in Tibet under the Dalai Lama's rule was to have the thief's foot amputated. So much for nonviolence.

[–]Cmrade_Dorian 0 points1 point ago

Exactly I'm sick of the "Free Tibet" hippies on campus. From what I have read pre-china Tibet was more or less a medieval fiefdom where the monks ruled over a generally ignorant & underdeveloped peasantry.

Also While it may be propaganda I have heard many Tibetans prefer the Chinese to the monks. True the Chinese are brutal & iron-boot but at least they have things like electricity, running water, heating & roads.

[–]TodTheTyrant 3 points4 points ago

"i believe in reincarnation" - the dalai llama

[–]hoopla69 3 points4 points ago

Read god is not Great; Hitchens destroys both hinduism and buddhism. Both have lead to sadistic actions, sexual, violence, sexual violence, etc.. However I imagine you're not an anti theist if your posting such things, so you may find his book alarmingly rude.

[–]Cutties27 3 points4 points ago

That's not exactly what Hitchens said concerning Buddhism. He outlined how the Japanese government applied pressure on Buddhist leaders to bring their membership on board with the war effort and those institutions that refused were closed down(many closed down). His entire point was that Buddhist ideology is not immune when nationalistic pressure is applied. In essence any organized structure can be either be coerced or destroyed . Hitchens says that, unlike Christianity or Islam, Buddhism doesn't inherently contain a seed of violence but that a peaceful ideology is still vulnerable.

I'm not a fan of the Dalai Lama nor of any form of structured or prescriptive Buddhism. What bothers me about atheism on Reddit is that it seems to have developed a culture; you know how they say that atheism is a religion in the same sense that turning off the TV is a channel? On Reddit there seems to be a channel telling you to turn off the TV which is in essence a form of ideological perpetuation. Non belief is meant to be a non-existent value not a zero (which is a number).

[–]NeuroG 1 point2 points ago

"In essence any organized structure can be either be coerced or destroyed"

Correction: any organized structure that teaches denial of intellect, critical thinking, and reason can easily be coerced for nationalistic goals.

[–]mazinaru 1 point2 points ago

Not much of a correction, both statements are true.

[–]NeuroG 0 points1 point ago

That's why, for instance, Academics are so well known to tow the nationalistic line. I'm sure Hitchens would also not be entirely comfortable with the first statement. It was the "Leave your shoes and brain at the door" mentality of Buddhism that he was critical of.

[–]hoopla69 0 points1 point ago

I think we have different interpretations of his text. I felt he was criticizing all religion, and made a point not to leave out the "inherently peaceful ones" if there is such a thing... He certainly has more angst towards the hindus but I never felt much reservations for buddhism. Upvotes for everyone!

[–]horsedickery 5 points6 points ago

Tell me how the Buddha advocated sadistic actions, sexual,violence, sexual violence, ect..

If that's not what you meant to say, you should be more careful about saying things like Buddhism "lead to" violence. Buddhism explicitly emphasises non-violence and compassion towards all living things. This is at the core of the religion. You're accusing a religion of causing violence, without giving a shred of evidence. That's not very rational of you.

[–]hoopla69 0 points1 point ago

Your accusing me of saying that the buddha (I like your capitalization of a mammalian god king) advocated such things. I claimed that buddhism as a religion has lead to such events. I did not state that a disillusioned god king advocated sadistic actions, merely that the advocates of him engaged in such actions. You're criticizing my lack of evidence, however, as I have pointed out, Hitchens provides it very well. The rest is up to you my friend. It seems to offend you that I am anti theistic? I apologize if I have hurt your love affair with buddhism. I don't give a shit what buddha advocated, it is what was done with his teaching that is up for criticism.

[–]horsedickery 1 point2 points ago*

Actually, your wrong. Anti-theists are devil-worshipping murders and rapists. Go read Return of the King by J.R.R Tolkien if you disagree with me. I apologize if I hurt your love affair with hitchens(I like your capitalization of a dead chordate book-monger). Are you offended my non-bigoted atheism?

<serious>You slandered a whole religion by claiming it "leads to violence". Compassion and non-violence are central to this religion. I asked you to clarify, but you called me names and told me to read an entire fucking book.

You're anti-theism sounds like good, old-fashioned bigotry to me. You're a disgrace to the atheist community. I hide my beliefs from my acquaintances lest I be associated with people like you. </serious>

Edit: Made some minor wording changes.

