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[–]JohnnyLongarms 62 points63 points ago

At first I was all "this is good"

Then I remembered that not being an atheist doesn't mean Christian scientist. Deists for example can stop at a red light, and not be an atheist.

[–]ANewMachine615 11 points12 points ago

Yep. It just means you don't believe in an intercessory god, which most Christian theology doesn't require.

[–]MBuddah 2 points3 points ago

Also, God helps those who help themselves.

[–]TxSaru 0 points1 point ago

Just gonna put it out there, that is an idea commonly misattributed to Christianity; similar to 'Cleanliness is next to Godliness'. Neither are scripture, at least as far as Biblical Christianity is concerned.

[–]MBuddah 2 points3 points ago

Maybe Christianity has become more than just what's in the bible?

[–]Philile 2 points3 points ago

You mean culture is affecting religion? Perish the thought!

[–]fauxmosexual 0 points1 point ago

Don't say that! If we can't win by just pointing out the fallacies in bible and declaring anything other than strict adherence to the whole book is no true Christian, what would we do then?

[–]Antonton 0 points1 point ago

In those exact words, no, but "faith without works is dead" is in there. Pretty similar concept, and that might be the root of the whole "God helps those who help themselves" argument. I have no idea where the "cleanliness is next to godliness" business comes from, though.

[–]DepressedRacoon 108 points109 points ago

However nice of a soundbyte it is, and however well it can be formatted into an image, it's clearly fallacious.

[–]differentnamesfor 17 points18 points ago

Seriously, you need to reevaluate your logical compass if you don't see how stupid this sounds. There are plenty of good arguments for atheism, but this is not one of them.

[–][deleted] 37 points38 points ago

yes, to be honest I have heard a lot of stuff he has said that I agree with, but this is just stupid. Even if you believed in God and an afterlife why would that make you put yourself into situations that would kill you?

[–]gradivus22 11 points12 points ago

Because you get to go to heaven. Whats the motivation for self preservation if you just die and go someplace better?

[–]wizardsleeves420 6 points7 points ago

I imagine the typical response would be something like "God protects those who protect themselves."

[–]gradivus22 10 points11 points ago

Translation: God does nothing you couldnt do yourself.

[–]Super_duper_cereal 9 points10 points ago

well we're not just talking christians here, someone could be a deist who believes the afterlife is no better than this one, or that they'll just get reincarnated as something else, and maybe they enjoy being human and don't want to roll the dice again so soon, I don't personally believe in an afterlife but i could see how its possible to do so and still not want to get there any sooner than I'd have to

[–]SoepWal 0 points1 point ago

But you're a good person. God will protect you. :)

[–]hmelton 0 points1 point ago

he's not talking about anything but fundamental christians Because the quote wouldn't offend anyone but a deeply Fundamental and possibly ignorant christian individual. Are there any other deists than deeply Fundamental islamic/christian that would piss an atheist off by just going through their Daily routine?

[–]Super_duper_cereal 1 point2 points ago

but that's not what he said, he's essentially saying that anyone who doesn't fully rely on a deity to control their lives and actually makes decisions based on their own logic is an atheist, and this is simply not true, for many reasons, least of which being some religious people can and do think for themselves in everyday situations and only don't bother to question things that specifically involve their beliefs

[–]ikinone 0 points1 point ago

least of which being some religious people can and do think for themselves in everyday situations and only don't bother to question things that specifically involve their beliefs

Well, that is his point really. That religious people are really atheists. They want a god to exist, but do not really put faith in one.

[–]TxSaru -1 points0 points ago

Usually he is a really smart guy, but I think he's slipped a gear on this one.

[–]Marakasa 2 points3 points ago

This comment looks to Christians as "If evolution is true why are there still monkeys?" does to atheists

[–]UserNumber42 0 points1 point ago

why would that make you put yourself into situations that would kill you?

Why wouldn't you? Eternal bliss in heaven dancing at the side of your creator isn't good enough for you? Plus all your old pets are there and Jimi Hendrix is performing tonight. If Christians really believed in heaven, funerals would be celebrations.

[–]DecadentDisarray 0 points1 point ago

Most funerals are considered celebrations of one's life. Do you mourn when you lose someone...it's only natural, whether you are religious and believe in an afterlife or not. It is still momentary loss for those that think they will see them again.

[–]rushdor -1 points0 points ago

But a person who believes in a all-knowing god that has planned your demise has no need to stop at the red light, safety is not an issue for this person because god cares for them.

[–]not0your0nerd 4 points5 points ago

but a person can believe in a god that does not have a plan for you. a god that does not come down and control cars and traffic lights for your benefit.

[–]PuyallupCoug 0 points1 point ago

Yes but God has a plan and has known everything that will happen to you from the beginning of time. Otherwise he wouldn't be all powerful etc right?

For example, when someone dies suddenly and unexpectedly I usually hear from theists that god "called them up" or "it was god's plan to use that person elsewhere" etc etc.

