Satan: more powerful than God.

ClockworkINTP · 5 months

Actually, I think the idea Christians have is that God wants people to come to him of their own free will. Granted, this 'free will' concept is kind of spoiled by the promise/threat of heaven/hell. Thoughts?

ljuk · 5 months

Just as a side note:

Writing like THIS or similar is annoying as HELL to read.

SimilarImage · 5 months

Age	User	Title	Reddit	Cmnt	Points
3 months	Fappenstance	I made something for you, r/atheism. Something I've thought about for a while.	here	430	815
10 hours	nikm8	Satan: more powerful than God	here	0	1

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CptGeech · 5 months

I love the wiki link placed nicely in the middle of the rest of the links.

joeblessyou · 5 months

That was hard to read

xurcomm · 5 months

If we're going to be all logical and what not, Satan actually outsmarted Man and God can't interfere because He's playing by a specific set of rules. God could theoretically just send everyone to Heaven or change the rules for entrance or make everyone worship Him or any number of other things. But, because God is playing by a specific set of rules that Satan doesn't care about Satan has more leeway in what he can do.

It's really not much different than the Joker exploiting Batman's prohibition against murder and continuously escaping to commit crime again.

Basing a criticism of a religion on a incorrect generalization isn't really the best to defeat religion. It also glorifies incomplete understanding and poor logic. The entire line of reasoning in the original post is defeated by a rudimentary understanding of the Book of Job.

I hope /r/atheism has better plans for taking down religion. Otherwise, they only way we're winning anything is due to the entropy of religion rather than any sort of enlightenment on the part of atheists.

mrplatypusthe42nd · 5 months

for the record, genesis says it was the serpent, never mentioning satan. so, god got owned by a snake. that he made. yeah.

beebopcola · 5 months

I'm new to the community, so how does this contribute to Atheism?

Cpt_ZappBrannigan · 5 months

i've seen this picture before... it's snarky, and in regards to the overall conclusion it tries to draw, is incorrect. technically god created satan - satan was and still (technically) is an angel. satan was cast into hell specifically for the reason that he was not more powerful than god, and he thought he was.

satan tried to take on god in heaven to become the new ruler; god said, "dude just how stupid are you? bitch, I made you." and cast him into the fiery pits of hell.

jaxioni · 5 months

But God is more badass - he drowns pretty much everything on the planet when he gets mad. Would not want to mess with that guy if I was Satan.

DrSeRRoD · 5 months

If there is any doubt: Satan vs. Jesus Boxing Match

qua_omsa_lajeeone · 5 months

Here is the theological answer, not that any of you care:

Article 1. Whether the devil is directly the cause of man's sinning?

Objection 1. It would seem that the devil is directly the cause of man's sinning. For sin consists directly in an act of the appetite. Now Augustine says (De Trin. iv, 12) that "the devil inspires his friends with evil desires"; and Bede, commenting on Acts 5:3, says that the devil "draws the mind to evil desires"; and Isidore says (De Summo Bono ii, 41; iii, 5) that the devil "fills men's hearts with secret lusts." Therefore the devil is directly the cause of sin.

Objection 2. Further, Jerome says (Contra Jovin. ii, 2) that "as God is the perfecter of good, so is the devil the perfecter of evil." But God is directly the cause of our good. Therefore the devil is directly the cause of our sins.

Objection 3. Further, the Philosopher says in a chapter of the Eudemein Ethics (vii, 18): "There must needs be some extrinsic principle of human counsel." Now human counsel is not only about good things but also about evil things. Therefore, as God moves man to take good counsel, and so is the cause of good, so the devil moves him to take evil counsel, and consequently is directly the cause of sin.

On the contrary, Augustine proves (De Lib. Arb. i, 11) that "nothing else than his own will makes man's mind the slave of his desire." Now man does not become a slave to his desires, except through sin. Therefore the cause of sin cannot be the devil, but man's own will alone.

I answer that, Sin is an action: so that a thing can be directly the cause of sin, in the same way as anyone is directly the cause of an action; and this can only happen by moving that action's proper principle to act. Now the proper principle of a sinful action is the will, since every sin is voluntary. Consequently nothing can be directly the cause of sin, except that which can move the will to act.

