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[–]NancyGracesTesticles 577 points578 points ago

The "Entry Level" part is referring to the pay.

[–]CerpinTaxes 132 points133 points ago*

If you're getting entry level pay shouldn't it be an entry position too?

[–]mindaika 120 points121 points ago

"Should be" is not "is." It's the free market at work: why give out experienced salaries when you can give out entry level salaries and still get senior level persons?

[–]Archangelus 78 points79 points ago

When I was in high school, I had to compete with 30-40 year olds with IT degrees for my $8/hour after-school job.

I only got the job because they decided to hire a student...

[–]sab669 64 points65 points ago

No, you got the job because you were in highschool and they'd have a cashier for 4+ years. 30-40 year olds with degrees could be in and out before they finish training.

[–]Archangelus 59 points60 points ago

I was already 16 when I applied, so they only got two years out of it, and it was a tech job (where did you get cashier?). But yeah, every employer is desperate to get a few years out of their workers, or else employ for free (believe it or not, a college student joined me later and earned college credit as MY assistant, which disturbed me because I was like 17 and he was 23).

[–]FBIorange 4 points5 points ago

Why do I hear so much about med students and their internship "slavery"? Is this untrue?

[–]odd84 16 points17 points ago

If any of his "assistant" jobs were actual work an employee would otherwise be doing, and otherwise not educational and for his benefit instead of the employer, then he is owed minimum wage. You cannot have someone do an employee's job for the employer's benefit without pay, even if you try to call them an assistant, or an intern, or a coop, or anything else -- state laws will define what's labor, not the employer, and all labor is paid at least minimum wage. The state cares too -- because they're owed payroll taxes. So if it's reported, they'll investigate 100% of the time.

[–]Archangelus 8 points9 points ago

That may explain why he was a lazy fuck who sat around trying to hard reset the BIOS on our HP desktops (kids would often set passwords on them in high school, and removing the CMOS battery didn't help, nor did applying an electrical shock to certain areas and other weird stuff he tried, because HP is a total bitch).

Thanks to me, they're all password protected by the school now so it won't happen any more :)

And no, I have no idea why they didn't feel the need to do this in the first place.

[–]funkgerm 3 points4 points ago

They didn't have jumper resets?

[–]tophermeyer 4 points5 points ago

I don't think that's entirely true.

What would be the benefit for companies to even have internships if they weren't allowed to get some productivity out of the interns?

If the work is being done as part of an accredited degree program I'm reasonably certain students can work for free. I know this because I worked 8-10 hours unpaid in a lab as an undergrad. As do a lot of people.

[–]Ze_Carioca 9 points10 points ago

Employers dont like to hire anymore since they have to give some health benefits to the employee. Instead they contract now.

[–]KnightKrawler 19 points20 points ago

Or call them part-time employees, and schedule them for 39 hours a week (I'm looking at you Disney.)

[–]SuperBicycleTony 6 points7 points ago

I think you underestimate turnover among high school workers and overestimate the level of training involved in cashier work.

[–]Archangelus 13 points14 points ago

Where is this cashier conversation coming from @___@ I didn't even realize schools had cash registers except in the cafeterias...

[–]IAMA_Mac 10 points11 points ago

We didn't even have that. All we had was a keypad, enter your 4-12 digit pin number you set and it deducted from your balance, which was paid to the school via a check at the beginning of each month, unless you had free lunch, which your pin would show. Apparently the parents complained that the kids were starving when they got home from not getting enough to eat, but turned out the kids were pocketing the cash and not eating or something. Oh well, it was cool, no pictures or anything just approved or denied so I could get my friends something to eat if they had no money by just saying use mine, 8675309.

[–]ttk2 15 points16 points ago

The "free market" is described as the economic structure that forms in the absence of any regulations of voluntary interactions. Since markets are so heavily interconnected there can be no such thing as a free market in an economy with government regulations of any kind in any sector. Therefore every market in every nation on earth is still a regulated market.

Or in the words of the OP

That phrase, it does not mean what you think it means.

[–]mindaika 2 points3 points ago

So to sum up, the 'unregulated free market' is just a fantasy that only exists on paper.

[–]jenchan13 6 points7 points ago

No. Its called a unpaid internship now.

[–]CerpinTaxes 16 points17 points ago

I find it weird that a degree level education in the field you are trying to get a job in is seen as "inadequate" for you to be able to do that job.

So that means that either the education you're paying for isn't good enough, or employers don't recognise qualifications.

[–]drabhtor 1 point2 points ago

Or, others have the same qualifications, plus work experience.

[–]Alanna77 2 points3 points ago

Right now there are a lot of ridiculously overqualified people applying for lower-level positions, so they can afford to be picky in who they choose to hire. Unfortunately, this has led to a situation in which a degree is no longer enough. You have to have a degree and experience, or in some cases, just a crazy amount of experience, to get hired for these "entry-level" positions. Solution? Unpaid work that'll give you experience but nothing else.

I hate this set-up, but I am glad that my school is helping me find a place to do an unpaid internship next year. I've been told that one of the places they like to send us to loves to hire people from my school right out of graduation if they intern with them while in school.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

While the "experience" part could actually refer to use of the tools or protocols for the job, not necessarily the same job as you are applying for

[–]colloquialism86 330 points331 points ago

My Dad hires new college grads in the IT industry. He told me, these secrets three:
1. "3-5 years" realistically translated, means 1.5-4 years.
2. "Experience" can easily mean the time you spent getting educated in the job requirements area specified in the job listing.
3. Even if you only legitimately have 75% or less of the requirements necessary, a GOOD COVER LETTER will jump you ahead of many others who are technically, "more qualified" than you.
How do I know these secrets to be true? I applied for 6 positions in this exact manner out of college, I got 5 interviews and 2 job offers.

[–]BruceChalupa 115 points116 points ago

Thanks for that. I hate writing cover letters, but they are a necessary evil.

That said: "'3-5 years' realistically translated, means 1.5-4 years," is still unbelievably frustrating doublespeak.

