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[–]SunCrushr 42 points43 points ago

Evolution has been disproved? Please, come forward, present your evidence and collect your Nobel Prize.

[–]dylofpickle[S] 22 points23 points ago

The Nobel people would never give that prize to them because they are part of the liberal-socialist-fascist-baby eating New World Order. (I typed this with Alex Jones' voice in my head)

[–]cpumatt 5 points6 points ago

You stole my comment, look below you ;_;

[–]SunCrushr 5 points6 points ago

Sorry, didn't see that. Have an upvote here and over there. :)

[–]cpumatt 12 points13 points ago

Go pick up your damn Nobel Prize too!

[–]brnitschke 15 points16 points ago

A former boss of mine, super evangelical, once looked at me with a condescending smile and said with a straight face, "Evolution has been completely debunked. The current theory is Intelligent Design."

Apparently with ID, peer-review has also been completely debunked, and only the truth is left for us to learn from.

[–]dylofpickle[S] 9 points10 points ago

ID was debunked in Kitzmiller vs. Dover, PA School District. The judge in that case, btw, was a Christian Republican appointee of George W. Bush. Too bad he is a former boss. I'd be interested in hearing what he says about that.

[–]brnitschke 6 points7 points ago

The guy was crazy. He acted like he was going to physically punch me another time because I told him good and evil are subjective. This was my friggen BOSS at a tech company mind you! I doubt the Kitzmiller vs. Dover case would have made any difference to him.

[–]ESKJC -1 points0 points ago

Philosopher here, good and evil are not always subjective but that does not mean that the reasons for moral truths come from religion.

[–]brnitschke 3 points4 points ago

Care to share an example of when they are not subjective?

My argument was that a house cat may torment a mouse for hours, torturing it before eventually killing it. This is not an evil act from the cats perspective since her actions are quite instinctual. Granted, you may say a cat lacks morality in the first place. But isn't that the point of it being subjective?

If we meet aliens, they might find murder quite normal and theft to be amoral. So although they may share simliar moralities of good and evil with us, wouldn't their morality be subjective to them, just as ours would be to them?

Core to my argument is that genetics and instinct form empathy which is a key to our moral codes. I also accept that there are of course social moralities which can be unique from culture to culture. But the whole thing paints a sense of morality that is highly subjective to the one declaring the morality of an action.

[–]JCelsius 3 points4 points ago

There are several episodes of Star Trek TNG that deal pretty heavily with alien species' morals differing from our own.

Hell, even the Borg aren't presented as fully evil. In their eyes, they're bringing everything together and improving upon the universe.

[–]fishwithfeet 1 point2 points ago

Fun fact: Rats have empathy

Hurray Science!

[–]brnitschke 0 points1 point ago*

And as anyone who's ever had a rat will know, they clearly believe stealing is quite natural. Or at least to them, possession truly is 9/10ths of their law. ;)

[–]Feinberg 1 point2 points ago

If only we could fight wars like rats do. Just making biting motions and waving our arms around.

[–]MeloJelo 1 point2 points ago

Murdering an innocent child that has done no wrong and will do no wrong, and will, in fact, improve the world. There's an example of something that is wrong, always (or at least I can't imagine a scenario in which it would be right). It benefits no one, and does great harm. If it does to prevent even greater harm, the act itself is still wrong, but perhaps it is justified.

I guess it depends on how you define morality, though. If altruism or not doing harm in the world have no part of your definition, then perhaps it can be subjective, although whether it's truly the same concept as what I and many others define as morality is arguable.

[–]dylofpickle[S] 2 points3 points ago

But if your moral principles dictate that killing children for no reason is necessary for survival, subjectively you would consider yourself good. Even if no material benefit is gained, it is still justifiable to you and therefore, not evil

[–]ronin1066 0 points1 point ago

what if we kill it as a sacrifice to a god? Is that always evil to all cultures?

[–]dhicks3 0 points1 point ago

What if killing that child is somehow the only way to prevent greater harm to many others, and not killing the child results in the harm being guaranteed?

Say, a disgruntled employee takes their office hostage on Take Your Child to Work Day. As revenge, they order you to kill the manager's very promising child, or they'll start executing everyone else, one by one. If you comply, the employee stands down and turns himself over to the police. Is it not best for the group as a whole to simply have one person die instead of all of them?