Now the will, as stated above (9, A3,4,6), can be moved by two things: first by its object, inasmuch as the apprehended appetible is said to move the appetite: secondly by that agent which moves the will inwardly to will, and this is no other than the will itself, or God, as was shown above (9, A3,4,6). Now God cannot be the cause of sin, as stated above (Question 79, Article 1). Therefore it follows that in this respect, a man's will alone is directly the cause of his sin.

As regards the object, a thing may be understood as moving the will in three ways. First, the object itself which is proposed to the will: thus we say that food arouses man's desire to eat. Secondly, he that proposes or offers this object. Thirdly, he that persuades the will that the object proposed has an aspect of good, because he also, in a fashion, offers the will its proper object, which is a real or apparent good of reason. Accordingly, in the first way the sensible things, which approach from without, move a man's will to sin. In the second and third ways, either the devil or a man may incite to sin, either by offering an object of appetite to the senses, or by persuading the reason. But in none of these three ways can anything be the direct cause of sin, because the will is not, of necessity, moved by any object except the last end, as stated above (10, A1,2). Consequently neither the thing offered from without, nor he that proposes it, nor he that persuades, is the sufficient cause of sin. Therefore it follows that the devil is a cause of sin, neither directly nor sufficiently, but only by persuasion, or by proposing the object of appetite.

Reply to Objection 1. All these, and other like authorities, if we meet with them, are to be understood as denoting that the devil induces man to affection for a sin, either by suggesting to him, or by offering him objects of appetite.

Reply to Objection 2. This comparison is true in so far as the devil is somewhat the cause of our sins, even as God is in a certain way the cause of our good actions, but does not extend to the mode of causation: for God causes good things in us by moving the will inwardly, whereas the devil cannot move us in this way.

Reply to Objection 3. God is the universal principle of all inward movements of man; but that the human will be determined to an evil counsel, is directly due to the human will, and to the devil as persuading or offering the object of appetite.

Article 4. Whether all the sins of men are due to the devil's suggestion?

Objection 1. It would seem that all the sins of men are due to the devil's suggestion. For Dionysius says (Div. Nom. iv) that the "crowd of demons are the cause of all evils, both to themselves and to others."

Objection 2. Further, whoever sins mortally, becomes the slave of the devil, according to John 8:34: "Whosoever committeth sin is the slave [Douay: 'servant'] of sin." Now "by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave" (2 Peter 2:19). Therefore whoever commits a sin, has been overcome by the devil.

Objection 3. Further, Gregory says (Moral. iv, 10) the sin of the devil is irreparable, because he sinned at no other's suggestion. Therefore, if any men were to sin of their own free-will and without suggestion from any other, their sin would be irremediable: which is clearly false. Therefore all the sins of men are due to the devil's suggestion.

On the contrary, It is written (De Eccl. Dogm. lxxxii): "Not all our evil thoughts are incited by the devil; sometimes they are due to a movement of the free-will."

I answer that, the devil is the occasional and indirect cause of all our sins, in so far as he induced the first man to sin, by reason of whose sin human nature is so infected, that we are all prone to sin: even as the burning of wood might be imputed to the man who dried the wood so as to make it easily inflammable. He is not, however, the direct cause of all the sins of men, as though each were the result of his suggestion. Origen proves this (Peri Archon iii, 2) from the fact that even if the devil were no more, men would still have the desire for food, sexual pleasures and the like; which desire might be inordinate, unless it were subordinate to reason, a matter that is subject to the free-will.

Reply to Objection 1. The crowd of demons are the cause of all our evils, as regards their original cause, as stated.

Reply to Objection 2. A man becomes another's slave not only by being overcome by him, but also by subjecting himself to him spontaneously: it is thus that one who sins of his own accord, becomes the slave of the devil.

Reply to Objection 3. The devil's sin was irremediable, not only because he sinned without another's suggestion; but also because he was not already prone to sin, on account of any previous sin; which can be said of no sin of man.

killgore9998 · 5 months

Are atheists still getting a sense of accomplishment out of proving that the Bible is internally inconsistent?

eckmann88 · 5 months

Stephen Colbert: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrub6yP2O01qz8x31o1_500.jpg

Swayko · 5 months

The bible can be interpreted so many different ways.