[–]not0your0nerd 1 point2 points ago

Who said God is all powerful? The Goddess isn't all powerful either.

[–]PuyallupCoug 1 point2 points ago

If he's not all powerful then he is no god.

[–]not0your0nerd 2 points3 points ago

maybe to you. But not everyone has the same definition of God as you do.

[–]ebbomega 1 point2 points ago

Yeah, this person is killed by God to teach the rest of the world an important lesson:

DON'T BE A DUMBASS.

In seriousness, your argument is the same kind of horrible strawman that I would think people who were the champions of reason would avoid, but yet seem to make every time that this kind of argument comes along.

[–]TxSaru 1 point2 points ago

The Bible explicitly states there are consequences for actions, that getting square with God doesn't keep you from "reaping what's been sown" on this side of death.

[–]monedula 4 points5 points ago

I think I can guess where he was coming from on this. I've seen debates between non-religious and religious people where the former bring up methodological naturalism and the latter ridicule naturalism. It would be a fair retort to say "if you stop at a red light then you're a methodological naturalist as well".

I suspect Penn tried to "simplify" it, and simplified it off the rails.

[–]TerXIII 3 points4 points ago*

It only makes sense in the context of Christianity, and even then, for Christians who believe that:

A) God is an interventionist in all of human affairs. B) God has a set path for each person. C) Belief in Christ is enough to get into heaven. D) Their soul will live on for eternity, and life is insignificant by comparison.

This is a small fraction of Christians. Most believe in this absurd waffle made of free will and predestination. If my beliefs made that little sense, I'd be trying a bit of everything to put off testing them until I absolutely had to.

I've made this point with Pentecostals, and extreme pentecostals at that, because this soundbyte actually applies to a lot of them. (See: Jesus Camp). I lived in the area that documentary was made.

Also: See Snake cults, sects of Christianity that actually believe that the bible is literally true, and the gospel of Matthew declares that Christians shall be killed by no poison. They subject themselves to rattlesnake bites over and over again. (Most of the time, the snakes have been milked. People die, though.). These people aren't fucking around, unlike the people Penn is ranting about.

[–]ikinone -2 points-1 points ago

I think actually, it works pretty well. Considering there probably is no god, it would mean everyone is an atheist. True theists would swiftly be removed through natural selection.

[–]TerXIII 2 points3 points ago*

I think actually, it works pretty well. Considering there probably is no god, it would mean everyone is an atheist.

That's... Not exactly how it works. We can neither prove nor disprove, nor can we theorize on the probability of the existence of a deity without accurate data, nor can we hope to understand the limitations at this time of the universe in which we live, or hope (at this time) to understand the goings on of the greater system (If any) it inhabits.

As such, any probability on the matter is pure speculation I.E. assertion of belief. An atheist merely lacks positive and negative assertion of belief. Unless of course, you have information I do not. All of the scientific body of knowledge that we do have, doesn't necessarily point to the idea of no God, just no God as defined by the Abrahamic religions, or at least, not entirely. Each version is itself falsifiable, however, we cannot know that the God described in the books is not some way real. We just know the inaccuracies in the scriptures tend to point out that such a being is logically inconsistent, and given what we understand about our universe, it seems to require logical consistency. But again, we can't be totally certain.

The probability of the existence of God has no bearing on whether someone is an atheist. As a matter of fact, if we had definite proof of the existence of God, atheists could still exist from a pure logical point of view.

True theists would swiftly be removed through natural selection.

People can believe something without having to act a certain way. Someone can absolutely believe that they can fly, however, never have thrown themselves off of a building. You see, having successfully flown would have transformed their belief into knowledge, crossing into gnostic territory. Now, not only does he believe he can fly, he actually knows he can!

However, one who CAN fly can also lack belief in their ability to fly. Perhaps they are convinced that they were just imagining having jumped off that building and flying to safety.

You see, knowledge and belief are largely independent of each other. Something we here in r/atheism try to stress to those not in the know.

Whether something exists or not has no bearing on the individual's ability to believe, or lack belief, just as they may also have knowledge of it, or not have knowledge of it.

Now, what if they do truly believe, but also believe that suicide is a mortal sin? Perhaps they believe in an omniscient God, and believe that all of their suffering is a rite of passage to the gates of heaven? And what if by taking the easy way out (pulling the plug, as it were), even if they did not commit suicide, hastening one's death deliberately actually was equivalent to suicide?

In my experience, this is closer to how Christians think in America.

[–]ikinone -2 points-1 points ago

nor can we theorize on the probability of the existence of a deity without accurate data,

Yes we can, we theorize that things are unlikely every day, without having proof that they do not occur. A car will probably not drop on your head the second you walk out the door. We have no proof it will not, and there is a slim chance it is possible, but you are not reacting to that possibility.

nor can we hope to understand the limitations at this time of the universe in which we live, or hope

Indeed, so you are suggesting we should react to anything that is possible? Are you right now busy constructing a vast pyramid incase it appeals to the potential alien species known as 'funkmonkeys'? Certainly, we should accept it is possible such a species exists, and that pyramids get their mojo flowing, but it is exceptionally unlikely. Unlikely to the extent that I will certainly not be trying to build a pyramid tomorrow.