An unlikely hypothetical situation, but unlikely is what you get when you propose such a stringent criterion.

[–]unknownpoltroon 0 points1 point ago

IM sorry, but that is the entire basis of christianity. "Hey, heres the one single person on earth who has never sinned. KILL HIM TO SAVE YOURSELVES!"

[–]palparepa 0 points1 point ago

You may like this story. The first chapter is titled "The Baby-Eating Aliens."

[–]sandmanMike 0 points1 point ago

A Judge on a school district case disproved ID? I'd be interested to learn more on how that one works.

Sounds like the same judges saying businesses are people ;)

[–]Feinberg 2 points3 points ago

Debunked, not disproved. It hasn't been proven in the first place.

[–]dylofpickle[S] 0 points1 point ago

Valid point, sir/ma'am

[–]sandmanMike -1 points0 points ago

I'm not sure it's actually be debunked either, at least not from the literature involving this case is concerned. Is there other evidence debunking it?

[–]Feinberg 1 point2 points ago

Well, the Wedge Document and Discovery Institute's policies and behavior pretty clearly show that it's not legitimate science.

[–]sandmanMike 0 points1 point ago

I've not read the documents you're referring to but I understand the point you are raising. I've got to go for now but would like to read up more on those documents, do you have good quick to read references of them?

[–]Feinberg 2 points3 points ago

Wedge Document: Shows that the Discovery Institute is pursuing a religious agenda, not science.

The policies and actions I'm referring to relate to the Discovery Institute pushing to have Intelligent Design creationism taught in grade schools despite the fact that it's not a scientific theory or accepted by scientists. They have recently changed tack and said they don't want IDC taught in classrooms, they just want the flaws in the theory of evolution discussed. That's like setting a $500 asking price for a broken toaster and then saying, "Okay, just to do you a favor I'll take $300." Real scientists don't seek the acceptance of impressionable children before they gain the acceptance of the scientific community.

One of the core arguments for Intelligent Design creationism is the idea that anyone who understands and supports the theory of evolution is well on their way to being a Nazi, racist, or murderer. What they're saying is that the problem with the scientific theory of evolution is that it doesn't teach morality and ethics. Essentially, evolution is wrong because it isn't pleasant. Wendy Wright resorted to this argument in her discussion with Dawkins, and it still pisses me off that he didn't hang her on it. Real scientists don't need to employ this sort of slander to accomplish their goals.

Discovery Institute regularly employs lies and misdirection on their site, www.evolutionnews.org. Even the site's name is misdirection. They claim that self published articles are legitimately peer reviewed work which contributes to the veracity of Intelligent Design creationism. They say the same thing about articles which merely rehash tired creationist dogma with new terms and articles merely describing what Intelligent Design creationism is. Even when they publish a legitimate scientific paper and get it peer reviewed, they frequently play fast and loose with the truth. I've seen at least one paper, I seem to recall it was by Dembski, where the peer reviewer said something along the lines of, "All the math is correct and this paper is well cited. Contrary to the author's claim, this relates to linear evolution, not biological evolution, but other than that it's fine." This was cited as a clear demonstration of how biological evolution couldn't possibly work. Real scientists don't have to lie to make their work appear legitimate.

There are a couple more items before I even touch on the quality of Discovery Institute's actual arguments, but I notice this comment is moving past "wall of text" into "citadel of text" so I'll stop. If, for some reason, you want me to go on, let me know.

TL;DR: Discovery Institute is clearly full of shit.

[–]Seekin 2 points3 points ago

It all boils down the the fact that ID/creationism is in principle unfalsifiable, untestable and has no predictive power at all. Hence, it is not a valid scientific hypothesis. Evolutionary Theory, OTOH, is eminently falsifiable and testable. It has been repeatedly put to the test, and has yet to be falsified in 150+ years of stringent testing. There have also been many outlandish predictions made by the theory that have been subsequently validated. E.gs include earliest hominid ancestor fossils in Africa (Darwin's prediction) and marsupial ancestor fossils found in Antarctica from when Australia was still connected to Gondwana via Antarctica. Also, nested hierarchical patterns of DNA sequence similarity based on time since common ancestry, the fossil record itself etc. ad. nauseum. The evidence supporting Evolutionary Theory is powerful, specific and plentiful. "God dunnit thataway" is useless as an explanation.

