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But then... (imgur.com)
submitted 5 months ago by SuperMarbro
[–]mtldude1967 123 points124 points125 points 5 months ago*
Don't worry...it'll all blow over in another 1500 years or so. Then they'll have to deal with the Pastafarians.
[–]Newtonyd 128 points129 points130 points 5 months ago
She's a saucerer, burn her!
[–][deleted] 27 points28 points29 points 5 months ago
Or perhaps stew her with tomatoes and a little basil as an offering to His Noodlieness. Delicious.
[–]Rudahn 25 points26 points27 points 5 months ago
R'amen!
[–]s1thl0rd 10 points11 points12 points 5 months ago
HERETIC! When you die, you will SEE the Lord in all his Soup but your noodles will not be allowed to enter his Can of Deliciousness. All praise to the Holy Soup Can. All Souptonians and Cannites unite! Let us rain death upon these infidels until all their noodly appendages are overcooked!
[–]Poohunter 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
"but your noodles will not be allowed to enter his Can of Deliciousness." So glad I read that twice
[–]ChiefGrizzly 22 points23 points24 points 5 months ago
I listened to an Islamic scholar whose name escpaes me right now that believed that Islam was going through the same renaissance of moderate thinking that created the more pacified Chrisitianity we have today as opposed to the batshit insane Chrisitianity that burned witches and went on crusades. He believed that Islamic extremism was a reactionary movement to a more moderate reading of the Quran, and that rather than being a warning of increased extremism to come, it was actually the death throws of a relatively young religion's more extreme views.
I wish I had the name of the scholar to hand, hopefully i'll be able to find his name so I can give a source to my bastardised summary of something I heard a couple of years ago.
[–]3DPD 8 points9 points10 points 5 months ago
throes. wouldn't have commented but you made me forget the right word and i had to google it
[–]BadEnding 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
I had to double check. Checks out. throe, n.
[–]Cforq 10 points11 points12 points 5 months ago
I've heard this pretty often and I think it is a load of crap. Islam stared as a religion was war. Muhammad was a leader of a force of thousands that spent eight years fighting with and eventually conquering Mecca. Islam already had enlightened areas - there were times they lead the world in science and learning. Also I hate the "we are just mimicking Christianity thing". They are a different religion, and religions don't follow the same pattern. Show me this happening in Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Mormonism, Taoism, or any other religion.
[–]IgnorantDesign 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
Uh, you do realize that one of the most important texts in Hinduism, the Bhagavad Gita, takes place entirely within the context of a war?
[–]Cforq 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
And can you point me to their equivalent of the crusades, the inquisition, and/or witch hunts?
[–]crazy_desi 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Atheist Indian here.. they had their share of witch hunts, but not crusades or inquisiitons
[–]ManishSinha 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Atheist Indian here, there are still witch hunts in area like Jharkhand and the witches are called Dions. By the way it has nothing to do with religion and purely a cultural issue stemming out of ignorance
[–]crazy_desi 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Thats what I was referring to.
[–]Casual_Lurker1 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago
Culture tends to permutate whether or not they have different religions. The difference between 1100's Christianity crusades and today's Islam Jihad is miniscule (for the glory of god/allah etc.) except that the latter's culture is rapidly accelerating toward a form of modernism that, while it won't be on par with the rest of the industrialized world for another 100 years, is actively occurring now. No, religions don't follow the same patterns, but societies do. As cultures become more connected and aware of an outside world, they begin the trade of ideas and culture and will change - it just becomes a question of whether they will change slowly or rapidly. While they will develop their own unique cultural aspects and mindsets, they'll still conform with what they view to be strong cultural icons.
[–]JasonMacker 5 points6 points7 points 5 months ago
I've heard this pretty often and I think it is a load of crap. Islam stared as a religion was war. Show me this happening in Judaism
I've heard this pretty often and I think it is a load of crap. Islam stared as a religion was war.
Show me this happening in Judaism
Uh, do you know Jewish history? Moses was a military leader...
[–]Cforq 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
1) Abraham is credited as the founder of Judaism, not Moses.
2) My point was more in reference to the "last throes" part of it. Where is the equivalent to the crusades, inquisitions, and witch hunts in Judaism?
[–]JasonMacker 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Abraham is credited as the founder of monotheism, not Judaism. God promised to Abraham that his descendents will become part of a great nation. One of his descendents, Moses, is the one who got the 613 Mitzvot.
Try reading the Book of Numbers.
[–]mleeeeeee 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Abraham is credited as the founder of Judaism, not Moses.
No, Abraham is regarded as the patriarch of not only the Jews (the Israelites, i.e. sons of Jacob), but also the Arabs (the Ishmaelites) and other tribes.
Moses is regarded as the great deliverer of the Israelites, and the father of their existence as a settled territorial nation.
[–]RepostThatShit -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
Why does it matter that Moses wasn't the "founder"? I guess by your logic the crusades don't count either because Jesus didn't personally lead them.
By the way, I in no way want to get entangled in this pointless argument, I'm just pointing out that your logic isn't consistent at all.
You are twisting my words a bit. My point is that religions don't follow the same pattern - so there is no basis for saying Islam is following the development pattern of Christianity.
[–]toodrunktofuck -2 points-1 points0 points 5 months ago
A lot of people say that. And I think that argument (that Islam needs its own "renaissance" and "age of enlightenment") is quite stupid. To put it in the most simple terms: extremist muslims don't live on the moon and have quite the possibility to leer at christianity's dark history and learn from it. But they proactively don't want to pick up secular ideas.