[–]hoopla69 0 points1 point ago

Nice ad hominem. Also enjoyed you devout love for compassion, and then you proceed to slander and attempt to hurt me. You are a hypocrite. You hide your beliefs? Good, they are way off and out of touch we reality. I don't mind what you think of me, I am quite content in my own beliefs. Calm yourself foolish child, you have much to learn.

Also I didnt call you names, nor did I attack you. I did however attack your silly, idiotic, false buddhist belief.

[–]horsedickery 1 point2 points ago

I'm an atheist, not a Buddhist. Please read that again. When I say that I hide my beliefs from my acquaintances, this means I refrain from criticising religion. This also means that when I mention compassion, I make no claim that I am not a total dick.

The "compassion" comment was referring the teachings of Buddhism. The teachings of Buddhism are relevant in a discussion of whether or not Buddhism "leads to violence". I was planning on having this discussion with you, but you won't tell me what you mean by that. If you want to have a good debate, you use facts to support your claims. Throwing insults around is great fun, but it's not very productive. My last post was also full of insults and light on content, I admit.

We atheists should project an image of rationality and civility to the rest of the world. This means we argue like civilised human beings. I'll try.

[–]hoopla69 0 points1 point ago

Upvotes, take all my upvotes.

[–]horsedickery 0 points1 point ago

I'm not sure why, but thanks anyway. I'll give you a couple too, since sharing is fun.

[–]cosmossac 3 points4 points ago

meh... I have no respect for this hypocrite. There is one religious group I wouldn't mind having around, though; 'MILITANT' JAINS.

[–]TeutscherTangel 0 points1 point ago

I like them for their swastika :)

[–]furryspoon -1 points0 points ago

I think you would mind having them around - you wouldn't be able to have a coffee without going through an airport-security-like screening for innocent microscopic insects that may have fallen into the cup.

[–]clutterbang 2 points3 points ago

I have a Livejournal friend who is slowly losing it in, especially in regards to Buddhism and string theory (lol, still not sure how she's defining that). She posted an article recently from '95 or something where the Dalai Lama was invited to check out some quantum physics experiments somewhere in Europe. They say he wouldn't accept the Heisenberg principal at all.

[–]boogabooga08 6 points7 points ago

He doesn't mean that.

[–]TodTheTyrant 7 points8 points ago

he's putting the burden of proof on other's to disprove his quackery...that's not really that special.

[–]boogabooga08 -1 points0 points ago

Yeah, that is true, too. I just find it even funnier that he doesn't mean it at all. If he did, then I don't think he would believe in reincarnation. We know that our conscience is created by the connections in our brain making many on/off switches that create the emergent state. Every new animal would be a completely different entity with its own emergent state. It would be a far stretch to say that one being is the same as another being--even if they were made from the same atoms.

[–]TodTheTyrant 0 points1 point ago

or if they were made from different atoms as well. If I'm an eagle, i'm not really me anymore now am I? and Eagle's physiology isn't even capable of being me.

[–]Psionic_Flash 1 point2 points ago*

It is ironic how much buddhist teachings of how suffering can lead to enlightenment can be applied to the evolution of societies in real life.

It wasn't that long ago when the Lamas were the oppressive overlords of the Tibetan people. But after the total Chinese occupation of Tibet, the idea of that regime is forever no more and the current Dalai Lama preaches peace and equality and dedicates his life to helping his people. In a single generation becoming almost the complete opposite of his predecessors.

European society and Japan as well underwent a huge cultural change after the second world war. After their entire world was left in ashes people really develop an understanding of how fragile life really is. The formation of the united nations, the prevention of war, and the idea of helping maintain each others well being despite effort on our own part is greatly influenced by having endured the great tragedy that was WWII. To be faced with death and come out knowing how precious life really is. This is something that moves worlds.

The Americans have never been faced with such devastation. Which is why people there are not always on the same page as the world when in comes to many issues. This is partly because they are a relatively young nation and also because they are very militaristic. The only real time the States have been attacked by foreigners was in the 9/11 terror attacks. And even that was enough to bring a significant, observable change within the nation.

[–]spacitron 1 point2 points ago

So Buddhism is true by default?

