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What if... (i.imgur.com)
submitted 6 months ago by Axin13
[–]Eridanus_Supervoid 12 points13 points14 points 6 months ago
This actually isn't terribly ignorant of evolution. The evolution of traits leading sexual organisms to, for example, produce more males or females depending on environmental cues is well-documented.
It honestly wouldn't seriously surprise me if there was a higher percentage of homosexuals in more affluent societies than poorer ones, for example (though it'd be really hard to get a reliable statistic, since discrimination tends to be even worse in poorer countries and people would be even more unreliable about telling the truth).
Nevertheless, it's an annoying meme.
[–]FeignsInterest 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
It would be in the same vein of the evolutionary path of altruism genes in aphids. That kind of thing.
[–]FreeGiraffeRides 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Yeah, it sounds at least superficially plausible that traits could emerge which limit fertility in order to improve the overall survivability of a population, and that homosexuality might be one of them.
[–]MrMastodon 5 points6 points7 points 6 months ago
Homosexuality is the genophage of humans. Interesting.
[–]BenderIsntBonder 6 points7 points8 points 6 months ago
except that our genes work at the genetic level not at the population level.
[–]Dudesan 4 points5 points6 points 6 months ago
Inclusive Fitness, bro. A gene that harms its host can be favoured, so long as the harm is outweighed by a sufficient benefit to the host's kin (who might also carry the gene).
How else do you think colonial animals like ants, for whom only one organism in thousands actually reproduces, could come to be?
[–]BenderIsntBonder 4 points5 points6 points 6 months ago
I'm aware of the concept "bro." That is actually brought about by the genetic level - genes just wanna make sure they survive. That's what it all comes down to, not survival at the population level but at the genetic level. I recommend the Selfish Gene, it's a brilliant read.
[–]1877KARS4KIDS 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Genes don't just thrive through the individual though, they also thrive through groups. Not so much in the last 2000 years, but when there were sparse tribes of people, one tribe may have fared better due to a negative trait for the individual, but a positive trait for the group.
[–]sndzag1 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
I also heard some study that said the more children a woman had, the more likely the next child was to be gay? If this is true, it's entirely possible that natural selection accounts for overpopulation with homosexuality.
[–]HouseRuleNumber4 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
I read this once, but it was that younger sons after having previously had a son mean the younger son had a higher incidence of homosexuality. And the authors attributed this to altered hormones of the woman.
Right, that's what I heard as well. I wonder if that was naturally selected, or if it's just one of those things that happens that is neither entirely positive or negative to the survival of the organism.
[–]MJMCP 4 points5 points6 points 6 months ago
And then, like, cats are the SAME THING because old cat ladies never have kiiidsss.
Whhoooaaa
[–]PsychoBugler 6 points7 points8 points 6 months ago
Pussy is just like homosexuality!
[–]sndzag1 4 points5 points6 points 6 months ago
I have you tagged "old in gay years". I wish I could remember why.
[–]PsychoBugler 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
I actually remember why.
[–]SoetSout 16 points17 points18 points 6 months ago*
uhmm.... this is the real reason.
Ive read of a study(will post link when i find it). where they used some sort of insect that has a short lifespan(6-7 days). The creature were left in a huge glass container, and they were fed, and they kept multiplying and multiplying fast. but soon they reached the limit of the tank. then after a while Homosexuality stepped in, and then the number decreased and STAYED an average amount. for 6 months. after which the experiment ended.
would love to find the link to the study to show.
Completely understand why people will be sceptical without evidence, will post when/if i find.
Edit: I remembered the insect it was a fruit fly... now to get that damn article...
Will check with friend tonight if we can find it.
gay is supposedly a gene(according to many experiment done over different species of animals, Google it). Therefore isnt it safe to say its evolution?
[–]turkishroyals 19 points20 points21 points 6 months ago*
I have a hard time believing this because evolution does not enforce self sacrificing behavior. How could a gene that codes for an absence of reproduction be passed down be and more abundant in a species that reproduces sexually?
[–]muonicdischarge 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
I read something about an "immune response" in women that give birth to multiple males contributing to a higher chance of homosexuality in each consecutive male they give birth to. I'm not sure if it's entirely evolutionary in that the gene appears in situations of overpopulation, because that wouldn't make much sense. Genes don't just appear to accommodate a problem, they appear somewhat randomly and those with the genes live on or die off based on its survival benefits. Don't know what this says about how homosexuality comes up in a species, but I don't think it's really a hereditary trait, rather it's more like gender in the way it appears. Still don't get how overpopulation would contribute, save for more babies means more likelihood of homosexual offspring.
[–]PTTGx2 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
Relatives. A gay creature will still contribute to the survival of the children of its relatives.
[–]TomorrowPlusX 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
And society as well -- gay members of society can and do contribute in the same sorts of ways as heterosexual members.
Well, you know until they start getting married and then hellfire and earthquakes destroy everything.
[–]LeSpatula 4 points5 points6 points 6 months ago
It doesn't have to be genetic. It could be epigenetic, which could change the gene expression of the offspring in just one generation, e.g. depending on environmental influences.
[–]SweetNeo85 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
What about honeybees who sting (thereby killing themselves) for the good of the colony?
[–]poiliticommonsense 3 points4 points5 points 6 months ago
Evolution supports survival of the species. Population control is a support system used the maintain the survival of the species.
[–]TheSkewedReview 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
It's true. If a species, especially a cognoscente one that could see its own impending doom, were to reach a point of potential over-population, then it would take measures to control its own population. I'd like to think most humans realize that sustainability is basically impossible at the rate of exponential growth. Now imagine if every gay person were actually straight and having babies. Yikes.
I hope I'm not coming off as homophobic. I am gay, after all. And I keep trying with my partner to have kids. Trying and trying. But... it just doesn't seem to work. EVOLUTION I SAY! ;)
[–]scienceagain 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of evolution.
[–]Wootery 5 points6 points7 points 6 months ago
You're right, poiliticommonsense is wrong, but your post doesn't really help him...
Evolution supports survival of the species. This is incorrect. It supports survival of genes. I recommend you read The Selfish Gene - Dawkins refers to this misunderstanding as group-selection, and discusses it at length.
I have responded to too many of these to get into it every time someone says something wrong about evolution.
[–]poiliticommonsense 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I started reading TSG...you're right. I'm wrong. Sorry. blushes
[–]aprost 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Read about an experiment where they crowded rats in a room. After a while over 5% of the rats became homosexual. The conclusion was that being in crowded spaces for extended time activates an instinct of homosexuality in some individuals. In terms of evolutionary advantages, this helps to control overpopulation, and ensures greater survival rates of the existing offspring (more adults per kid = more protection). They also mentioned that people who live in big crowded cities are statistically more likely to be gay. But that could just be due to all those cowboys staying in the closet...
[–]fetus_eater_skywalka 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
homosexuality is passed down through bisexuality
[–]BullNiro 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
I will try to make this simple.
So firstly, we all have two copies of every gene which isn't on a sex chromosome.
One gene can affect multiple phenotypes and if you have different versions on each chromosome then it may not be black and white but come out a shade of grey. Imagine the "gay version" of the gene allows you to run faster so people with one copy of each are heterosexual but can run faster than people without a copy of the "gay version".
Also, here is a paper on alturism in rats. Plus if everyone has the "self-sacrifice" gene then maybe everyone stands a better chance. Genetics and evolution is not about the individual.
Imagine the "gay version" of the gene allows you to run faster so people with one copy of each are heterosexual but can run faster than people without a copy of the "gay version".
Yes, this is typically referred to as heterozygote advantage (or some analog for polygenic traits). This hypothesis contradicts your "self-sacrifice" idea.
Also, here is a paper on alturism in rats.
Please don't ever link to a non-peer-reviewed article again. We have no way of knowing what the data from whatever study they were referencing actually means. People tend to get reciprocal altruism confused with true altruism.