WookieeArmy · 5 months

Great! Now all the religious people are going to think redditors are Satan worshipers instead of just baby eating Atheists.

5 months

[deleted]

DayspringMetaphysics · 5 months

its nice to see some original content that is about atheism... oh wait, this is another mindless repost...oh wait, this has nothing to do with atheism. Oh well, atheist hivemind upvote!!!!

DeFex · 5 months

You know who else is going to hell?

People who mix fonts and text sizes.

davidvstheworld · 5 months

Yeah, not really what we believe. True story.

zergl1ng · 5 months

TBH, this interpretation is a bit forced; from a purely literary PoV it can be argued that it is not God who requires all this time and effort, but Man.

Man ate from the tree, Man is the one given ample time, Man is the one who rejects God.

-- The Devil's Advocate (and by Devil I really mean Yahweh)

zumacroom · 5 months

I'm just going to provide counter arguments to each statement in sequential order:

1.Satan doesn't hold more power than God, or even anyone: he is the corruption of all things good. Satan was a created (angelic) being that once resided in Heaven. He fell from grace because his pride and selfish ambitions led him to his destruction and removal from God's presence. (Isaiah 14:12-20) Mind you, Satan (Lucifer) was CREATED by God, with free will like us. (This is getting into the study of Angels and Demons, something I'm not very informed in, sorry.)

Because of the original sin, man has FALLEN FROM GRACE.(Genesis 3) This doesn't mean "man will go to hell" it means any fallen man (all of us) that doesn't accept the gift salvation provided by Christ's sacrifice will not spend eternity in his presence after death.(Romans 10:9-10) This didn't blindside God because He is omniscient (Job 37:16)
God does desire ALL MEN TO BE SAVED. God hates SIN, not people who sin. However, He despises those that are sinners; living a life of sin. (Psalm 11:5, and many others)

4.God didn't spend "several thousands of years" developing a plan. (2 Peter 3:8-9) Simply because God created time, and all of existence. How can the creator of time be bound and described by it? There is a beginning of time, and an end of time; God is outside of that.(Revelation 22:13) And since God is omniscient, as previously stated, He knew what was going to happen all along. This does bring the question of "Why didn't He create us to not do that?" come about. And my answer to that question is that if God created us ONLY to love Him, how are we free? If we are not free to choose to love Him or to not, there is not glory.

God gave up his only son, who died on the cross as a human sacrifice for our sins. (John 3:16) He took the form of both man and God (Mark 1:1, John 9:35-37) Not half and half, both fully God and man. This purpose was to bear the weight of sin on his shoulders, to die in place of them (bear the full effect of sin) and then be resurrected from the dead (to conquer death).(John 20:1-10)
Satan only "accomplished" what was so easy to do: to lie and deceive minds that have been created to listen or reject God if they so chose. They listened to Satan's deceit because of how enticing it was; he is the master of deceit. So they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which was THE ONLY THING God instructed them not to do. And when it's said "it isn't working", how is this supported? How is the most persecuted group in all of existence that has maintained a CONSTANT growth through death, persecution, and torment be an indication that the MESSAGE of Jesus Christ isn't being accepted and embraced?
Yes, I actually believe the entire story of the FALL, the entire story of REDEMPTION, the entire story of CREATION, and the entire story of MANKIND.
Finally, being able to deceive gullible minds; minds willing and open to hear opposition is not an indication of greater power than the Creator of said minds. It is an indication that free beings are not perfect. We were not created to be perfect, we can only be perfect through the forgiveness of sin.(1 John 1:9)

I was created in the likeness of God and was born into a life of sin. I lived a life of sin until I accepted forgiveness at the age of 15 upon my own decision. I have since lived a life desiring to honor and glorify Jesus Christ. I sin, I lie, I cheat, and I do things out of selfish ambition because I am not perfect. My sin is not dismissible, but it is forgivable. I live a life in forgiveness, and I lead a life knowing my purpose and reason for existence. I know where I'm going after death and I know why. I know what I chose, why I chose it, and why I believe it. I'm not brainwashed, I'm not stupid, I'm not a product of nurture. I once lived a life against God, and now I live a life for God.

