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Harry Potter, biggest problem (25.media.tumblr.com)

submitted ago by OWL16

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[–]wolf3r 110 points111 points ago

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Buckbeak never died. You can't use the time turner to change history, you just can travel there and do actions, that have already been done. Harry's parents were killed, there was evidence that they weren't mystically saved by someone from the future. You never see them kill Buckbeak. Just though you might wanna know...

[–]grecfest 14 points15 points ago

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Exactly. Also, there's no evidence that suggest time turners allow you to travel forward in time. In the book/movie, they travel back a few hours in time and them re live those hours with their previous selves until they arrive at the moment their previous selves travel back in time, thus "catching up" to the present.

[–]sto79be -3 points-2 points ago

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That doesn't make sense and would suggest a universe that doesn't include free will, the choice to use the time turner or not. The events that unfolded were in direct reponse to the choice to use the time turner and the actions taken thereafter, which affected the outcome. If they had chosen not to use the time turner when they did, what would have happened to Buckbeak? Conversely, what would have been if the time turner was used just after Harry's parent's death.

Edit: To try and clarify, if you're suggesting that you just travel there and do actions that have already been done, what happens to those actions if you choose not to use the time turner?

[–]Inabit 35 points36 points ago

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There is a massive room in the ministry holding Prophecies so why would you assume this is a world with free will?

[–]MrNameless 12 points13 points ago

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Wasn't this all clarified by Dumbledore? A prophecy isn't set in stone. Voldemorte was the one who chose to give it validity and do what he did. In doing so, he was the one who brought it about.

[–]OWL16[S] 4 points5 points ago

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the prophecy was set, just not the person it was for. it was set for 2 people, voldemort choose which one

[–]passenger955 1 point2 points ago

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Yes, but what if Voldemort wouldn't have killed either? Harry potter would have grown up to be a normal wizard, and wouldn't have killed Voldemort. Sure someone could have came along and destroyed the horcruxes and killed Voldemort. Things only went down the way they did because Voldemort thought that the prophecy would come true, so he killed the Potters, which made the prophecy come true. If he would have just let the prophecy go, then it wouldn't have came true.

[–]Inabit 1 point2 points ago

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So the prophecy isn't set in stone but it still unfolded exactly as was predicted? Sounds a lot like "set in stone" to me. The path may be winding but the destination is clear.

[–]smydhaleigh 1 point2 points ago

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Voldemorte? The Latino equivalent?

[–]TheDenseWall 9 points10 points ago

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The time turner follows this theory - predestination paradox wiki

The article makes more sense than trying to explain it myself.

[–]Kiram 1 point2 points ago

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Is there some reason that we MUST presume free will in the Harry Potter universe? I mean, sure, it might make the story less satisfying if you think about it too much, but is there any practical reason that free will needs to exist?

[–]sto79be 0 points1 point ago

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I guess not, but it would be an odd preposition.

[–]fatalillusion 1 point2 points ago

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Yes, we could deduce from this that there is no free will in the Harry Potter universe. But its possible they just happened to not change the timeline, it doesn't mean its impossible not to. For example if Harry had run out with a gun and shot the executioner in the face that would have changed the course of events, the question is whether he choose not to do that (he has free will, but this leads to a multitude of other problems) or couldn't possibly have done that (he has no free will). Of course there may not actually be a difference.

If they didn't use the time turner Buckbeak would have died, but they did... so he didn't.

[–]wolf3r 0 points1 point ago*

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One does not simply not use a time turner, when he's supposed to. For example Hermione didn't have to throw that shell (was it a snail shell? i think it was a snail shell) in Hagrid's cabin and she did. You have to types of time travelling: one, where you can actually change history (this can be seen in Back to the future), which makes more sense because you have completely free will, as in RL. In this type (Harry Potter) you simply do stuff you have to do. There is no way you could do something else, even if you really really wanted. I know it sounds weird but that's the biggest flaw with this type of time travelling. That is why it's better to choose the another type (back to the future), it takes skill to fuck up there.

