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PHILOSORAPTOR 2012! (imgur.com)
submitted 5 months ago by 94svtcobra
[–][deleted] 216 points217 points218 points 5 months ago
Politicians are elected for their opinions. People usually vote for them because they have similar opinions to the politician.
[–]Kasuli 73 points74 points75 points 5 months ago
Yep. Otherwise it should just be a straight-up national vote on everything.
[–][deleted] 113 points114 points115 points 5 months ago
And after spending my share of time on reddit, I've decided that would be a bad thing.
[–]anonymous123421 18 points19 points20 points 5 months ago
Referendums can have devastating effects. See: Prop 8
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Prop 8 was unconstitutional in any case.
[–]lajksdgbiu 29 points30 points31 points 5 months ago
Thing is, if you've got a direct democracy the people would have the ability to amend the constitution...
Say what you will about politicians/elected officials, but without them our policies would be wanton and totally shaped by the media. Limbaugh et al. would be the de facto leaders of conservatives, Huffington/Maddow et al. would shape liberal opinion, and so on. I seriously doubt direct democracy would leave us a freer people.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago
It seems like policy is currently shaped through the media. Rupert Murdoch has more political power than Obama and R Money combined.
[–]lajksdgbiu 5 points6 points7 points 5 months ago
Yes, but through politicians our policies are somewhat insulated from the vagaries of public opinion. Public opinion bounces around like a pinball, but for the US, a global superpower, to function optimally you need some sort of stability. Because politicians are in a position where they have a unique amount of information and power, they often make decisions that are contrary to public opinion just because they are able to make more informed decisions about what is best for the country (See Obama's shift to supporting warrentless wiretaps, staying 3 more years in Iraq, etc.). If the public had its way, the opposite would have happened.
Case in point: Look at the Iraq debacle. A majority supported invasion, but most people supported withdrawal not too long afterwards. If we would have withdrawn, it might have served our short-term interests, but we would have been greatly harmed long-term... not to mention the fact that it would have defeated the purpose of the invasion in the first place. That kind of confusion and counter-productivity would harm us at every turn.
In any event, you would still have to have some sort of elected executive. How else would top-secret decisions (regarding the osama operation ,etc) be be made? You can't just put that info on CNN and ask for a yea or nay.
How would we have been harmed in the long term by not invading Iraq?
[–]jacobtaylor1987 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
No, he's saying if we "withdrew" it would have harmed you. And I assume this would refer to backlash from thr international community, especially other middle eastern nations.
[–]darkmuch 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
The statement was withdraw not invade. and also Bush had SO much popular support at the begging of his presidency so invasions of even MORE places could have occurred in a mass RETALIATE! frenzy after 9/11.
[–][deleted] 5 months ago
[deleted]
[–]aesu -2 points-1 points0 points 5 months ago
Lack of oil security. America would not have invaded if the war wasn't going to pay for itself many times over, in some way. The inability of the crowd to commit ruthless acts in the name of their survival would be the likely downfall of any single country that turned to direct democracy.
[–]MuffinMopper 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Not really. He has the power of public opinion, but he can't actually make or enforce laws, he can only sway people.
Right, just like how Prop 8 wouldn't have become law without the media blitz.
[–]chrisbooth12 -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
No it wasn't
According to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, Prop 8 was in violation of the civil rights of gay and lesbian Americans.
[–]chrisbooth12 -3 points-2 points-1 points 5 months ago
The constitution makes no mention of marriage, by definition Prop 8 cannot be unconstitutional. I am glad they threw it out but it was voted on and passed by a majority of the population
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
Then you had better go over to those 9th Circuit Court judges and tell them what's what!
[–]chrisbooth12 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Just because they ruled it that way does not mean it was. They used their heads and realized it was clearly discriminatory
[–]mrfloopa 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
You're like the people who say the constitution doesn't say "separation of church and state" verbatim. Marriage should be considered an individual liberty and it doesn't harm anyone, so banning any form of it is unconstitutional. You don't need exact words because some people can't interpret what's already there.
