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491
492

If an embryo counts as a person... (i.qkme.me)

submitted ago by Browsing_From_Work

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[–]MEtaphorOWl 28 points29 points ago

According to my mom some lady tried to argue this in court by saying she wasn't in violation of the carpool lane because she was pregnant. Then she was charged with having 2 people in the driver's seat, which is a bigger offense.

[–]jbenuniv 8 points9 points ago

That would imply pregnant women are not allowed to drive, which seems likely to be a violation of civil rights.

[–]867points -1 points0 points ago

The other law should've outweigh the traffic violation. Since it's a discrimination of woman. How about Siamese-twins? ...this again proves that moral(judicial) absolutism doesn't make sense.

[–]Weed_O_Whirler 6 points7 points ago

It seems like the first part of this story is true, but I don't see any evidence for the second part

[–]Tasik 0 points1 point ago*

I noticed someone gave you a downvote... and I'm confused... You've gone as far as to include a source... Anyway you have my upvote.

[–]Aberu 1 point2 points ago

It was metaphorowl's mom.

[–]breaking_bark 3 points4 points ago

LOL, I knew it was too good to be true.

[–]crazy_atheist_uncle 1 point2 points ago

I remember this too. It was in San Jose, California about 10 years ago.

[–]eyeherpes 0 points1 point ago

That's a dick move on the court, I think it's a good idea, it's probably safer than normal lanes

[–]m3t4lmaniac 2 points3 points ago

An embryo is a previous state of an infant, not something you can fertilize :P

[–]bobpndrgn 0 points1 point ago

OP probably meant zygote

[–]m3t4lmaniac 0 points1 point ago

Isn't a zygote a fertilized egg? You can't fertilize that either...

[–]fon_tina 0 points1 point ago

This, OP probably meant gamete :)

[–]bobpndrgn 0 points1 point ago

well shoot... I read this wrong.

[–]theShiftlessest 2 points3 points ago

Also, why does god kill 30% of all people in the first trimester?

[–]867points -1 points0 points ago

He feeds on them. He's a baby eater. He's an atheist. God can not be an atheist. Hence there's no god.

[–]theShiftlessest 3 points4 points ago

There's a flaw in your logic. All atheist may be baby-eaters, but not all baby-eaters must be atheists.

[–]867points -1 points0 points ago

Shut up god works mysterious ways!

[–]mstksg 1 point2 points ago

If an embryo counts as a person ....

Does murdering a pregnant woman count as two charges of murder?

[–]Tithonos 2 points3 points ago

Depends on the state.

[–]largerthanlife 1 point2 points ago

Well, actually, it already does:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act

[–]Aberu 0 points1 point ago

According to the law, the fetus is seen as a human life already. I see no reason why this doesn't trump roe v wade state by state.

[–]largerthanlife 1 point2 points ago

The only reason is because the law specifically exempts abortions.

Regardless of your stance on the abortion debate, this is not lawmaking on intellectually consistent principles. It's a "for the children"-type law, that politicians passed because it makes them look good (or look bad if they opposed).

Probably also why it passed on a voice vote, so no one had to go on record about it:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:H.RES.529:

[–]breaking_bark 0 points1 point ago

well... you are right!! It should!!!

[–]kingssman 1 point2 points ago

Hmm. Is a when does a fertilized embryo count as a person???

So at which stage would you consider this no longer an egg but a chicken?NSFL

[–]SirGal-I-had -2 points-1 points ago

Whoever claims that a fertilized embryo is human have obviously never heard the phrase."don't count your chickens before they hatch."

[–]kingssman 0 points1 point ago

Thus you wouldn't go pre-determingly throwing away a whole batch of chicken eggs because you assume none of them will hatch.

If the probability is not absolute 0, then statistically there's always a chance.

Even at odds like 50/50 you wouldn't fold your cards and pull out.

The US infant mortality rate is like 85% so there's a perfectly good chance that a fertilized embryo will develop into a thinking / living human being that will someday live and learn just like the rest of us.