EDIT: Let's take a look at what would happen if Dumbledore decided, that he'll go back and warn Harry's parents. If he tried to do that, he'd probably get killed in the past in some way, presumably an accident. Or maybe the parents wouldn't believe him and stayed home anyway. Or maybe something would brought his attention elsewhere and he'd forget. Why? Because if he succeeded in warning them, it'd change history. And time turner doesn't change history, it sets it up the way it's supposed to be. Somewhete ITT is a link to the wikipedia entry called 'Predestination paradox'. Check it out, very relevant.

EDIT2: I couldn't resist but adding this, because it sounds funny: Dumbledore couldn't save them by travelling back in time, because there was simply TOO LATE for that.

[–]passenger955 0 points1 point ago

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Or maybe dumbledore wouldn't have died, the parents would have believed him because he is fucking Dumbledore, he would have not forgot to tell the parents. Why does the time turner have to set it up the way its supposed to be? Why cant there be two paths? A: The actual story to Harry Potter. Lily and James Potter die, Harry lives, goes on to kill Voldemort. B: Dumbledore decides to go back in time and warn Lily and James of the future. They believe him and don't die. The present day Dumbledore would have no reason to go back in time to warn them. This is where i think people believe that because Dumbledore doesn't go back in this timeline than he can't go back to warn them and the timeline would cease to exist. Im not saying that couldn't happen, but i think that Dumbledore wouldn't have to go back in time in this timeline. In this timeline if Dumbledore went back in time, simply because Lily and James told him that he went back in time to save them so he thought he had to, all he would find would be the other himself saving them. He would just be looking at this from the outside. The outcome would not change if he wouldn't have gone back in this timeline. Lily and James would have been saved by the other timeline Dumbledore Still. TL;DR Dumbledore could have gone back and saved Harry's parents.

[–]wolf3r 1 point2 points ago

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Because time turner doesn't have the ability to sctually change history to a different path. Was Bucklebeak ever killed! No! There was just the sound of an axe hitting the pumpkins, so they thought he was dead, while in fact there were other Hermione and Harry from the future saving him. If the time turner worked the way you say, Bucklebeak wouldn't be saved, he would have been dead, and Hermione and Harry would have to go back and actually save him. This way they saved him, but he was never actually killed.

[–]passenger955 0 points1 point ago

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I see your point that Buckbeak (not Bucklebeak) never died, but this sole example does not show that the timeturner can't actually change history. You see time travel is funny in that people think that it can never change history, but it can. You see it just seems like history had never changed because it's the only history you know of. Lets say for a second that they didn't go back in time, they wouldn't have saved buckbeak from death, sirius wouldn't have been set free. This would have been the history, but since they used the time turner, they did go back and save buckbeak, which led them to save sirius. This changed history into what we know of in the books. So you see the time turner actually did end up changing history.

[–]wolf3r 1 point2 points ago*

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No, it didn't. This type of time travelling assumes time as a straight, unchangeable line. There was never an alternative line that had to be overwritten - Buckbeak and Sirius were actually never been in danger. If it had been the way you say, Harry couldn't see himself save himself, because that is something that would need to be fixed in a new timeline. The timeline in Harry Potter is one straight line. You can jump all over it as much as you want but you can never actually do something that "hasn't been done", something that the timeline doesn't expect.

EDIT: Since Harry Potter's line is straight - unlike f.e. Back to the Future - Dumbledore can't go back and save Harry's parents. Here we go with the time travel paradox - if he goes back and saves them, he won't have a reason to do it again in the future, ergo it never happens etc. Now if it used timeline from Back to the Future, it would be an entirely different question. He could go back and save them, and they could live happily ever after. All of this would be possible, because it would be happening in a brand new timeline. But it's not, because this isn't the type of timeline we are talking about.