An atheist merely lacks positive and negative assertion of belief.

That seems accurate.

All of the scientific body of knowledge that we do have, doesn't necessarily point to the idea of no God,

Nor does scientific knowledge say there are no funkmonkeys, no invisible gnome that lives on your head, and no fairies at the bottom of the garden.

As a matter of fact, if we had definite proof of the existence of God, atheists could still exist from a pure logical point of view.

I am sure we would be using a different term for that group, and it would certainly take a form vastly different from what we currently know as atheists, so I don't really see your point.

People can believe something without having to act a certain way.

They can, but beliefs still can affect decisions. It is not inevitable in every case, but it can, and does occur.

You see, knowledge and belief are largely independent of each other. Something we here in r/atheism try to stress to those not in the know.

I agree with that, I don't really see your point. They are independent, but they can still affect each other.

Now, what if they do truly believe, but also believe that suicide is a mortal sin? Perhaps they believe in an omniscient God, and believe that all of their suffering is a rite of passage to the gates of heaven? And what if by taking the easy way out (pulling the plug, as it were), even if they did not commit suicide, hastening one's death deliberately actually was equivalent to suicide?

Religions are pretty vigilant about trying to prevent people from taking a shortcut to the idea of heaven they sell (for obvious reasons), but their methods are certainly not foolproof. Firstly holy books are so old, and so vague, it opens them up to interpretation in many ways. Secondly, they contradict themselves, so people can simply pick whatever suits them for their current desire. Thirdly, you can simply find a way to die easily that does not involve suicide, such as free soloing, chainsaw juggling, bear wrestling, &c. Actually when it has suited them, religions have actively encouraged dangerous professions (soldier, &c.), claiming that dying in a certain way will surely lead to heaven.

There is plenty of leeway for an early death within religions, the point is, despite that opportunity, and despite the promise of an improved life after death, people do not seek that opportunity. People who really believed would have no troubles interpreting religious teachings in a way that permits them to die sooner.

[–]TerXIII 0 points1 point ago

I did not mean to say that we cannot theorize, but we simply cannot apply an accurate probability, so saying: "most likely not" is really just a bald guess. Since we have NO idea, it would be just as accurate to say: "Most likely". However, I do point out that the christian faith is falsifiable given its logical incoherence.

[–]ikinone -2 points-1 points ago

We can apply a probability based on our current experience, which is what is important.

[–]TerXIII 0 points1 point ago

Still doesn't make our guess any more correct.

Besides, most Christians are agnostic theists. They don't know just as much as us... They just suck at admitting it.

[–]ikinone -2 points-1 points ago

By our current experience, which is all we actually have to go by, our guess is more correct. Theoretically speaking, either is possible. The point of making guesses on probability is applying it to our actions, therefore it makes sense to calculate that probability based upon experience.

If you stuck to your logic, there would be absolutely no reason not to kill yourself right now. By your logic, when you die, whether you have religious beliefs or not, it is entirely possible that you will suddenly be living a life as you could only dream of previously.

Whether you want to admit it or not, you apply your experience when calculating probability of something. Calculating the chance of a deity existing should be no exception, especially if it somehow affects your life.

[–]TerXIII -1 points0 points ago

By our current experience, which is all we actually have to go by, our guess is more correct.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You have abandoned your first principle, and crossed from rational to irrational with this sentence.

Your standpoint is absurd.

If you stuck to your logic, there would be absolutely no reason not to kill yourself right now.

How do you figure?

One, an unknown number of variables exist in the selection of the "right" religion. An unknown number of gods may or may not exist. An unknown number of entities that are not definable as gods may or may not influence what is true. An unknown number of logically comprehensible, or logically incomprehensible factors may play into the selection process.

How likely do you think it would be, a few thousand years ago, that man should ever set foot on the moon? The point here, is that the landscape of human knowledge is always changing, and we cannot rule something out simply because it's unlikely now. Sure, I agree, there, in all probability, is no God. I just don't think anyone has the data needed to declare it a "more correct" answer than general theism.

Second, belief in a deity does not necessarily imply belief in an afterlife.

Third, belief in an afterlife does not necessarily imply that it will be a good life.

Fourth, belief in an afterlife does not necessarily imply that I will remain. Perhaps I will not have a concept of "I" as I know it.

My underlying point here is this: Religious people use this same argument against us, and we get all up in arms about it. While it's cute to go tit for tat, it doesn't progress the dialogue, and it's not going to help you should you continue to mire yourself down with illogical shit like you just put forth in your last post. You've made WAY too many assumptions and left a lot of logical holes in your argument. Work on closing them.

EDIT: It's also not my logic. It's how, in my experience, most Christians I've met tend to think. When applied with a background of scripture as absolute truth, then yes, you might have some background there, but most Christians don't really know their scripture and are closer to eclectic pagans in their beliefs than those asserted by the bible.