Plus if everyone has the "self-sacrifice" gene then maybe everyone stands a better chance.
This is not correct. Everyone having a "self-sacrifice" gene is not an evolutionarily stable strategy, and would not be able to evolve in an environment where a "non-self-sacrifice" allele existed.
Genetics and evolution is not about the individual.
I don't know what you are trying to say. There are few cases where selection occurs at the group level. Yes, individuals don't evolve, populations do. But the selective pressure for evolution predominantly occurs at the individual level.
I full well know what heterozygote advantage is, I was trying to make it easy to understand, you know, being helpful.
If you had read the article I linked to and used your, seemingly rather capable, brain you could have easily tracked down the paper, Bartal et al. in pdf form.
I will admit that the "self-sacrifice" allele piece of my comment was mainly conjecture and that I am by no means particularly learned in this field of Biology; however, what I was getting at with saying "genetics and evolution [are] not about the individual" is this perception, I have found, amongst even rather intelligent lay people that evolution happens in individuals rather than populations.
But thanks for taking time out of your day to try and make me feel stupid, I will refrain from trying to assist people in things I am not well versed in again.
I waste enough time tracking down papers that are actually relevant to my research. I try to avoid doing this in my free time (hence my exasperation).
what I was getting at with saying "genetics and evolution [are] not about the individual" is this perception, I have found, amongst even rather intelligent lay people that evolution happens in individuals rather than populations.
That's what I hoped you were saying. However, remember there are other misconception you may be unintentionally reinforcing if you aren't clear.
But thanks for taking time out of your day to try and make me feel stupid
I'm sorry that I came off so harsh, but as you can imagine I was not in a good mood after reading the comments about this post.
I will refrain from trying to assist people in things I am not well versed in again.
I would be happier if we could get the people who "have no idea what they're talking about" to feel this way, rather than those like you who are just "not well versed".
[–]BullNiro 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Yeah man, I know what you were getting at, sorry about taking it so personally, it was at the end of a twenty hour day of university and then work at 4am.
[–]OneShotHelpful -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 months ago
I have a hard time, too. But it IS possible, and does make a sort of sense.
At carrying capacity, a population will fluctuate around the actual capacity with arcs and troughs in population. They recover too much, then die off. The higher the recovery, generally the deeper the ensuing trough. The deeper the trough, the more likely it is that a disaster, drought, disease, or new species could cause the local extinction of the population.
It's theoretically possible that homosexuality could step in to help smooth out this curve, thus avoiding the vulnerability. There's plenty of precedent in genetics that shows that harmful genes can be maintained in a population if their difficult to express but have some small chance of benefit in specific circumstances.
/undergrad bio major
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 6 months ago
It doesn't make sense. Genes are not self aware nor can they actively change themselves to fit an environment, they get weeded out by natural selection. Homosexuality wouldn't just kick in, because genes don't know there's overpopulation, so they wouldn't know to make more homosexuals. I don't know, seems farfetched to me, but I'm no expert.
[–]virnovus 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
It's not genes, so much as prenatal hormones. I read a study on rats where they found that stressed mother rats tended to give birth to babies exhibiting homosexual behavior. This is possible genetically, for the same reason that altruism can be genetic. Don't forget, most of the evolution of humanity has been in tribes; a tribe in which the population constantly increased whether or not there was enough food could die out entirely during a bad famine. Whereas, a tribe that kept its population in check would be more likely to survive a famine.
[–]Msj2705 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Prenatal hormones can explain a lot of things.
They're the only reason why identical twins look different, too!
A difference in brow height, jaw size, and eye shape can all be explained because a certain hormone was found in concentrations .01% higher on the left side than the right side of the uterus.
(This is also why there were some visible differences between Dolly and the clone)
Crazy stuff.
[–]scienceagain 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
You have a horrible understanding of evolution.
[–]AKASquared 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
But free-riding on other members of your species doing the evening-out gives your genes an advantage in the real contest, becoming proportionally more common. You're still asking them to take one for the team. You need a mind with a sense of ethics or loyalty for that to happen, but natural selection has none of those things.
[–]WorkingMouse -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
That's actually not true. For a prime example, take a look at ants, termites, and other colony-making insects; self-sacrifice is not at all uncommon.
Further, in a social creature, the free-riding members are disfavored by those who seek to either A) mate with the noble self-sacrifices or B) punish the layabouts, both of which are visible in mammal populations in nature.
[–]daretoslakc 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago*
In the case of social insects, non-reproducing organisms still gain an evolutionary advantage for their GENES in situations where their self-sacrifice results in greater propagation of their genes through their kin who also share those genes.
Think about some female birds who have evolved to stay in their birth nest and help nurture their future siblings in conditions where finding a new, unoccupied nest is difficult and/or rare. They fail to propagate their own gene sequence, but the genes which support this behavior still gain an evolutionary advantage overall by being more likely to be passed on through those siblings.
In the case of the fruit flies, while the whole population would certainly benefit from some members opting out of reproduction, the genes which support this behavior would obviously quickly become rarer than those which do not, since these organism's peers would still be breeding at a greater rate. This is not an evolutionary advantage for organisms which contain these homosexuality genes and shouldn't be expected to spread as a result. Basically it sounds like you're talking about group selection, when even in the case of social insects you're still looking at gene-level selection. Evolution favors those organisms and their genes which have the most fitness RIGHT NOW, and couldn't give a fuck about the idea of extinction events wiping the entire species. Basically, the male ant sacrifices its reproductive chances because it benefits him (well, his genes), not because it wants all its ant buddies to survive the winter.
Mind you, the whole situation may be one where the math works out even if that explanation makes very little sense on the surface. But if I observed that kind of behavior, my guess (and subject for further experimentation) would be that the homosexual behavior is a side effect of a gene sequence which otherwise benefited the organisms. For example, a gene which allowed you to survive with less food would be a great gene to have even if some percentage of your offspring would fail to reproduce as a result of you having this gene, provided the advantage of needing less food was greater than the disadvantage of some of your offspring being genetic dead ends. Or maybe the gene normally provides some fitness benefit, but produces homosexual behavior only when two copies of the gene are inherited or only in one gender. A gene which benefits females and only hurts males is only going to be inherited by half of those female's male offspring. If the advantage to the female is large enough, that gene is still going to be selected for. (And as people below are mentioning, epigenetics could mean that the disadvantage may only show up given some specific environmental pressure currently existing (maybe some aspect of overpopulation itself), and otherwise that disadvantage phenotype is never expressed.)
[–]WorkingMouse 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
You've hit the nail on the head - it would appear that my rather basic attempt to explain some of the above has not been well-recieved, so I appreciate your willingness to elaborate; you tackled points I hadn't thought to bring up as well.
I was simply trying to point out that there are ways that self-sacrificial or altruistic behavior could be evolutionarily favored. That's the entire reason I brought up insect colonies; they provide an example where the workers are non-reproductive but the queen makes sure those genes are passed on, if you will.
Once more, this is much appreciated.
[–]daretoslakc 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Yeah, I was pretty sure you had a good idea what you were talking about, but some of the language came across as promoting group selection. Good to know we're on the same page.
You've gotten lost in the woods here. Non-reproductive insects specialize in such a way that their reproductive kin have vastly more surviving offspring. Evolution selects for vastly more surviving offspring. But that's the problem if you're worried about overpopulation. Whether you want the population to be lower overall or just less fluctuations between highs and lows, you need fewer surviving offspring. If specializing in food-gathering rather than reproduction gives your half-sister such advantages that it increases the numbers of your alleles around, then that specialization is what you've got to stop if you're going to limit overproduction.
So what? In this context "not free-riding" means not reproducing. You de-selected yourself already.