EDIT2: One more before I go to bed. If it were the way you say, the time turner would be useless for Hermione. She got it to be able to be on more classes at the same time. If it were the way you say, she would go to the class A, go back and go to the class B afterwards. She would rewrite history and never visit the A class. Now that would be useless, wouldn't it? She'd still have the knowledge, but she wouldn't be there and she would have no notes (unless she took them with while travelling). The professors would wonder and she would fail for not attending half the classes.

[–]passenger955 0 points1 point ago

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To your EDIT 1: Yes Dumbledore wouldn't have to go back in time the second time, but he wouldn't have to. You see the Dumbledore from the other timeline would have already saved the potters. If this timeline dumbledore went back in time, he would see the other himself saving the potters. he would be looking in from the outside. There is no need for dumbledore to go back in time because they are safe no matter if he goes back in this timeline or not.

To your EDIT 2: good one. i didn't think about hermione and her classes. But that can be explained. Just because you go back in time does not mean that your self in the past simply dissapears. This is evident in the movie where there are two Harrys and two Hermiones. There simply becomes one of each character when the ones that didn't go back in time, finally go back in time. The same thing would happen in my response to your edit 1, but if dumbledore didn't go back in time in the new timeline then there would be two dumbledores. The one from the other timeline would probably lie low because it would be good for everyone.

[–]wolf3r 0 points1 point ago

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That would be true if HP used the other kind of timeline. I really encourage you to watch the movie Back to the Future - it has the exact timeline you describe and all you say would be possible there. Not in HP though. That uses the predestination paradox, that has been mentioned before. To that edit 2... I got that completely wrong, should have thought about it more. The rest remains though. Since HP uses one timeline, you can't create another one.

[–]garethh -5 points-4 points ago

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Ya... he easily could have saved Harry's parents by sending them a note saying 'run away' or something if he had the time turner at the time... but dumbledoor is a dick and knew that if he did Voldemort wouldn't have been near killed by his own attempt to kill Harry.

Why he didn't just get an army of 2 or even 50 of himselves with the time turner and go and kill Voldemort is... well... I guess.. he thought it wouldn't be as classy as this 18 year struggle for power??

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]passenger955 -1 points0 points ago

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Yes but since he did go back the first time a new timeline or Universe has been created. He wouldn't have to go back in time the second time because the other timeline Dumbledore already did. The parents are safe. I explained this better in a post above this.

[–]dejust 0 points1 point ago

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As established in Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, Dumbledore is a crazy wizard who believes the world runs on clichés.

[–]WarJunkie 0 points1 point ago

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Dumbledore, y u no use time turner to save Harry's Parents?

[–]letelenny 2 points3 points ago

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He didn't know they were going to die until they were dead.

[–]SimilarImage 18 points19 points ago

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Age User Title Reddit Cmnt Points
1 day GrayFeathers Dumbledore Logic here 1 2
1 month elephanavi Scum bag Dumbledore /r/pics 0 -3

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[–]JBu92 4 points5 points ago

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  1. it would create a paradox.
  2. sitting there turning the damned thing for enough hours to go back the 11 years (at a minimum)... that's 96426 turns (one for each hour). at 100RPM (pretty damned fast to spin by hand) it'd take 16 hours of turning.

[–]jspegele 5 points6 points ago

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Couldn't he just use magic to turn it?

[–]Chronophilia 0 points1 point ago

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Probably. Dunno if that spell is ever shown in the books though; I can't imagine it's very useful.

And maybe they have other kinds of time machine, that aren't hourglass-shaped or that take you back in time in larger increments?

[–]Ghepip -3 points-2 points ago

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No, the time turner does not work like that. It needs human input and the magic of the time turner is powered by "human"

[–]The0 2 points3 points ago

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Yeah, because an orphan who never met his parents and has longed to feel their touch just once his whole life would scoff at the idea of spending the time equivalent of a USA Law and Order marathon to bring them back.

Your first point is still valid, I suppose, but did you really have to stretch that far to create a second point just so you could make it a list?