[–]anonsters 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago
Marriage should be considered an individual liberty
In fact marriage is, according to the Supreme Court (of the U.S.), a "fundamental freedom" (Loving v. Virginia) and a "fundamental right" (Zablocki v Redhail).
On the other hand:
so banning any form of it is unconstitutional
Polygamy is illegal in all 50 states, and Reynolds v. United States (from the 19th century) upheld a conviction under an anti-bigamy statute as constitutional. But then again, there's currently a case in federal district court challenging Utah's anti-bigamy statute, and the judge has ruled the family challenging the statute has standing to sue the state attorney general. So we'll see where that goes.
[–]AchillesGRK 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I feel the same way about smoking pot, yet I bet a policeman wouldn't agree. Liberty is a meaningless word.
[–]jacobtaylor1987 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Just because something isn't directly mentioned in the constitution, it does not mean that it cannot be ruled unconstitutional.
[–]Kilgannon_TheCrowing 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Why do you say that?
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 5 months ago*
Just stuff that I see. Stupid stuff that gets upvoted, racism, sexism, people getting demonized without the facts, sensationalism, general mob mentality. Don't get me wrong, I like reddit and it has good along with the bad but I would not want a government like it.
[–]aesu -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
Some examples?
I've only been here for a month or so, but haven't seen anything racist, sexist, or unfairly demonizing.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
It's usually in the comments section. I'm not gonna spend time digging up examples for you. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to.
Have you ever been to Facebook?
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
We already know it is a bad thing.
Source: History
[–]TodTheTyrant -5 points-4 points-3 points 5 months ago
so i guess we should just leave it up to /r/christianity to make all of our decisions for the country then
[–]mrfloopa 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago
.. What? Did you just want to throw in a blow at religion or a specific subreddit, or was there an actual reason?
That sounds cool to me!
[–]jacobtaylor1987 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Exactly. People think most western nations are "democracies", they are not, they are "representative republics". We elect other (supposedly) more learned people to make the decisions that we neither have the time nor experience to make.
[–]lajksdgbiu -2 points-1 points0 points 5 months ago
Of course, OP seems to suggest that we should still elect individuals, just without reference to their opinions. I think OP wants a national popularity contest...
N-D-T, N-D-T!
[–]clownparade 6 points7 points8 points 5 months ago
This becomes a problem when a candidate decides to change his mind on something after hes elected.
Or, even worse, does not share his full scope of ideas or plan during an election
[–]elj0h0 7 points8 points9 points 5 months ago
Or the much more likely scenario that he was full of shit during his campaign.
[–]Argothman 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Change his mind? They're just lying, they know exactly what they're going to do once in office.
Solution: Actually inform yourself on who you vote for.
[–]clownparade 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Thats not really a solution. Obama put together one hell of a campaign and made tons of promises. The fact that he doesnt keep some of them doesnt mean I voted stupid, it means he either lied, changed his mind or was bought off.
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 5 months ago
Or did the best he could in a heterogenous political environment.
Voters aren't asked to select someone that matches them 100%. They're merely asked to select the best available out of a small selection. Suffice to say that Obama simply was for many the best person available.
[–]pandamaja 6 points7 points8 points 5 months ago
I came here to say this, but, with this
[–]drinkme217 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I think height, attractiveness and hair have a lot to do with it.
[–]Vik1ng 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
The German Pirate Party would disagree with you there in some regards. They have something called LiquidFeedback where party members can bring up various issues and vote on them. The politicians don't have to stick to this (they are by law required to be independent), but I think most of them will to stick to those results, but we have to see this in the future, in the moment they are just in the Berlin Parliament right now.
[–]cannedmath 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Upvoted you, not the comic :P
[–]yesukai 57 points58 points59 points 5 months ago*
There are two schools of thought on that. One is that the elected are stewards, people who take care of things for us. You may not agree with them on everything, but you selected them because you believe they will do a good job regardless. The other school of thought is that the only reason we have representatives is because it would be hard to count a few million votes for every issue, and that they shouldn't have opinions other then their electorate. Both are perfectly good ways of looking at it, and have coexisted in our system since the start.
