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Descent of the Modernists (i.imgur.com)
submitted 5 months ago by IntensityInEntCity
[–]Ueichen 24 points25 points26 points 5 months ago
No deity before no resurrection? LOL
[–]Dadentum 15 points16 points17 points 5 months ago
Christians don't actually understand why people don't believe, if they did, they wouldn't believe. :p
[–][deleted] 5 months ago
[deleted]
[–]jrdavis1 -2 points-1 points0 points 5 months ago
I don't know you or your dad, but many of my atheist friends who have told their parents end up strongly regretting it. It will fundamentally alter your relationship with your dad. If you don't tell him now, he will probably eventually suspect it anyway. Then you can tell him years from now and it won't be such an earth shattering, heart wrenching thing.
I'm 30 years old. I became an atheist maybe 4 years ago. I chose not to tell my parents, because I value my relationship with them and I know it would crush them. My dad sounds very similar to yours. It really sucks to be forced into this situation with family. There really is no perfect outcome with parents like ours, but there are better outcomes and worse outcomes.
Best of luck, whatever you decide.
[–]ThatOtherGai 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
I was curious about this myself. I don't think they thought this through.
[–]notbusyatall 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
I guess it means even god isn't god-tier?
[–]mpk219 40 points41 points42 points 5 months ago
LOL @ "Descent"
[–][deleted] 23 points24 points25 points 5 months ago
Yes, you see we should "ascend" back to the Dark Ages.
[–]Steve_The_Ogre 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
Wouldn't having the light source at the bottom of the stairs make more sense? Casting darkness on the older thoughts...?
[–]jrdavis1 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
From the perspective of an atheist, modernism is a generally good thing. It's the opposite for many Christians, and I think this drawing was made from the Christian perspective.
[–]Steve_The_Ogre 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Good point, the Christianity step is the highest because the artist feels that is the most respectable place to be? And as we walk away from Christianity we walk towards the darkness. Thus, the descent into darkness. I see your point now.
[–]Vitruvious 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
You need to understand that the more we can see about the world the less we can see about the world.
[–]AnticScarab3 32 points33 points34 points 5 months ago
It's definitely a cool image, but why is "No Deity" halfway between Christianity and atheism? Believing that there is no deity is atheism.
[–]Aryq 12 points13 points14 points 5 months ago
They might be using 'no divinity' as really poor shorthand for 'no divinity of Christ' which would fit the progression quite nicely.
Or they might just be idiots.
[–]AnticScarab3 12 points13 points14 points 5 months ago
But it says "No Deity," not "No Divinity." It's literally saying "There isn't a god."
[–]Jswizzy84 7 points8 points9 points 5 months ago
But often what we say and what we mean are two separate things.
[–]gigamonster1 7 points8 points9 points 5 months ago
No, it says "No Deity," not "No Divinity." It's literally saying "There isn't a god."
also, ever heard of the quote "Say what you mean, Mean what you say"?
[–]case-o-nuts 7 points8 points9 points 5 months ago*
It's rarely used this way today, but deity can also be taken as to mean the rank or essential nature of a god, as in "I do not accept the deity of christ"
[–]Jswizzy84 4 points5 points6 points 5 months ago*
Yea but we can't ask the cartoonist what he meant. And thanks for sharing that quote and input. I think in the context of the 1920s interpenetrating it as divinity works out well enough.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist-Modernist_Controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Christianity
[–]Fordiman 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
"Yea but we can't ask the cartoonist what he meant."
And as a result, should probably take him at his word, rather than wildly speculate just because his word is internally inconsistent.
[–]Jswizzy84 6 points7 points8 points 5 months ago*
Not at all. Sensus literalis and the intentions of the human author or the understanding of the original audience are not always in agreement. Interpretation is necessary for all texts. I can't passively "understand" the text. It has to be evaluated to make sense and fit the context. I can't "wildly" make the text mean just anything their are limits, methods and heuristics for interpenetration.
[–]austinwarren 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
Upvoted for interpenetration.