[–]InconsiderateBastard 2 points3 points ago

He says a lot of stuff that I have a hard time understanding. For instance, he has flat out said that agnostics must be atheists.

He knows there is no god. His is a gnostic atheist. His beliefs require dogma. He has stated that himself. It's just different dogma than a gnostic theist would hold onto.

I find what he writes and says fascinating, thought provoking, and I would LOVE to get to just sit and pick his brain about things. I don't understand where he is coming from with a lot of stuff but that seems like it would just make the conversation more interesting.

[–]ikinone -1 points0 points ago

Can you cite where he says he knows there is no god please?

[–]Deggit -3 points-2 points ago

However nice of a soundbyte it is, and however well it can be formatted into an image, it's clearly fallacious.

Applies to everything Penn Jillette and Bill Maher have ever said. Assholes.

[–]ikinone -2 points-1 points ago

Assholes they may be, but it does not justify your hyperbole.

[–]ikinone -2 points-1 points ago

Explain the fallacy please.

[–]DepressedRacoon 2 points3 points ago

Whether or not someone believes in a god is decided by their thoughts, not whether they're actively suicidal.

[–]ikinone -1 points0 points ago

Of course

[–]basec0m 13 points14 points ago

Because you stop at a red light, does not make you an atheist. Sorry, this argument is flawed. When you ask the believer if they feel they are subverting God's plan when they stop at a red light, they will respond with "free will". This is the same idea with the Pope in a bullet-proof car.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points ago

in other words, people of faith have to come up with some mental gymnastics/cognitive-dissonance-type rationale to defend the contradiction between their beliefs and their actions.

I agree Penn's argument is slightly fallacious, but only insofar as stopping at a red light makes someone an atheist. I think there is a larger point that rings true here. Believers still fear for their lives in dangerous situations even though there is supposedly an afterlife awaiting them after death, they still get sad when a family member dies even though they'll be seeing them again in Heaven eventually. These types of ideas clash, it seems to me.

I think Penn was simply trying to point out that disparity.

[–]Sinister-Kid 2 points3 points ago

First of all, a dangerous situation may not necessarily result in death. To be honest, I'd be more worried about ending up paralysed after driving through a red light, than ending up dead. People will naturally do everything they can to avoid pain and injury.

Secondly, theists don't all assume they will go to heaven if they die. I'd say most would have their doubts about whether or not they've led a good enough life to get into heaven. Also, there's no rule that says you can't have doubts about the whole afterlife thing in general and still be a theist. I'm sure even the most devout believer has their doubts and sometimes worry whether there is a god or heaven at all.

And thirdly, anyone would be sad about not being able to see a loved one, even if they are in a much better place and you would eventually be able to be with them again. It's just natural to miss people you like. In fact, the instinct to love and miss people, as well as the instinct to protect yourself from harm, are things that we've developed as animals for our own good. I'm not sure any degree of belief can properly override those instincts. So in short, I don't really see any clash here.

[–]not0your0nerd 3 points4 points ago

not every religion believes in heaven! Stop saying "religious" when you mean "Christian".

[–]faymao 3 points4 points ago

Stop saying "Christian" when you mean "Christian fundamentalist in the southern United States of America."

[–]TxSaru 1 point2 points ago

Hah! An upvote for you!

[–]ikinone -2 points-1 points ago

Hmm... what religion does not believe in some kind of life after death?

[–]not0your0nerd 0 points1 point ago

Many religions believe in reincarnation. (but reincarnation is a sort of life after death after life after death, so I guess it doesn't answer your question)

[–]ikinone -1 points0 points ago

Exactly, reincarnation is life after death. The point is people are scared of death, so they make stories up to make themselves feel better.

[–]not0your0nerd 0 points1 point ago

no, death is just accepted as another stage of life. You have to face death many times.

And I looked up your other question, and the ancient Jewish people did not believe in an after life or heaven, maybe google it next time. It doesn't mention an afterlife anywhere in their texts.

[–]ikinone -2 points-1 points ago

another stage of life

Which occurs after death. Whether you face death again is irrelevant. The point is people are scared of ending. This is a promise it will not happen. Maybe think it through next time. Just because they don't call it an afterlife, it is a life, after your life. Figure it out.

[–]not0your0nerd 0 points1 point ago

I'm not arguing that it's not an after life, I'm saying that it isn't created out of fear. I don't understand why you keep arguing about something I've agreed with.

[–]ikinone -2 points-1 points ago

If it does not stem from fear of death, why invent it?

[–]ikinone -3 points-2 points ago

Well put.

[–]brnitschke 41 points42 points ago

Sorry guys, but Penn is being here the Atheist version of this "you're not an atheist" guy.

[–]Sadiquito 10 points11 points ago

I've seen two atheist quotes from Penn Jillette. The first was him bashing agnostics for being cowards and hypocrites. This one is highly fallacious and, well, honestly plain retarded. I actually feel like he makes atheists look bad.