Either way, no matter who it is, their electorate isn't unanimous on any issue, so it's kind of stupid to think there is one view the politician could have that satisfies this. I know the Reddit echo chamber gives a false perception of consensus on some things, but the real world doesn't look a thing like Reddit.
[–]moviemaniac226 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Exactly, and not only that, but it would be assuming that the opinion of "everyone" - or at least the majority - is a good one. There was a time when civil rights was not supported by the majority. Or what about things people don't understand? Walk up to a person on the street and ask them what our policy on the derivatives market should be. Representatives need to be trusted "experts" on issues, even if they're not always correct.
[–]yesukai 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Yeah, except to an "expert" on banking you would probably have had to be a banker. Then we get the revolving door! Corruption!
So, yeah, no easy solutions to anything.
[–]excommunicated 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Which is why they should represent the good of the people... and again their personal opinions shouldn't matter.
[–]yesukai 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago
What is the "good of the people" is very largely a matter of opinion.
[–]yesukai 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Some of them did. Hamilton comes to mind most of all when I think "who hated the Mob?"
There is some value to the idea of "if you can't manage your own life enough to own your own property, how the hell are you going to make good decisions about other people's lives?" The "white" part though is one of those nasty artifacts of compromising to terrible forces.
[–]artifex0 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
It seems to me a representative ought to promote whatever their constituents value, regardless of personal feelings, but they should do so in a way that's more intelligent than what their constituents would vote for in a direct democracy.
That really doesn't... counter anything I said? ... so, pick a position you value, and I'll tell you how someone else doesn't see it that way. We can play the fun game of "all your constituents don't value the same things".
[–]elj0h0 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Actually the real world is more like reddit than it appears
[–]m4rauder 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
Exactly what someone who spends too much time on reddit would say.
[–]elj0h0 -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
Something a redditor who works in customer service would say
[–][deleted] -7 points-6 points-5 points 5 months ago
Hopefully minus the r/politics and r/atheism parts
[–]iamdestroyerofworlds 5 points6 points7 points 5 months ago
So brave.
[–]MuffinMopper 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
Can you explain this meme?
[–]Noggin123450 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
I'm not sure if there was an individual post that the meme came from, but frequently on r/atheism when someone posts about "winning" against Christians, the top comment will be "So brave" or something like it.
[–]Korbie13 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
It's sarcasm.
No such luck. Although the atheists aren't as vocal.
[–]dem503 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
due to political parties there are 3 schools of thought (see my comment)
[–]hamsterdamarama 16 points17 points18 points 5 months ago
Yes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delegate_model_of_representation
&
No - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trustee_model_of_representation
[–]lessmiserables 12 points13 points14 points 5 months ago
This is a well known political science theory. There are three thoughts: the delegate, who simply votes the majority preference of their district; the trustee, who votes their opinions after having them validated by an election; and the politico, who votes how they think their constituents would if they had all of the information and expertise. Most representatives are a mix, and for a functioning democracy that's probably not a bad thing.
[–]McBurger 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
Philosoraptor 2012?! I thought it was Kony 2012! Shit, and I just threw out my Ron Paul 2012 gear for that guy!
WHO IS IT MAKE UP YOUR MIND TELL ME WHAT TO THINK REDDIT.
[–]MisterMcDuck 4 points5 points6 points 5 months ago
Bernay's Propaganda talked about this. He asserted that politicians are not chosen to represent, but rather to sway the electorate's opinions via the means of propaganda.
At least that's what I got from the book.
[–]shiningtesticles 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
That was an excellent book. He puts what I fundamentally disagree with in such a sensible way. Really good for testing the normal views of things.
[–]lajksdgbiu 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
So.. the liberal philosophies of Locke and Montesquieu were just used by our evil, manipulative founding fathers as a pretense to set up a government which appeared to allow for democratic self-representation but in reality was solely intend to create an apparatus to control the people?
Here's my default conspiracy theory response.
[–]Trick825 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
While you seem to be couching it in negative terms. Yes. The governments primary concern is maintaining its own power. That is why it has the power to do things like, you know, put down insurrections. Obviously some will have different motives and priorities, but the primary use of government is to control "unsavory" elements of society and keep peace and control.