[–]WorkingMouse 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
You've missed the point. Picture two competing populations, both using the same resources, who are at carrying capacity and thus approaching overpopulation. If one population contains genetic factors which cause some members that carry them to become non-reproductive, instead allowing them to provide social benefit for the remainder of that population's offspring, where as the other population merely reproduces, the better-cared-for offspring in the first group will be more likely to survive and out-compete those of the second, and the genes responsible for some of the members of the first population becoming non-reproductive will be favored overall.
Remember, evolutionary fitness is not merely number of surviving offspring, but number of surviving offspring which also survive to reproduce (and so on, and so on).
And you're not seriously thinking that I'm considering a gene with full penetrance or constitutive expression, are you?
Sheesh, I was giving a basic example to demonstrate that there are ways to evolutionary favor traits that result in non-reproduction; it's not difficult to apply that to the matter at hand.
In this context? In this context, sexuality is not a black or white issue, but a broad scale of possible preferences, and therefore must be considered not merely as reproductive/nonreproductive but graded accordingly. I wasn't talking about this specific context to begin with, but merely demonstrating that your blanket statement was false. If I wanted to address your context, I would have began by pointing out that you're using a gross oversimplification.
[–]AKASquared 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago*
That's a pretty story but it just doesn't work that way:
The mathematical conditions for group selection overcoming individual selection were too extreme to be found in Nature. Why not create them artificially, in the laboratory? Michael J. Wade proceeded to do just that, repeatedly selecting populations of insects for low numbers of adults per subpopulation. And what was the result? Did the insects restrain their breeding and live in quiet peace with enough food for all? No; the adults adapted to cannibalize eggs and larvae, especially female larvae. Of course selecting for small subpopulation sizes would not select for individuals who restrained their own breeding; it would select for individuals who ate other individuals' children. Especially the girls. Once you have that experimental result in hand—and it's massively obvious in retrospect—then it suddenly becomes clear how the original group selectionists allowed romanticism, a human sense of aesthetics, to cloud their predictions of Nature.
The mathematical conditions for group selection overcoming individual selection were too extreme to be found in Nature. Why not create them artificially, in the laboratory? Michael J. Wade proceeded to do just that, repeatedly selecting populations of insects for low numbers of adults per subpopulation. And what was the result? Did the insects restrain their breeding and live in quiet peace with enough food for all?
No; the adults adapted to cannibalize eggs and larvae, especially female larvae.
Of course selecting for small subpopulation sizes would not select for individuals who restrained their own breeding; it would select for individuals who ate other individuals' children. Especially the girls.
Once you have that experimental result in hand—and it's massively obvious in retrospect—then it suddenly becomes clear how the original group selectionists allowed romanticism, a human sense of aesthetics, to cloud their predictions of Nature.
The problems humans have traditionally dealt with are things like "there's not enough food, but if we kill an auroch there will be" or "that tribe from one valley over is muscling in on our resources". Problems where a willingness to take risks for the group, or even to sacrifice for the group (who were also your relatives) would pay off in inclusive fitness. But none were ever solved by restricting population size; there's no scenario where that gets altruism selected for. After having evolved minds that favor altruism as a general principle, and then running into overpopulation, we might choose to limit reproduction over time scales too short for natural selection to have much effect, but that's another question entirely.
[–]PartyLogic -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
I heard about a study that said that each male sibling born in a family has an increasing probability of being homosexual over the previous one. This would make sense because there would be more males in the environment which would cause some problems for the community. If families in ancient times were more likely to produce homosexual males if they produce more males, then it is possible that the (primitive) community would be more likely to have their families survive and pass on the genes that caused the late male homosexuality, even if it is not passed on by the homosexual male himself. Just a thought.
[–]scienceagain -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
If families in ancient times were more likely to produce homosexual males if they produce more males, then it is possible that the (primitive) community would be more likely to have their families survive and pass on the genes that caused the late male homosexuality, even if it is not passed on by the homosexual male himself. Just a thought.
This is not correct.
[–]PartyLogic 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
I said it was a possibility, but I would love to hear why you would disagree.
I said it was a possibility
True, maybe I should have said "this is unsupported by evidence and contradicts current scientific consensus".
Going back a step:
This would make sense because there would be more males in the environment which would cause some problems for the community.
First: Yes, there would be more males. Do you mean there would be more males than females? This is not true. It would still be, on average, (approximately, for unrelated negligible reasons) half male/half female. How would this cause a problem.
Second: the unit of selection of evolution is not at the community level. It is at the individual level (and sometimes at the family level in cases of kin selection). Evidence for group selection in nature is scant, and what does exist applies mostly to viruses and bacteria.
it is possible that the (primitive) community would be more likely to have their families survive and pass on the genes that caused the late male homosexuality
There is no reason to think that a homosexual male would have an increased inclusive fitness, especially since males invest much less into sexual reproduction than females.
Would you make the same argument for infertile males as you would for homosexual males?
[–]PartyLogic 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago*
Overpopulation would be a problem. Over competition for mates and resources would be a problem. You don't know that the female/male population would stay half and half. The same late sibling homosexuality may also exist for females but there has not been a study yet.
It is certainly possible for genes to be spread within and be contained within a primitive society. If a society that has females that produce a homosexual male every 3rd male birth, and that controlled and preserved their population by reducing male competition, reducing sexually transmitted diseases and reduced competition for resources, then that community would be more likely to survive in certain environments over a society that just continues producing males that all have the same goals. The females in the society would pass on the late sibling homosexuality trait to their daughters as well, as they and their daughters would be more likely to survive in the non-overpopulated and society. Keep in mind that this is just my possible explanation for why each male born in a family is more likely to be homosexual. I would really like to hear your explanation and why it makes more sense.
Apparently you missed what I said about the homosexual male not being the one to pass on the homosexual gene. The homosexual gene could be passed on by the females that are surviving because the homosexual gene is being passed on in there community.
[–]txjuit 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
i asked science once and they told me this could never happen.
[–]Freak_in_cage 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago*
There's a lot of crap that makes into askscience answers, especially when not coming from a most respected panelist (pfft). And your answer came from someone who seems to really like to put out other people's fires. In short, enough research has yet to be done. The reality is that having homosexual members in a population DOES increase the overall fitness of reproducing individuals. The first answer on that page has a lot of the facts right but then draws conclusions in a strange way. Claiming that homosexuality is even remotely hereditary seems silly, there would be more evidence for it, an epigenetic factor is a better idea. Saying that gay people back in the day have stealthed their gayness genes through the generations is absurd and has no base. There's plenty of genealogies where homosexuality just springs up (regardless of moral shame, it would be more prevalent if it was something you could pass on). We also see this "helping" behavior in a vast range of species including primates. There was a study somewhere (just google it) that suggested that the amount of OLDER siblings you have is proportionate to the probability that you are homosexual, but I'm not sure how they explained the feedback required for such a mechanism. But that would keep in with the idea that homosexuality is a "selfless" gene or altruistic gene in biological terms.
Claiming that homosexuality is even remotely hereditary seems silly, there would be more evidence for it, an epigenetic factor is a better idea.
Epigenetic changes are hereditary.
Saying that gay people back in the day have stealthed their gayness genes through the generations is absurd and has no base.
I don't think "stealth" is a verb. I don't know what your trying to say. What claim are you refuting?
There's plenty of genealogies where homosexuality just springs up (regardless of moral shame, it would be more prevalent if it was something you could pass on).
What do you mean it would be more prevalent if it was something you could pass on? That is not true. There are plenty of things "you could pass on" that are not prevalent at all.
We also see this "helping" behavior in a vast range of species including primates.
Please cite your sources, recent studies I have read did not show a difference in "helping" behavior between heterosexual and homosexual male siblings.
There was a study somewhere (just google it) that suggested that the amount of OLDER siblings you have is proportionate to the probability that you are homosexual, but I'm not sure how they explained the feedback required for such a mechanism.