[–]ifinallyreddited 1 point2 points ago

i dont claim to be a scholar or anything but i studied buddhism briefly while studying asian art history. like all religions there are many different sects and versions. some involve many deities and gods. zen buddhism on the other hand is more atheistic and a philosophy/way of life, if i recall correctly. nirvana literally means 'to extinguish', one attains enlightenment by embracing the void, 'extinguishing' life (or the cycle of life/rebirth). there is no god or deity in that belief. "if you pass a buddha on the road, strike him down" is an old zen riddle/proverb i think.

[–]HankMcCoy7410 2 points3 points ago

Is Buddhism really a religion, though? It's always seemed more of a philosophy than anything. I don't know much about it, however.

[–]svadhisthana 0 points1 point ago

The Buddhist belief in reincarnation is not philosophical; it's dogmatic.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points ago

Yes, because it goes beyond a philosophy. It is not just an outlook on life, or a set of morals, and life lessons. It incorporates mythical ideas like reincarnation.

[–]HankMcCoy7410 1 point2 points ago

Thanks. I need to do more research on it.

[–]johannesg -1 points0 points ago

Although they (at least Dalai Lama as far as I know) seem to focus more on the philosophy. I have this faint memory of reading it somewhere of Dalai Lama talking about how they figured out that focusing on gods and supernatural beings in their scriptures was doing more harm than good and less and less people were able to relate to it. So they decided to take out the middle man and focus on the philosophy.

[–]CarlaSimian 0 points1 point ago

Why is he called "His Holiness"?

[–]kontankarite 0 points1 point ago

No. He's shifting the burden of proof here. Buddhism is right and science has to prove it's worthy to stand next to Buddhism. That's not how it works. It actually goes the other way around.

[–]svadhisthana 0 points1 point ago

Let me know when the Dalai Lama renounces his claim that he's the reincarnation of Buddha.

[–]horsedickery 0 points1 point ago

I find it hilarious that most people saw the OP and thought "Oh, shit! The Dalai Lama expressed respect for science. Quick, let's find a way that he is still a bad guy."

[–]Billy_jack 0 points1 point ago

i tear up slightly every time i see this

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]BrenSP -1 points0 points ago

Enjoy your life of servitude to the reborn prophet!

[–]Tspoon -1 points0 points ago

It does the least harm, Ive only read about buddhist burning them self's in protest of wars, never burning anyone else

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

As a rational person, burning oneself to death does not seem like a proper way to protest more death

[–]Tspoon 1 point2 points ago

True that, i was questioning that my self as i typed it.

but, if someone chooses to burn them selfs to protest something its gets the message across without creating more hate and violence.

suicide bombers are kind of a cycle of hate and pain that renews its self

[–]PerfectFaro 0 points1 point ago

Facebook is a religion?

[–]Kuro_yami[S] 0 points1 point ago

Hey if Lisa Simpson approves that's good enough for me.

[–]clutterbang 0 points1 point ago

Considering the basic tenant of Buddhism is that all suffering has a cause, I think it's supposed to be one of the less characteristically delusional religions.

[–]RichardBehiel -2 points-1 points ago

Buddhism is the Good Guy Greg of religion.

[–]holyschmidt -1 points0 points ago

In all sincerity, fuck his holiness.

[–]jordaniac89 -1 points0 points ago

Except, why start with Buddhism and have it disproved before you stop believing it. Buddhists will say out of one side of their mouth that they embrace science, and out of the other side talk about Nirvana, the sands of time, cyclical universes and other such nonsense.

[–]shortcut13 6 points7 points ago

I think it is important her to delineate what is meant by "buddhism." The Dalai Lama leads a particular branch of tibetan, theravada buddhism.

I personally am an (agnostic) atheist, and also practice Zen Buddhism. Some branches of buddhism are very much "folk" religions (like christianity originally was) that incorporate gods and stuff. I like zen because it is a streamlined version of the actual mental/emotional self control and self acceptance practices that arise from meditation. It's great and does not require belief in supernatural powers, just an awareness of the present moment which can be honed through sitting.

As I stated earlier, I am an agnostic atheist. I like this perspective personally because I don't want to claim "[the christian] God does not exist" (I have no meaningful definition of god, nor has one ever been supplied) and instead want to claim "I don't believe in the existence of [the christian] God." Furthermore, I think that all too often atheism becomes so broadly understood that it rejects the foundations for a "spiritual" life in the process of denying the existence of any deity, which has its own drawbacks. I think that there are mysteries inherent to life and awareness that are best approached with a heuristic mindset- science is great, but you can't be a scientist all the time and sometimes you just have to do what works. But you also have to realize, and this is the crucial mistake that many religious people make but which I do not think the Dalai lama has made, that if your heuristic belief system is not as effective as it could be then you shouldn't cling to the old views and assumptions. Frankly, scientists, especially older ones, often make the same mistake and it slows down scientific advancement.