The idea that that is its sole purpose, however, is absolute bullshit, but I don't think that is what MisterMcDuck was saying (or maybe it is, I haven't read the book)
[–]MisterMcDuck 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Correct, it was not.
[–]jmad202 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Not to stoke the flames (since this isn't r/politics) but my thought is they are there for a little bit of both:
1) They get elected because they share values/opinions with the people who voted for them.
2) They are there to voice what the electorate is saying (I think this is the one that has failed in our country, namely due to money in politics)
[–]elj0h0 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
In a perfect world politicians wouldn't just say anything to get elected.
[–]Pensivality 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Sounds a fair bit like ol Ron Paul.
[–]redthelastman 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
this is the dumbest thing philosoraptor ever.
[–]dem503 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
This is one of the key debates in all of politics, why is someone elected, and then how does he/she make the decisions once in power? (this applies to any politician, anywhere)
from the point of view of the politician
1) They elected me so what I think is right I shall do
2) I am their representative so I should do things based on their collective opinion
3) They didn't elect me, they voted for me because of my political party, I should do things in line with the party's policies
So with those three things constantly vying for attention, its easy to see why politicians find it hard to make a decision, and also why no decision has ever made everyone happy1.
1 is something that is rampant in american politics, the opponents choose any decision made by those in power and show it from the point of view of those most disadvantaged by it. Americans might think that is normal, it really isn't)
[–]dmetvt 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
There are two main theories of representative democracy, the representative theory and the delegate theory. If you hold that officials are put into office to carry out the views of their constituents then you basically have a more efficient way to carry out direct democracy. The United States was largely founded on the other point of view, the delegate theory. This idea holds that representatives are elected because they are the most qualified, intelligent people for the job. At that point they are supposed to act as stewards and make responsible decisions not subject to the whims of the populace.
In reality our system incorporates some of both theories. With the high availability of scientific polling, a politician can generally know what his constituents want and should certainly take that into account. On the other hand, the general populace is often stupid, misinformed and subject to fast changes in opinion. Since politicians often come from elite educated backgrounds and have vast resources available to them, they should be able to make better decisions than your average citizen. A great example of this is the TARP plan which is wildly unpopular and is also perhaps the greatest American legislative success of the past two decades. Of course, no matter how educated a politician is, they still have their own ideology and opinion and it would be unrealistic to expect them to ignore it. There's a lot more to representative democracy than just doing what your constituents want.
TL;DR No
[–]hansel4150 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
America run off of a Republic system, not Democratic.
[–]GobbledyCrook 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Two theories of representation.
Delegate: View that elected person should make decisions based on constituents' opinion.
Trustee: View that elected person is more enlightened and should make decisions on constituents' behalf, even if it counters their preference.
[–]thelaziest998 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
That my friend is the difference between delegate theory of representation vs. trustee theory of representation
[–]bashfulpanda 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
There are different "types" of politicians. A delegate is one who is elected and will go about his own ideas/agenda, while a trustee is one who will vote with the popular opinion of the people. Voters essentially choose which they want, as both have their upsides/downsides.
[–]jumphook 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I've ben working this over in my head for a while now. They should have their own opinions, but in theory they shouldn't want to win based on the want of power, right? Because a representative government is based on what the people want, they should want the candidate who best represents the people's opinions to win. Of course, people are inherently greedy for power and voters are inherently stupid when it comes to what would actually help the nation. I know this isn't r/politics, but this was something I've been pondering for a while.
Pandering to the majority is clinging on to power whilst standing up for what you believe even though it may not be popular gives you an accurate backing.
Ideally all politicians are brutally honest about their opinions and the way they will vote. Ideally politicians don't care about the number of people voting for them. That way the public will be the judge of what's going on in politics.
[–]The_Truth_is_a_Troll 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
And this is why democracy is stupid.
The ability to vote and the ability to pass laws is not supposed to be "the arbitrary power to vote rights away."