This study refers specifically to older brothers of male siblings. It is hypothesized to be caused by progressive maternal immunosensitization to male sex hormones.
But that would keep in with the idea that homosexuality is a "selfless" gene or altruistic gene in biological terms.
Wrong for two reasons: First, this would not support a "selfless" gene, it would more likely just be a byproduct of our immune system (cf. erythroblastosis fetalis), and does not imply any evolutionary advantage. Second, if homosexuality were selected for by kin selection due to the advantage conferred to relatives, this would not be a "selfless" or altruistic gene since it is in the genes "self-interest" to cause a homosexual phenotype.
[–]Freak_in_cage 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
First off, this should have been prefaced with the fact that gayness isn't necessarily a gene, it's a trait and I proceeded with my language on the assumption that we are arguing about it as a gene.I just want to say that you seem childish about my post, particularly because you nit picked a few things, like stealth being a verb and my attempts at giving people easily intelligible answers instead of making them go read 3 different publications and also have them attend a few college classes so that they can even begin to understand the jargon used in them. (TL;DR: get over yourself, colloquialism is far from sin on a damn social media site)
Anyway Epigenetic factors ARE hereditary, but not in the common sense of the word that you are passing on actual genetic code for "being gay". This is all I meant by that, ffs.
Also, yeah kid, there are plenty of things we can pass on that aren't prevalent but that isn't mutually exclusive with the converse. I think you must have read it wrong. There was a claim on that post about gay people being forced throughout history to reproduce and thus the gay "gene" has survived. That's what I was talking about with stealth. It's a baseless claim that shouldn't have been accepted on askscience since it's little more than speculation. Did I mention that there simply hasn't been enough research on the subject?
Again, you misunderstand. And the only reason I'm not citing sources is cause this is the internet (you can google stuff) and not a fucking dissertation (meaning this is supposed to be friendly conversation and I couldn't care any less if you actually believed me). If you wanted a conversation with citings, you should lead by example or go to askscience.
Lastly, biological selfishness refers to preserving personal (individual) genetic data in the form of posterity and if homosexuality IS selected for by kin selection (meaning the homosexual individual is essentially giving up their reproductive rights so that their kin can have a better chance at producing viable offspring) I fail to see how that does not constitute being an altruistic gene. An altruistic gene can have a "self-interest" to keep itself in frequency if it provides more fitness overall for it's kin, there's really no rule against that. Also, this last paragraph is all that we should be talking about, not how unrefined I am when talking on the internet about something you're interested in.
First off, this should have been prefaced with the fact that gayness isn't necessarily a gene, it's a trait and I proceeded with my language on the assumption that we are arguing about it as a gene.
Yes, that's a good point to clarify.
I just want to say that you seem childish about my post, particularly because you nit picked a few things, like stealth being a verb
I only said that because I didn't know what you were trying to say.
get over yourself, colloquialism is far from sin on a damn social media site
what colloquialism did I have a problem with you using?
There was a claim on that post about gay people being forced throughout history to reproduce and thus the gay "gene" has survived. That's what I was talking about with stealth.
I must have missed that post. I agree it is baseless.
I fail to see how that does not constitute being an altruistic gene. An altruistic gene can have a "self-interest" to keep itself in frequency if it provides more fitness overall for it's kin, there's really no rule against that.
This does conflict with the definition of "true altruism". I have noticed that there are papers that use "altruism" to refer to "kin altruism", so I guess I should have first asked about how you were defining it.
But I think you should agree that if a gene is acting in its own "self-interest" by indirectly increasing its frequency in the population through an advantage to related individuals then it should hardly be considered "altruistic", since altruism is generally defined as benefiting others at one's own expense.
Of course this is all covered in detail in The Selfish Gene (which, since this is in r/atheism, you have probably already heard about and read).
[–]Hydronum 6 points7 points8 points 6 months ago
Commenting so I can find this post later. I am quite interested. :)
[–]candre23 5 points6 points7 points 6 months ago
Get RES and you can save individual posts (plus a lot of other nifty features).
[–]iama_XXL 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Reminds me of Ricky Gervais' bit on homosexual animals. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIcrCZQkSlg
[–]andersonb47 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
I'm not sure about this. Evolution works when a mutation benefits an individual. Evolving to be homosexual may help a collective, but it doesn't help the individual that developed the trait. Furthermore, being homosexuality makes the individual much less likely to go on to breed successfully, which is kind of the whole point.
I'm not a scientist so I could be wrong. Am I?
[–]SoetSout -2 points-1 points0 points 6 months ago
well, we are talking in terms off overpopulation. Perhaps we all have this gene locked away somewhere, and when over population sinks in, it starts to surface.
there is never a need for EVERYBODY to participate in the same thing, only the majority is needed and all is fine.
[–]VLDT 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Evolution is the slow process of change in an entire species over time via genetic mutations. Homosexuality is the same now as it ever has been, among all species. It just happens.
In a macrobiological sense it could be considered an evolutionary development.
[–]nanuen 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
it would seem that the study itself is in a bit of rough weather: "Drosophila courtship is a complex behavior. A new study shows that glia modulate neurotransmission to influence male preference, but the authors should have resisted the temptation to describe their results in tabloid language."
http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v11/n1/full/nn0108-8.html
[–]MormonAtheist 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
If this was true wouldn't we see higher rates of homosexuality in really crowded areas like Beijing, Hong King or New York City?
We do see higher rates of gay people in densely populated areas such as New York and San Francisco. Therefore, this must be true.
[–]deepwebassassin 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
You sir ( or madam ), are a great person.
[–]stacyah 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
gay is supposedly a gene
Quick response to that here.
Now, about the experiment, more studies than that have found that the incidence of non-heterosexual behaviour does increase in response to increased population density, as well as other behaviours that threaten the survival of the population such as poor infant care and cannibalism. Population density and social pathology.
[–]SoetSout 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
lol funny link
[–]Polykatana -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
I always though that this was a good possibility. We seem to adapt to our circumstances in a vast assortment of interesting ways.
[–]px403 -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
Ya, it also goes really well with these findings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_male_sexual_orientation
In a highly populated society, it doesn't really matter who falls in love with who, because reproduction is not as high of a priority.
thanks, never knew much about this. Looks like something worth looking into.
It does not go "really well" with those findings.
Evolution does not occur for the good of the species. Genes are selected for because they benefit individuals or family members. There is no evidence to indicate that this is what is happening with homosexuality.
If this were the case, would you also expect infertility to be selected for?
First, for the vast majority of our evolution humans did not live in highly populated societies. Second, reproduction is still just as relevant to evolution today as it ever was in the past. The main difference is that selective pressures are very different today compared to much of our evolutionary history.
[–]px403 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
How can you claim that evolution only benefits the individual? Humans are social creatures. We aren't all evolving towards a singular perfect being, we are evolving as societies. Women under stress are significantly less fertile, and for damn good reasons. These stressors are placed on women by the societies they live in. Birthrate drops significantly in broken societies, and explodes in successful ones, so how can you say evolution has nothing to do with society?
We evolved in such a way that 2% of us are psychopaths, any more or less would make society less fit to reproduce in. A basketball team with all Michael Jordans would fail miserably against a team of players with diverse skills that know how to work together. We are evolving as random mutants that all fit together to make a working society. There is no ideal human, there is no set of traits that always wins, only more and less successful societies, and the people they generate.
How can you claim that evolution only benefits the individual?
I don't make that claim. Evolution can incidentally benefit all of us (depending on how you define benefit), but the selective pressure occurs on the individual.
We aren't all evolving towards a singular perfect being
Correct. We're not evolving towards anything. There's no such thing as a perfect being.
we are evolving as societies.
I'm not sure what you mean.
Women under stress are significantly less fertile, and for damn good reasons. These stressors are placed on women by the societies they live in. Birthrate drops significantly in broken societies, and explodes in successful ones, so how can you say evolution has nothing to do with society?