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." --Dawkins

Those who are never born who could have the potential to be the greatest humans ever, but denied that potential due to an active decision the already living.

Abortion actively denies others the lucky chance at life.

[–]FuzzyWazzyWasnt 1 point2 points ago

Wait so can a guy carry a frozen embryo in his car and have it count. Or do dead frozen babies not count as real people?

[–]t_hab 1 point2 points ago

Remember though, the embryo doesn't believe in God, and therefore doesn't count as a person...

[–]Weed_O_Whirler 1 point2 points ago

Scott Peterson was convicted of double murder for killing his pregnant wife.

[–]noagendaproducer 0 points1 point ago

We don't have carpool lanes around here so it wouldn't make any difference.

[–]fuzzyblackyeti 0 points1 point ago

My friend said yes to this. -_-

[–]fishwithfeet 0 points1 point ago

If Personhood passes in any state before I give birth, I'm traveling there and driving in their carpool lanes. Just because of this.

[–]sanders420 0 points1 point ago

I seriously LOL'd at this.

[–]MiraOnThe1DWall 0 points1 point ago

Does that mean if the mother drinks, it's underage drinking?

[–]mcboobies 0 points1 point ago

In California, yes.

[–]mranammox 0 points1 point ago

no dude. she's a woman. This is New Iran we're talking about.

[–]Tithonos -1 points0 points ago

What does this have to do with atheism?

[–]abaddon1125 3 points4 points ago

Ah, the token "what does this have to do with atheism?" comment. If you must know, arguments for granting "personhood" to an embryo or fetus tend to come from a religious standpoint, since there's no compelling argument for it outside of that.

[–]Tithonos 0 points1 point ago

There have to be 8,000 arguments for why a fetus could be considered a human being that aren't religious. I think abortion posts in r/atheism are fine as long as they somehow dwell specifically on a religious argument or an aspect of the secularization or desecularization of our government. This doesn't approach any of those things. It just poses an ethical or even merely linguistic question.

[–]fosaae 0 points1 point ago

yes, however its no secret that peoples values often stem from their religion and in particular with these arguments, there is a direct link. Is it not generally the conservatives that value tradition and religion as their moral compass that determine that even at an embryo stage that it is a person? Of course its a generalisation but don't be surprised if issues such as abortion, gay rights or euthanasia come up on atheist forums. The opposed view to these issues definitely have religious standpoints and thus can be discussed here

[–]Tithonos -1 points0 points ago

Several things to say to that: 1. There's probably a direct link between religion and almost everything. But I don't think we should be discussing the details of Baroque architecture simply because it was religiously motivated. Like I said before, I consider many if not most of the abortion posts on r/atheism to be appropriate because they focus on a religious issue. This one prompts a legal discussion. 2. Abortion should be a legal, ethical or even linguistics question, not a religious one. In fact it doesn't even make any sense. I don't see how the question changes whether you're religious or not. Making it a religious issue is not helping.

[–]fosaae 0 points1 point ago

tru but but these topics have more religious affiliations. You can't simply ignore the degree to how certain topics can be more religiously connected. Honestly i understand where you're coming from but i personally don't have an issue with someone who posts these kind of issues on atheist forums. Perhaps he/she may be trying to find like minded people or a rational logical argument for or against it? also with ur second point, i agree in that it should be a legal, ethical and linguistics question but in reality it really isn't.

[–]abaddon1125 0 points1 point ago

There have to be 8,000 arguments for why a fetus could be considered a human being that aren't religious.

I said "compelling" arguments. Most non-religious arguments are made on the grounds of potential, which is meaningless. You can't make an argument that a cluster of cells has consciousness or can feel pain or emotion, so until it has these abilities it's just a bunch of tissue with potential.

[–]kingssman -1 points0 points ago

I look at the fertilization of egg and sperm to be a chemical reaction that is set in motion that given time will develop into a fully functional adult human being.

Plant a seed and a leaf begins to sprout, would you call it a seed or a plant? would you label it not an apple tree because it doesn't bare any apples though it clearly is a sprouting appleseed.

