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all 31 comments

[–]irishmann313 13 points14 points ago

repost

[–]LewisKiniski 2 points3 points ago

Fucking stop this. This isn't for this community. Yes, people who value common decency are good. The IT this community cares about, is the idea that there is no god. People in this church might value common decency, but they DON'T FUCKING GET IT. Get this shit out of here.

[–]YzermanToLidstrom 8 points9 points ago*

Oh please. I'm tired of /r/atheism's love for moderates.

EDIT: tl;dr:

Moderates beliefs are just as insane as funnies beliefs.

Moderates want it to be taboo to criticise religion, not being able to criticise religion is dangerous.

Moderates are guilty of cherry picking.

--------------------------------

Yes, moderates are better than fundies. I'd rather have every religious people in the world be moderates rather than fundamentalists. But there are two main problems with moderates. First, they make the world safe for fundies. Two, they're guilty of being intellectually dishonest.

Moderates make the world safe for extremists because moderates want religion and religious views respected. I agree that most moderates are good people, but unfortunately they have made it taboo to criticise religion.

If we can't criticise religion we're telling ourselves faith is a good enough reason to believe in something. This will just make it difficult for us when we encounter groups or people who say "my faith tells me we should kill people". Because it's so taboo to criticise faith we then start to blame things that are not responsible for atrocities that were committed in the name of religion. Either that or we ignore the issue completely.

There are many people who think that the terrorists in the Middle East are acting the way they do because of political factors, or socio-economic factors, and of course neither are responsible.

Look at the 9/11 hijackers. They were wealthy and were educated in western universities; and if what they were doing was politically motivated because of occupation by foreign forces, we should be seeing Buddhist monks who suicide bomb Chinese government buildings. We don't see monks blowing themselves up though because in Buddhism using violence isn't a part of their beliefs. In Monotheism, it is. These terrorist, the people who shoot up abortion clinics and the other religious crazies have spent large amounts of time talking to religious leaders, and studying religious texts to come to the conclusion that what they would do would be supported by a divine being.

Secondly, moderates are also intellectually dishonest. Sorry, but saying "I'm not insane" doesn't make your beliefs any less crazy then the beliefs of a fundamentalists. Moderates and fundies believe in the same holy books they believe in the same deity. But the difference between a moderate and a fundie is that fundies show some sort of consistency. If it's in their holy book then yeah they probably believe it. Moderates on the other hand pick and choose to what they believe in then they ignore that parts that their world view doesn't agree with.

If you're a moderate who says "I support gay marriage", or anything else that goes against biblical law. You're cherry picking. Your holy book tells you that homosexuality is prohibited. If you want people to respect your philosophy don't adapt a philosophy that hold barbaric views. If you chose to adapt such a philosophy then don't act like you have the authority to pick which verse are valid and which ones aren't.

We should respect people if they can show us that they are good people, regardless of weather or not they're religious. But we shouldn't give any heighten amount of respect to religious beliefs.

[–]oldtimehobo 0 points1 point ago

Tl;dr

[–]YzermanToLidstrom 1 point2 points ago

Added a tl;dr to my original post.

[–]TheRedMambo 0 points1 point ago

I don't know how this post had anything to do with moderates. It wasn't a moderate sentiment. It was a sentiment from a logical perspective. We should respect good people regardless of their creed, rather than picking one creed and saying that is where good people come from.

Moderates are guilty of cherry picking.

Regardless of the sentiment being misplaced, I can't help but notice that word you used. Cherry Picking. I hear that quite a bit. The more you use it the less it makes sense in this context. People choose to believe what they believe, no matter whether they pick from a holy book or use "The Frog and the Toad" and scripture, it is their decision. To the same fact, you cherry picked by claiming that other's cherry picked. If I you were to respect Aristotle's words, all of them, you would believe thatwomen are less superior beings and deserve less respect. It doesn't mean I'm cherry picking when I pick a few passages from Aristotle that speak to me.

A bit off topic, but that bugs me.

Back on topic.

We should respect people if they can show us that they are good people, regardless of weather or not they're religious. But we shouldn't give any heighten amount of respect to religious beliefs.

Respect should be given to people with a creed regardless of where it came from. If the person is a good person because of their religion, you should have a heightened respect for them, because they are doing good. Moderates will always and should always be a thing, because the world needs moderation in order to make sense of all sides. If the United States was made up of Democrats and Republicans, we would get absolutely nowhere. The moderates are the ones who find compromise. The moderates aren't being intellectually dishonest, they are listening to both sides before coming to an intellectual conclusion. You have the authority, because you are a free man and free thinker, to believe that Aristotle was right when he said women shouldn't be respected, that is your right. But it doesn't mean that you're right.

If we're being specific to religion, the moderates are also important for finding the fine lines between what is religiously sound and what is downright crazy. Your use of the example of the 9/11 terrorists makes no sense to the point because they never had the moderate standpoint. They will always be extremists because they have no opposing side. They did as they saw fit, only listening to the judgement of their bosses, not questioning, as moderates do.