I'll try to answer questions, if anyone has any.

typtyphus · 5 months

God had to kill himself to patch, not even fix, the damage that Satan caused.

TheDisillusionist · 5 months

I'd love a transcript of the events.

"Um God, don't shoot the messenger here, but Lucifer totally went down to the garden and talked the humans into fucking it all up."

"Damn it! I knew this shit would happen; I fucking knew it! I was totally planning all of this in the break room the other day, I turn around and guess who was right behind me getting a Pepsi and looking over my shoulder? Fucking Lucifer."

"He is pretty charismatic, sir."

"Fuck him! Thousands of years down the tubes. These fuckers are going to pay. Everyone goes down. Change the locks, that tricky fucker ain't allowed in here. Adam and Eve? Dead...slowly. You know what? Fuck that snake, too. No legs for you."

"Seems excessive, sir. You kind of made them unable to understand consequences or good and evil."

"Excessive, my ass! I'm going to have to make a mini-me to go down there and get killed to clean this shit up!"

SaintLonginus · 5 months

As someone with advanced degrees in Catholic theology, this is just stupid. I have absolutely no problem debating atheists. In fact, in so many ways, I respect your average atheist much more than your average Christian, but you have to get Christianity right before making something like this.

While some of these claims are true, they are so disjointed and divorced from basic tenets of Christianity that the entire thing just looks silly.

If you think Christianity is bunk than say so, but don't act like intelligent Christians aren't at least smart enough to see this line of thought and leave the Church. Christianity wouldn't have spread to even 1/100th of its current size and influence if this line of thinking were the whole story.

mcaffrey · 5 months

With billions of Christians and thousands of different interpretations of scripture, why does r/atheism think it can tell all the Christians what they actually believe?

SouthernMan85 · 5 months

Troll post. Designed to do nothing more than upset Christians.

TheTrueMexican · 5 months

"Is the dark side stronger?"

"No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

JPrufrock13 · 5 months

Relies on a deliberate misunderstanding of Christian theology. Satan fulfills a necessary role by providing man with choice, nothing more nor less.

fromkentucky · 5 months

If it had stopped at "a single conversation" it would not have seemed juvenile and condescending, which means I could share it with Christians that I respect in the hopes of planting a seed or initiating conversation. Now, however, because whomever created this just HAD to throw in those classless jabs, it just another trite, childish image.

Soronir · 5 months

His true name was Lucifer. It means "bringer of light." One who enlightens. The main antagonist of Christian mythology is enlightenment itself. And you wonder why they're so anti-intellectual.

Roflkopt3r · 5 months

Temptation is making the worse choice because it's of less resistance. Satan has always been depicted as the personification of temptation. By figuring out what this picture shows you basically just show how good the bible explains certain things in a symbolic way, in this case the balance between acting on instinct (the easier way) and acting morally (which takes effort and setbacks).

I am not saying this in an effort to defend christianity or anything, but as an atheist myself. Intentionally only seeing one side of the whole is not something a conscious atheism should do. Condemnation without comprehension doesn't lead to anything but useless skirmish and is ultimately the source of the acts that are used as the biggest accusations against the church here, such as the crusades and religious hatred.

VLDT · 5 months

This should probably say "Christian Fundamentalists". All generalizations are bad.

jminuse · 5 months

This doesn't work, even given all its axioms.

Take an example. Most people prefer a Big Mac over a vegetable dish by a master chef. Does this make the Big Mac better? Or does it just prove that, given free will, people will make the wrong choices? We could genetically engineer people not to like Big Macs, but they still wouldn't be choosing vegetables; it would be coercion.

As to the axioms: many Christians believe that most, if not all humans (and possibly the devil himself) will be saved. The view that most people will go to hell is a useful tool for missionaries, but not theologians.

peetor · 5 months

just read Job

Cosman246 · 5 months

Or maybe the Christian God just has a fetish for complexity

ACE_C0ND0R · 5 months

Thor can also beat Zeus in an arm wrestling match.

Puffertle · 5 months

Soooo...

You took a few select Bible passages, and arranged them into your own story.. how cute!