[–]sirbruce 9 points10 points11 points 5 months ago
I disagree. Plenty of extremist muslims "live on the moon"; I don't think the Wahabists in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan get much education on the Enlightenment and Protestantism, let alone an unbiased one.
Yet if you look at most of the leaders of they almost always come from educated backgrounds.
[–]sirbruce 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Sadly the educated are often in a better position to exploit the uneducated.
[–]toodrunktofuck 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
While this is surely true for people in very rural/ piss-poor areas it is surely not the case for a majority. Let's just take those who live in Europe (more than one would think in Germany and France). It is not necessary for them to know a lot about enlightenment and history to see that in these countries people are not prosecuted for their faiths etc. and this is among the reasons they reject the democracies they live in. The striving towards Islam as the only legislative and jurisdiction is a guiding principle in Islam. Therefore fundamental Islam cannot be secularized. Christianity in opposition has secular political systems „built in“ right from the start (see John 18:13, Luke 20:25 for example). Though deeply interwoven there was always the opposition of the Holy Roman Empire and the Pope. What I am saying is that the secularization of Europe is based upon very specific premises that simply do not exist in the "Muslim World". Of course Islam as practiced by Muslims will change over times but it is stupid to predict changes that are similar to those that took place because of a specific historical constellation. It will be something different and will have to be described in its own terms.
[–]doesnotgetthepoint 6 points7 points8 points 5 months ago
Pasta in all the orifices!
[–]derezzeduser 28 points29 points30 points 5 months ago
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 5 months ago
Our chief weapon is surprise, fear and surprise; two chief weapons, fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency! Er, among our chief weapons are: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and near fanatical devotion to the Pope!
Um, I'll come in again...
[–]EpicJ 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
Actually they used to tell you before hand about 30 to 40 days
[–]ssj2killergoten 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Learned that one from QI. They just HAVE to ruin everything
[–]JasonMacker 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
But what of the ruins at the acropolis, where the Parthenon is?
[–]HollowBastion 17 points18 points19 points 5 months ago
That dude is a fucking witch. He's been alive for two thousand years.
[–]butterflypoon 5 points6 points7 points 5 months ago
Maybe he's a Time Lord.
[–]lollerkeet 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
If he was a witch, would he really have survived the dunking?
[–]bcpond 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I freebased some eye of newt just before they captured me.
[–]schad500 16 points17 points18 points 5 months ago
Yes, of course.
Next up: Mormons.
[–]SoepWal 13 points14 points15 points 5 months ago
Mormonism is a religion of peace! If black people wanted to stay normal they shouldn't have made war on Jesus.
[–]schad500 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago
They're all religions of peace.
[–]Wxnzxn 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
I just have to say, a little bit out of context, that the "religion of peace" really is a misinterpretation.
Peace didn't necessarily mean absence of war, but was/is often used as "civil order". Civil order that can be implemented by the sword.
Christianity had indeed often played the role of the negotiator and peacekeeper in Europe. How? Because the catholic church wanted to assert it's power and keep catholics from fightin catholics, thus weakening the overall power of those loyal to the pope.
Of course it initiated wars in it's own interest all the time as well. Still, those nobles willing to keep their swords in the scabbard unless told to draw it were considered more pious than others.
So, really, this whole "religion of peace" is something that sort of changed it's meaning. They never claimed to be "peaceful" as we would claim today. And I personally think, the "religion of peace" that is claimed by some of the more radical muslims has a similiar meaning as above, meaning the religion of "law and order" so to speak.
[–]ApologeticCanadian 12 points13 points14 points 5 months ago
I'm sorry.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago
Why are you sorry? Are you a MUSLIM Canadian?
[–]RdMrcr 19 points20 points21 points 5 months ago
Canadians are a nation of peace, its okay.
[–][deleted] 16 points17 points18 points 5 months ago
Whew... that was a close one.
...
Wait a minute...
[–]bigcooter 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%27s_Hundred_Days
[–]Mylon 9 points10 points11 points 5 months ago
This comic is missing a panel where the Christian is chasing the guy with a baseball bat yelling, "Fag!". Oh wait, that would imply they haven't calmed down.
[–]JamMasterFelch 8 points9 points10 points 5 months ago
How long before the majority of Muslims stop being religious? my guess is an extremely long period of time.
[–]mavriksfan11 8 points9 points10 points 5 months ago
If you look at history you'll see that European influence spread (in a rather gruesome fashion) to conquer and take precedent before most cultures in the world through colonies in Africa, Asia, and the Americas.
The one place that didn't receive this influence as much was the Middle East. The Ottoman Empire was often ignored by Europeans and when it dissolved, the European powers just drew a bunch of circles and squares on a map to make the countries we now have there (Iraq for example).
Seeing as how most places that were colonized suffered immensely because of it (natives in the Americas, natives in Africa etc), we can see why the Middle East would be hesitant to accept Westernization. The problem is that industry and money-making are what Western civilization does well. Those two things often influence society and culture tremendously. There is one thing the Middle East can hold onto while still adopting Western business sense and industrial innovation, and that is Islam.
I'm not trying to justify anything, and as an ex-muslim, I have some serious issues with Islam as a religious doctrine, but if you want to understand why Islam has a strong foothold in the Middle East, that's why.
Disclaimer: the majority of muslims don't live in the Middle East, so this doesn't apply to most Muslims, just the fiercely religious ones.
[–]cyberslick188 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
While it's true that the majority of muslims don't technically live in the Middle East, it's also worth noting that by far the highest densities per person of Islam are found in the Middle East, and Greater Middle East.
[–]Dakillakan 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago
Indonesia is 86% Muslim.
[–]cyberslick188 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
And?