Are you implying that the women evolved to have a decrease in fertility due to stress? This is completely unfounded.
Birthrate drops significantly in broken societies, and explodes in successful ones, so how can you say evolution has nothing to do with society?
This phenomenon is incidental. Evolutionary information is carried by genes, which are expressed phenotypically by individuals.
We evolved in such a way that 2% of us are psychopaths, any more or less would make society less fit to reproduce in.
First, societies are not less or more fit to reproduce in. This is an incorrect usage of the term "fit".
Second, wouldn't you think societies with less psychopaths would be preferable?
A basketball team with all Michael Jordans would fail miserably against a team of players with diverse skills that know how to work together.
Career specialization (or whatever you're referring to) is a cultural phenomenon that has little to do with evolution.
there is no set of traits that always wins, only more and less successful societies, and the people they generate.
there is no set of traits that always wins, only more and less successful individuals, and the offspring they generate.
[–]doesnotgetthepoint 4 points5 points6 points 6 months ago
If you think evolution has a direct purpose then I think you misunderstand evolution.
[–]NoVa1967 4 points5 points6 points 6 months ago
Upvote for username.
[–]kadmylos 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Funnily, religious people believe in none of those things.
[–]arclightz 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
There has been a rather interesting study with rats/mice investigating the impact of overpopulation related to the rats sexual orientation, i could not find a link atm but i do remember reading about it a while back.
A certan ammount of them were enclosed with a specified ammount of food and water, the colony then thrived and multiplied untill it started reaching greater numbers then the food supply could cover, and it was noted that large amounts of male rats ignored the females completely favoring other males.
Now i dont remember the details of the study to be much more specific, and i doubt it can be called evolution, but a study on the subject has been done.
Population density and social pathology.
[–]whiteknight521 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Homosexuality doesn't preclude reproduction; that is an issue with the theory proposed here. Homosexual members of a species are still fertile. Female homosexual animals will likely still mate with aggressive heterosexual males, so female homosexuality is hard to explain with the population control theory.
[–]Natchil 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
my englisch is not good enought to explain this...but that is not posible....
[–]userdame 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
This idea was presented by Thomas Malthus as a population check in 1798 http://geography.about.com/od/populationgeography/a/malthus.htm
[–]abogdonov 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Good find. Upvote for you.
[–]alienganjajedi 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
It doesn't seem to work like this at all when you look at homosexuality in different species. It is nothing new or even exclusive to human beings. Homosexual behaviors are present in most species when observed for long enough. Also, in countries that are better off, we would see a lower rate of homosexuality than we do today. Nature can't simply say "we are overpopulated". In order for this to work, we would have to see direct causation of homosexuality from death due to starvation or malnutrition. And as someone else pointed out, it is much harder for the gene to be passed on when the tenants of homosexuality reduce reproductive rates dramatically.
[–]Tithonos 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
This makes zero sense. Even if it supported survival of the species, those with the gene wouldn't be passing it on. Only those without the gene would reproduce.
And, frankly, I think it's a little ignorant to imply that homosexuality is some sort of single mutation within the human genome. Someone's sexual preference is very complex, and there certainly aren't two options that can be flipped like a switch genetically. Whatever genetic component does exist is probably determined by thousands of genes which affect everything from hormone levels to social bonding instincts.
[–]AKASquared 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
No.
[–]NickSchade 3 points4 points5 points 6 months ago
What if whoever made this meme doesn't understand how evolution works whatsoever? All snark aside, I'm super embarrassed for us right now.
edit: what in the holy fuck how many people agree with this?
His understanding of evolution is bad, and he should feel bad.
[–]Jawthumb 3 points4 points5 points 6 months ago
That's not how evolution works.
[–]NATESOR 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
read the selfish gene. This is wrong.
[–]Kaylick 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
the sneaky fucker theory... did that catch you by surprise too?
[–]dhicks3 4 points5 points6 points 6 months ago*
But homosexuality can't be favored by evolution! Gays don't have any children!!!
False. If you agree with the above, you've never heard of group selection, so let me explain. By virtue of being your parents' child, you automatically share minimum 50% of your genes with each of them. Likewise, you share an average of 50% of your genes with your siblings because you have the same parents. This works out to 25% for half-siblings, niece/nephews, aunts/uncles, and grandparents, and so on. Note that these are degrees of increasing relatedness over background levels of genetic similarity in the population.
Next: there is certainly no gay gene. This is simply because, if there were one, it'd have been easily found by now from pedigrees and genome sequencing. Homosexuality is a multifactorial trait, meaning that it is influenced a little bit by many different genes you might inherit at points throughout the genome. You are born with some tendency towards homosexuality, and the interaction of your genes and environment acts to determine whether you tip the scale or not. It helps to think of sexuality as a continuum, with "totally straight" at one end and "totally gay" at the other. The more "gay" alleles you inherit, the more likely you are to be gay. Same thing if we change the continuum to say "height" and the alleles to whether or not you are "tall."
Now, bringing the two lines of evidence together: your relatives share many of your genes, by definition. If a family that can create an individual with enough "gay" alleles to actually be gay, it is likely that the other members of the family have quite a few of the "gay" genes the gay family member has, just a few less of them. Thus, it is possible, if the gay individual provides a net benefit to the family's survival, that he or she could increase everyone's chances of survival and reproduction. Because the family members share the genes, this is very similar to the gay individual reproducing themselves, and can lead to in increase in the gay population.
This only leaves the question of asking how the gay individual will increase the others' survival, and this is debatable, though there are many hypotheses. It is not out of the realm of remotely supposable possibility (of course given appropriate statistical justification, and not a moment before) that simply having an extra pair of hands around to help divide work and watch the children of others while they hunt/forage/build/whatever helps may be sufficient.
False.
Correct.
If you agree with the above, you've never heard of group selection, so let me explain.
Incorrect. You are thinking of kin selection which is distinct from group selection. (which I now notice is what you link to)
By virtue of being your parents' child, you automatically share minimum 50% of your genes with each of them.
Incorrect. You will share have an average of 50% of your genes with each of them.
It is very likely that simply having an extra pair of hands around to help divide work and watch the children of others while they hunt/forage/build/whatever helps may be sufficient.
Incorrect. There is no reason to think this is very likely. Don't make unfounded claims for which you have no evidence. Do you make the same claims for infertility as you do for homosexuality?
[–]HouseRuleNumber4 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
You will share have an average of 50% of your genes with each of them.
Is this because of homologous recombination and the like?
[–]scienceagain 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago*
I was mainly referring to nonhomologous recombination and other changes that can lead to unequal numbers of genes in maternal and paternal gametes.
Edit: completely misread question.
[–]dhicks3 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
You are thinking of kin selection which is distinct from group selection.
I guess I was. For me, they're very closely related phenomena I must not have realized had distinct names. Both give insight onto the example I posed.
I'm going to directly challenge this claim. Other than chromosomal abnormalities like nondisjunction, in what case do you share less than 50% of your mother or father's genes? You always get one of your two copies of each chromosome from each parent. You can share significantly more than 50% (and all of us do) because most of our parents carry the same genetic sequence at most loci. You are making this sound analogous to the case for siblings, where you average 50%. This is because of independent assortment shuffling the individual copies each parent gives to you. But, no matter way your father's chromosomes assort, you will (other than in nondisjunction) always receive half and only half of his genes.
Okay, I could tell what you meant since you linked to the correct wiki page, and went on to describe kin selection.
But, I see them as very different phenomena. There is little, if any, evidence that group selection occurs in nature. Whereas kin selection is well-documented and rather intuitive. My main problem with group selection is that lay people often take this to mean that evolutionary changes which are good for the species overall are selected for, which is a terrible misconception.
I'm going to directly challenge this claim.
Okay, so there are two different things going on in your challenge. I'll address them separately.