I wouldnt say all Christians believe this though. That would be fucking dumb.

Miguel8 · 5 months

This premise is false because it fails to take into account the mortality of man. Man's failings (their sin after eating from the Tree) has nothing to do with God or his powers.

NovusHomoSapiens · 5 months

If you are going to criticize something you should get your facts straight. I'm no believer, nor am I a bible scholar, but afaik God created Satan by sending an angel to hell. Before they changed the story to the aforementioned, Satan was actually appointed by God to test "our" faith. So really God is more powerful than Satan and what is presented here is an incorrect depiction of Christianity. Obviously this does not justify Christian belief, nor do I aim to.

mktang · 5 months

reasoning with blindly religious people? you're just being unreasonable.

kingsway8605 · 5 months

Not going to use citations because reading the Bible is like having a penis jammed into my brain, but from what I learned in Catholic school, I believe the Bible actually explicitly says that Satan (and all of the angels for that matter) are inferior to God but that we are created in God's image. Putting the two together implies that we are actually more powerful than Satan.

Surprise, the Bible contradicts itself.

j1mmie · 5 months

This is a stupid assertion with a poorly articulated argument. Any Christian will easily counter it by saying "It's all a part of God's plan," implying that God is far more powerful than we can comprehend.

And why not? In Paradise Lost, I believe God allowed Satan to exist simply to tempt us, so that by resisting his temptation, we may achieve greater glory and ultimately earn our place in Heaven.

Is this what the Bible meant to tell us? Who knows. None of the authors are here to ask. So arguing about it is moot.

Attacking the subtleties of a dogma looks bad for Atheism. We should focus on the harmful impact of religion, and reject it on principal, rather than dissecting something we will never fully understand.

Berserkenstein · 5 months

This really belongs in r/satanism

Cipressa · 5 months

Really, the difference is that God is operating under a constraint about which the Devil has no qualms - God doesn't interfere with free will. Satan is much more willing to intervene directly than God is. Biblically speaking, that is. Just look at the story of Job - God makes a bet with the Devil that Job will stay loyal to God, even through the worst times, and gives Satan a free hand to interfere in Job's life as he pleased, while God sits back to see what happens. God does not intervene - and because of free will, in spite of God's theoretical omnipotence, He can't really be sure that Job won't turn away from Him. The Devil got to interfere all he wanted - he even got to talk to Job through an intermediary, actively trying to convince him to turn from his faith, not just passively destroying Job's life. God said nothing to Job through everything. The Devil only has more power because people let him have it - God won't interfere.

tencircles · 5 months

This is just silly. The simple rejoinder to this is that "it was all part of God's unknowable plan." I find myself disappointed at /r/atheism's purile attempts at being witty or pithy and "settle the matter once and for all." Why not post something enlightening or thought provoking instead of asinine school-yard assertions which take the bible as read and pick apart the most trivial of points like a fool with a tack hammer flailing away at the base of a skyscraper. I consider myself an atheist, but this kind of trash is really nothing but meaningless fluff to serve as a source for arrogant grins and a sense of false superiority over our theistic counterparts.

cozyswisher · 5 months

I hear the apologists: God hasn't won yet. My response will still be "Is it worth it if all those people have gone, are going, and will go to hell? Or is a stay in hell a temporary thing? Maybe this will make God less shitty. Still, God doesn't sound that great or praiseworthy to me."

crshbndct · 5 months

I see this picture and I think: "Yes BSD is better in a lot of ways than Linux. But to be fair Linux has a greater adoption rate."

needsmorerage · 5 months

I find this kind of amusing, since if you really believed (or at least studied) what the bible teaches, you would know that the things satan accomplished: God aloud him to accomplish. (For the same reason that he let man choose to sin.) He wants every person and creature to have the ability to CHOOSE to obey and believe... Oh and you forgot to add to that list that (according to the bible) God made everything including satan himself. That should be an automatic win on God's part.

Still, it's an interesting point you've made.

Knight57 · 5 months

The bible actually states, all who do not hear about christ will go to heaven. So if someone has never heard about Jesus or his story, they will find salvation.. not eternal damnation. Bible, read it before you try and make fun of it.