[–]YouListening 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Let's focus on the US for a moment, as I'm sure this would be the most evident example for my following point. The House of Representatives, which, as the name suggests, represents the people, as a full-on democracy would be impossible to maintain in such a large country, along with the Senate forms the federal level of the legislative branch, which creates and passes laws that are supposed to benefit the people. However, because the citizens re-elect career politicians, large industries can afford to put money in the politicians' pockets to boost support for laws that would benefit the industry, not necessarily the citizens which the legislative branch represents.
[–]nukacola 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
There's two ways of thinking about how politicians should represent their constituents opinions.
The first is thinking that a politician is elected in order to promote the opinions of his district. As such, the politician should do what he believes the members of his district would think is best.
The second is thinking that a politician is elected because his constituents have faith in his opinions, and thus he should do what he thinks is best, because the members of his district elected him to do so.
Most politicians choose some from column A, some from column B. After all, if you completely ignore your district you wont get elected, but if every politician supported everything their districts wanted every government would collect 0 taxes and pay out trillions in aid.
[–]Welche 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
There are multiple competing theories of democracy. One theory is that they are elected to represent the opinions of the people in their constituency and another is that they are elected to do what they think is best and yet another is that they are elected to do what their parties want them to do. Well, at least in Canada.
[–]null050 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
i'd vote for anyone if that was their view
[–]Inorashi 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Thats why you vote for the those who share your opinions
[–]james9075 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
if this were true then SOPA, ACTA, and PIPA would never be things
[–]TheAnalogRobot 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I hate when politicians talk about being leaders. You don't need to lead a goddamn thing, you need to vote how we told you to vote then shut up. We're the leaders of our communities. I don't need anyone leading me anywhere.
[–]anonymousssss 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Actually this is one of the most interesting debates at the core of a representative democracy. Is a politician elected simply to echo the people he represents, or is he elected to make the choices he thinks are best for the country regardless of his personal views. On the one hand you don't really want a politician who ignores his district completely, on the other you also don't want one who makes every choice based on the latest polls.
Personally I think that politicians are best when they consider everything, including how constituents feel, and then make the choice they think is best for the country. They then answer for their choices in the next election.
[–]Haruki-kun 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
In theory, this is because people elect politicians whose views they agree with, which means that they're electing someone who shares their opinion. In theory.
[–]OmarLittleLives 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Its the constant question whether we elect the people and then trust them to make the right decisions (Burkean representation) or elect the person who will represent the exact wills of the people.
[–]ToStateTheObvious 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
but they are people therefore they are part of everyone so no by this logic their opinions should count just as much but no more than other peoples opinions.
[–]Akiba89 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes.yes....
If only saying it multiple times made it happen
[–]The_Truth_is_a_Troll 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
The retards in r/politics believe upvotes make things true!
[–]Revolutionary2012 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
No, their opinions shouldn't be irrelevant, they should be as relevant as the next mans, as mine or yours. But the only way this would work in practice would be to live in a Libertarian Socialist society, where politics was completely localised, and we rid ourselves of a central government.
[–]putegg 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
yes
[–]clburton24 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
but then if they represented EVERYONE then they SHOULD include themselves.....
[–]stretchpun 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I don't believe a woman should have an abortion, does that help to clear it up?
[–]londincalling 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Ther are two types. Either you elect someone and trust their judgement regardless of how "you would do it" or who elect someone who you think best represents you.
[–]thebeesknees26 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Hellz yeahh
[–]AskingAlexandria 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I'm tempted to do a write-in vote for Philosoraptor when elections come around
[–]cantthinkofgoodname 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
The problem is there being two huge parties, who are in the same pockets, and people who vote for either party based on which one they're subscribed to. Individual opinions mean nothing in the scheme of things.
[–]Cristal1337 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Isn't a politician supposed to lead a country in the "correct" direction? Which means that he must be able to cast away his own belief (the belief for which he was elected) if it means that will provide a prosper future for the country.
[–]Trevmiester 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Politicians don't represent everybody, they represent the majority. Politicians have their own opinions and if their opinions are closest to those of the majority, then they win the election. It's impossible to please/represent everyone.