[–]Feinberg 0 points1 point ago

That too.

[–]dylofpickle[S] 2 points3 points ago

It was a federal case. I met the judge once actually. Sharp guy. I wish more Republicans were like him

[–]sandmanMike 0 points1 point ago

Just did a quick scan through on the wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

Very interesting case, it's not that ID was disproved but that the judge decided it related to creationism and violated the First Amendment (not sure I agree with that but that's another discussion)

I think what's funny is that all the district policy said was evolution is our best idea of how things work, but here is another idea and book if you want to read. Continue on. So it's not like ID was going to be taught in classes or anything.

[–]Feinberg 2 points3 points ago

There's a difference between "the best idea" and an accepted, tested scientific theory. That statement makes it sound like evolution and Intelligent Design creationism are on far more equal footing then they are.

Also, it's relevant to note that Intelligent Design creationism isn't an "idea for how things work" but rather a "a con".

[–]sandmanMike 0 points1 point ago

Could you please explain the "con" part of it?

[–]Feinberg 0 points1 point ago*

A ruse to deceptively gain another's confidence.

Edit: I thought about that a minute and realized I defined "con" but didn't support my argument. Sorry.

Discovery Institute put forth the idea of a scientific principle compatible with creationism to serve as misdirection to distract from the group's true goals, and to lend the group a sort of false scientific legitimacy.

[–]sandmanMike 0 points1 point ago

Yeah... I know what a con is :)

I see, so the scientific principles behind the ID that they put forth were found untrue?

[–]Feinberg 0 points1 point ago

To be accurate, the scientific basis underpinning Intelligent Design creationism has not yet been shown to be true.

As far as the scientific principles, it kind of depends on which principles and what version. Almost every instance of irreducible complexity thus far has been refuted, for instance, yet the IDC community keeps citing complex and poorly understood structures and claiming that they conclusively prove evolution couldn't possibly work. It would be reasonable to say that these things are complex and the evolutionary pathway that gave rise to them is currently unknown, but after 100+ years and something like 10 "conclusive" examples of irreducible complexity being shown to be evolutionarily plausible, claiming that a gap in the knowledge proves the whole theory to be wrong is silly or dishonest.

So, that's one of the principles involved in Intelligent Design creationism, and generally they all follow more or less the same pattern. They're based on flawed or unproven assumptions, they rely on novelty, or they involve misapplications of real science.

[–]ronin1066 1 point2 points ago

He said it was creationism in disguise and therefore not science, from what I remember, that was the thrust of his decision.

[–]dylofpickle[S] 0 points1 point ago

But it was still a legal requirement that the teacher read that statement and any legal requirement must be constitutional.

[–]sandmanMike 0 points1 point ago

Agreed, to an extent. If thought as a theory then you're not forcing beliefs onto anyone. Just as in other classes that have religion in them, say various literature courses where books are read with religion is okay.

[–]dylofpickle[S] 1 point2 points ago

But in a literature piece, it is not necessary to establish that religion as a viable and valid option. It is merely used for context. Not so when claiming that evolution might not be the best answer. That is more of an absolute and confirming statement.

[–]sandmanMike -2 points-1 points ago

Ish... giving an option doesn't make it an absolute. Being someone who is fascinated with science I enjoy learning about other possibilities for our existence, once of the sillier yet somewhat respected theories is the simulation (matrix) theory where we are all just in a computer program being run as a simulation.

To me this seems no more absurd then ID, Creationism, or Evolution just that it's another theory that can not be proved one way or another.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

So... you're saying that evolution is only a guess and there are other possibilities that are just as likely? I truly hope that it isn't, considering the mountains of evidence for evolution.

[–]VonAether 2 points3 points ago

You want to watch NOVA: Intelligent Design on Trial.

This presentation by one of the key witnesses, Kenneth Miller, is also a good one.