The overwhelming average density of muslims is in the Greater Middle East area. The sheer number amount may be elsewhere, but the population of the world where Islam is the highest percentage of people is in the Greater Middle Eastern area.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/globalconnections/mideast/maps/muslim.html
I'm not sure what there is to downvote here, I stated a verifiable fact.
[–]Dakillakan 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Sorry, I misread, I thought you said meant the countries with the highest ratio of Islam were all in the middle east.
[–]justicia311 -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
During the colonial era a majority of muslims across the globe lived under colonial rule. I don't see how a less populated middle east being independent really matters, it's not as if islamic thought can only develop in the ME.
[–]cyberslick188 -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
I wasn't really making any political statements or anything, just noting a simple fact.
[–]mavriksfan11 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
That has very little to do with most of what I said.
[–]cyberslick188 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
I disagree.
Oh?
I was talking about why Islam has a foothold in the Middle East, from a historical and social standpoint. Then as a disclaimer I reminded everyone that a majority of muslims don't live in the Middle East, so this doesn't apply to most muslims.
And you said "Don't forget. Lots of muslims live in the Middle East!"
Of course they do, otherwise it would be pointless to talk about the strong hold Islam has on the Middle East.
Probably about 400 years.
[–]JamMasterFelch 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Seth Macfarlane in a interview said around 200 years which I thought was way too soon. My guestimate is around 600-800 and that's if they havent murdered all the infidels by then.
[–]IlikeHistory 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago*
Ok I am going to post this to dispel the idea of religion and violence going hand in hand. Catholic Europe seems to have had less battlefield deaths than ancient Europe or more modern Europe by century. (I haven't looked at numbers for other religions or other regions of the world and the numbers might be harder to come by).
I am going to use Europe as an example to illustrate different time periods and the different battlefield casualty numbers
The time period 900 AD- 1400 AD seems to be one of the most peaceful times in Europe's history given battlefield casualties and it was also a time when Europe was united under a single religion. Could it be the Catholic Church actually minimized warfare between the barbarian tribes of Europe? (this is just theory and speculation to break up some preconceived notions of religion and I realize correlation doesn't equal causation)
This is under the rule of the Catholic Church since Protestantism has not taken over parts of Europe yet. In just 350 years Ancient Greece lost 300k men and Greece was only the size of one country. In 550 years in the Middle Ages Europe lost around 435k men and that is a large collection of countries.
Note I cannot access Pitirim Sorokin full book so I have to go to a third party website to get some of his data.
A large collection of countries "Pitirim Sorokin estimated that Europeans lost some 435,000 men on the battlefield between 900 and 1450 CE:"
A collection of many European countries 435000/550= 790 casualties per year
http://necrometrics.com/pre1700a.htm
A single country Greece "TOTAL: 303,460 Greeks lost on the battlefield from 500 to 146 BCE"
Single country Greece is averaging 303,000/354= 855 battle casualties per year
http://necrometrics.com/pre1700b.htm#Ellas
Some data on Rome just for a rough comparison
"Extremely Preliminary and Debatable) TOTAL:
All Punic Wars: 1.0M Gladiators: 1.0M Slave Wars (Servile Wars): 1.0M Cimbri-Teutoni War: 0.3M Social War: 0.3M Mithridatic Wars: ca. 0.5M Gallic War: 1.0M Juleo-Claudian Paranoia: 0.028M Jewish Wars: 0.4M Boudica's Revolt: 0.15M Decline and Fall: 7.0M TOTAL: over 13.0M"
http://necrometrics.com/romestat.htm
Summary figures for 9 European Countries from 1101 to 1925
Century------ Armies Strength-----Casualties
1101-1200-----1,161,000-------29,000
1201-1300----2,372,000--------68,440
1301-1400---- 3,947,000--------169,929
1401-1500----6,910,000---------364,220
1501-1600---16,707,000---------896,195
1601-1700---25,796,000---------3,711,090
1701-1800---31,055,000---------4,505,990
1801-1900---24,233,800---------3,625,627
1901-1925---60,425,000---------22,035,150
Page 549 Social and cultural dynamics: a study of change in major systems Pitirim Aleksandrovich Sorokin
http://books.google.com/books?id=fbZyka2W_1cC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
The Age of Enlightenment originating around 1650 doesn't seem to diminish the level of battlefield casualties. In fact during the 1600's we see a sharp upturn (once again I am aware correlation doesn't equal causation and obviously technology plays a role)
"An Age of Enlightenment (or simply the Enlightenment or Age of Reason) was a cultural movement of intellectuals in 18th century Europe, that sought to mobilize the power of reason, in order to reform society and advance knowledge. It promoted science and intellectual interchange and opposed superstition,[1] intolerance and abuses in church and state. Originating about 1650 to 1700, "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages
Martin Luther (the guy associated with Protestantism) his Ninety-Five Theses in 1517 for some time comparisons.
[–]EvanRWT 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Your same source also says that 3 million people died in the Crusades between 1095 and 1191.
Yet you quote a source saying that only 435,000 men "died on the battlefield" between 900 and 1450, a period that includes the Crusades. You even do a calculation based on this figure to show how ancient Greece was so much worse based on these numbers.
What am I not understanding? Did you not include the Crusades in your quote? I have read many estimates of deaths in the Crusades, ranging from 1 million to 9 million. I guess nobody knows the exact number, but all seem to agree on the order of millions. Why is your total only 435,000 seeing that it includes over 5 centuries, while the figure for the Crusades is only 1 century out of those 5?
Are these not "battlefield deaths"? Do European deaths in Middle Eastern battlefields not count? What is going on?