[–]Jswizzy84 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
spellchecker did that :)
[–]robywar 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago
Like how Tosh said 'No' means work the nipples and try again later?
[–]FreeGiraffeRides 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Ahem, if you go back to the original Hebrew, and look at some synonyms, and then pick one of those instead, you will clearly see how it means something different than it says.
[–]LocalMadman 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Because religious people are stupid. If they weren't, there would be no religious people.
[–]squigs 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago
I suspect it means "No Personal deity"
[–]AnticScarab3 4 points5 points6 points 5 months ago
I stand by my previous statement.
[–]squigs 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
If you're a deist, you don't believe in a personal entity, but do believe in a god of sorts so are clearly not an atheist.
Well, that's my understanding.
[–]OBrien 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
If you don't believe in a theistic/personal god, you're an atheist.
My understanding is that the artist would not consider a person an atheist unless they had an active disbelief in the existence of any god. This would be a common usage of the term and consistent with the cartoon.
[–]Fordiman 4 points5 points6 points 5 months ago
Eh, no. A "Divine clock-maker" deist is not an atheist, though they tend to agree on things. If you believe a god existed, you're a flavor of theist.
[–]Supermoves3000 5 points6 points7 points 5 months ago
The guy at the bottom... is that Sigmund Freud holding a pork-chop?
oh, happy cake day! Enjoy some special brownies.
[–]wilywampa 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Probably a retort.
[–]stonedgeek82 5 points6 points7 points 5 months ago
Why is it upside down?
[–]Capercaillie 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
That's what I thought. Somebody with more art skills than me--and that would be anybody--should fix this.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I can almost guarantee that I have less art skills than you. My circles look like squares.
[–]fingersquid 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago
I think this is cool, but in the American climate and maybe as a political satire I would include a picture of the man walking backwards up the stairs. heh... I live in Mississippi, so I apologize :P
[–]Greyhaven7 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
The creator of this graphic betrays a huge ignorance.
Also, this should be depicted as man climbing out of a hole, not descending a staircase.
[–]atphosphate 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
It isn't pro-atheism, this is a Christian political cartoon from the 1920's. Link to wikipedia
But I agree, the artist is ignorant.
[–]jablair51 4 points5 points6 points 5 months ago
Not sure if you guys realize it but the artist of this cartoon thought that these were all bad things. Christian Fundamentalism started as a knee-jerk reaction to liberal Modernists who were advocating Higher Criticism of the Bible.
[–]MrImmoli 5 points6 points7 points 5 months ago
This looks pro-christianity. Descent has a negative connotation (unless it's just me that thinks that...). Also, the christian is in the light, while the atheist is in darkness. The christian looks more successful and younger than the old, bald atheist that now needs glasses. And what is in the atheist's hands? The other two have books (Bibles?). Looks like some type of rope in his left hand.
[–]Loki-L 4 points5 points6 points 5 months ago
it is pro-christian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Descent_of_the_Modernists,_E._J._Pace,_Christian_Cartoons,_1922.jpg
It was an illustration from a book by William Jennings Bryan who played an important role in the famous scopes trial.
[–]Ray57 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
I think it is a retort.
The age difference shows that gaining of wisdom over the course of a lifetime. The descent from the high tower, shows the "coming to earth" of man's intellect: embracing reality rather that false abstractions.
The final figure has discarded the books of domga and replaced it with an instrument of science.
He is a presses on to carry the flame of human spirit into the darkness of ignorance.
[–]LokiTheFerret 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
In the conotation of wisdom age is a positive qualifier, hence as the former christian ages he seperates from the christian elements and no longer is forced to carry the books.
[–]atheist_maybe 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
But we got progressively more badass.
[–]otakuman 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
Building's on fire, they're going out.
[–]shyloque 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
Only once you are downstairs can you go out and see the world
Hence "above" logic and decending to a less satifying world image
[–]17Hongo 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
Well, humanity had to get off that particular high horse sometime or another. Which would involve a descent.