1.)
You can share significantly more than 50% (and all of us do) because most of our parents carry the same genetic sequence at most loci.
Yes, if we are defining "share" to mean this, then I agree. From the context it seemed like you meant "share" to mean genes actually transferred from each parent.
But if you mean "share" like this than we would share more than 50% of our genes with unrelated individuals (or primates, etc.).
2.)
Other than chromosomal abnormalities like nondisjunction, in what case do you share less than 50% of your mother or father's genes? You always get one of your two copies of each chromosome from each parent.
I was referring to several phenomena.
Why would you ignore abnormalities like nondisjunction? And by your logic, shouldn't we share exactly 50% of your genes (assuming each parent contributed one of two chromosomes), rather than just at "minimum".
But paternal and maternal chromosomes do not always carry equal numbers of genes (see deletions, nonhomologous recombination, transposons). How should we consider epigenetic changes like paternal/maternal imprinting? And considering the Y chromosome is much smaller than the X chromosome (i.e., has fewer genes), sons would share more genes with their mothers than with their fathers.
Therefore, I think it would be more accurate to say the average value for the number of genes you share with a random parent is 50%.
I am, in fact, using "share" to simply mean "have a nucleotide sequence in common." I wouldn't consider epigenetics at all in this case, especially because some epigenetic marking is going to continually occur from zygote stage onward. So, if it were possible to have two parents who differed at every base pair, the minimum you can inherit after normal meiosis is 50%, because you get it directly from them. In general, I have neglected point and chromosomal mutations because one or both of the following two cases will be true: there is a complete or partial trisomy/monosomy, or there are scattered minor mutations. We don't normally think of the first case as it relates to homosexuality, as most of these individuals die in utero or have severe defects. In the second, universal case, very little genetic change typically occurs on a generation-to-generation basis, and so the genotype with respect to homosexuality is unlikely to have been altered, given the tiny fraction of the genome available to be hit. So, I say the minimum instead of the average is 50%: the only case in which we're even going to get to a tenth, or a hundredth of a percent deviation, doesn't really come into play. The deviation that does come in to play would not seem capable of significantly altering that fraction while maintaining viability. I don't think of it as useful to say a number varying from a mimimum of 49.99 to 50.01 to a maximum of 1, as having an average of 50%. It's also not a super-useful distinction to make: If all of anything under consideration comes from two sources only, the average contribution has to be 50%.
That said, you are completely right about the Y chromosome being smaller. That is really should have been the first thing I thought of.
I am, in fact, using "share" to simply mean "have a nucleotide sequence in common."
I think this is a problematic definition. For many genes the nucleotide sequence is largely conserved between even humans and mice. Also, it would be impossible for two parents to differ at every base pair, because at least one of these individuals would be far from human.
This is not the metric that the coefficient of relatedness (the relevant concept here) approximates.
But regardless, if this is how you are defining "share" then I already agreed that the average would not be 50%. And in fact the minimum would be much more than 50%.
We don't normally think of the first case as it relates to homosexuality, as most of these individuals die in utero or have severe defects.
I thought we were having a more general discussion, but if you want we can ignore trisomy/monosomy/robertsonian translocation.
In the second, universal case, very little genetic change typically occurs on a generation-to-generation basis
Agreed, I was just mentioning it for completeness.
It's also not a super-useful distinction to make: If all of anything under consideration comes from two sources only, the average contribution has to be 50%.
I think it is very useful, especially when using the same concept to calculate the coefficient of relatedness between all relationships, which is important information when predicting behavior due to kin selection. Your definition would not be especially useful since all humans share so much of their genome.
[–]Parrot132 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Sorry, can't upvote it. It shows too much ignorance about how evolution works. Evolution is never "for" or "against" anything.
[–]Axin13[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Because conspiracy Keanu
[–]Shr00mpr1nt -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 months ago*
It's the most awful fucking meme ever, please stop posting it.
[–]SoetSout 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Evolution is adaption, and therefore can adapt for the beter of the species. But its slow and random, hence defects etc...
its never really against anything, its just the process in which Creatures alters themselves little by little to adapt to environments, or improve on their current adaptations..
[–]danoprey 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
It doesn't act for "the better of the species".
[–]not_worth_your_time -2 points-1 points0 points 6 months ago
Sorry, can't let this post go without down voting it. Evolution is a process which produces results. This process can be described as "for" or "against" something based on the results that it produces. Its not the best way of describing it but its still a description.
[–]brainburger 4 points5 points6 points 6 months ago*
It's a shit description. There is no purpose or intention to anything that natural selection does. Its all just emergent effect.
However, this concept of purpose is really embedded in our ideas about Natural Selection. Even experts can be heard saying that the purpose of some feature of an organism is to enable it to do something, when really the effect of a tortoise shell is to reduce fatalities from predation, and so on.
[–]Thormic 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Communities that have homosexual members have a higher fertility raterate than communities without. I'm talking about in animals her, humans don't count.
This doesn't really mean anything though. Don't mistake correlation for causation. Higher numbers of homosexuals could be caused by higher fertility rates (as evidenced by male siblings with multiple older brothers being more likely to be gay).
[–]danc4498 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
SPIDERS!!!!
[–]williethakid 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Are you in the Air Force, and did we have this conversation earlier today?
[–]rivsay0810 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
But same sex couples can adopt! You can't explain that!
[–]ArsenalOwl 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
In order to pass on your evolutionary traits you must reproduce.
[–]Beard_of_life 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Homosexuality is ancient and appears to have no relation to population density. Although this is a reasonable hypothesis, I don't think evidence favours it.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
That doesn't really work because it would imply natural selection between many overpopulated mankinds.
[–]AutumnEmber 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
I still plan on having a kid. Artificial insemination.
An evolution?
[–]AvatarofSleep 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Someone once pointed out to me that homosexuality is a species preserving mechanism. In the event that a disaster or accident kills parents, homosexual couples can take the children and provide for them without a bias toward children of their own. I don't know the validity of this, but it seems reasonable
[–]goblue21 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
And the societies that don't allow them to have children will be the evolutionary successful ones?
[–]Shintasama 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Morbo thinks not
Evolutionarily if you procreate and your children die before procreating they don't count. Overpopulation decreases behavioral incentive to procreate given that you can't reasonably take care of your children. This may decrease females willing to cooperate in M-F pairing in the short term, which could in turn lead to increase M-M behavior, but that doesn't mean people are "evolving" to be more gay. In some other animals this leads to lack of copulation, abandonment, or infanticide. There is no "gay" gene.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Some people may be taking this meme a little to seriously.
[–]droslava 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I've been thinking of these a long time ago. Evolution is not only physical, I think this is a psychological evolution, maybe. I really don't have the knowledge to prove this, but for me it makes a lot of sense.
[–]biteater 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
completely false, but funny nonetheless. This is r/atheism though, not r/funny
[–]AnimaSeverem 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I'm actually wondering if it's more of an environmentally-induced mutation or alteration of body chemistry.
[–]sesto 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I have had this high thought as well...
[–]killermarsupial 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Interesting, related summary of a peer-reviewed article.
TL;DR: Female fertility rates may be linked male homosexuality occurence.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617204459.htm
[–]SHINeeBitches 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
There was an article about how children were more likely to be gay if they were born after their brothers and sisters. This is believed to stop competition for the older siblings.
[–]mufflepig135246 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
i think that this could be correct!
[–]fritscje 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
You obviously have no idea how evolution works.
[–]Dudesan -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
[–]AKASquared 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
So, tying this back to OP, what is that benefit? Just not reproducing and creating overpopulation? But in order to to be selected for, your genes have to (inclusively) increase proportionally within the gene pool. Which means making more babies, not less.
Maybe having a few non-reproductive members around is more inclusively fit. Maybe it's a side-effect of something else, and that other thing is more inclusively fit. Maybe it was never a thing at all until human culture began attaching labels and identities to what would otherwise just be stuff that some folks do, and which would not be exclusive of doing other stuff like getting women pregnant.