[–]gargamelol 26 points27 points ago

This is a logical fallacy, and it's offensive to anyone with an understanding of spirituality that falls outside of a monotheistic faith.

It's like saying "when you leave your house and you don't wear a helmet, you have faith that something isn't gonna fall out of the sky and land on your head. See, you're a man of faith!"

It's incredibly condescending. Big fat downvote for this.

[–]SoepWal -3 points-2 points ago

Why are you so mad? I know God will protect me, and if you don't trust Him, you're going to hell. I don't need a seatbelt, I just keep a bible in my glove compartment.

[–]Cancey 6 points7 points ago

Oh really? That's strange, I thought being an atheist means you don't believe in a deity.

[–]ikinone 0 points1 point ago

His point is, people don't really believe in one, they just want to.

[–]Cancey 0 points1 point ago

Right, you obviously know nothing about this. Religion originates from people who didn't understand their world. They gave deities as explaination. Those ideas of deities were passed down from generation to generation. The generation of believers today still believes in these deities. If they wouldn't actually believe, they wouldn't be such bitches about it. Do you really think people would kill for a god they don't really believe in?>His point is, people don't really believe in one, they just want to.

[–]ikinone -1 points0 points ago

Yes, people will kill for a god they don't really believe in. They are not actually killing for the god they 'believe' in, they are killing for themselves, and using what is a socially acceptable reason (within certain society, not yours I presume) to justify it.

[–]Ceejae 29 points30 points ago

I think Penn Jillette is great, but this quote is completely fucking retarded. No, it doesn't. Does it make you ignorant to remain a theist after that? Perhaps. An atheist? No.

[–]Ehsaun 1 point2 points ago

how would that even make you ignorant? This is the stupidest argument I've ever heard. Oooh we should just stop eating food then because god should take care of every minute detail of our lives.

[–]JohnnyLotion0 -1 points0 points ago

intellectual checkmate.

[–]RambleLZOn 10 points11 points ago

this... this is dumb, frankly.

just because you use modern medicine doesn't make you an atheist.

just because you follow basic traffic regulations doesn't make you an atheist.

what makes someone an atheist is not believing in any deities what so ever.

end of story.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

You can think that you have free will and that God does not intervene in your day to day life, but still believe that the universe was created by God(s)

I don't understand what this person is trying to say. If you stop at red lights, take medicine and hold broken arms in position then it only means that you're not insanity wolf, not that you're atheist

[–]SkyHawkMkIV 4 points5 points ago

Wait, what? How? I'm lost.

[–]blackacidevil 4 points5 points ago

I like Penn but this might be one of the dumbest fucking statements you can attribute to the guy. For his sake, I hope he didn't actually say something this stupid.

[–]smeagowl 4 points5 points ago

I empathize with portions of atheism on a very deep level, but shit like this is fucking infuriating. I downvote more shit from /r/ atheism than anywhere else. Not because I disagree, but because so much of these submissions that make it to the front page are just horrible in so many ways.

[–]FattyGPunch 7 points8 points ago

So if you've ever taken a "chance", or anything other than a 100% guaranteed course of action, you're a theist?

Biggest crock of bullshit I've ever heard.

[–]notanartmajor 1 point2 points ago

Nice choice of words, given the subject matter.

[–]FattyGPunch 0 points1 point ago

I try. xD

[–]Beelzebud 9 points10 points ago

It's a stretch. This is also the same guy that calls social security a "ponzi scheme", says second hand tobacco smoke is harmless, taxes are violence, and that climate scientists are frauds.

As an atheist, I think we can find better people to speak for us.

[–]iamdeveloper 2 points3 points ago

says second hand tobacco smoke is harmless

To be fair, they did rescind that when they heard about a new study they did not have access to for the show.

[–]Beelzebud 2 points3 points ago

To be fair, when that show aired the studies, facts, and the science had been settled for nearly 30 years. There is no excuse for them to be unaware of this. Look at the "experts" and "scientists" they used on the episode. It's a laundry list of paid industry lobbyists and shills. The same people that say DDT is safe.

[–]ikinone -1 points0 points ago

Indeed.

[–]TheSnowNinja 1 point2 points ago

Nowadays, it seems silly for anyone to claim that second-hand tobacco smoke is harmless. To my knowledge, it is now thought that that third-hand tobacco smoke is nearly as bad as second-hand smoke. This shouldn't even be a question.

I'm going to have to agree with Beelzebud, I don't want this guy representing me in any fashion.

[–]jarvispeen 2 points3 points ago

I would hardly call this "logic".

[–]nitsky 2 points3 points ago

he must be a credible source for logical argument, HE DOES MAGIC!

[–]Sloady 2 points3 points ago

This is plain wrong - and it's hurting science in the long run. The association between science and atheism is a clear one, but that doesn't mean science = atheism - and is a huge reason why the very religious distrust science - which hurts us all in the long run.