Defining what spirituality can be within the boundaries of a scientific perspective is of course a difficult endeavor, but it is one that can also be altogether separate from the endeavor of determining what one's beliefs with regard to the objective external existence of any "Gods" are.

In a related note, I recently adopted some aspects of the bhakti "loving devotion" yoga from hinduism into my spiritual practice. Ive been trying to improve my capacity to feel affection and care for myself and others. Bhakti yoga, in my understanding of it, is the practice of serving and worshipping a "personal" deity within hinduism. I've chosen Ganesha as mine. Now, I don't believe in the external objective existence of gods. i do however take a psychological perspective that "gods" have an internal existence- they are an alter, so to speak, sort of like a very quiet split personality that individual egos may use to prop up their belief system. When schizophrenics think they hear gods voice, they are really just hearing a voice their own biology produced internally and not recognizing its source as their self. With "Ganesha," i view it as an intentionally created symbol for an imaginary alter with allegorical stories associated- I picked Ganesha because i like certain symbolic aspects her possesses (he is the god of academics and artists, the protector of the "threshold" between success and failure, and the remover of obstacles and fear). I have no association with real hinduism, but I am comfortable with adopting aspects of it to help foster my spiritual development- also, to my understanding some elements of Hindu philosophy view a representation of a "god" as the actual embodiment of that being. I think that's cool, and run with that element in my understanding of Ganesha as a purely symbolic entity, a kind of conceptual technology almost. By "worshipping" Ganesha (the psychological symbol for the unknown aspects of my own subconscious and all the self-tendencies that are hidden from me, my own failures) I strive to remind myself to be all that I can be, to accept that I don't consciously have control over everything, to take time to observe beauty, foster respect for myself and others and as a general catch all for what ever a busy life makes me forget to take the time for. I don't need the Ganesha symbol to do such things, but it does serve as a useful marker when I'm feeling down, alone and overwhelmed that love, grace and wisdom do exist- and that I have felt them enough to link myself to them, in some kind of an indelible way. I figure as long as I practice this self-consciously and with a clear understanding of why and how the process works, it should be OK and not inconsistent with my belief in Atheism.

IDK, it's not a practice I would recommend for everyone- and it is certainly not right, nor necessary for everyone to be like me. I think what is important, however, is that we enrich each other by sharing our unique perspectives and take from each other, even those we disagree with, something of value after communicating. Knee jerk rejections do not foster wisdom, in my opinion.

[–]amazingbandersnatch 1 point2 points ago

He doesn't lead Theravada but Gelug-pa, a form of Vajrayana practice which is highly blended with traditional Tibetan Bon.

[–]shortcut13 0 points1 point ago

Word! Thank you. My bad :)

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points ago

He is asking for scientists to prove a negative, just as Christians often do.

For those of you that don't understand what proving a negative means:

If I claim that a small teapot is orbiting the sun, to small to see even with a telescope, and we don't know it's current location, you'd (rightfully) call me dogmatic.

If I believed in this, without evidence, but said "I'll change my beliefs when science proves me wrong", that does not make me less dogmatic. The idea can't be proven wrong.

If you tried to show me that there was no teapot, I could always claim your telescope is not pointed at the right area, or isn't powerful enough.

The burden of proof is on those who believe in reincarnation, and other mythical ideas to prove them. Science cannot "prove a negative", it can only work with the supposed evidence brought forward by those making the claim.

[–]linearcore -1 points0 points ago

His name is not "His Holiness Blah Blah."

It is Lhamo Dondrub. Stop propping up that theocratic garbage people think is a name.

[–]HamsterGuard -1 points0 points ago

He just took off his glasses.

[–]totallytesla -1 points0 points ago

It sounds lovely. Of course, science can't "disprove" anything. All it can do is say that some theory does not match the available data, so there's always an out for that statement.

[–]knurdshogun 2 points3 points ago

Actually science can disprove many things... it just can't prove anything.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points ago

If this was true Buddhism would not exist.