[deleted] · 5 months

Mormonism actually has a lot of answers to all of these points. /r/atheism probably isn't the right forum to point this out, but I'll give it a shot:

Because of original sin, man will go to hell

Mormons believe that Adam's Fall was necessary. While it may have been prompted by the devil, Adam and Eve actually made the correct choice to partake of the fruit because there was no ability to progress or have children prior to that act. Basically, God used Satan to get what he wanted.

In an effort to save man from death and hell, God spent several thousand years developing a plan.

Mormons believe that prior to the creation of the world, everyone lived as spirits. God presented his plan to the spirits, which included both the fall of Adam and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

But this plan only provides salvation for a lucky fraction of all mankind who hear and believe.

Mormons believe that those who did not have the chance to hear about Jesus Christ and be baptized while on earth will have the opportunity to hear about Jesus Christ and be baptized after they die in the "spirit world", a waiting place between death and the resurrection.

I got to hand it to Mormons: they have some crazy history, but their doctrine is pretty sound ... well, as sound as a religion's doctrine could possibly be, anyway.

EDIT: Source: http://www.mormon.org, http://www.fairlds.org, bunch of Mormon friends

EDIT 2: I accidentally a word.

Macscroge · 5 months

Seeing as this has nothing to do with atheism, I propose we start r/anti-theism for the anti religious posts.

Treyrs20o9 · 5 months

Is it weird that I read that as, Why Santorum is more powerful than God?

notatreehugger · 5 months

how can one imaginary being be more powerful than another imaginary being...?

saucemoney · 5 months

Without reading the scripture passages, this graphic makes absolutely no sense.

Brittcom · 5 months

So that's a pretty gross over generalization of what Christians believe... Being that I am Christian (catholic) and know a whole lot of other various Christians and only the couple really crazy one's think this I'd say you're basing you opinion on the minority... Seems a little bigoted...

sheldoncary · 5 months

The sheer amount of ignorance contained in this picture is so incredibly exponential it is almost unfathomable. It is sad to see what has become of the atheist community of Reddit. Concerned not on matters of the existence of a logos, but much more concerned on the prevalence of power of the disbelieved logos' enemy. Legitimate, practicing atheists would be ashamed.

TheCrool · 5 months

For those of you whom are interested in what many Christians actually believe, I can debunk this with the beliefs of the sect with which I am most familiar: Mormons. I probably won't include many sources since that takes additional time, but I can do it upon request if needed.

The scriptures make no mention of "original sin." That is almost a strictly catholic belief that newborn babies are sinners because of Adam and Eve. Their decision to eat the fruit gave them the god-like knowledge of morality: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..." (Genesis 3:22). This was by no means against God's plan to redeem humanity. Even thought Adam and Eve were perfect beings without sin, they were like children and unable to progress without first opening the way to understand right/wrong and therefore be able to make conscious moral decisions during their lives.

There were not even able to conceive children before eating the fruit due to their innocence and this lack of knowledge. They were perfect creations of God and couldn't even die (while the rest of humanity are essentially creation of man due to human conception and are therefore mortal). Their immortality can be inferred in Genesis 2:17 when God warms them about eating the fruit: "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Now, it is evident that they didn't die immediately because they later went on to live hundreds of years and have tons of children. But merely meant that they were thereafter subject to physical death. There spiritual death came in the form of being cast out of the garden, out of the presence of God. Mind you, there were before able to speak to God directly and he was probably visible to them.

That being said, men are only accountable for their own sins and not that of their parents. However, God can punish children for their parents' sins, but the children aren't made sinners because of it. Just like how all humanity is forced to labor, undergo trials of life, and are unable to be in God's presence (nobody can see him) because their ancestors (Adam and Eve) made a "bad" choice. But babies aren't born with sin, they merely bring sin upon themselves at some point in their lives.

Furthermore, as already mentioned, without the serpent corrupting Adam and Eve, humanity would not exist today. Adam and Eve would have forever remained in the labor-free perfect garden without a care in the world. Without humanity living upon the earth, nobody would be able to be saved. So it would be fallacious to say that Satan got the upper-hand by introducing sin to mankind and condemning some to hell, because he also introduced many to heaven by doing this.