[–]tkw954 110 points111 points ago

You have to remember that a help wanted ad is a wish list, not a firm list of requirements.

[–]detorn 64 points65 points ago

many are including the line "don't apply unless" now

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points ago

Doesn't matter. Apply anyways.

[–]iams3b 7 points8 points ago

I believe it's because they're searching for people who are confident in their abilities. They're trying to scare away people who would otherwise think "maybe I can do this job, idk might as well try to apply..."

[–]nermid 17 points18 points ago

Honestly, when they start listing off ridiculous requirements for shit, like requiring a Doctorate in a hard science for an entry-level job in the publishing industry (fucking really?), I'm so much more likely to apply, just because I know nobody with the "do not apply unless" qualifications would ever settle for this kind of position.

So, I think, "It's entirely possible that I'll be the only person who actually applies."

[–]EltonJuan 11 points12 points ago

This sounds like every date I've ever been on. She'll pretty much talk about how important things I hate are to her and will get confused when I never ask her out a second time.

That being said, I usually jump to the conclusion that everyone hates compromise.

[–]tophermeyer 9 points10 points ago

Sometimes. It depends on the organization and hiring manager.

Often you're right job reqs are put out there as an ideal, but they're really looking for only a few key items off the list. Sometimes (in large organizations with really highly defined job functions) those reqs are absolutely required.

There's a little bit of science behind the specificity of job requirements. If I say I want, for example, 4.5 years of application administration you can bet I want that exactly. If I say I want 3-5 years of success as a thought leader and creative innovator, I really have no idea what I want and I'm waiting for a candidate to wow me.

[–]Narrative_Causality 16 points17 points ago

(A help wanted ad is a wish list, not a firm list of requirements.)

Sometimes.

There's no reason not to try, in either event. What are they going to do, fire you for trying?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

Right! Why can't recruiters just write plainly 1.5-4? Surely they don't want any doublespeak.

For my part, Social media was a good tool for my own job hunting, and until now (that I have job) companies still call me for interview invites.

[–]Capt_Underpants 2 points3 points ago

Prevent you from acquiring the job when you come back with the right requirements.

[–]Garridy 2 points3 points ago

Some companies actually tell you that you only get one shot at applying and if you don't make it, you never will again.

[–]Pit_of_Death 8 points9 points ago

These days, given the high number of applicants for most skilled positions, it is a firm list...it's just not always explicitly stated. Take it from someone who has the past 3 years of unemployment and job searching knowledge under his belt. When people say it is tough out there, it's the truth...especially for those with less work experience and long-term unemployment to deal with.

[–]SpudgeBoy 7 points8 points ago

Yeah, people still talk about looking for a job like it's the '90s and things are still going swimmingly. It is shit out there. But the good news is many of the people I know who lost their jobs are now getting interviews, so maybe things are starting to head in the right direction. Good luck on your job search. I hope you find something soon. I just started a new job on Monday, after almost two years.

[–]mmb2ba 7 points8 points ago

Whenever I see somebody say "just get a job" I generally assume they haven't sent out an application since 1997.

[–]mongobongodog 25 points26 points ago

I saw a massive increase in the number of calls I was getting when I started using bullet points on my cover letter.

As someone who now hires a lot of people, I hate reading them. The easier you can make it for me, the more likely I am to like you. It's UX 101.

[–]BoringUsername1 30 points31 points ago

Can you give me an example as to how you set up your cover letter format with bullet points? Do you just say:

*Hello business,

I am qualified because:

-This

-This

-And this

I think you should hire me because I am:

-This

-This

-And this.

Respectfully Yours,

Unexperienced Person With 3-5 years of experience.*

[–]Solomaxwell6 52 points53 points ago

  • Hello business
  • I am a
  • cool guy
  • Please give me a job
  • Thanks.

[–]mongobongodog 47 points48 points ago

To Whom It May Concern: / [Name of Person]:

I'd be ideally suited to the position of [position name] for the following reasons:

  • Bullet one. A sentence or two. Should be three lines or less. Most relevant info to this position.

  • Bullet two. Same as bullet one but different experience.

  • Bullet three. Same as two (obviously with different info).

  • Bullet four. Relevant experience from an older position or study.

I look forward to discussing the role with you further in an interview. I can be reached on [phone number] or at [email address].

Kind regards,

[Your fuckin name]


Make sure all the info is relevant. Don't add content for the sake of adding content. Even the dumbest employer will notice this. Two really useful bullets is more useful than four rambling ones. Don't use words to make you sound smart. Write in any way that's comfortable. Sound confident but not arrogant. Spin the truth – everyone else will be. Read back over it as if you're an employer. Would you like you? Is it easy to read? Is the line spacing right (this is a usability thing, not aesthetic)?

And don't be worried if it's only 2/3rds of a page. This is 100% fine.

[–]n0rs3n0rdic 2 points3 points ago

hello business,

blah blah this is me

your requirements:

-1

-2

-3

my qualifications:

-1

-2

-3

you should hire me because...

sign-off

[–]joltyness 7 points8 points ago

Isn't a cover letter with bullet points essentially the same thing as a resume?

[–]mongobongodog 4 points5 points ago

Not really. It's speaking directly to the requirements of the job using sentences. A resume is a work and education history. It's more generic. Bullets are simply an effective way of speaking to the requirements of a position. Both resume and cover letter should perform different tasks but still work in tandem.

[–]The_Law_of_Pizza 26 points27 points ago

Warning:

I bet this works better in math and science fields than it does in other fields. I'm a law student, and if I put bullet points on my cover letters my career adviser would probably have a heart attack. For us, our cover letters serve as single-page writing samples as much as they do explanations of our talents and what we bring to the table.

[–]imnotsureifyouknowth 14 points15 points ago

Journalism student here, you're correct sir.

[–]Narrative_Causality 21 points22 points ago*

And this is why using a cover letter to decide who to hire is completely balls-to-the-walls retarded. The formatting of someone's cover letter should not be a major factor in if you're going to hire someone or not.