Even if merely not reproducing could be adaptive, male homosexuality wouldn't help one bit. Do you see why?
[–]Dudesan 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago*
I'm certainly not convinced that this explanation, alone, is enough to call homosexuality adaptive. I don't personally think it's an adaptation "against overpopulation", but perhaps it is associated with other adaptive traits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHDCAllQgS0
our genes have to (inclusively) increase proportionally within the gene pool. Which means making more babies, not less.
Not necessarily. If you prevent everyone who isn't in your family from reproducing, there's more resources for you, and your genes also increase in proportion within the gene pool.
No, I have no idea how being gay would accomplish that, either. I suppose if a male spends his time seducing/distracting other males for long enough to allow his brother unrestricted access to three females, his fitness just increased under Hamilton's law.
Fair point.
[–]Tachyx 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
What if being a cold blooded mass murderer is a tactic against overpopulation?
No, after the rest of the world kills you they have a baby-boom.
lol hopefully you are a troll.
Genetics does not explain murder, its upbringing and lifestyle, friends etc.. genetics at best can just make you more likely... but you cant say for 100% fact someone will be a murderer when they grow up. Evolution cant make murderers, I am a clinicly proven psycopath. and havent killed one person yet. i never took a knife and run down the str..... lemme rephrase that... i never took a knife with the intention of killing a human.
[–]antisyzygy 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Psychopathy and sociopathy have been shown to be survival strategies linked to self survival at the expense of the community. Its a good tactic only when you can hide it from others since there is retribution for bad behavior in human society. Neither of these traits mean you will be a murderer, its more a frame of mind of selfishness and lack of empathy.
An example that is sort of similar, if the community predominantly doesn't have many cheaters, its advantageous to be a cheater. You only must strive to not get caught.
[–]Tachyx -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
It was quite an obvious reference to Hitler.
[–]TheJackalMan 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Well homosexuality, has been around for thousands of years, so it either not doing its job or doing it so gradually that we're not noticing.
[–]fezzuk 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
we are just to good at fucking
[–]shamrock8421 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Read The Forever War by Joe Haldeman, very related
[–]bflove 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
The way you people are discussing homosexuality in terms of evolution is biased and subjective. I assume most here discussing this are hetero males. You need a bit more objectivity.
First of all, gay people are not infertile. Their testes and ovaries function. If push comes to shove a gay person could carry on the survival of the human race, and many many gays do in fact breed ( except of course for the ones who are infertile).
Second of all, the discussion cant be about "homosexuality" alone. It needs to be about "sexuality." Asking why humans experince sexuality from an evolutionary perspective would yield more insight. And why do we love? Why do we form bonds? By isolating homosexuality you guys are missing the point...
And btw hetero sex does not equate procreation. Penis in vagina doesnt equate procreation for that matter. How many times do you have hetero sex with the intent of reproduction? Like less than 1 percent of the time id guess for the average human. Why bother with oral sex? Nipple play? Kissing? Two chicks sharing a dildo and performing for a guy? Those are all infertile sex acts yet are highly desirable experiences that make life good.
Therefore the objective reality is semen to egg equates procreation. This could come to pass in any number of fun or mundane ways (use your imagination). This is one of the more glaring subjective short comings of the hetero normative mind's thinking.
Finally, the whole spectrum of sexuality has existed since humans realized that our penises and vaginas are not exclusively for reproduction. They are also for piss and play! Love and bonding!
So homosexuality is not a responce to overpopulation, rather its exclusive practice by a segment of the populace has the potential to curb overpopulation, just as vaginal intercourse has the potential for reproduction and overpopulation.
The way you people are discussing homosexuality in terms of evolution is biased and subjective.
No, the way people are discussing homosexuality in terms of evolution is uninformed and stupid. You may be offended as a gay person (assuming you are), but I am much more offended as a scientist.
I hope your not implying that discussing homosexuality in terms of evolution is inherently subjective. As far as I can tell it is the least subjective way of discussing it.
Second of all, the discussion cant be about "homosexuality" alone.
I think you're missing the point. If we can all agree that homosexuality makes an individual less likely to reproduce, we can begin to have a discussion on the evolution of homosexual behavior. All the other sex acts people do are irrelevant to the discussion as long as they are still having sex.
This is one of the more glaring subjective short comings of the hetero normative mind's thinking.
I don't know what you're talking about. I would think that an evolutionary discussion would, if anything, decrease heteronormative thinking.
our penises and vaginas are not exclusively for reproduction. They are also for piss and play! Love and bonding!
It doesn't matter that they are not exclusively for reproduction. And you must realize that even "play" and "love" have evolutionary explanations.
So homosexuality is not a responce to overpopulation
Clearly, but not for any reason that you provided.
[–]bflove -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
wow a contrary and smug "scientist," thanks for none of your insight.
Your thoughts are fogged by your culture...sexuality in terms of evolution is the knowledge to seek, NOT homosexuality. Sorry if that wasn't clear to you.
[–]scienceagain 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
contrary
I'm sorry for disagreeing with you?
smug
I didn't think my smugness would come across so well in text form. I am pleased.
Your thoughts are fogged by your culture
As an atheist and strong proponent of equal rights for gays I'm not sure why you think that would be true.
sexuality in terms of evolution is the knowledge to seek, NOT homosexuality. Sorry if that wasn't clear to you.
I appreciate the distinction you're trying to make, but I have to disagree. We began by studied sexual reproduction in general, but now one of the few unexplained phenomena is homosexuality. Heterosexuality is much easier to explain evolutionarily than homosexuality.
Don't pretend like homosexuality is not qualitatively different from heterosexuality and most of its related behavior. This does a disservice to those of us doing research to understand these phenomena, which will ultimately validate the LGBT movement (although it is likely to be a nonissue by the time we have any of this figured out anyway).
You say so much for someone with so little to say or contribute. Your brand of trolling reminds me of typical fundamentalists, only yours is under the guise of atheism and "science."
Homo and hetero are simply sexuality...seed to egg is procreation. As a "scientist" that should seem obviousto you. I suppose your urge to be contrary and smug (smug does not mean correct btw) is blinding you of your error. And by you pretending that homo and hetero are different in terms of evolution shows your subjective mind - your hetero normative foggy mind - and does the greatest disservice to humanity and true understanding.
I suppose when your have more experience and maturity this will all sink in...
And by you pretending that homo and hetero are different in terms of evolution shows your subjective mind
So you are claiming that heterosexuals and homosexuals have the same fitness? This is ridiculous. You shouldn't ignore facts just because they don't fit into your narrative.
what facts am i ignoring? many homosexual people are fertile and do willfully procreate. And Some people choose for whatever reason to not reproduce, gay or straight! So again, the real question to examine is the whole of sexuality (and love/bonding) in terms of evolution. Otherwise we need to rephrase the question as "why do some people choose not to procreate?"
For objectivity we must seperate sexuality from reproduction to yield any insight. Try using a venn diagram...that might help your understanding.
Your false hetero normative paradigm has collapsed, which is good...for science. You are welcome.
what facts am i ignoring? many homosexual people are fertile and do willfully procreate. And Some people choose for whatever reason to not reproduce, gay or straight
The fact that homosexuals are less fit. On average homosexuals will have less children than heterosexuals (and they have a decreased inclusive fitness as well).
many homosexual people are fertile and do willfully procreate. And Some people choose for whatever reason to not reproduce, gay or straight
That is true, but if you look at the data, homosexuals are still drastically less fit (even though some of them have children). Just like infertile people (even though some of them have children), or people who just don't want to have children (even though some of them have children).
Otherwise we need to rephrase the question as "why do some people choose not to procreate?"