[–]IlikeHistory 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago*
I was only using Pitirim Sorokins numbers. That website lists estimates from all kinds of different sources and some of them are unreliable. I only used the website because I cannot see Pitirim Sorokins full book without paying a lot of money.
I used Pitirim Sorokins numbers because there is a famous paper written by William Eckhardt in the 1990s called War-related Deaths Since 3000 BC which describes Sorokins numbers as "the only systemic estimates from 500 BC to 1500 AD for 11 European nations"
I don't have an accurate death toll form the Crusades on hand at the moment but Wikipedia lists them from 1 million to 3 million. This takes place over a 300 year time period and includes civilians as well. You of course have civilians dying during the wars from famines and massacres such as the Christian massacre of Jerusalem and the Muslim massacres of Edessa and Acre.
Pitirim Sorokins numbers were just for Greek and 11 European nation's soldiers killed in battle. They were not the casualties for all the armies they fought or civilians who died in war.
For instance in the Second Persian Invasion of Greece it is estimated the Persians brought with them 300k too 500k men. Of those only about 100k were combat troops. that included a navy as well they brought with them though.
Source
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QXpHeKULZg&feature=related
Anyways calculating just the solider deaths on each side of the Crusades would take some research.
Edit: Here is quote on the Crusades which describes the death toll having more to do with disease and famine than battlefield causalities.
"As in almost all medieval wars the casualties and material damage were relatively light and localized. More people died of disease or starvation as a direct or indirect result of these campaigns than were killed in these campaigns"
Page 81 The Crusades By David Nicolle
http://books.google.com/books?id=dnznUKptrbMC&printsec=frontcover
[–]EvanRWT 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
There are at least a dozen estimates of the deaths in the Crusades from various historians, which range between 1 million to 9 million. I am not sure I understand the logic of overturning the work of a dozen (or more) historians based on the word of one historian. Unless Mr. Eckhardt's opinion is the consensus opinion among the majority of historians today? Can you confirm this?
I am also unsure about the reasoning behind including only "battlefield deaths". If the point is to prove that fewer people died as a result of war in the Christian era than in pagan Greece, then this criteria is singularly useless. A death is a death, and a civilian's life is no less worthy than that of a soldier. Some might argue that violence which kills women and children is even worse than that which kills soldiers, who at least understood their fate.
Wars kill people in many ways, among which battlefield deaths are only a part. Deliberate policies of killing civilians, burning farmland, setting fire to cities with their populations inside - these are all deaths directly attributable to war - and it makes not one whit of difference to the original post about deaths in the name of religion.
It makes me wonder whether Sorokins' number includes the various purges against the Jews during this period. They were certainly not battlefield deaths, but they were definitely caused by religion.
I read through some of your previous posts about education and illiteracy during the middle ages, and the role of the Catholic Church in science and the arts. While I appreciate the fact that you take the trouble to provide citations for what you say, I get the uncomfortable feeling that this does not avoid a major bias on your part, since you choose to tell one side of the story, which you back up with citations. Of course, people here are free to provide citations of their own, but many of us are not historians and don't have them handy.
The reason why I think your account biased is because it touches only upon the consequences, not the causes. Yes, it is a fact that learning was kept alive in the monasteries. Yes, it is a fact that many of the scholars, few as they were, did belong to the Catholic Church. But does this really mean anything unless you also ask why, and what the situation might have been without a Catholic Church?
In a time when people got burned at the stake for small heresies, is it any wonder that most scholars in the western world were Christian? If they were not Christian, wouldn't they have been dead? Being a scholar requires some freedom from daily concerns. If you wish to write a book or study a scientific subject, you can only do so if you have some education to begin with, and aren't grubbing for food from sunup to sundown. Peasants didn't have much free time for this, nor the education. They couldn't write those beautiful manuscripts or even read them, since they were illiterate.
My perspective is that the Church did these things because the Church could afford to - it was among the wealthiest institutions of the time. Not only were people required to tithe 10% of their income to the Church, many gave freely above and beyond that. Many others had their property revert to the Church, either over Church-led accusations of heresy, or because their were problems with inheritance, or because they died without heirs. Kings tried these things too, but no King lasted very long, whereas the Church has lasted for 2000 years.
So against the fact that the Church produced many scholars is the fact that the Church also taxed the peasants to within an inch of their lives, leaving them with no safety margin to do anything other than head back to their labor every morning and hope to have enough food to survive. They produced scholars because they made sure no one else could.
This situation did not change until the mid-14th century, when the Black Death depopulated much of Europe. Then, the survivors suddenly found themselves in possession of land that would normally have been split between 2 brothers and 3 cousins, had they been alive. This produced a shortage of labor and consequent wage increases, as well as the greater amount of acreage per person. No doubt this would also have been taken away by the Church and petty Kings in time, as it had been taken away before, but fortunately this particular plague came at a time which was soon to be followed by a serious weakening of the power of the Catholic Church, with the Protestant Reformation, and the Renaissance. So this was when the wealth finally "stuck" to the peasants, eventually leading to the rise of towns, commerce, and eventually a middle class who could afford to educate their children and produce secular scholars of their own.
[–]TheCodexx 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
How about civilian casualties from riots, witch hunts, invasions? Also, deaths in the Middle East during The Crusades?
We also need to consider if the number of wars caused by religion outweigh the number and severity of ones prevented by religion. Obviously, that's impossible to measure, but we can conjecture that it's not impossible that, had several wars been avoided with no secular analogue, that very well could be thousands of lives saved. The Bible has certainly encouraged violence and some people have put it into practice. In a lot of ways, the spread of the Abrahamic religions has been forced, either mandated by the state or by the sword.