:Edit for formatting:

[–]5yrup 16 points17 points ago*

It shouldn't be, but when you have a stack of resumes that are nearly identical its little things like this that make you stand out.

Just remember: You truly aren't special. There are at least a dozen other people out there that looks just like you on paper.

[–]imnotsureifyouknowth 2 points3 points ago

if the resumes are identical, isn't that why a good cover letters make a difference???

[–]5yrup 2 points3 points ago

Well, I was agreeing that there should be more that determines who gets the job, such as extensive interviewing and true evaluations of each person but things like this are not practical when you are dealing with even 10+ people applying for the job.

So, in the real world its how people get the jobs. I'm not saying that its right, I'm just saying that's how it is.

[–]Freater 5 points6 points ago*

Yeah, in fact why use screenings at all? Just bring every applicant in for an interview. Who cares if there are hundreds, you shouldn't accidentally turn anyone qualified away with arbitrary rules in a desperate attempt to reduce the applicant pool to something that HR can actually manage.

Edit: Looks like I Poe's Lawed myself. The above was sarcasm.

[–]ameoba 2 points3 points ago

Pretty much standard practice for me. If they use bullet points in their requirements, I'll respond to each of them with a quick sentence or two. Standard letter for me is :

  • opening fluff
  • bullet points
  • extra stuff to make me awesome

[–]SonicFlash01 6 points7 points ago

I realized that a lot of the jobs I was applying for only differed in the address, job title, and languages mentioned in the posting, so I typically kept one or two cover letters and edited them slightly.

The cover letter itself was good, I think; why bother reinventing the wheel every time?

[–]dragoneye 9 points10 points ago

Think of it this way, a 3-5 year requirement is the employers way of self weeding out potential applicants that don't have the confidence to apply. Literally the worst thing that is going to happen is they say no.

The real frustrating one I have found are "senior" positions that list a minimum of 3 years of experience...

[–]Narrative_Causality 19 points20 points ago

Literally the worst thing that is going to happen is they say no.

When I get nervous about applying to a potential job I always tell myself "What are they going to do, fire me?"

[–]DogfoodEnforcer 3 points4 points ago

Cover letters are the bane of my existence at the moment. Just graduating (handed in last two papers today!) and hunting for a job. I don't know how many days I've spent just writing cover letters...but as you said...a necessary evil.

[–]bkay17 45 points46 points ago

When did you get out of college that getting a job was so easy? I graduated with a 3.4 GPA in Chemical Engineering from Georgia Tech, applied for over 360 positions in 43 states and 3 countries, got about 6 phone interviews, 3 of those followed up to in-person interviews, and none of those turned into job offers.

I only got a job because I have a friend who works in the oilfield in West Texas and they were desperate to hire anybody who was willing to live in West Texas and had more than a high school education.

[–]Nickbou 16 points17 points ago

It's always nice to see another ramblin' wreck from Georgia Tech on here. :)

[–]thelittleking 1 point2 points ago

Ooh ooh, can I join in on the love?

(Piss on 'em, etc etc)

[–]merkey 9 points10 points ago

I lost count of the number of positions I applied to, but it was in the hundreds as well. Only got 2-3 quick phone interviews, and that was mostly to tell me I wasn't qualified enough for the position but 'check our website for more positions!! :)'.

[–]TacticalToast 4 points5 points ago

As someone who's been there, done that (BS/MS MechE)...you might want to try looking into contract positions. I'm not saying they pay well (most usually don't) but it helped a bunch of my friends get full-time positions at the same company they were contracting at. If you don't end up with a full-time offer you have the experience other positions are looking for. Just a thought. Keep your head up, it gets better.

[–]ameoba 12 points13 points ago

This is why you get internships.

[–]kyuubi42 9 points10 points ago*

This. It has never been about what you know, You graduated with at least a dozen or so people who on paper have approximately the same skill set you do. Nationwide there might be 3-4000 people graduating with that same skill set. There were more last year, and there will be more again next year.

It's all about who you know.

[–]ameoba 4 points5 points ago

Even without the contacts made through the position, it puts you in a position where you have some real world experience on your resume. You're not just some John Doe with a degree.

[–]TacticalToast 2 points3 points ago

Not trying to shoot you down or anything but Co-Ops are MUCH better if you have the opportunity.

[–]Anderfail 26 points27 points ago

The cover letter stuff is the exact opposite of what i've heard. Most people don't give two shits about them and throw them away as soon as they get them. The reason? Everyone's cover letter is full of fluff, well written and totally irrelevant to the job.

The 1st half of the 1st page of your resume is BY FAR the most important thing. That is, if it's important it should be in that section. Your professional profile (description of your background) is thr most important part of your resume.

I'm not saying you shouldn't write a cover letter and you shouldn't put effort into it because they will notice if you don't. I'm just saying that they are irrelevant to the actual hiring.

[–]tophermeyer 11 points12 points ago

The top left quadrant is where you need to be putting attractive information.

I do Organizational Development (recruitment and selection is sometimes part of that). I've seen studies where they have recruiters review stacks of resumes and use some eye tracking tools to capture what they look at. They're often visualized with some really neat heatmaps, and by far the most attention is paid to the top left quadrant of the resume.

Relevant factoid: When sifting through large numbers of resumes for jobs, most recruiters will spend as little as 15 seconds on each resume before deciding to pursue the candidate or not. For any document you're sending someone you have got to get your message across in 15 seconds or you're not getting noticed.

[–]SchmuckDuck 7 points8 points ago

thank you for that link, i have to write a cover letter for some internships. This just made it a lot simpler, have an upvote

[–]NancyGracesTesticles 8 points9 points ago

Technically, you should be writing some cover letters for some internships.

[–]mashles 7 points8 points ago

I generally call up any resumes I think look half decent and ask them a few tough technical questions on the stuff they have in their resume (IT again), if they can answer the questions then great, we talk more and get them in for an in person interview. If they can't, then we usually still talk a bit and I tell them I will call them back the next day and ask the same questions, and hope for pretty in-depth answers. If they did some research and can answer my questions satisfactorily then I will usually set up the in person interview.