[–]Green_like_the_color 2 points3 points ago

I can't be the only person who thinks this guy is a complete waste of space. Regardless of beliefs, that quote is idiotic.

[–]OldJeb 2 points3 points ago

Penn's a smart guy, but I give him less and less credibility when his only arguments are calling people who disagree with him stupid motherfuckers. That's his style, I get it. It just seems to me that he swears to point of the words losing their effectiveness.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

Common sense and logic tells me that Penn Jillette is an idiot.

[–]deepwebassassin 3 points4 points ago

Pretty sure Penn knows what the actual definition of an atheist is. I find this mostly a humorous quote. Maybe some more context would help?

[–]themuffins 4 points5 points ago

no, he's trying to sell his book with a similar thesis

[–]GottabeKP 1 point2 points ago

I'm assuming he was pandering to a crowd. He's much too smart for that to be presented as an actual argument. Also the 'mother fucker' sort of gives it away, he was probably shouting at that point.

[–]anothermaggot 3 points4 points ago

Penn is usually shouting, to be fair.

[–]InconsiderateBastard 0 points1 point ago

I don't think he has the same idea of what an atheist is as I do based on what he has said in the past. I think he falls firmly in the category of gnostic atheist.

One thing I've seen him repeat many times on twitter is the argument that if you don't know whether or not a god exists (you are agnostic) you must be an atheist. His comments always remind me of the line from Ronin: Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt.

Either you know god exists or you know he/she/it doesn't. Simply not believing in god is not a valid position to him.

[–]Jawthumb 3 points4 points ago

I love Jillette, especially Penn & Teller, but this is dumb.

[–]hahanobutreally 1 point2 points ago

By that logic, if you've ever taken a risk you're a theist.

[–]liverleef 1 point2 points ago

I think he's oversimplifying things. Also while taking a pill doesn't make you an atheist, it does make some anti-science people hypocrites.

[–]SpaceManSpifff 1 point2 points ago

I don't see a source here. When did he say this? Weak arguments for atheism only help fuel other people's superstitions.

[–]suntzu420 1 point2 points ago

I'm not 100% certain on this, but I believe this is where the quote came from. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hY9ODE4TJk . I vaguely remember hearing this quote while watching this video. For those not wanting to click the link, it's his appearance on Authors@Google.

[–]SpaceManSpifff 1 point2 points ago

I just watched the whole thing. It was great, but he did not say OP's quote.

[–]suntzu420 1 point2 points ago

shit, my apologies then good sir. I do not intend to mislead people.

[–]SpaceManSpifff 0 points1 point ago

That's, cool man. I just watched 4 Authors@Google talks because of that.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson

Penn Jillette

Noam Chomski

James Randi

Good stuff.

[–]crazyeddoelad 1 point2 points ago

and of course because he says "end of story" that settles that debate!

[–]anothermaggot 1 point2 points ago

great guy, Bad quote.

[–]Digitalkthx 1 point2 points ago

This is fucking dumb lol. Everyone down vote this bullshit.

[–]themuffins 1 point2 points ago

Penn Jillette is an idiot

[–]Mako2100 1 point2 points ago

And another example of why religious people think we're ignorant

[–]Marakasa 1 point2 points ago

Penn usually has some thought provoking insights. However this quote makes him sound quite ignorant and just plain wrong.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

Ahaha. Ahahaha. Oh Penn Jillette you big fucking dolt.

[–]Autonomous91 2 points3 points ago

i like jillette but, this is the dumbest fucking thing i've ever heard.

[–]Taniria 2 points3 points ago

Yes you all say it's flawed, but really what i don't get is why if heaven awaits them why do they prolong their death so long ? it's just stupid. Religion hurts my head cuz it's too contradicting to itself.. (inc downvotes!)

[–][deleted] ago

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[–]TheSnowNinja 0 points1 point ago

It's not a question of Penn 'widening' the definition of atheism. The problem is that he is using 'atheism' to mean 'not Christian.' There are many religions besides Christianty, and they might not believe that god has an unwavering plan for them. Deists don't believe in a god that intervenes in our lives. Some gods are not all-knowing or all-powerful. Some people believe in reincarnation, but feel no need to speed up the process.

The problem is that Penn creates a false dichotomy: either you believe in a god with a fixed plan that you cannot change, or you are an atheist.

[–]not0your0nerd -3 points-2 points ago

not every religion believes in heaven, you idiot!

[–]TheSnowNinja 0 points1 point ago

Some people like to know why they are downvoted, so I thought I'd let you know. The 'you idiot!' comment was completely necessary.

[–]vtdweller 1 point2 points ago

For all the downvoters, you're taking it too literally. Penn's point is that cognitive dissonance is an incredibly powerful thing, and that religious people end up revealing their true doubts when they take actions that would "alter" the perceived path they think God laid out for them. Why take medicine if God clearly wants you to be sick? If you think a) God is looking out for you, or b) that Heaven awaits, why take precautionary measures for your health and safety? Either you trust God's plan 100%, or you have some doubts that you're too afraid to admit.