[–]OhTheTallOne 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Is this drawn by the illustrator of the Horrible Histories books?
[–]KeepRightExcept2Pass 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
Two-time Pulitzer Prize-winning editorial cartoonist David Horsey.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
We cant really say that all of them look happy tough xD
[–]dorisfrench 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Shouldn't that guy be a woman?
[–]spoon_tato 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Actually... he wouldn't be a witch, he'd be a warlock, duhhhhhhhhh.
[–]ImBuzzed 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
yup that's why I love Christianity now a days , it has become commercialized, it has lost allot of its Sacredness. Islam is next, make it hip to believe is Allah and it looses its edge.
[–]UnknownArchive 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Anyone seeking more info might also check here:
source: karmadecay
[–]nacobnacob 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Religion is pretty terrible. All the examples in this comic are examples of people using the bible and religion as leverage for power. That's not what the bible is for. Don't judge Christianity on what Christians, or those who claim to be Christians are capable of doing.
[–]McChucklenuts -8 points-7 points-6 points 5 months ago
The Quran itself is not a violent book. The teachings of Jesus are not violent either. So the in a sense both are "religions of peace". The problem is people are inherently evil fucking scumbags and will use any excuse to do barbaric things to one another. The individual described as Jesus in the new testament would have been sickened by the crusades and the inquisition. Even more if you told them they were being done in his name.
[–]zerotoone 15 points16 points17 points 5 months ago
bullshit. i work as a journalist in pakistan, am an ex-muslim, an atheist and a local, and the taliban routinely say in interviews "yes, yes, wrong in the quran, but look at the hadith! our prophet killed women and children in times of war, so rules during war are different, you see. it's all good." the Quran itself isn't a violent book, but the Hadith are a collection of "he says she says" and they leave so much leeway to interpret things violently because of when and where they were taken down, that it's kinda moot to say the book itself isn't violent if you believe in both. most muslims do, and arguably, they also pick and choose. disturbingly, one of the earliest recorded quotes, from when they started actually gathering his quotes for future guidance, (and he actually disapproved initially because it'd mean idolizing him and his methods) actually says to throw an hadith that contradicts the Quran against the wall. but this is carefully omitted/not mentioned by the clergy because they don't want to have to piss off different sects who refer to books that have recorded quotes anywhere from between 40 or 60 to 200 years after the prophet's death. the Taliban giving the interviews dodge a question related to it, or if they're on the lower rungs, which they are usually, they say they've never heard of it, and insinuate the interviewer is making it up.
[–]theFinite 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
You said "bullshit" when you infact provided examples to support his claims... Either way, I agree with you both. A true Muslim should believe that God is benevolent and ultimately wise, and therefore would never order humans to do something inhumane. If one explanation of a verse in the Quran sounds insane, then it's probably not the right definition. Similarly to the Hadith: A God wouldn't assign a prophet to lead his people with rediculous doctrines. If one heard a doctrine that seemed opposing to Quranic teachings, it's probably wrong, and the right thing to do is ignore it, not abuse it. The taliban is a bunch of uneducated monsters in my opinion. They do not represent Islam in any shape or form, they just abuse the hell out of it. A good thing about Islam in my opinion, is that one is judged based on his intentions, and common sense and logic are encouraged when considering which doctrines to follow.
[–]zerotoone 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
i don't know, you'll have a hard time convincing the Ullema that a Muslim need only act on his niyyat.
[–]NovusHomoSapiens 18 points19 points20 points 5 months ago
No. Jesus came to uphold not to deny the Old Testament which is an extremely violent book. The same applies to the Qu'ran. So all in all they are not religions of peace.
[–]SketchyLogic -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
Jesus came to uphold not to deny the Old Testament
That's not true. There are quite a few passages in the New Testament where Jesus outright states, "the old laws you've been following are stupid and violent. How about we just start being nice instead." Matthew 5 is a great example. This is pretty significant, as it's ultimately the reason why the religious leaders pushed to have Jesus killed.
[–]THE_PROMISE 22 points23 points24 points 5 months ago
I'm confused by all this. Are you guys saying there are...contradictions in the Bible?
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 5 months ago
gasp Heresy!
[–]Bcteagirl 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.
2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)
3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)
4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)
The bible itself seems to disagree with you quite strongly on that point.
[–]NovusHomoSapiens 3 points4 points5 points 5 months ago*
What not true? Jesus said it himself and you declare what he said was not true?
Let me make it crystal clear for you: that book (the whole Bible) is inconsistent. It was written by 3 followers of Jesus and just because Matthew claimed Jesus said such things doesn't mean Jesus really did. Idolization biases every personal opinion.
Edit: here is the proof for you or you would call me a liar:
Matthew 5:17 - “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
[–]Shiftab 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Paul said it too
Colossians 2:14 - "having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross."
[–]Mephibosheth 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Galatians 3:23-27
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
Matthew 22:34-40
34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
[–]SketchyLogic 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Let me clarify. You stated that Jesus came simply to uphold the Old Testament. I pointed out that this was not the case, as there are passages where he directly argues against the old scripture.
I don't normally care to correct petty mistakes in these sorts of discussions, but this is not petty. Jesus' rejection of many of the old laws is a significant part of Christianity.
[–]NovusHomoSapiens 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
I didn't state that Jesus came to simply uphold the Old Testament. I said he came to uphold the Old Testament and that doesn't necessarily exclude his other teachings. But his other teachings don't make up for the crimes of the Old Testament which is in the end an extremely violent book. If that book is not significant to what Jesus taught later then why don't Catholics and Christians just drop it?