[–]arcboundbastard 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
I like how the guy on the floor is considerably older than the highest one and they're all walking down, implying that atheism is a consequence of age, and therefore simply the most logical, inevitable conclusion.
[–]rapiertwit 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
I bet there's a cool basement bar at the bottom of those steps.
[–]WoadRaider 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
What a pleasant descent!
[–]NorthernGrim 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
I fell down the Stairs!
[–]thechapattack 5 points6 points7 points 5 months ago
I actually agree with this, but if you are on the "no deity" step thats the bottom lol
[–]jesusonadinosaur 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
that step should say deist
[–]Ikarianlad 11 points12 points13 points 5 months ago
It's a cool progression, but absolute atheism, as opposed to agnosticism or "agnostic atheism" would really be a step backwards. Absolute atheism is the same sort of unproven non-empirical surety that r/atheism always berates Christians for. It is best to say that we do not deny the possibility of a deity, but lack empirical evidence to prove anything other than the absence of one at this point in time.
[–]squigs 6 points7 points8 points 5 months ago
Yes, but this isn't talking about absolute atheism. Just an ontological position that god doesn't exist. This isn't a faith based approach. It's the same reasoning process that says unicorns and tooth fairies don't exist.
[–]Ragnalypse 12 points13 points14 points 5 months ago
Saying you're an "agnostic atheist" is as pointless as saying you're an "agnostic a-unicornist." The general term for someone who is sure of the non-existence of a deity short of the fact that their not "sure" of anything is a "defacto atheist."
[–]megabiceps 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
not really, agnostic refers to not knowing, while atheist refers to belief, or more accurately disbelief. They are completely separate.
[–]Ragnalypse 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Then we're agnostic everything? Defeats the purpose of having the terms gnostic and agnostic then, doesn't it.
In Dawkins words - "De facto atheist - Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.""
[–]megabiceps 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Maybe you are agnostic everything then, but most people aren't, they are sure of what they know.
Also not everyone thinks the probability is very low, in fact I am of the belief that we don't know enough to know what the probability of a god or superior being existing is.
In the end it's all semantics, but the point is agnostic refers to knowing and atheism refers to belief. How you choose to use those words is up to you. The point of using language is to be able to communicate effectively, that is to accurately transmit ideas and information. Using the word agnostic is just another tool, if it helps convey your message to your audience then use it, if it doesn't then don't.
"How you choose to use those words is up to you" What you mean to say is "All evidence shows that how you choose to use those words is up to you" because you're agnostic about it.
"The point of using language is to be able to communicate effectively" What you mean to say is All evidence shows that the point of using language is to be able to communicate effectively" because you're agnostic about it.
Agnostic Atheist is as silly a title as adding on those little modifiers to everything you say. If you're only entertaining a possibility because anything is possible, then you're wasting your time.
[–]johnbentley 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Agnostic Atheist is as silly a title as adding on those little modifiers to everything you say.
Indeed. That other semantic bastardy to come out of internet atheism is to waterdown "atheism" to mean "a lack of belief in God (or Gods)".
[–]Ragnalypse 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Yeah, I don't care for that catching on. When I say I'm an atheist (rarely), I don't mean "oh, but I might believe in reincarnation!"
The real bitch is that the term "naturalist" is near perfect, except it makes you sound like a hippy, not someone who believes in the dominance of natural laws over the nonexistant "supernatural."
Well one problem with "atheism" as "a lack of belief ..." is when some start extending this to babies, so babies become atheists. Under that extension of the meaning cactus are atheists.
Yes the use of the old fashioned "naturalist" is also problem. However, I think the main problem is almost the opposite of what you describe.
The generally relevant meaning of "naturalist" in discussions around atheism/gods (and morality and science) is as a differentiator to the rationalist. When contrasting these two positions the "naturalist", in differentiating themselves from the rationalist, means to allow for the conceptual possibility of the supernatural. That is, that even if there where supernaturally existing entities their character, and the possibility of knowing these, is not to be found by pure reason. So there is a sense in which "naturalism" is a problem because it excludes the "supernatural".