[–]IAmAnAnonymousCoward 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
And that's why you should support Direct Democracy where the opinions of politicians don't really matter.
Well they are part of the everyone; so no.
[–]lougrube 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
“Favoritism and influence are not ... avoidable in representative politics. It is in the nature of an elected representative to favor certain policies, and, by necessary corollary, to favor the voters and contributors who support those policies. It is well understood that a substantial and legitimate reason, if not the only reason, to cast a vote for, or to make a contribution to, one candidate over another is that the candidate will respond by producing those political outcomes the supporter favors. Democracy is premised on responsiveness.” McConnell v. Fed. Election Comm., 540 U.S. 93, 297, (opinion of KENNEDY, J.).
[–]Squidmonkej 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Not sure about how you do it in the states, but we've got parlamentarism in Norway. You vote for politicians who hold many of the same opinions as you. If you want to vote for a politician who holds all the same opinions as you, I think you'll have to become one yourself
[–]krucz36 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I got in a good old fashioned letter-writing exchange with Randy "Duke" Cunningham, my rep at the time, about him STFU about abortion and doing what I told him to do. That was fun.
[–]GrayStudios 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
...No. That's what the represent part means. Their opinions supposedly represent ours.
[–]aesu 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Direct democracy FTW!
Also, well thought out in-depth politiocal arguments that avoid catchy slogans and internet abbreviations FTW!
That would be the model of a soviet democracy. The representatives are supposed to act directly according to what they are elected for and can be replaced at practically any time if they don't do what they are supposed to do.
In a representative democracy however, which is the norm in many western countries, the representatives are only liable to themselves and only have to fear that they won't be elected again for the next term.
Please don't lynch me if I misworded something, not a native speaker.
But really, isn't this high school knowledge?
[–]manbro 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
that's a really interesting question. no, they shouldn't be
Simple solution. Make manifestos legally binding!
We're paying these people a lot of money to run our country. In no other scenario, business or private, would you do that without a contract.
Or, a greek style democracy, where everyone has a turn 'administrating', and all the big issues are voted on directly. But without any private money or campaigns involved in the promotion of any side of the argument. We employ a large group of relevant experts in the field of whatever is being voted on, to create a interactive document with all the key FACTS and data, and their expert, consensus opinions. Every member of public knows how to access this information, and can before, during, and after voting on the issue.
[–]charlieADAMS 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Well this meme is wrong, politicians get elected because people share the opinions of that politicians. Moreover, some people dont have thier own opinions but they like the opinions of the politician.
[–]bradygilg 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
There are a few opinions about what a representative should do. Some people think they should make their own choices. Some people think they should do what their constituents want. Some people think they should do what the founders would have wanted.
Didn't you take 8th grade civics?
[–]magic_mermaids 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Madison wanted politicians to be a guard against the majority to refine and enlarge public views. Maybe that's not what you want today but voting exactly how they are told was certainly not the intended method of the founding fathers...
[–]pseudostar04 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
To play the devils advocate here, are you saying a politician should do what other people tell them to do regardless of what they think is right or wrong?
[–]TheGreatNinjaYuffie 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I was homeschooled when I was younger. And I vividly remember this one Civics lesson. My dad and I were taking a walk out to get the mail and we were discussing politics. And he asked me the following:
"Say you are a politician and you deeply believe that abortion is a sin. (a hot button issue where I lived) You really believe no one should ever get an abortion. But you are elected to represent a state that OVERWHELMINGLY supports abortion. Like over 75% of your constituent believe women should have access to abortions. What do you do? Vote on your belief or vote on your constituents?"
Being like 10 I thought about it, and how important personal conviction is and said "I guess id vote against abortion". And then I kinda got told... About how you are elected to represent the people. How the politicians are elected to be the voice of the people. Ya know... the way it SHOULD work.
Anyway... Sorry to make /r/AdviceAnimals look like /r/politics... but it was always a lesson that stuck with me.
[–]Mars2502 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Technically, politicians are also people, and therefore part of "everyone," meaning that their opinions should count equally as much as any other individual.