Good question. The Old Testament is significant to Christians as it gives context to the New Testament. Understanding what Jesus changed is vital to understanding why his changes were so important. It also allows Christians to "get" a lot of the Old Testament references in the New Testament.
To put it crudely, it's the same reason why the Hobbit is significant to Lord of the Rings fans.
But yeah, I'm sure this flies over the heads of most Christians.
[–]NovusHomoSapiens 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
So if I am not mistaking, your point is that Jesus was no more human than any other human beings on this planet as he also contradicted himself, or let's put it this way, not everything he said was true because there was contradiction (or inconsistency) in his teachings?
That wasn't my point in the slightest. And I don't know how I could have been more clear.
Excellent. Now we have clarified that your point meant a different idea than what I hypothesized then could you please account for the inconsistency in Jesus' teachings, that being the contradictions presented above?
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
I don't know if you are christian or not and actually believe that (or maybe you are just informed).. but two things
1) How is that not the biggest contradiction ever? "Oh hey guys, my names Jesus, remember all that stuff my dad, a.k.a. the all-knowing omni-potent creator of the universe... uhh yeah, he was completely wrong about all that shit he wrote". Sorry but even from the perspective who may actually believe in a god, that is just ridiculous.
2) I'm fairly sure the main verse in contention says something about fulfilling the old laws. From what I've read, people see that as either making them no longer valid, or just fulfilling them in the sense that now everyone is forgiven.
[–]McChucklenuts -3 points-2 points-1 points 5 months ago
So turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor as thyself, let he who is without sin cast the first stone, are consistent with the crusades and the inquisition? Got it.
TIL that the golden rule advises you to kill and torture others.
[–]wes337 5 points6 points7 points 5 months ago
Now you're getting the hang of it!
[–]SpasticSpoon 9 points10 points11 points 5 months ago
TIL the old testament doesn't exist.
[–]CuresedInEternity92 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
just because some parts aren't violent doesn't mean others get a pass, if you don't think its a violent book then read it , maybe again if u have before, i think any philosophy that can cause you ignore facts and go only on faith is dangerous
[–]Petrikohr 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Exactly. The main point is that if it was a religion or book of peace there would be NO horrible and negative things in it. There are plenty though and they are fairly easy to find.
[–]elizabethshort 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
If it is god's will, certainly.
[–]redworm 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
TYL the golden rule isn't a christian creation.
[–]joker559 4 points5 points6 points 5 months ago
I got about 40 more of these just from the Quran. It is not a peaceful book. It has not be "perverted" by extremists. It is the fundamentalists chopping off journalists heads and bombing embassies because of cartoons, and they do it because the fundamentals allow them and order that they do.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
In their defense...
2:191 is talking about killing the people who "drove you out" of your land... aka the people who had already killed you. It's still not peaceful, but I think it's definitely not cruel. People do have the right to defend themselves.
3:56 doesn't really tell it's followers anything. In fact, it's telling the people NOT to do anything with apostates since god will already be punishing them (with hell and maybe making their life shitty). That being said, in hadith there is a fair amount about killing apostates, there are also many muslims that believe they contradict the quran.
4:95: once again not necessarily peaceful but its not like it's telling you to just go kill innocent people. All of the war and "slay them" verses are about people who are either attacking you or your society.
8:12, also in the context of war. Once again, also not peaceful but it's not like muslims should read that and go out and kill the next atheist minding his own business.
SO overall, I wouldn't exactly call it peaceful, but it's not really out of the norm for war (which is what those all were referencing).
Exactly... Damn, I should really learn to use less word when trying to deliver a message. My explanation is very similar yet 3 times as long :(
[–]SaadLulz -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
Verses are out of context.
[–]joker559 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
Care to give the context then?
I'll also be interested to see how you explain beheading and chopping finger tips off could possibly be peaceful.
[–]zerotoone 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
right, also an atheist, and they are out of context. each of them refers to either a time when they were being ritually persecuted, had Benedict Arnolds amongst them screwing them over, or other non believers breaking truces after having no intention of keeping them in the first place, etc, etc.
[–]yellowstone10 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
If we're being historically accurate, the context is that Muhammad's tribe was one among many fighting for control over the Arabian Peninsula, and so naturally the holy book his tribe created will endorse the use of violence in a tribal warfare setting.
I'll try to explain contexts that would make more sense out of these verses:
For the first one, I just read it in the Quran in Arabic and it CLEEAAARRRLY says in the verses before and after that this is the case of self defence. God orders his people to fight whoever trespasses against them and opresses them (fight to defend themselves... one of most basic rights of human beings), and clearly says not to initiate because God doesn't like agressors. He also says that they should fight until the agressors seize their offence, and only to persist fighting those that continue to opress. Fighting could be done in many ways, not necessarily violent ones. And when the relgion was still very small and vulnerable you could see how important it would have been to defend themselves and not be opressed: People of that time had to survive to carry on the message they believed in and defend its basic ideology of standing against opression, when they were under constant attack of stone worshipers who had no tolerance to other religions.
For the second verse, this is not encouraging human violence at all. It is simply God's will to punish those who refuse him conciously. I mean, in Islam he is a perfect God, so he obviously wouldn't torture someone undeservedly. Arguing this point is futile at the moment because we would be basically arguing the main doctrines in Islam, which isn't our purpose here. As far as violence goes, this refers to hell and just punishment by God, and does not imply that humans should be violent.