In the end, everyone is accountable for their own sins. God and just, but be is also merciful. God had to send Jesus to experience life in the flesh, as a man, so that he could justly defend humanity during the Final Judgement.

TL;DR Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit in order to bring humanity into the world to even be saved in the first place. Satan acted according to God's plan to save humanity.

eaglepgc · 5 months

This may be problematic for most Christian faiths, but not Mormons. 1. We believe that the fall of Adam and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ were part of God's plan

We believe that after we die anyone who did not receive the Gospel will be taught and have an opportunity to accept it. Hence why we believe in baptism in proxy of the dead.

Cbarnes78 · 5 months

Christians do believe that the power Satan is more than God. Is it not easier to be evil than it is to be good? If a person has an issue with someone, they could easily kill them and not have that issue from that point on. But they dont because they have moral fiber, something that takes restraint and many years of growth and development. THAT is the power of God. The power of choice and the fruits that come from those positive choices. I by no means am someone who is a "bible thumper". I almost never go to church and I almost never read my bible. But unlike people who make posts like this and those on the other side of the spectrum I see what the REAL purpose of religion is. To make you a good person. If you focus on that, whatever religion you follow or what purpose you have for your life, at the end of the day you'll still be a good person.

lxr · 5 months

basically the fact that Christians think I'm going to hell causes one of two problems: 1. Satan is causing me to go to hell, meaning he is more powerful than God. 2. I am responsible for going to hell, which means I am more powerful than God. ...?

[deleted] · 5 months

"So I say to them, don't eat that fruit. And the first thing that bitch does is eat the fruit"

nyk0 · 5 months

This guy is really good at reading the Bible in the wrong order. Nice.

P33ge · 5 months

Id just like to point out that that isn't what original sin is. We condemn ourselves to hell, Satan was a victim of this as well. Satan didn't create sin.

doctorfrog · 5 months

I don't have any real stakes in this argument, but isn't it always easier to tear down something than build it up? Isn't it easier to demolish a building than construct one? Isn't it easier to end a life than to build one up? Does this make the destroyer more powerful than the builder?

chopperdave47 · 5 months

shit like this is just yet another reason r/atheism is going down the drain. 14 year old kids arguing about semantics. and these aren't even good semantics.

Chrisklingler · 5 months

Mormons believe the opposite to about every single one of these statements

Odusei · 5 months

I wonder if r/Christianity is as obsessed with Atheists as r/Atheism is with Christians. I swear, you guys are like Jesus's ex-boyfriends, and all you do is talk about how much he sucked. Get on with your lives.

brcreeker · 5 months

Here's a conversation I had with a fundie friend of mine. Conversation started out with him talking about how crazy Mormons are for believing what they do. Sorry, don't have time to make a rage comic.

Me: Why do you think you are any more right than they are?

Him: Because I read the Bible, which is the true word of God.

Me: Oooor, it was written by a bunch of men thousands of years ago who had nowhere near the scientific understanding of the universe that we have today.

Him: So are you saying that you don't believe in God or the Bible?

Me: I find it difficult to believe, or even better, love a deity that according to your Bible could stop all the pain and suffering in the world at any point, yet never chooses to do so. Much less one that damns people to eternal torment for simply acting upon human nature.

Him: Yes, but human nature is sinful, which is why he sent Christ to die for us.

Me: Okay, but why did he create evil, and or sin in the first place.

Him: God didn't create sin, it's against his nature.

Me: Where did sin come from then?

Him: It originated when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, and ate the fruit of knowledge.

Me: And who was it that tempted them?

Him: Satan...

Me: Who is evil.

Him: Yes.

Me: And who created Satan.

Him: Uh...

........................................

...I'll pray for you.

Me: Okay.

BeastWriter · 5 months

Oh, dear, seems like people are confusing Paradise Lost with The Bible again.

Satan isn't in Hell because HE made it. GOD made Hell to put Satan is.

And God leaves salvation up to us. It's our job. The reason why so many people go to Hell is because sinning is easy, being a devout Christian isn't. Just ask the Amish.

manlymike · 5 months

i think someone was molested by a priest as a child


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