[–]JBu92 -1 points0 points ago

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no, the first point stands alone. However, I felt the need to make a point that involved not just simple logic, but actual elements of the harry potter universe.

[–]n1i2e3 4 points5 points ago

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No book shall mess with time. Its just... wrong. Possibilites are infinite, entire story ruined. In HP main reason for involving time travel is a students problem to attend all classes... come on!

[–]Chronophilia 3 points4 points ago

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I'd say you can do it right, but time travel generally has to be either the focus of the entire story or not exist at all.

It takes up a lot of story space just establishing what the laws of time travel are in any given universe: can you change history at all, are alternate histories considered less important than the "real" history, is there a risk of the end of the universe or similar Bad ShitTM if you screw it up, how if at all does it interact with any other magic or superpowers in the setting, and are there any extra rules about not touching your past self or something like that?

Then you have to explain why you cannot simply go back in time and prevent the whole situation you're in before it happened, or alternately have the characters actually try this (and either fail or succeed). If the characters use time travel to solve all their problems then the situation will generally get complicated, and if they don't the audience will say "well why didn't they just use the Cosmic Undo Button and give it another try?".

You can tell a story with all that, I'm not saying you can't. You can even make it a good story. But you can't spend all that effort introducing time travel and then just make it something that gets used once and then forgotten about.

[–]n1i2e3 -1 points0 points ago

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We, human beings, cannot comprehend time turning back. No set set of rules can change it. Sooner or later you gonna trip and your story fails, holes appear and entire book has a weak spot.

On the other hand... time slowing down or speeding up is an issue that can be used well. Its something we understand, something that happens, we could just twist it a little and boom bullettime! Boom slow motion fight scenes! Etc etc, fits, makes sense, we are okay with it.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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I remember being so excited by the idea that the guy who casts the stag patronus across the lake was Harry's dad, and then so disappointed when we find out he's still dead. The idea it was Harry from the future was so cool though, almost like he's becoming his dad. Man the Prisoner of Azkaban is freaking awesome, it's amazing how involved I was with the characters

[–]AbsurdWebLingo 2 points3 points ago

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It's a fixed point in time.

[–]dakdestructo 1 point2 points ago

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Needs more upvotes

[–]derpstache 1 point2 points ago

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXZMvgFoqX0

[–]JCDevil 0 points1 point ago

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You are my favorite person.

[–]imgur-mirror-bot 1 point2 points ago

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Imgur mirror - upload page
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[–]jewchbag 4 points5 points ago

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This is a repost. Downvote for you sir.

[–]Xenocide1993 0 points1 point ago

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haters gonna hate Jewchbag, upvote for the recognition that this has been posted a million times. Come at me reddit!

[–]jreddingr 0 points1 point ago

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Came, and left.

[–]theblackcrayon 1 point2 points ago

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wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey.

[–]passenger955 0 points1 point ago

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Relevant

[–]TheDenseWall -2 points-1 points ago

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Everytime this pops up I have to post this, its called the predestination paradox

[–]GrayFeathers 0 points1 point ago

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http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/qdcfv/dumbledore_logic/ ಠ_ಠ

[–]LuTheLunatic 0 points1 point ago

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In the book the executioner always chopped a pumpkin. Buckbeak was never killed.

[–]RTurneron -1 points0 points ago

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Relevant

[–]Tretyal -1 points0 points ago

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The reason the Time turner works is because they already were having to been going to do that, which is why they couldn't not use the Time Turner to save Buckbeak.

[–]RuneOclave -2 points-1 points ago

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This is getting really old. Have seriously seen this 5 times in the past couple of days between here, Advice Animals, and /r/harrypotter.

[–]yemd -2 points-1 points ago

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Nice repost.

[–]Face-Plant -2 points-1 points ago

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Repost.

[–]Marshmellowx47 -2 points-1 points ago

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REPOST!!!!!!

[–]sethboy67 -2 points-1 points ago

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All of the time turners were destroyed in the 5th book dumbass.

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