Moderates want it to be taboo to criticise religion, not being able to criticise religion is dangerous.

What? Moderates are the baseline for criticizing religion. Their's and, especially, others. They do it more than r/atheism. Need proof? Go to any religious blog, or even that of r/Christianity. You will spot it rather quickly.

I think that about wraps up my thoughts on that. But one last thing. By saying you don't like moderates, you yourself are being a moderate. Weird, right? You haven't taken a fundamental stance against it, nor have you openly lashed out toward it. Funny how that works.

[–]YzermanToLidstrom 2 points3 points ago*

The title is "They're not all crazy. These guys get it", the post is about giving moderates respect for their beliefs because their beliefs are less extreme than the beliefs of the fundamentalists.

I agree that we should respect people, regardless of what they believe as long as they are a good person. I will never lose respect for someone simply because they are religious. While I will respect Christians, and I will respect their philosophy to an extent, I will not give religion any special privileges.

If I you were to respect Aristotle's words, all of them, you would believe thatwomen are less superior beings and deserve less respect. It doesn't mean I'm cherry picking when I pick a few passages from Aristotle that speak to me.

Nobody believes that Aristotle is a moral authority. Nobody believes that what Aristotle said was inspired by some sort of divine wisdom. On the other hand, billions of people believe that the holy texts of monotheism are a moral authority. Millions believe that there are humans who are a moral authority because that human has the support of a divine being. There are people think that actions like burning people alive for the imaginary crime of witchcraft is okay because it is in a book that was supposedly inspired by the divine, and is a book that should be a moral guideline.

I used the 9/11 hijackers as an example of how dangerous religion can be. I know that they were never moderate, but they did what they did because they believed their actions had the support of a divine being. If moderates make it taboo to criticise religion, then we are being held hostage to the extremists.

What? Moderates are the baseline for criticizing religion. Their's and, especially, others. They do it more than r/atheism. Need proof? Go to any religious blog, or even that of r/Christianity. You will spot it rather quickly.

There are many people who want religion to have a special privilege. Atheists, and theists alike. Just look at Reddit. If there is a post that mocks, criticise, or satirises religion, then people will come out of the woodworks to tell the person how much of a jerk they are.

Society has accepted religion as the only part of a person's world view you can not criticise. You can mock the opposing political party all day, no one will call you a jerk for it, you can mock opposing sports teams, and people won't get angry about it. But when religion is placed under scrutiny, then people get up in arms about it. There is no good reason why religion deserves the amount of privilege it gets.

I think that about wraps up my thoughts on that. But one last thing. By saying you don't like moderates, you yourself are being a moderate. Weird, right? You haven't taken a fundamental stance against it, nor have you openly lashed out toward it. Funny how that works.

My post is clearly about religious moderates. Also, I never said I dislike moderates, I dislike their philosophy.

[–]TheRedMambo 0 points1 point ago

I can agree on some of what you say, though I disagree on our definitions of moderate philosophy and how it protects extremists. I do not believe society protects these religions as you say. Religious people and Atheists alike mock religion on a day to day basis and only get slander from eachother. That's not slander from society, but from each individual. Though there is a line that is often crossed between slander and being downright disrespectful. Not everyone talks like a mediator, like perhaps that of Neil Tyson, who doesn't take any pertinent stance on atheism or religion. If everyone talked like Tyson than everyone would be a moderate to their own rights.

There are many people who want religion to have a special privilege. Atheists, and theists alike. Just look at Reddit. If there is a post that mocks, criticise, or satirises religion, then people will come out of the woodworks to tell the person how much of a jerk they are.

Because that line that I was talking about does get crossed quite often on Reddit. Much of what r/atheism says isn't intellectual conversation on theology or atheology, but the use of satirical and downright belligerent stuff that takes swings at Religions, usually with a strong sense of entitlement. "I think you're an idiot, here's why" isn't the way to talk to a person, especially about their varying beliefs. Discussing it in a cool, down to earth manner is how you talk to people with beliefs different from your's. Nothin gets accomplished when crap is being slung about. Instead of people talking about their beliefs for the right reasons, they simply bash religion for psychological approval. That's not how things work in society. People gain respect for keeping a cool moderate stance on things like politics and religions, not for telling them how awful they are.

In the point to Aristotle, yes, people do use him as moral authority. They have him labeled as a philosopher. But that is way off topic. We were talking about Cherry Picking, and I was talking about how the word should stop being used in the context about what people should believe. People take knowledge from scripture the same as they take knowledge from any other book. It's all with interpretation. If they take it literally, than that is up to them. There is good word in the bible as well as there is bad. Taking things from interpretation is not the same a cherry picking. Cherry picking would be taking two words out of a mans speech and saying he want to kill your first born.

[–]PoliticallyConcerned -2 points-1 points ago*

Moderates beliefs are just as insane as funnies beliefs.