Perhaps, but it speaks of a complete separation of the natural world. If there is a God, it doesn't act on Earth and we don't have souls that are part of "us" that go on after we die.
It basically reduces any possible religious beliefs to "There is a God, but that doesn't concern us" and much more likely "We have no evidence of God, so logically it cannot be a part of reality"
As per a "lack of belief," what are you contrasting that with? Someone who explicitly believes there is no god? While they'd probably be fairly powerful, you'd refer to a very small group of people.
All I was trying to convey was that depending on your audience, using the term agnostic may or may not be redundant, and that not everyone holds the same views on knowledge absolutes as you. For example, if you ask most fundies if they absolutely know 100% that god exists, they will say yes. Most atheists being a bit more rational acknowledge that there is a small possibility for views that they don't believe in.
In this case using the word depends on what you believe and what who you're talking to believes. If you think that there is the same possibility of god existing as the orange in front of you really being an extra terrestial, then yes, it's probably redundant to use it in your context. However, for people of different beliefs it may be more applicable.
[–]kingssman 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
The thing about unicorns is sure they don't exists, neither do giant meat eating lizards with short stubby arms (unless you count the T-Rex)
However, could a unicorn exists? would it be possible through some genetic alteration or evolution mutation for a horse to develop a horn like bulge on top of it's skull to be used as a tool or defense much like antlers on a deer?
If a Narwal can sprout a gigantic unicorn horn....... just sayin. Sure something doesn't exists but it's also plausible that it could exist. Much like a T-Rex doesn't exist, but it did exist at one time and could possibly exist.
[–]brmj 7 points8 points9 points 5 months ago
Absolute Atheism is pretty much just a strawman, though. No one actually makes that claim. Instead, most of the viewpoints that look that way are really just probabilistic atheism with such a low probability assigned to the god hypothesis that it ranks alongside leprechauns and the invisible dragon in the garage, and as such is unworthy of serious consideration and can be assumed to be false in the absence of new evidence.
[–]rasputine 7 points8 points9 points 5 months ago
Well, some people certainly make that claim. Some people juggle geese.
[–]ChemicalSerenity 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
People who juggle geese are going to a special hell, one reserved for rush limbaugh advertisers and people who text at the movies.
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 5 months ago
Uh, I do.
[–]brmj 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Really? You take all possible gods as false in the 2 + 2 = 5 sense, not just in the "there is an invisible, intangible, radar-permeable and silent fairy that floats around somewhere in the upper atmosphere" sense? If so, do you have a decent grasp of probability? Bayesian, not frequentist? How about on an intuitive level?
Sure, the Christian god is logically impossible if it combines certain attributes often attributed to it, but some points in the space of things one might call a god are in no way logically impossible. Instead, they are just so vanishingly unlikely that based on our current knowledge, their probability, while a finite positive number, might as well be zero. We are talking many, many nines here.
[–]OBrien 6 points7 points8 points 5 months ago
There's a certain amount of semantics regarding what qualifies as a god here.
Any omnipotent being? Yeah, that's pretty easily 100% dismissable with a couple demonstrations of paradox.
Any entity from a list of worshipped gods in human history? Yeah, they've all be verifiably falsified.
A completely attributeless 'something' that could possibly be interpreted to fit within the vague definition of a 'higher power', fuck no.
Granted, if you're going to posit a descartian demon as possible, even 2+2=5 is something to be agnostic about.
[–]I_DRINK_PERIOD_BLOOD 13 points14 points15 points 5 months ago
Yeah I came here to say I'm tired of Agnosticism and Atheism being considered two different things. I also agree that any kind of gnosticism is arrogant.
[–]stardonis 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Agnosticism is some kind of slippery waffle-word when viewed by many of the xtians around here (where I live). At least when it comes to my atheism. It really does make them feel better when I reinforce my religious position and then use the agnost-vocab word.