I'm always shocked how many people don't even bother doing any research, they just say they didn't get time or something when I call back, and it tends to be the people who have more years experience as they feel more entitled/less motivated... exactly the people I want to avoid, even if they have 10+ years experience.

[–]colloquialism86 4 points5 points ago

The first thing that every company has said to me when i was contacted from my submitted CV/resume, was some form of: "Thank you for demonstrating (in your cover letter) that you understand what our company does, and what you are actually applying for". Most people on the job hunt employ the "quantity over quality" approach to actually applying for positions. My Dad told me: 'If you spend 3-4 hours job hunting, and you end up sending out more than 4-6 applications, you're not focusing enough on the detail/quality of your individual cover letter. (in the IT sector at least)'.

[–]bobcatgoldthwait 19 points20 points ago

There are also those jobs that are extremely rigid about their experience requirements. I recently interviewed for a job, performed very well, and was later told that they were going to hire me until they reviewed my resume more clearly and realized that I only had nine months experience (as opposed to the one year required, listed on the job posting). Their policy stated that they flat out could not hire me based solely on that.

[–]DrSausage 37 points38 points ago

I wouldn't buy that explanation.

[–]ameoba 2 points3 points ago

It depends on the organization - if it's government and/or unions are involved, they've gotta be pretty exact on some of this stuff.

[–]bobcatgoldthwait 8 points9 points ago

I knew someone in the organization, connected to the hiring process. It's probably the only reason I got the interview to start with. They're even trying to find a way to get me in there anyway (but I'm not holding out hope). That's definitely they're reason for not hiring me.

[–]FrankNStein 30 points31 points ago

[–]samiam3 19 points20 points ago

Yep. Sounds like they made the right choice to not hire.

[–]EthicalReasoning 19 points20 points ago

I applied for 6 positions in this exact manner out of college, I got 5 interviews and 2 job offers.

(in 1976)

[–]Should_Not_Comment 2 points3 points ago

What's his/your opinion on thank you letters after interviews? I wrote my first one for the job I currently have and I wonder if it helped seal the deal.

[–]gary88 19 points20 points ago

HR guy here:

ALWAYS send a thank you note. It makes a difference and shows you are willing to put in that extra bit of effort.

[–]onlyonequestion 7 points8 points ago

Job searching guy here: Do you send the note to the HR? To people who interviewed you? who do you send it to? and how do you format such a letter?

[–]RaiderRaiderBravo 5 points6 points ago

Try to grab cards / write the names down of people at the interview and write thank you letters to them.

[–]tophermeyer 6 points7 points ago

Another HR guy here. The etiquette is usually to send notes to everybody you met with (to thank them for their time). At minimum though you should be hitting up your HR person/Recruiter and the manager responsible for the hiring decision. E-mail is becoming widely acceptable, but some people might still appreciate a handwritten note.

They can usually be pretty brief. Something I like to see is in a thank you to the hiring manager, they bring up additional points from the interview or try to clarify responses they felt were fuzzy. It demonstrates the person is putting thought into the process and their possible future relationship with that person.

[–]cubanjew 3 points4 points ago

Does it make a difference be it e-mail or snail mail? What can you say without sounding like a complete suck-up or sounding arrogant? "Thanks for giving me the opportunity to interview with you. I am very excited about any possible future work endeavors with your company" ?

[–]gary88 8 points9 points ago

If you corresponded with the company primarily via email before the interview, then emailing a note is fine. Otherwise type one up and snail mail it.

Keep it basic but to the point. Tell them you appreciate them taking the time to interview you, while restating while you believe you would be a good fit for the job. Make sure you let the know you're very interested and enthusiastic.

[–]samyosemite 2 points3 points ago

I wouldn't snail mail, I would get that email off as quick as possible. By the time your thank you letter arrives in the mail, they may have already made a decision.

[–]InappropriateIcicle 2 points3 points ago

This is what I did after my interview last week, I got the job!

[–]MarginalMeaning 3 points4 points ago

Absolutely true. I applied for a contractor position that asked for 2 years of experience. I had no actual on the job experience, but my practical courses I took in college definitely counted from what the interviewer told me. I got the job as a fresh college grad. It was a full time hourly QA and HTML editing gig. Now I work a salaried position as a BSA. This was all within the past year or so.

[–]ashdrewness 8 points9 points ago

I work in IT as well and have performed several technical interviews as well as do some recruiting. One thing I'd like to add to your fathers statement is CERTIFICATIONS, CERTIFICATIONS, CERTIFICATIONS!!! Hate to be annoying but it's true. I work for one of the largest IT Services companies in the world and we absolutely care about IT certs. Network+, CCNA, Linux+, RHCE, MCITP, VCP, etc. I've seen new hires out of college make $26 an hour instead of $17 an hour all because they had the right cert. Both recruits graduated from the same IT vocational school with an AAS, but one had the certs. Some companies may not put as much emphasis on certs, but my employer does and so does several other IT consulting companies I've worked for. In my opinion there's NO reason why a young candidate in IT shouldn't have a year or two experience. That experience doesn't necessarily have to be in the workforce but building your own lab and configuring/designing/testing your environment. Whether your field is programming, networking, Microsoft, Red Hat, VMWare, or whatever, you can have at least some experience going into a technical interview and an opportunity to impress the person doing your technical interview (such as myself).

[–]colloquialism86 2 points3 points ago

YES!!! Thank you for posting this! I left my house right after submitting my comment, and I was going to edit my post to include this.

[–]Sabbatai 35 points36 points ago

Responsibilities: Installs Windows Operating Software [sic] on various desktop computers.

Requires Bachelor's Degree and 3-5 years job related experience.

Part time, pay dependent upon qualifications, $9-10 an hour. No benefits.


Actual job description for which I submitted an application out of desperation.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points ago

easiest job ever. insert cd, say yes to a bunch of prompts and watch it install.