[–]drketchup 1 point2 points ago

Why do you assume doctors and medical treatment would not be part of god's plan?

[–]vtdweller 0 points1 point ago

Because it would require mental gymnastics to envision an all-powerful God that would create diseases that would sicken/kill his precious creations yet provide a way to fight/treat the diseases without just curing them himself, to say nothing of the wasted resources and inefficient/ineffective treatments themselves.

[–]drketchup 0 points1 point ago

Us mere mortals can't comprehend the complexity of god's grand designs.

[–]not0your0nerd 1 point2 points ago

you seem to be assuming, like half the people on this page, that every religion believes in Heaven. Not everyone's God works the same way the Christian one does.

Why would I rush to die only to be reborn? God doesn't have a plan for you, and he isn't going to come down and cure you. He gave you a brain to deal with things like this.

I love reading r/atheism, but I hate when people lump all religions in with the abrahamic ones. (incase you're wondering, I'm Wiccan.)

[–]vtdweller 1 point2 points ago

Fair point, but we live in a world that is overwhelmingly dominated by the Abrahamic religions. While most atheists tend to be more well-versed in religion than actual adherents, most of us don't take the time to learn about the smaller ones. When you constantly have crosses, biblical passages, ten commandments, "fag haters" and the like thrown in your face, it's easy to focus on that subset of religions. Suffice it to say, when most people in this subreddit refer to "religious people" in a general sense, they're almost always referring to one (or all) of the Abrahamic religions.

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]not0your0nerd 1 point2 points ago

yeah. seriously.

[–]ikinone -1 points0 points ago

What religion does not associate with an afterlife of some sort?

[–]not0your0nerd -1 points0 points ago

I said what religion I am, which is Wiccan. And reincarnation is a belief held in many other religions as well.

[–]ikinone -2 points-1 points ago*

Reincarnation is an afterlife.

Seriously? Downvoting this?

[–]not0your0nerd -1 points0 points ago

yeah, but since you were asking me I thought you were not reading the "reborn" part and just seeing me say there wasn't a heaven. I don't know of any religion that believes in nothing after death, but I don't know the belief systems of most religions.

[–]ikinone -1 points0 points ago

Hence my point.

[–]IguanadonsEverywhere 1 point2 points ago

Christian=/=idiotic religious fanatic. Not always. /r/atheism needs to learn that.

[–]barakasauras 0 points1 point ago

I guess Jesus never had to think.

[–]solwiggin 0 points1 point ago

I think, therefore I am... an Atheist?

[–]BTAA4TD 0 points1 point ago

God isn't your fucking butler/wet nurse/bitch.

[–]Lereas 0 points1 point ago

To anyone thinking he truly believes this as fact, quit taking everything so seriously.

I don't think that he honestly believes you are truly an atheist, and this was probably said onstage at some show where it was "preaching to the choir".

He was pointing out the falacies of Christians who believe they have an all powerful god that will save them no matter what, who make these grandiose claims about his power, who say they put their life in his hands, but aren't willing to do things that are dangerous because they don't really believe so strongly that god will save them.

[–]themuffins 1 point2 points ago

If it's not true or even his intended message, then he shouldn't have said it.

[–]Lereas 0 points1 point ago

Because I'm sure no comic ever has said something hyperbolic.

He's given a lot of credit by some people for his no-nonsense approach of a lot of things, but he's still just an entertainer with opinions that this subreddit tends to agree with.

[–]themuffins 0 points1 point ago

He's a loudmouth who doesn't put much thought into what he says. I'm really quite sad that he's not the silent partner.

[–]seanzy61 -1 points0 points ago

This doesn't make much sense if you are a deist, but it makes a whole lot of sense towards theists. I mean why aren't theists driving through red lights, why do they care so much if they live or die? They are going to get eternal bliss when they die anyway.

I'll tell you why. Because no one fucking knows what happens when you die. No matter how much someone might try to convince themselves deep down they realize they cannot know. Anyone who claims they do is only lying to themselves. If they truly did know they would all be driving through red lights.

[–]I_I_II_III_IIIII 0 points1 point ago

I'm an atheist and this is probably as dumb as religious people's selective God attributions.

I like his hustle, though.

[–]rtl541 0 points1 point ago

I just don't really agree with this. I understand the point and all, but I am not an atheist, because I accept that there might be some sort of higher power or at least something supernatural out there. I still use logic when it comes to decisions.

[–]GuitarGuy971 0 points1 point ago

I was dating a girl once who's about 22 who met Penn Jillette and got his email. Opened my laptop to see their exchange of graphic BDSM sex messages to each other and planning to meet for a quick hookup.

You could say the things Penn says have kind of lost their magic for me.

[–]ThatCoolBlackGuy 0 points1 point ago

This is one of the few things that i disagree with. Stopping at the red light is like a rule everyone knows of you just have to do it , for traffic to work. Now using his logic one can ask "Why don't christians just commit suicide? They're going to heaven anyways" Well no that's just not the case just because you belong to a religion doesn't mean you'll close your eyes and just fucking do stupid shit.