[–]sandmanMike 0 points1 point ago

Thanks, I'll have to see if I can fit those into my viewing soon, any of this in easily digestible text anywhere?

edit: I don't have 4 hours to watch these anytime soon unfortunately.

[–]Freakychee 1 point2 points ago

Irony is that if there really was proof that god existed and evolution was a lie. The scientific community would probably be very happy to hear that.

If and only if there was actual hard and solid evidence. Not some book and a lump of salt outside a ruin.

[–]brnitschke 0 points1 point ago

But last time that happened Prometheus got sent to live in hel and we got our asses evicted from paradise. So, maybe it's good science hasn't been shown that eh?

[–]Freakychee 1 point2 points ago

Wasn't Prometheus the guy who was constantly killed and then resurrected only to die again by getting eaten by birds?

[–]brnitschke 0 points1 point ago

Prometheus, Loki, Lucifer, the devil. Take your pic, all the same guy if you ask me. But yeah, that's one way the story played out. :)

[–]Freakychee 1 point2 points ago

I love mythology! Only reason why I would on occasion read the bible.

[–]Bronystopheles 5 points6 points ago

Oh, so it's finally been proved that we're in the Matrix and all empirical evidence heretofore is invalid?

That's pretty sweet. I have renewed hope for developing my psychokinetic abilities.

[–]killzone259 7 points8 points ago

WHY IS HE FACING THE RIGHT SIDE INSTEAD OF THE LEFT!?!?! YOU'RE TEARING MY WORLD APART!

[–]dylofpickle[S] 1 point2 points ago

I'm certain that's the way he has always faced. As sure as John McCain is the president of this great country.

[–]zadred 5 points6 points ago

Some idiot tried that shit with me on facebook.

[–]n3xg3n 3 points4 points ago

Oh cool, so by default we revert back to goddidit right?

[–]madoog 1 point2 points ago

Yep. That's the answer to give. "Oh? How so?"

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]dylofpickle[S] 3 points4 points ago

What? If you don't have another answer, then clearly the thing you didn't physically disprove is definitively disproved. I dont know how a bridge is built, but I know that you don't use a car alarm to build so clearly bridges appear by magic.

[–]muuh-gnu 1 point2 points ago

"Peer review" is relative. He maybe can organize dozens of his colleagues from christian, islamic and other "creation institutes" to peer review and approve his work.

What are you gonna say then? "Yes, it's peer reviewed, but you got the wrong peers?" This is an objection he can also raise to any "peer reviewed" paper about evolution you present to him.

How du you define a peer? Who gets to pick and choose the peers?

[–]Feinberg 1 point2 points ago

Discovery Institute has figured that out, too. Hence BIO-Complexity.

[–]myfirstnameisdanger 0 points1 point ago

That's the first time I've ever seen anything like that. Though finding faults with evolutionary theory is something I support. That's how we increase and fine tune our knowledge. However, I don't think there was anything there that attempted to prove ID. If we go to the zoo and you've never seen a lion and I tell you that it's a cat you might say that I'm wrong because cats are smaller and don't have manes. You'd be right in that my description is imprecise. However, if you then used that as proof that we were looking at a dog, that would be utterly ridiculous.

[–]Feinberg 0 points1 point ago

Yeah. I absolutely approve of finding fault with any scientific theory. I do not approve of manufacturing faults for theories and then attempting to bolster those faults with trickery.

[–]qazz42 3 points4 points ago

Evolution was disproved? Please tell me how your ancient book written by sand people beats years of documented and provable research.

[–]PerArduaAdAstra 0 points1 point ago

Tusken raiders? What do they know?

[–]morkskogen 0 points1 point ago

What did you say to them and how did they take it?

[–]dylofpickle[S] 1 point2 points ago

I said exactly what the meme post says. She was visibly taken aback by my quick retort. I stared at her for 2 seconds and then continued my presentation.

[–]morkskogen 0 points1 point ago

I really really really hope she turns up next week with Genesis in her hand

[–]dylofpickle[S] 0 points1 point ago

She was a Muslim actually lol

[–]lorax108 0 points1 point ago

I really hope you are in high school...

[–]dylofpickle[S] 0 points1 point ago

I am not. I have a degree but I'm taking more classes at a community college to get my teaching license. So its not far off from high school lol