[–]wickedang3l 12 points13 points ago

Unfortunately, that's probably about 2% of the actual responsibilities of the job (Coincidentally, the only 2% they're willing to pay for).

[–]ZOMBIE_POTATO_SALAD 11 points12 points ago

Can you even imagine doing this 8 hours a day?

[–]yangx 2 points3 points ago

Can you imagine living on the streets?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

can you imagine some huge gross bug that's like all hairy and has huge mouth pincher things?

[–]RIPoldAccount 71 points72 points ago

Always cut the requirements of a job in half. Anyone who meets the qualification for a job most likely will not apply because they want a higher level job. 3-5 years = 1-2 years.

EDIT: This is not true for all but for most.

[–]menomenaa 11 points12 points ago

I also considered "entry-level" to mean an entry into the work force, post-grad, but you better have been fucking doing work during school that you can count as an experience.

I was an English major (famously un-employable major) but I worked at a lit mag during college. Therefore I got an "entry-level" job within a couple of months of graduating, but had 3 years experience while at college.

It sounds like I'm bragging, or something, but with any major, I assume you're doing research or assistant-ships or something besides academics that relates to your major. That counts for the work experience.

[–]Nodonn226 31 points32 points ago

1-2 years experience is still not entry level, however.

[–]MarginalMeaning 14 points15 points ago

Depends. The job I got hired for took the courses I took in college/projects I worked on as that experience. I work in IT however, and most of the projects I did in college were practical applications that could be used in a real business environment.

[–]tophermeyer 12 points13 points ago

most of the projects I did in college were practical applications that could be used in a real business environment.

There's a lesson there for college students with the freedom to choose their own project topics. Make it applicable to the real world.

[–]5yrup 2 points3 points ago

This. I saw too many people taking their independent study/guided electives and pissed them away on things that didn't account for anything, and they had no real experience to show for it. Then they wondered why they couldn't get an engineering position.

[–]Eckish 4 points5 points ago

That experience doesn't translate to full-time work at a corporation working in the field. It means doing something other than standard course work. Internships, large school/personal projects (preferably with demos) and semi field related work that you can typically find on campus all qualify.

[–]Death24xASecond 3 points4 points ago

Okay, how legitimate is this? Is this interpretation valid? Will they seriously look at an application with an advanced degree (which often balances out practical experience) and just shy of the required "years" limit? Or will it be tossed simply because I might have 2 years when they want 3?

[–]merkey 2 points3 points ago

A lot of the hiring employers don't actually write the job requirements on the websites. So if you start asking about it, they will mostly evade answering directly and just talk about what you have done to this point.

This isn't like college applications where you need a certain GPA and SAT score to get in. It's up for interpretation and the most qualified person isn't always hired.

[–]LaserGuidedPolarBear 26 points27 points ago

I love seeing craigslist ads looking for people with graduate level degrees, 7-10 years experience, a mind blowing array of skills, and an offer of $16/hr.

Or when they want 4 years experience in a technology that's only existed for a year or two....that iss my absolute fav.

[–]Deathisfatal 6 points7 points ago

"Experienced iPhone developer wanted must have 6-7 years experience with iOS apps"

[–]rmwpnb 45 points46 points ago

This is to weed out people who think they are lacking experience. It's also so they can offer you the lowest salary range due to your "lack of experience".

[–]tophermeyer 9 points10 points ago

You're second point is important, and nobody else is bringing it up.

Setting job requirements high impacts salary negotiations. It allows them to take a candidate qualified to do the actual job, and tell them that they have to make a salary offer in line with the persons's "experience", which doesn't quite meet all of the stated requirements.

But from my contacts in HR and recruiting, these practices are set in place by leadership. Most recruiters are measured (for performance reviews) by the quality and length of service of their hires, and not by negotiated salary. Meaning that most recruiters don't give two shits about the negotiation process as long as they're hiring a decent employee that will stick around.

[–]kat_burglar 53 points54 points ago

You have to have 3 to 5 years experience today before you ever get a job. Until then it's called an internship.

[–]Archangelus 15 points16 points ago

I'm in college right now working for an IT helpdesk... does this count as experience for anything? ;-;

[–]DracoTheVampyre 58 points59 points ago

Yes! You are currently leveling up your skills in both Monotony and Listlessness, both crucial in IT jobs with regular public contact.

[–]Archangelus 14 points15 points ago

No problem, glad I could be of help, have a great day!

[–]ENKC 6 points7 points ago

If you're not subscribed to /r/talesfromtechsupport, you should be.

[–]Archangelus 5 points6 points ago*

Ooooh, thank you, that looks like my kind of place... We actually had a teacher break down in tears and sit on the floor like a toddler with her MacBook Pro last week, and all the people who get paid actual salaries had disappeared (you know, the people who get respect). Crazy stuff happens when man meets machine without knowing how things work XD

[–]ashdrewness 5 points6 points ago

Do yourself a big favor, if IT is your passion, then pick an area and get a cert while you're there. Your company might even pay for it. Network+, MCP, CCNA, etc. I hire in IT and can tell you, when scanning resumes, it's often the certs near the top that can catch my eye and make someone's go into the pile to get a face to face interview.

[–]kilo4fun 3 points4 points ago*

Shit, I got my A+ and never had time to get any other cert because I was too busy writing database apps for major utility companies.

EDIT: I'm kind of jaded about both IT and Electrical Engineering standardized testing and certifications. I'm a problem solver and I know how to find the information I need. Why the hell do I need to know the Hilbert transform or Hooke's Law for my FE exam, and why the hell do I need to know by heart the data rate for various Intel sockets and the chain limit for USB devices for A+? Those specs and formulas are easily found. All I need to know is some general path to follow and a useful method for acquiring the information I shouldn't have to memorize. IT and Engineering, even just Electrical Engineering, are too vast of fields to master. Everyone has to specialize when they need to. I'm a generalist that knows how to specialize when necessary.

[–]gonzo_au 6 points7 points ago

Yes.