Who cares. They have the right to believe whatever they want.

Moderates want it to be taboo to criticise religion, not being able to criticise religion is dangerous.

Generalize much? Why, you must know them all, to make such a sweeping statement.

Moderates are guilty of cherry picking.

They are also guilty of being human, how dare they.

Besides, this isn't a "love" for a certain type of religious person, this is an appreciation of a fair and pluralistic ideal that is put out by like minded (to a degree) humans that want to value each other. The distinction in the sentiment is kind and hateful, it is quite clear that the atheist and Christian are not at the fore.

[–]YzermanToLidstrom 1 point2 points ago

Who cares. They have the right to believe whatever they want.

Never said they shouldn't have the right to believe what they want. I believe that religious freedom is a basic human right.

Just as it is their right to hold their beleifs, it should be everyone's right to critise religion. But society gets up in arms when religion is placed under scrutiney. There is no good reason why critism of religion should be taboo.

Generalize much? Why, you must know them all, to make such a sweeping statement.

Religion being given special privileges, is unfortunately true. It got those special privileges because moderates want their faith to be respected. I have no problem with respecting faith, but I do have a problem with giving religion an unreasonable amount of respect.

They are also guilty of being human, how dare they.

If you don't think that moderates blatantly cherry picking warrants criticism then you're allowing moderates to get away with being intellectually dishonest.

[–]aggyjean 2 points3 points ago

This. Picture. Again.

I have seen this photo from various angles reposted in every desolate corner of this dry, cracked expanse we call the Internet.

It's time to let it go people.

[–]SuperWalter[S] -1 points0 points ago

Not until its sweet reservoirs of Karma are all dried up.

[–]mouseparty 3 points4 points ago

except god still doesn't exist.

[–]unhelpful_commenter 1 point2 points ago

God likes the things I like, and hates the things I hate! Hooray religion!

[–]Jagjamin 1 point2 points ago

It's a shame that isn't what the bible says, otherwise they'd have a point.

[–]Valendr0s 0 points1 point ago

I love how they all seem to think they know what god wants (or what he hates)

[–]oozles 0 points1 point ago

Except which one goes to hell forever and is tortured in a way so horrible no mortal on Earth could comprehend it.

The kind person who rejects Christ.

[–]kalliopehm 0 points1 point ago

This is from Portland, Oregon, yes? I think I drove past this the other day...

[–]PoliticallyConcerned 0 points1 point ago

I notice it's always Methodists...

[–]routari 0 points1 point ago

Oh look, an opinion of me from people who believe in bullshit.

[–]horse-pheathers 0 points1 point ago

No...they're still crazy. This is just 'livable' crazy versus the sort that needs to be locked up in a padded cell.

[–]iBro53 0 points1 point ago

This is a good sentiment. But I'm still clueless as to how anyone knows what god really prefers.

[–]darkNergy 0 points1 point ago

Get what? That there is no actual reason or evidence to believe in deities? I don't think they get it.

[–]Mackeja 0 points1 point ago

Fucking repost

[–]Oniberous 0 points1 point ago

rrrrreeeeeeppppoooossssttttt

[–]Samneal_87 0 points1 point ago

Too bad us atheists will still go to hell

[–]xievon -1 points0 points ago*

Like almost all other fake generated signs - this ones letters don't even line up to the placeholders. Why post?

Not only is this fake, it would also be arguable from a christians theological point of view. Just annoying.

Edit: It is real sorry, just have seen so many fake ones from church sign generators I jumped to a [wrong] conclusion.

BTW the letters aren't in their place holders, so it still looks fake to me!

[–]oozles 0 points1 point ago

The continuity of the reflection indicates otherwise.

But you must know so much about signs.

[–]GuitarGuru2001 0 points1 point ago

Yeah its not fake, although I agree with you on the theology (see link). Church posted it to their facebook page, pastor answered objections.

Good skepticism though.

[–]LewisKiniski 0 points1 point ago

It's not good skepticism. It's fucking pointless. It's entirely within the realm of possibility that a church sign have these words on it. If the picture wasn't real, there are still hundreds of thousands of churches whose signs could have those exact words. The discussion occurs based on the idea the picture conveys. There's no meaningful difference between "[What if | There is] a church sign [said | that says] this."

When people nitpick stupid shit, it takes away from the message they're trying to convey. It cheapens the discussion and prevents real progress from being made. If you're arguing with a friend, and he misspeaks... don't jump around bat shit crazy pointing out the mistake... let him correct himself, say what he means, and argue against his point. That's how progress is made.

tl;dr - The original commenter is a fucking moron and shouldn't be encouraged. Also, fuck whoever posts this picture to r/atheism - past, present, and future.

[–]xievon 0 points1 point ago

Angry mate? Maybe I'm just sick of fake sign generators and I got caught out by the fact that for once it is a real one. I am sorry though, a quick look made it look like generated one and no link to pastor / church or facebook was in the comments.