That is another interesting question. But this question is much easier to answer. If it weren't, I'm sure it would get just as much interest from evolutionary biologists as homosexuality does.
Your false hetero normative paradigm has collapsed, which is good...for science.
I'm beginning to think you don't know what "heteronormative" means. Just because one behavior is more fit than another doesn't mean it "better" in any way (except for that it is more fit).
Homosexuality and heterosexuality are absolutely different in terms of evolution, and to deny this is almost as bad as denying evolution itself.
Sigh...go ahead and keep believing in your false paradigm...you'll never find the answer...Your inability to admit error will prevent you from achieving your goal of being an actual scientist....you'll remain another fragile ego pseudo academic committed to being "right" rather than the truth. You have become a "bible thumping" evolutionist; you are behaving just like the religious fundy.
I'll say one last time: sexuality and reproduction are not the same and by treating them so you'll never advance the study of evolution. I look forward to your closing. And btw its been kinda fun...thanks! :)
tl;dr If this is going to be our last exchange, then you asked for it. Here is my dissertation so I can be a real scientist instead of a fragile pseudo-academic.
You have yet to refute a single thing I've said. In fact I don't really understand what you disagree with.
You have become a "bible thumping" evolutionist; you are behaving just like the religious fundy.
I have evidence to support my claims. Statements like this make me wonder if people understand why religious fundamentalists are so bad. It's not simply because they hold up signs that say "God hates fags", it's because they are wrong (of course it's more easy to ignore/forgive the quiet bigots). If they had actual proof that a.) god exists, b.) he hates gay people, then this kind of thing would be okay (assuming using anti-gay slurs would then be okay if god did in fact hate them).
sexuality and reproduction are not the same and by treating them so you'll never advance the study of evolution.
I have never said they were "the same". You seem to think they are completely unrelated, which is just silly. Human sexuality is a byproduct of our evolutionary drive to reproduce. Also, it is okay to study what part of human sexuality without studying the whole. Of the mainstream displays of sexuality, homosexuality is the most interesting to most evolutionary biologists because its prevalence has the least intuitive explanation.
I'll give the best analogy I can think of off the top of my head. Suppose people in the United Kingdom discovered that black people were at greater risk of Vitamin D deficiency due to the increased levels of melanin in their skin. It would not be racist for scientists to ask, "how did this trait come about?". Asking this question does not mean that scientists think that white people are in any way better than black people, except that they are at decreased risk for Vitamin D deficiency in Scotland.
Of course eventually they would realize that this trait actually leads to increased fitness in environments with greater sun exposure due to protection from skin cancer (and hypervitaminosis D).
It seems as though in that situation your complaint would be:
the real question to examine is the whole of sexuality (and love/bonding)
"the real question is to examine the whole of skin color"
or
For objectivity we must seperate sexuality from reproduction
"for objectivity we must separate skin color from sun exposure-related survival".
I hope this illustrates why I think it's okay to ask the question "what is the evolutionary explanation of the prevalence of the homosexual phenotype?" And in answer to an anticipated objection, It makes no difference whether the phenotype is behavioral or physiological.
Please read my comments with an open mind. As much as I care about equal rights for LGBT people, I don't think it is appropriate for lay people to pressure scientists to avoid valid lines of investigation just because of the political climate. This happens too often from the right, and I'd prefer not to see it start coming from the left.
The reductionist approach to science has been the most productive methodology to date; and studying homosexuality would likely lead to an overall better understanding of sexuality in general, which seems like something you would appreciate, just as studying heterosexuality has in the past.
lol i just read your other responses...you have quite the hobby mr. "scientist."
more of a curse than a hobby
[–]ieatglue44 -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
I've heard research (don't have it on hand) that women with gay brothers have higher rates of fertility.
It definitely has something to do with reproduction.
This could easily be explained by a confounder. There is evidence that male siblings with multiple older brothers are more likely to be gay. Therefore, a high-fertility-rate mother would be more likely to (a.) have more gay sons and (b.) have high-fertility-rate daughters.
I love finding other scientists outside of r/askscience. You think as cynically as I do. Sounds like you've been looking over Potential Pitfall sections of grants...
Please don't mention grants. I'm working on an NIH grant (F31) for the April 8 deadline right now (well, clearly not right now).
[–]HouseRuleNumber4 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Good luck!!! Have an upvote to help?
[–]ieatglue44 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
I think the fertility had something to do with a particular hormone, but then I'm just saying this from memory.
[–]scissorhand26 -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
Had to read a study for one of my psych courses last year. Learned that there is good evidence that the more boys a woman gives birth to the more like each successive one is to be gay. To me this seems like a built in population-control. Especially considering how much reproductive damage boys can cause :P
[–]an_usual_man -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
Excellent proposal
[–]Jamarac -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
What does this have to do with atheism?
[–]mick4state -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
This refuses to leave my head...
[–]elvispt -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
can't help but remember The Forever War.
[–]Neo-Pagan -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
Glad to see im not the only one whos thougt of this.
[–]aazav -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
Um, it partially is. The organism is the group and it is a self limiting adaptation to greater population density.
Population Biology.
[–]lord_skittles -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
'Is an evolution against?' That just sounds weird.
More like: there are several scientific theories as to account for homosexuality. Population control. The 'family protection' of homosexuality is still passed by siblings, etc.
[–]jhm762 -2 points-1 points0 points 6 months ago
I had the same exact thought yesterday.
[–]seks03 -2 points-1 points0 points 6 months ago
I could believe it....
[–]cristinasupes -2 points-1 points0 points 6 months ago
I have been saying this for literally decades.
[–]singul4r1ty -2 points-1 points0 points 6 months ago
I think homosexuality is more common nowadays because gay couples can still have babies, with surrogate mothers etc. It's natural selection, and gays are now eligible to be selected, as their environment allows them to reproduce. Using evolution to explain why homosexuality is natural, 2 points to humanism!
I hope this is a joke. Do you really think this method of reproduction is "fitter" than the heterosexual way?
[–]singul4r1ty 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
I'm not saying it's fitter, I'm saying that conditions ate such that homosexual reproduction is possible in a roundabout way, unlike in the past when it was not. Homosexuals are now members of the 'fit', so they can survive.
It's not divided into "fit" and "not fit". There's just degrees of fitness. Even with surrogacy, they are still drastically less fit (assuming they enter into a monogamous relationship with someone of the same sex) for multiple reasons: surrogacy is very expensive, surrogacy only uses the gamete from one of the partners, surrogacy does not happen on accident.
Also homosexuals could always reproduce. Surrogacy would have a negligible impact on the number of homosexuals right now, considering how relatively few babies are born through surrogacy (and it was even less before).
[–]singul4r1ty 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Ok, I get what you mean. I was trying to say that homosexual reproduction is now more possible and acceptable to others than before, so they are fitter in that sense.
[–]ChildOf7Sins -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 months ago
OMG I have been saying this for years! Who are you and my are you in my head?
[–]copperbricks -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 months ago
I always thought that that might be it, glad to see someone else hwo thought about it that way
[–]TrevorBradley -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 months ago
If homosexuality were a detriment to the evolution of the species, it would have been gone by now. It's either irrelevant or more likely beneficial to the survival of the species. (Or more specifically, the "selfish" genes of the homosexual individual - it likely has something to do with resource gathering for pregnant kin who share the same genes.)
If homosexuality were a detriment to the evolution of the species, it would have been gone by now.
Oh good, the same thing must be true for Down syndrome, Huntington's disease, cystic fibrosis, Duchenne muscular dystrophy, multiple sclerosis, and all forms of cancer.
or more likely beneficial to the survival of the species. (Or more specifically, the "selfish" genes of the homosexual individual - it likely has something to do with resource gathering for pregnant kin who share the same genes.)
Wow, way to make a claim without any scientific evidence, on an atheist forum no less.
[–]TrevorBradley 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
Position reassessed.
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
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