[–]z3ddicus 7 points8 points ago

So, if you didn't do an internship you can never get a job?

[–]Negative__One 21 points22 points ago

NEVER.

[–]Daxx22 22 points23 points ago

Whelp, life of crime it is!

[–]Nodonn226 3 points4 points ago

Almost 2 years after receiving my aerospace degree I got a job, I can say that not doing one cuts your chances down drastically.

It sucks for those of us who had to work (in an unrelated job that pays way more than an internship) to pay our bills during college when an internship would not pay enough to live. My friends all did fine with an internship as their parents paid for everything, sadly I had to pay rent.

[–]solusolu 13 points14 points ago

I applied for and got a job that was asking for 3-5 and I had 0.

[–]Pravusmentis 4 points5 points ago

They hiring?.

[–]when_did_i_grow_up 27 points28 points ago

It's put there almost arbitrarily by HR people. If you're impressive, they'll hire you anyways.

[–]Khaibit 47 points48 points ago

My favorite "obviously written by an HR person" job requirement was from when I was looking for work shortly after getting out of college. It was 2001, and one of the requirements for this junior-level IT admin position I was looking at was:

"5+ years experience with Windows 2000"

(Yes, 5 years of experience with Windows 2000 in 2001.)

[–]pheonixblade9 15 points16 points ago

"Applicant must be a time lord"

[–]merkey 3 points4 points ago

have all my upvotes. i've had employers not know what was written in the requirements section on their website for the job i was going for.

[–]WendyLRogers3 11 points12 points ago

"We want experienced people to take a pay cut to work for us. Because we want quality work, but without paying more than minimum wage to get it."

[–]Niqulaz 2 points3 points ago

"We expect you to drop your current employer at the drop of a hat, but we demand eternal loyalty from you. If we so much as hear a whisper about you looking for other jobs, you will find security at your desk when you get back from lunch, ready to escort you from the building."

[–]ivanmarsh 12 points13 points ago

It's not half as funny as jobs that require 5,10,20 years of experience in technologies that haven't existed that long.

[–]threeLetterMeyhem 14 points15 points ago

Or requirements for internally developed apps.

One company I worked for was notorious for posting dev positions with the requirement: Must have 3-5 years experience with PPTS

PPTS was a completely internally developed project tracking system for a municipal utility company, and the job postings would never even explain the acronym.

[–]greek5576 3 points4 points ago

For something like that I would guess that they already know who will be getting the job, but they are still required to post the job publicly due to some HR policy.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points ago

needs 10 years of experience programming android

[–]boot20 2 points3 points ago

I recently saw a posting for 10 years experience with Service Now...IIRC it started around 2004.

The worst is when they mix and match the buzzwords. I saw a posting for a virtual cloud hosting administrator. What the fuck is that?

*fixed a wonky sentence

[–]rx_tacos 21 points22 points ago

This is precisely why when I'm hiring, even though we typically look for 1-2 yrs of experience I feel the need to "give the kid a chance." Some folks you can tell the hunger and passion in them that you could help coach them to be a good performer.

Sometimes they struggle a little bit at first if other have some kind of base in the industry, but otherwise, they're great.

[–]JeriMouse 11 points12 points ago

I've been applying for sales positions lately. I've had a few years of experience and one of the jobs turned me down, but I felt if they knew how badly I would work at it and how much I really needed the money, they would have chosen me. I'm unemployed, have tons of bills to pay, not to mention school, and have a point a to b car that I would love to trade in for a newer model. If places would ask just a few personal questions, especially in commission-based sales, they would be able to pick out the ones who are going to perform the best for them based on how desperately they need the money.

[–]rx_tacos 13 points14 points ago

Correct, thought I must say that sometimes there's a thin line between desperation and passion. There's been times where someone has let it be known by their words that they are really in need of money, so it comes off as "i just need a job" vs "I really think I have the competencies needed for this role."

Keep your head up, think positively, show your personality and the right one would come through.

[–]Hristix 21 points22 points ago

Correct. People should want to work not for money, but for enjoyment. Companies don't want you if you don't spring out of bed in the morning, bright eyed and bushy tailed, and absolutely can't wait to go make close to minimum wage at your shitty job where they 'forget' to pay you what you're owed and schedule you for six shifts in a row.

[–]Blu- 17 points18 points ago

People should want to work not for money, but for enjoyment.

Thanks for the laugh.

[–]Imstillawake 8 points9 points ago

As a senior engineering student, this is every job I ever seen.

[–]Eraq 13 points14 points ago

Go to your school's job fair. That is a very good place to find jobs that don't require experience.

[–]funkydo 17 points18 points ago

Stand up against unpaid internships. When you own a business, don't use that. It's preying on a huge society where people will do unpleasant things in order to eat. I actually think we could stand to pass some legislation against it, just like we have a minimum wage.

[–]dievogel 14 points15 points ago

There is legislation against the overuse of unpaid interns and guidelines as to what an employer can consider an "unpaid internship" - mainly that it must be beneficial for both parties involved - but the problem is that it is not enforced at all. Most unpaid interns are forced to do mundane administrative tasks, which do not help them gain any work experience or skills in their desired field. We need to work on having these rules enforced, otherwise people end up hopping from internship to internship without ever really learning anything, all while having no income. It's a vicious cycle to find yourself in (as I once was), and sucks to know that the labor laws aren't doing much to help :/

[–]NeonCookies 5 points6 points ago

My first internship consisted mostly of tri-folding papers, stuffing them in envelopes, counting the envelopes, making sure they were in order of zip code, and getting them ready for bulk mailing, designing "Staff Boards" that had a picture of each staff member and a little bio about them, organizing random desks/closets, and coming up with activities for them to do on their staff retreat (that I wasn't invited to). It was a totally worthless experience. It was an internship I acquired through my college and I had to "review" the internship at the end of the semester. I made sure that my school knew how worthless that internship was. I understand that these tasks need to be done by someone, and I wouldn't have minded doing them if I actually got to do some things that were relevant to my field, but it was literally all I did.