[–]ilikepoops 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Meh, I doubt most politicians official opinions are the same as their private ones. They adjust it according to their positioning. So if their district is predominantly pro-life, they are pro-life. Most have no souls, no doubt.
[–]simonhalfdan 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
How true this is entirely depends on what model of democracy you subscribe to. Coming from the UK I see it in a First Past The Post (FPTP) context, it probably works in a way for other systems too where there is less of a constituency link (if any).
Some politicians see it as their job to represent their constituents, a delegate would be a good name.
Others consider themselves to have a mandate, so we elect them because they have a view. We continue to re-elect them based on how much we agree with this view.
In reality the actual political system is somewhere in between. In the UK it seems to work that we elect a politician based on their views and what they would do. Additionally they hold surgeries so that constituents can come and complain to them, or people write them letters. If enough people do this they often take notice.
[–]jrhop364 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Well, there are two types of representatives. There are ones who run on their morals and say "This is what I think is best" and then there are others that run on "I will do what the people want, No matter what I feel on the matter."
Both have their ups and downs, Iowa passing gay marriage even though the majority of the people didn't want it is a person running on their own morals. But at the same time, when it doesn't go in the way you want it, it's really frusterating. So like, if the majority of a state wanted to start eating babies, and the politcian was like "What? no. We're not eating babies." But then was like "This is what the people want..." then all the sudden you'd have Rhode Island having baby eating days.
Which is not ok.
[–]ORDEAL 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Hahaha... haha.. ha
[–]ImaBlackBelt 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Yes and I've been saying this for years.
[–]SirDubalot 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
We live in a republic for a reason. If everyone voted on everything, then the crazy masses would vote irrationally every single time a crisis came up. Thats why you vote the politician that best reflects your own views, and is suppose to vote level headed no matter what. They dont always do it, but its better than a democracy.
[–]Lilyo 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Its more something along the lines of people voting for politicians who have the same or similar views (or claim to at least) as them. Representative democracy is really the only possible form of democracy.
[–]WhatsAFratStar 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
There are two types of thinking politicians do: option A: the politician does exactly what his/her constituents want because that's what they want Option B: the politician does what he believes is right because they believe they were elected for their opinions.
both have drawbacks, with option A, voting for certain policy makes the politician enemies and can limit his effectiveness in terms of swaying other politicians to his/her side, while option B often leaves a sour taste in constituents mouths so to speak.
[–]Bengty 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Good thing we don't live in a democracy. Imagine the atrocity of our system if everyone were represented... the absolute gridlock would be impossible to navigate save a few key issues.
Not that it isn't complete shit already.
[–]fltdrv 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
In America, we have the best government money can buy.
[–]thisisnotmax 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
This isn't the problem, the reason nothing gets done in the United States. It's because some people don't believe what politicians say to be opinions. They believe them to be fact.
[–]Todomanna 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
They are included in everyone.
[–]trex88 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
turn america into a reaper. human reaper 2012
[–]Grimreaper023 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I am okay with this idea. Call my people.
[–]TheOnePickle -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
No... They share their views and we elect the ones we agree with/ How the hell did this get to the first page?
[–]ararphile -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
Yup, I find it ridiculous when the left bitches about how homosexuals are oppressed, can't come out because they might lose their friends: job, etc; and that a gay person would never get elected. But when a republican speaks for the people and is against gays, but then turns out to be gay himself, they find it hilarious.
[–]Elderh12 -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
I've always fucking thought this!
[–]GinnyPoP -2 points-1 points0 points 5 months ago
BOSS.
[–]ReigningCatsNotDogs -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
This statement means nothing. You cannot just use some irrelevant axiom to try and sound profound.
Shadows aren't even tricks, they are really there.
[–]ScubaPlays 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
This made me laugh.
[–]RedditEverywhere -3 points-2 points-1 points 5 months ago
Yes, it should be this way.
[–]yesukai 6 points7 points8 points 5 months ago
Not necessarily. That would be a "direct democracy", which we don't have. There are very good reasons for separating "the mob" from the power. There is a lot of reading to be done about the subject. It's a debate as old as the country, and one that doesn't have any one right answer.
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