[–]Lance_lake -1 points0 points ago

just because you belong to a religion doesn't mean you'll close your eyes and just fucking do stupid shit.

Funny.. That's usually what people who have a religion usually do.

[–]sej826 0 points1 point ago

Penn Jillete is a smart guy but this is just idiotic. In judaism at least, god commands us to put in effort and go through all the human options first and then if you need something miraculous he may or may not give it to you. This is not an attack on atheism, if your an atheist just be a good person. But don't tell me what i believe in without first looking into it.

[–]tehdancinqueen56 0 points1 point ago

I think people are taking this a bit too literally...its more about the fact that religious people who are otherwise rational have this irrational pocket in their psyche that allows them to believe in religion. As in, all people act as an atheist (logical, scientific thought processes) except for that one part of their life.

[–]3k3k 0 points1 point ago

Sometimes life has more depth than the default provides.

[–]drketchup 0 points1 point ago

This picture is retarded for so many reasons it's not even worth attacking.

[–]Gnarwhalrus 0 points1 point ago

This subreddit makes me sad.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

I respectfully disagree.

[–]Peaslepuff 0 points1 point ago

I'm an atheist and I think this is incredibly stupid and illogical. How did this even make it to the front page?

[–]MajorKirrahe 0 points1 point ago

If you've ever ducked for cover in a gunfight, you're not depending on God - So in reality there are ONLY atheists in foxholes.

[–]BigSwedenMan 0 points1 point ago

This is as ignorant of religious beliefs as the stupid shit Christians say about the big bang and evolution.

[–]junkeee999 0 points1 point ago

I love Penn, but this is just nonsensical. Christians do not believe in floating through life doing nothing for themselves and depending on God to put them in a protective bubble. Also there are a great many Christians who believe fully in science. There is nothing contradictory about that.

[–]DecadentDisarray 0 points1 point ago

Except for the fact that most Religious people believe that Gods work through science, medicine, and technology. Only the most extreme examples rely on faith healing and the like...

[–]Anzai 0 points1 point ago

I think he's confusing God with Superman.

I like Penn Jillette, but he does talk out of his arse sometimes for comic effect.

[–]Mackeja 0 points1 point ago

This argument is fucking stupid. Christianity doesn't even need a developed argument to cancel this one; it's right there in their scripture. Luke 4:12 "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy god." Christian theology does not prohibit using knowledge; even gasp scientific knowledge is fine so long as it doesn't conflict with the word of god as revealed in the bible.

We have plenty of fantastic arguments against theism. Don't stoop to using this one.

[–]JmjFu 0 points1 point ago

So what he's saying is that theists don't exist?

SEEMS LEGIT LOL

[–]pngwn56 -2 points-1 points ago

What does Penn think he is accomplishing with this statement? Does it solve any problem at all, or is it just to complain fallaciously?

[–]BuccaneerRex 0 points1 point ago

I love ya, Penn, but this one I think you stumbled on. You might believe that god's a malicious prick who's out to get you. You might believe in it, but just not trust it.

[–]iaskedforthis 0 points1 point ago

Wow, that statement was more ignorant and poorly thought out then anything a fundie could shit out.

[–]laportez 0 points1 point ago

I don't like this fat fuck telling me what I am.

[–]i_enjoy_food -2 points-1 points ago

Eh the xtians will just argue back against this with the "free will" speech.

[–]AnticScarab3 -1 points0 points ago

I wouldn't go so far as to say that they're atheists. I WOULD, however, say that any Christian who fears death is either dishonest about their beliefs, or is an idiot.

[–]TheSnowNinja 1 point2 points ago

Never cool to call people an idiot just because you disagree with them. Most everyone fears death. Even if they believe in an afterlife, most theists recognize that they do not understand the exact nature of the afterlife. Change can be scary, especially when the change involves a lot of unknowns. Besides, maybe fear pain instead of death. Pain and injury can permanently change someone's mortal life, even if they plan on going to heaven.

[–]AnticScarab3 -2 points-1 points ago

Never cool to call people idiots just because they're idiots.

umad bro?

[–]engineer4prez -2 points-1 points ago

Love Penn!!!

[–]focus_st23 -1 points0 points ago

TIL: Penn's last name is Jillette

[–]Kerai -1 points0 points ago

At least 583 upvotes for now... r/atheism is full of fucking retards... Everyone who reads that and doesnt see how ridiculously stupid it sounds is fucking retarded... and you say that christians lack a common sense.

[–]themuffins 0 points1 point ago

It's odd. the comments are mostly negative and yet upvotes. It's almost like they don't mean anything...

[–]iamtiredofreadingit -1 points0 points ago

Who the fuck is this fat thing?

[–]wreckjames -2 points-1 points ago

puttin?

as in Vladimir Puttin? or after i used my driver and my five iron i was puttin?