[–]SgtSTFU 22 points23 points ago

Getting a job out of college is the ultimate catch-22. "We are looking for college graduates. However, you may need a bit more experience under your belt." Tell me guys, is there some sort of alternate dimension of employment where we can get the "needed" experience that comes between graduation and getting that job?

[–]deadbunny 5 points6 points ago

Working while at college? If it's a tech type job even personal experience with home made labs or whatever is experience. If you're passionate about something, that was why you spent all that money in college right?, then show them you're passionate.

[–]marvelously 3 points4 points ago

Also, internships and volunteer positions help as well. And can also lead to connections in your field in addition to be relevant experience.

[–]i_Lean 15 points16 points ago

The best is when an Entry Level job explicitly says, "2-3 years of experience, internships don't count." I'm glad my three internships are useless to you!!

[–]whatne1wuddo 7 points8 points ago*

I'm 24, still an undergrad college student, and have gotten 4 of the last jobs I've interviewed for, including a summer internship at a very large public accounting firm (90% of the interns get full time offers once they graduate). I don't make a great deal of money, but for my age and school level, I'm fairly comfortable. Also, at the 2nd to last job I had, I hired someone for an entry level position who I eventually trained to replace me after I got a better job offer.

Here are a few tips:

1- Apply to as many places as possible. My last 3 jobs had been responses to Craigslist ads that I wasn't very interested in, but ended up being great experiences. I'm pretty happy with my job now, and have a well paying ($25/hr) summer internship, so I don't apply to jobs much these days (I will resume after the internship), but before that I sent out 20-30 emails a day, mostly from craigslist. Usually only about 5% respond, but 5% of 30 is way better than 5% of 5.

2- Have a very nicely formatted 1 page resume. When sending it in an email include just a few sentences summarizing who you are and why you think you're a good fit. DON'T WRITE TOO MUCH. From the interviewers perspective, they literally have to go through hundreds of these emails and 80% of them get filtered out because they are too wordy and/or have bad grammar.

3- At the interview. Show up a few minutes early (I think 15 minutes is too long- sometimes it's awkward for HR or someone at the company to figure out where to put you for so long, but 10 minutes is ideal) and DEFINITELY don't be late. Talk to them like you are talking to a new friend, be open and honest and try and have a good time. the interview is more about finding out if the company will get along and be able to work with the employee than it is about your expertise. Interviewers already know what you can do based on your resume. If you can talk about something besides work and yourself, or find something to connect on, it will help tremendously. Look around the office to find stuff to talk about. Be confident and smile. Shake everyone's hand and say "Nice to meet you, (there name)" Dale Carnegie says a person's name is one of their favorite things to hear. It also helps to remember them. I moved from LA to San Francisco and while I was looking for jobs in the new city I talked about the weather in SF and traffic in Los Angeles. I have some lain Mark Twain quote about the weather in san francisco that makes people laugh. It's easy to talk about, relatable, and gets people comfortable with you. Be confident. The cliché of "the interview being about you interviewing the company as well as the company interviewing you" is very true. Test them, see how they react. I always ask a couple questions at the end such as: "How soon are you expecting to hire someone?" "When can I expect to hear from you?"

4- Don't sell yourself short. If you're looking to get paid more than where you're currently working, tell them that you make more than you actually do, so that they don't offer you the same amount (assuming you don't hate your current job, or don't have a job, obviously).

5- After the interview, email them immediately thanking them for the opportunity to interview with them. Here's the email I use: "Thank you for the opportunity to interview with (company name). I enjoyed meeting you, (and other staff members) and would definitely like to pursue an opportunity with the company. Please feel free to email or contact me via phone if any questions arise in your decision making process." Also, follow up with a thank you card (hand written). Try and send it out the same day.

6- This may be the most important. USE CONNECTIONS. The last few jobs I've gotten haven't been through people, but I know the most important thing is to talk to people you know. While I was interviewing for public accounting firms I found a few people through family friends and other randoms that worked for those types of companies at some point. Some people knew a few people at the companies I was interviewing and sent emails out to their friends. This helps a lot.

TLDR: THE WORST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN IS THAT THEY SAY NO Get out there, send resumes, and be confident. You can get a job now if you do it right.

[–]Red_Woody 26 points27 points ago

I always get turned down because I don't have enough experience, interviewers say. But how am I going to get that experience if I keep getting turned down?

[–]reed311 5 points6 points ago

Nonsense. Companies almost never even take people to the interview stage if they do not have enough experience. Why would they waste their time and yours bringing you in for an interview when they already see that you don't have enough experience?

[–]Archangelus 13 points14 points ago

Maybe you should offer to work for free. What sucks is that people did that, and that's why you need to do that now. In fact, you might need to pay them at first to be worth their time.

[–]Red_Woody 34 points35 points ago

I need to pay companies to let me work for them now? I'm this close to pulling an "Into the Wild" and going to Alaska to die from eating berries.

[–]ekaceerf 18 points19 points ago

paid internships is the new thing. They dont pay you, you pay them for the privilege of working for free.

[–]Nictionary 11 points12 points ago

Totally serious, is this a joke? I honestly can't tell.

[–]Red_Woody 10 points11 points ago

Pardon my French. That is the most fucked up shit I've learned today.

[–]Kalium 50 points51 points ago

There are no words for how insane this is. All I say is that "unpaid internship" sounds an awful lot like "indentured servant" to me.

[–]danthemango 7 points8 points ago

indentured servants are provided with food and shelter, interns on the other hand...

[–]staples11 3 points4 points ago

I read a tinfoil had conspiracy that these unpaid internships were privileges that mostly wealthy students could afford to do, to put them ahead of the game since anyone can get in a university now. It somewhat made sense in that a less economically well off student might need to take an unrelated paying job over an unpaid internship to survive. A wealthy student's parents can prop them up easily while the student focuses their time on experience and qualifications. The less fortunate student meanwhile is more independent and must look after their own financial well being and thus cannot afford to not be paid for something.

[–]Alanna77 2 points3 points ago

Indentured servants were treated better.