It is kind of cute (just a little weird) to have people worried about my soul when, according to their rules, I'm done.
[–]yakushi12345 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
that only holds if you can show there are definitions of god that aren't self contradictory and are worth calling god.
[–]psychjoe -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
Came here to see the debate on atheism versus agnosticism. Wasn't disappointed.
[–]zfusfeld -2 points-1 points0 points 5 months ago
came here to say this.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Excellent! But I would personally change some steps, it should be imo :
Christianity - Bible not infallible - Man not made in God's image - No atonement - No virgin Birth - No resurrection - No Miracles - Agnosticism - No Deity - Atheism
[–]Doghound 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
If you're going to rearrange, then take agnosticism out. See here for a succinct explanation: http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/r7q1a/descent_of_the_modernists/c43kunm
[–]fullauto223cal 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Are there any artist types out there who can create a FIXED version of this?
[–]ethertrace 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
The top steps should be bigger. Those are the hardest ones to get past.
[–]OverlyHelpfulAdvice 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Is middle guy holding hands with the darkness?
[–]Dickybow 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Cartoon from 1922!
[–]DFractalH 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
The steps are kind of accurate, though.
[–]scottles 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Obviously a joke I suppose because clearly the man ought to be going up the stairs.
[–]sirderpy 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
I like to think it leads to a basement jazz club where all the cool atheists hang out
[–]Sharukurusu 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
I like to think he's going down to the wine cellar to enjoy the real pleasures of life...
[–]ByzantineBasileus 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Yup, gotta hate that smug sense of certainty in religious people that only they are on the true path.....
[–]dumnezero 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
just walking out of the sanatorium
[–]Gravyness 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
One step later: "NO SHIT."
[–]badbluemoon 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
That's actually kinda how it happened, really, except for that weird placement of "no deity."
[–]WashburnRocks 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Labels on the last step and the floor are in the wrong order...
[–]Tachyx 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Escher
[–]TylFTygard 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
The stairs are going the wrong way.
[–]runujhkj 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
For the love of all that isn't holy. Agnosticism is not atheism "light." You can be both.
[–]joshsaldana 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Too bad it isn't ascent. I think this is actually mocking modernists, with the sad people, dark style, the way it looks like they are going into a basement.
[–]science_diction 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
No comprendo. Typically "modernism" is a school of writing attributed to Hemingway and Wolf in post WWI that has nothing to do with atheism or theism directly. It has more to do with searching for meaning and a value of human life in a post WWI world. It can also be a design school of the 1950s. I'm sure there ar emany uses of the term, but the first I go to (and most literary people) would be to modernism as a literary concept.
[–]TierOne 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Once you become an atheist you look like Walter White?
[–]ImAFlyingWhale 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Sorry, "Descent"?
[–]JakeLV426 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
It should be an ascent, obviously.
[–]Cis4Psycho 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I can't wait for my sweet ass Monopoly man look to kick in
[–]excommunicated 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Sure was nice to get out of that house and out into the real world.
[–]fishlegs5 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
getting back down to reality
[–]Philile 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
No miracles->No virgin birth->No Deity->No ressurection.
What have we learned? The virgin birth wasn't a miracle, God straight up raped a ho. Also, God wasn't a god, just a rapist. Also, zombies, but not magic zombies.
[–]LBK2013 -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
Why has the been upvoted so much? Descent of Modernist? Thats a horrible way to look at it. If you feel more enlightened than theist then this stair case should be moving you up not downwards. It should be the ascent of modernist. Its fairly obvious to me that the author did not intend for this to be circlejerk fodder for atheist. I'm not sure that any english speaking country would view moving down as a positive thing.
[–]amadorUSA -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
If you don't credit the original source, this shouldn't even make it to front page.
[–]ThroughTheVoid -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| What this? oh i'm just keeping track of the number of times I see this image around here.
[–]atphosphate 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
What? This cartoon was a christian debate tactic... Woops
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
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[–]Ueichen 24 points25 points26 points ago
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