As for the third, yes, those who die while fighting in God's name shall be rewarded greatly, but if God only condone's fighting to defend against opression, then how can that be a bad thing? Violence in this case is again justified by simple human rights, before being being a divine order: I mean, if I were an atheist living in a country I love and was attacked by people who want to take over my land and kill me, it would simply be insane to just "sit peacefully" and watch them rape me. I should either stand back while the trained soldiers protect me, or if I'm passionate enough, I should fight myself to protect the land and the people that I love. You could define this as violence if you want, but you can't condemn it as wrongful. It is necessary even in the most (reasonably) peaceful ways of living.
As for the final one, it is confusing to read to be honest. IT IS out of context indeed, but the context isn't very clear either. I will inquire about it more though, and if interested I'll come back and tell you what I found out (It is a very interesting verse indeed). But be assured, as a Muslim, I won't cut off anyone's fingertips...
In any case, I don't think I would also say "it's not a violent book"... I mean it does have a lot of violence, but most of it is "mythical" (as in afterlife punishment of the sinners"... The only violence incouraged in this world, as far as I have found, is in defence of one's self against opression. God demands peace between humans ultimately, and every true Muslim should keep this message in mind. The thing is, many ignorants take such verses and explain them to suit their own ideals, and use them to justify acts of violence. Religion is a powerful tool in the hands of everyone, those who use it to their personal benefit (without trespassing against the rights of others), and those who ABUSE it for their own sake, in disregard of the true consequences of their actions.
[–]murtad 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm
[–]SaadLulz -6 points-5 points-4 points 5 months ago
Citing Islamophobic website = Bullshit
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 5 months ago
How is it bullshit?
Are they just making up the quranic verses that they are copy/pasting as well as citing?
Hey guys, apparently reading the same text on different websites magically changes the meaning....
[–]theFinite -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
Using them out of context and examining the negative interpretations ALONE is not a valid way to proove anything.
[–]murtad 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago*
your point would be valid if there were like couple of instances like this....but they happen to be all over the quran..
Well, referring to a website that is extremely biased and set to make the Quran look as bad as possible isn't valid in any case... Referring to an objective source to get examples would be much more practical and provide more valid results. In this specific case of violence, there is plenty of graphical violence in the Quran for sure, but most of it is "mythical" (just punishment of the sinners in the afterlife), and the rest refers to violence on earth but only in cases of self-defence and war against opressors (which is valid regardless of religious beliefs) (and there are some verses with unclear and arguable explanations of course). But when taking Quranic verses out of context, one can make it seem as if God orders believers to mercilessly kill anyone who disagrees with them in the most inhumane ways, which is definitely not the case. So yeah, no matter how many times an idea appears in any book, if a website has the obvious intention of twisting the examples it uses from the book in order to support its own ideology, it can't be used as a valid source.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
No but the verses themselves dont change.
The Quran itself is not a violent book
You've never read it then. Even if you have read something called the Koran, you've never actually read the real Koran unless you speak a basically forgotten subset of Arabic languages. Even if you did speak those Arabic languages, you almost assuredly aren't one of the ~200 or so people alive today who have actually seen any of the holy documents.
What you've read is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy translated into one language, another language, with things added by different groups over hundreds of years, all based on mostly falsified oral stories told from illiterate sand people 300+ years after Mohammeds death.
None of these even matters, because you've obviously not read even the poorest translations of the Koran or Hadith, because there is not a possible way to interpret them as non violent. Absolutely impossible.
The easiest way to spot someone lying about the Koran is to wait for them to say it's nonviolent. There are no fewer than 120 verses in the Koran that explicitly call for violence.
Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
I think you get the point. There is NO possible way to read the Koran and to honestly believe it's a non violent book. Unlike the vague ramblings of Jesus that can often be intrepreted one way or another, the explicit ramblings of Mohammed (which were poorly stolen from Judaism and Christianity to begin with, and this is a verifiable fact) routinely and repeatedly call for physical violence.
[–][deleted] 5 months ago
[deleted]
Who said Muslims were violent BackwardPhilanthrop?
I said that the Koran was violent in nature, nothing else. Don't project your negative emotions onto my posts please.
[–]McChucklenuts -2 points-1 points0 points 5 months ago
If you actually read the Koran, rather than going to hate sites, you would know that the violence it permits is in self-defense. There is no part of the Koran that says it is ok to instigate war against people that have done nothing to you. There is also no part of the Koran that permits the slaying of innocent people (women and children). So please Shut the Fuck up and go preach your Islamaphobic BS somewhere else.
[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 5 months ago
All of those verses are pretty much in the context of war or about people who previously were at war with you.
IS it still violent? Yes.
Should you worry about the muslim next door coming to shop your head off if he finds out your atheist? Definitely not.
Was that possibly the conclusion I was leading toward? Honestly? Is that really the message you got from my post?
No not you, but a lot of people seem to be taking these verses as such. "Kill the unbelievers" seems a lot worse then it is with no context.
"The problem is people are inherently evil fucking scumbags and will use any excuse to do barbaric things to one another."
Which explains why countries like my own (canada), execute people at least every month (honestly way more) for things like apostasy or sorcery right? I mean, we Canadians just love calling for the death of people for speaking out against our country.
Give me a fucking break. Yes there are interpretations of the quran, or the bible that are perfectly okay. If you actually follow them literally it's a whole different story.
Religion can and DOES cause violence, denying that is just stupid.
[–]thepenfifteenclub 5 points6 points7 points 5 months ago
Eh. They believe silly things. So do Christian and Jewish people, and people of every other religion.
I don't really respect other people's beliefs, but I normally keep my thoughts about other people's beliefs to myself--except on the internet, or around likeminded individuals. Generally, the more specific someone's beliefs are, the sillier I find them. Believing in some power greater than yourself? Nice, vague, and reasonable. Believing that God personally decreed you cannot eat meat on Fridays? Hopefully you have a sense of humor about your silly rituals. Believing in enchanted underwear? C'mon. Really?