Mix Vinegar and Baking Soda and you get bubbles and foam. You wouldn't say that this isn't a chemical reaction until everything is done reacting and stabilized.

Sometimes I question an Atheist sense of what is considered "human life" since when it comes to abortion, they don't see terminating unborn humans to be morally wrong... OH but heaven forbid you kill an adult, then all life becomes sacred to them and it's immoral to murder.

I think it stems from an inner "F-U, I got mine" mentality where they see themselves as "F-U, i'm born, alive, and grown up, all unborns are not worthy of my attention." which kinda fits at odds with their supposed superior concept of morality because they don't believe in gods.

[–]Tithonos 0 points1 point ago

You are agreeing with me, I think?

First of all, I am an atheist, to clarify. I don't know if you are. But yes, asking if a seed is a plant or if a fetus is a human are questions of what we as humans call things and has nothing to do with religion. An article about religious attacks on abortion clinics is appropriate on r/atheism. This is not.

[–]kingssman 0 points1 point ago

Just glad to see many pro-life atheist who do consider the unborn humans. There's a strange demographic out there that are pro-choice, don't consider a bunch of fertilized cells as human, and pro embryonic stem cell production (soylent green).

Its difficult to even tread in here as being scientific-pro-life without being downvoted into a religious fundie even if such arguments are on a rational scientific reasoning that yes, a fertilized human embryo is indeed a human and can potentially be raised into an amazing human being and denying an unborn a chance at life is the same as denying a toddler a chance at life.

[–]jodle001 0 points1 point ago

Chemical reaction?

[–]kingssman 0 points1 point ago

yea, when combining the DNA of a sperm (which dna is comprised of complex molecules) to the DNA of an egg (again comprised of proteins, molecules, that sort of thing) the two under go splitting and combining which within time the DNA will produce cells and things grow.

Chemistry doesn't have to be simple stuff like water, and iodine, but can involve things like protein lipid, carbon chains, osmosis, cell exchange, metabolic conversions.

[–]breaking_bark -1 points0 points ago

Oh hell yes. This is gonna be the best part of being pregnant. Cannnt wait

[–]fsckit 2 points3 points ago

How long before someone asks if you need help 'getting started'?

[–]withallyourpower -1 points0 points ago

As long as she has a transvaginal ultrasound administered by the officer on scene.

[–]AjazzierHoBo -3 points-2 points ago

Posting to rchristianity. I have been trying to get kicked all day. Still haven't managed to but I bet this takes the cake.

[–]Bronystopheles -2 points-1 points ago*

Yes, even non-pregnant people can use that lane; why would being pregnant disqualify a woman from driving in it?

[–]Cross33 -2 points-1 points ago

No the HOV is designed to take cars off the road, only people who can drive count

[–]darkangelx 2 points3 points ago

False, children count. preggers womens do not.

[–]Cross33 -2 points-1 points ago

Maybe it changes by city, cuz ive always heard it only counted for drivers

[–]darkangelx 2 points3 points ago

I live in a large city and children count.

Just more than 1 person driving solo = High Occupancy.

[–]RapeFagAthiests4God -4 points-3 points ago

You sick non believers would want to rip a pregnant woman's child from her uterus so you can let it ride in the passenger seat to use the carpool lane? I will be praying for you and all the children you have collectively violated you disturbing fuckers.

[–]Cross33 3 points4 points ago

Mmm baby sandwiches are fucking delicious

[–]FreshRight 0 points1 point ago

I'd eat like a million babies if it were legal.

[–]fosaae -2 points-1 points ago

what?? jeez calm down! your username clearly indicates you're a douche... its quite offensive. Also i hope that you've been taking notes on how to think things through rationally and logically now that you've entered an atheist forum. Please do read through more atheist links... you might even start growing a brain.

No one said that they'd rip a pregnant woman's child out. The debate is about at what point you consider it to be a human baby. Now to many religious people its a baby at even an embryo stage so the image here simply poses the question if thats the case then going on a car pooling lane is fine

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