[–]Soileau 2 points3 points ago

The sarcasm is strong in this one...

[–]irishfrog 15 points16 points ago

not funny, depressing

[–]hyperkill 15 points16 points ago*

"Entry" level is a joke now with the current state of the job market. There's people out there with years of experience in various fields that cannot find work and willing to take whatever comes their way. Kids just getting out of college are screwed, or they're made unpaid interns.

I was at a portfolio event recently where design students showcase their work in hopes of gaining employment. My partner and I were there looking for some great motion graphics people we could hire to help us out. We both noticed that MANY people there were discussing which person they thought would be willing to intern for them for free. It sucks that too many people these days just aren't willing to pay people what they're worth.

[–]haltingpoint 2 points3 points ago*

All depends on what field you are in. My company is hiring for folks and my industry is hurting for people with a few years of experience. People with a few years can literally work at any company they want in this industry.

EDIT Do to all the replies asking what field, I figure I'll share. Digital media. If you know how to build a solid AdWords campaign and pace to a monthly budget, you can get a job at an agency, easy.

[–]skipjim 2 points3 points ago

I see this all the time.

The last job I was offered, came to me with a salary which was 1/2 of what we'd discussed prior to my driving the 45 minutes to their facility.

[–]MongolianBBQ 3 points4 points ago

Perfect. My 3 to 5 years of bullshit experience will translate well.

[–]bg-j38 13 points14 points ago

Funny story tangentially related..

A long time ago I worked for a company that wanted people who had experience with VXML (Voice XML). We didn't give any amount of time, just put it as a skill that we were looking for. Except someone did a typo and put "WXML" in the publicly available job description.

Now WXML doesn't exist. It's a meaningless acronym. The reason we noticed was because all of a sudden about 75% of the resumes we started receiving said people had 3-5 years of WXML experience.

I don't post job listings, but if I ever do I'm totally putting in fake acronyms to weed out the liars.

[–]Skjalg 6 points7 points ago

[–]liquidxlax 4 points5 points ago

What is worse is when the employer wants you to already have a job before they will hire you...

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

You don't understand. It's 3-5 years for entry-level pay.

[–]Osgiliath 3 points4 points ago

Out of college I was applying for "an entry level position" in the mail room of an organization. One of the requirements was "at least 2 years previous experience working in a mail room". WHO THE FUCK APPLIES FOR A MAIL ROOM POSITION, EXCEPT PEOPLE WHO HAVENT HAD MAIL ROOM EXPERIENCE BEFORE

[–]cgeezy22 3 points4 points ago

They are trying to tell you that they want your experience and only want to pay you entry level wages. They feel comfortable taking advantage of people in this economy. You're just a slave after all.

[–]MysidianPadawan 23 points24 points ago*

it usually just means you have to make shit up to get hired

edit: I am under the impression that nobody can get hired if they were truthful about their past experience/qualifications. It really bothers me they even ask for that info because everyone just lies anyway.

[–]radamanthine 7 points8 points ago

I was honest. I got hired.

[–]cyborg008 8 points9 points ago*

I am actual looking for a job now should I just lie about my skills?

[–]MysidianPadawan 24 points25 points ago

proper spelling and grammar can go a long way too

[–]sassicfras 18 points19 points ago

NO. DO NOT LIE. These people WILL check up on this stuff!! And if you are applying to a close-knit community (like educational research, etc) the word will be spread, or it will at least catch up to you at a later time. I just got my first full-time job that required 2-4 years prior experience, and I have not yet graduated college (am graduating in a few weeks). Every word on my resume/in my cover letter was true.

[–]mikevalstar 12 points13 points ago

I have yet to have a single employer ever check ANY of my credentials; it depends on the industry and the company. (I do web programming)

I should Point out i have not outright lied on resume before... but I have definitely stretched the truth.

[–]TheTalentedAmateur 22 points23 points ago

There is a difference between lying and marketing.

[–]deadbunny 20 points21 points ago

Lying is generally more honest.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

in that case i used to do work for the fbi, hacking the cia for information

[–]cant_be_pun_seen 10 points11 points ago

And if you use a company that is no longer in business(such as Circuit City)?

You can easily put that you were a supervisor for 4 years and who would know?

[–]reverbs 6 points7 points ago

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[–]TaxExempt 3 points4 points ago*

The last 3 people my boss hired had glaring lies on their resumes.

edit: but, then again, so did all the other applicants.

[–]jonnyrotten7 2 points3 points ago

I never would have gotten a bartending job if I didn't lie, and once I got experience, that's all I needed. So in that case, the prevarication paid off.

[–]SamuelAsante 2 points3 points ago

You can lie about your accomplishments in a certain position, but you can't lie about where you worked and for how long you worked. The only thing an employer can ask a reference is "did this person work there from ____ to ____ ?"

[–]Kumbackkid 4 points5 points ago

Fake it til you make it

[–]ThePain 2 points3 points ago

proceeds to forward this to each and every single game developer currently in business, including Valve

[–]dmarek1 2 points3 points ago

What it means is the job is designated as entry-level on their pay scale, and that is the position that you start at for the privilege of joining their esteemed corporation. You need to have this much experience to get your foot in the door with us.

[–]asaturn 2 points3 points ago

ugh.

first job I applied for in Seattle was to install networking equipment. guy wanted me to recite the OSI layer model, explain network stacks, etc.

got through all of that and he says it pays $9/hr.

I walked out.

[–]montibbalt 3 points4 points ago

Apply anyway. Often times the "experience" requirement is not actually a requirement and is only there to deter people who don't have any confidence in their own skills.

[–]EthicalReasoning 3 points4 points ago

welcome to the new economy, you need 10 years experience and a bachelors degree to start

[–]Pizza_The_Hut_17 4 points5 points ago

I just watched the Princess Bride for the first time and I get these jokes now! Yes!

[–]tiajuanat 2 points3 points ago

Ah, graduation time must be coming soon, let's see how many of my friends will lose their jobs before August.