The atheism subreddit is sometimes entertaining because of the likeminded people who are occasionally humorous, often at the expense of people who believe silly things, not because of any great insights that I would take into my public life.
[–]Solareclipsed 4 points5 points6 points 5 months ago
I will combat anyone who forces their children to believe what they believe, no matter their religion or conviction. I don't "hate" muslims. I hate people that indoctrinate small children to believe 2000 year old fairy tales and to ignore scientific facts. Are they muslim, so be it. Are they christian, so be it.
Actually, the number I'm really interested in is how many still believe there should be the death penalty for apostasy, and how many think the laws laid out in the Koran, Hadith and Sharia (respectively, as not all accept all sources from what I have gathered) should be implemented.
This troubles me a lot more than warfare and terrorism, which are just brutal means to achieve those goals.
[–]notamouse418 -10 points-9 points-8 points 5 months ago*
umm... i think this would be more truthful if the last panel showed Uncle Sam showing up to the desert saying "America is a Nation of Peace"
[–]notamouse418 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
yo to all the people who downvoted the shit out of me, you're totally entitled to your thoughts and opinions but I want to clarify this comment. This cartoon seems to imply that the Western civilized world has been tormented by Christians for millennia and that just when Christianity's softened, the Muslim world is attacking us. the problem with this is that most of the violence in the Middle East is the result of Western influence/American threats. It just doesn't seem fair to pretend that the Christian Western world is innocent and soon to be persecuted by the backwards and fanatic Middle East
[–]VikingTy 5 points6 points7 points 5 months ago
Whether the Bible says it or not, the truth of the matter is that these atrocities (crusades, inquisitions, genocide, witch trials, etc.) did happen. They happened in great numbers and they happened in the name of Christianity. It wasn't just a few extremists who did these things; in most cases, these acts were sanctioned or directed by the head of the Church itself. This is historical fact, not hearsay. The idea that Christianity has a violent history is not "ignorant." It is simply the truth. Things may be much better now (and may be more in line with what the Bible actually preaches), but that still doesn't change the past.
[–][deleted] 5 months ago*
[–]mleeeeeee 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
the bible says that the bible is the core of christianity
Religions are to be understood not only in terms of their religious texts, but also in terms of their doctrines, their practices, their leaders, etc. You can't impose a Protestant Sola Scriptura theology retroactively onto history.
[–]rahtin -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
This one always makes me laugh nervously out loud.
[–]SirHumanoid -1 points0 points1 point 5 months ago
What I like about most ignorant people is that they can be so easily manipulated by simple things such as a cartoon...
Who needs to open a book and study history from people who actually lived under the shadow of Islam...The Pagans, the Jews, the Christians, the Hindus of those times that lived under the Muslims...
But I am an atheist...I take my history lesson from comics because very educated cartoonists make them...
[–]Ajatasatru 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
Too bad moderate voices, that believe the above, don't speak up against extremists when they call for the murder of "infidels".
Not just Islam, but all religions. Unless the moderates speak up against the extremists, religion will remain a bane on society, no matter how pure the motives.
[–]Bibidiboo -10 points-9 points-8 points 5 months ago
Seriously? Islam is nothing like this, I find it sad you compare modern day Islam to christianity in the middle ages and high class enlightening. Plain sad discrimination.
[–]antigerman 4 points5 points6 points 5 months ago*
How is Islam "nothing like this"? People openly criticizing Islam and those who don't live by its rules are being threatened,prosecuted and killed all over the world, not only in Islamic countries. ( Honor killings , 9/11, Theo van Gogh,...) Islamic countries today are way behind secular and most christian countries when it comes to human rights, the role of women in society, how homosexuals are treated, how those who leave their religion are treated and in many other aspects. The Qur'an has very clear rules as to how societies should look like, and it's not pretty. How is this "discrimination"? It's not even about individuals. Discrimination is about treatment of persons. How can you "discriminate" against an ideology?
whoa. hold on, honor killings have nothing to do with Islam. they're products of Pashtunwali and other local laws and customs which have been around centuries before Islam was even founded.
[–]antigerman 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
Thank you, you're right about the honor killings. My point still stands though.
sure the rest does. no worries. i just see it everywhere now so i thought i'd point it out.
[–]Montaf5 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Story_of_Umm_Qirfa
Have you looked at what iran or saudi arabia has been doing?
Sorry but when 10's of thousands of people are calling for the execution of someone who tweeted a few lines about mohammed, that is NOT okay. Or what about the guy who was executed in iran for converting to christianity? What about the 3-4 people executed for sorcery last year in SA? These are all things that come from (maybe poor) interpretations of the quran, or from hadith, but they are definitely religiously inspired.
Islam as a religion is not above criticism, and there are many cases for that. That doesn't mean the same criticisms should apply to every single follower, because obviously every muslim doesn't have the same interpretation but the religion itself is fair game.
[–]slytherinprincess -5 points-4 points-3 points 5 months ago
This deserves my up-vote . Kbye. :)
[–]SuperMarbro[S] 10 points11 points12 points 5 months ago
I like how you assume ignorance upon others without having any prerequisite for making such a broad and arrogant statement besides a funny comic and peoples thoughts of it.
[–]prettyunicorn 2 points3 points4 points 5 months ago
You haven't been a redditor for very long, have you?
[–]iamnotfromtexas90 1 point2 points3 points 5 months ago
wow. of all comments on reddit, this is deserving the most of the esteemed billy madison line:
"what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. "
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
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