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all 127 comments

[–]sudo_reddit 120 points121 points ago

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He may have said that, but he was probably not an atheist, he made numerous references to God and the bible, he just never officially joined a church. Also, you spelled atheist wrong.

[–][deleted] 27 points28 points ago

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Yea, this subreddit is way to quick to label someone from history an atheist just for a quote criticizing the church, or this for example.

criticizing the church/religion/christianity doesn't necessarily mean the person is an atheist fyi.

[–]Alexthegreatbelgian 22 points23 points ago

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criticizing the church/religion/christianity doesn't necessarily mean the person is an atheist fyi.

Reminds me of that rabbi who thought Judaism needed some changes some 2000 years ago.

[–]TedKord 7 points8 points ago

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You truly are a great Belgian.

[–]runtotheabyss 2 points3 points ago

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I think it's a good thing to show that historical figures developed their own sense of morality. Not that it makes them an atheist, but some little christian kid might read that and realize that morality doesn't necessarily have to come from the Bible. It's a small step but an important one, especially if we are to cohabitate.

[–]swampskater 1 point2 points ago

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That actually annoys me. It's insane the number of historical people that /r/atheism debaptizes just like the Mormon Church.

[–]closingcircuits 1 point2 points ago

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Exactly. Couldn't have been put any better. It's one thing to celebrate those who came forward and spoke out explicitly, but to try and create these fairy tales that every celebrated historical figure was miraculously ahead their time in being atheist, it just makes us look like we're grasping at anything we can, just like the religious people do. OP is probably so down on how badly this backfired haha

[–]HollowNinja -1 points0 points ago

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This subreddit is a giant circlejerk. What do you expect?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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yea man i know what you mean! like /r/nfl all they talk about and agree upon is how awesome football is!

[–]HellHaven 1 point2 points ago

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He wasn't an atheist in any way, shape or form.

What OP is doing is essentially what the Mormons did with those dead Jews.

[–]TheDoktorIsIn 0 points1 point ago

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He was religious, actually, however he wasn't a member of the church. I prefer to think he was just a moral person.

[–]colossus16 0 points1 point ago

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Thank you. Way I heard it, he was an agnostic.

[–]TriangleMan 1 point2 points ago

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An agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist?

[–]ShandoRaynor -1 points0 points ago

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There are more than two options, you know. In fact there are at least six types of agnosticism listed on the wikipedia page for Agnosticism.

[–]luqavi 4 points5 points ago

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In this case, however, I believe he was an agnostic theist.

[–]d1nt_ban_me_again 1 point2 points ago

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ABRAHAM Lincoln was most definitely NOT an atheist...

FUCKING GETTYSBURG ADDRESS.

"...that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

I'm an agnostic. Reddit atheists have got to be the most illogical and illiterate bunch around.

[–]godlessatheist 3 points4 points ago*

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I have to agree with you a lot of these Redditors call someone an atheist without even doing any research.

"Hey look guys he's not a Christian that mean's he's an atheist..."

Ever heard of Deism guys???

"William Herndon, Lincoln's law partner, stated that Lincoln admired deists Thomas Paine and Voltaire, and had read and knew of Charles Darwin before most. "He soon grew into a belief of a universal law, evolution, and from this he never deviated."

Also he was labeled a Deist by John Adams.

[–]d1nt_ban_me_again -1 points0 points ago

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There is very little doubt abraham lincoln was a christian. Not a christian in a missionary zealot lunatic sense, but nonetheless a christian. The guy went to church, read the bible "religiously" and attributed many things to the power of god and SAVIOR...

That is not to say he wasn't sympathetic to deism or didn't admire thomas paine. Maybe a christian with deistic leanings is a better description.

[–]godlessatheist -1 points0 points ago*

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If he was a Christian then he could of done this for political reasons especially when the majority of the public would feel more comfortable with biblical allusions and biblical references in a speech. I don't particularly think he was a Christian but if he was he would have been borderline Deistic. Also I don't think he ever joined a church but he did have a bible. (Obama used it to swear into office)

Of course we can't be sure so I won't claim to know with absolute certainty.

[–]d1nt_ban_me_again -2 points-1 points ago

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If he was a Christian then he could of done this for political reasons especially when the majority of the public would

"could of" != "could've". He didn't use christianity to get elected or for political. Christianity was a liability for him. Many people were upset that he didn't belong to a church/denomination.

Also I don't think he ever joined a church

You don't have to join a church to be christian. That's one of Lincoln's pet peeves, the rivalry between denominations.

but he did have a bible.

Which he read vigorously and quoted/reference in his speeches/writings.

Of course we can't be sure so I won't claim to know with absolute certainty.

He was certainly a theist. Almost everyone was back then. I believe Lincoln definitely questioned religion and christianity in his life, especially when he was younger. But as he grew older, evidence points to him being more religious.

[–]godlessatheist 0 points1 point ago

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I'm not denying he was a theist I'm just stating firmly that he was not an atheist and I'm unsure whether he was a Christian or a Deist. He definitely believed in a higher power. Yes he had a bible that he read but biblical allusions were popular among politicians and writers. For instance in Thomas Paine's "Common Sense" Paine used biblical allusions to capture the protestant demographic but he was a prominent Deistic thinker who later wrote "The Age of Reason". Thomas Jefferson also had a bible he read but he edited it to make it suit his Deistic beliefs. Knowing the bible and understanding biblical allusions were both very useful to anyone that wanted to get their views out during this time period.

You don't have to join a church to be christian. That's one of Lincoln's pet peeves, the rivalry between denominations.

You said that Lincoln went to church in your previous comment..

[–]d1nt_ban_me_again -2 points-1 points ago

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For instance in Thomas Paine's "Common Sense" Paine used biblical allusions to capture the protestant demographic but he was a prominent Deistic thinker who later wrote "The Age of Reason".

I know who thomas paine was, I don't need you to tell me what he wrote. Okay? Jesus. Using biblical allusions to advance his deist views is different than using biblical allusions to advance christian views.

You said that Lincoln went to church in your previous comment..

You can go to church ( attend sunday service ) without belonging/joining the church/denomination. I can go to a Presbyterian service ( go to church ) without belong to that church. What a fucking moron.

[–]godlessatheist 0 points1 point ago

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You didn't read what I said did you? "Common Sense" had nothing to do with his Deistic views. It was written to support freedom from British rule. He used biblical allusions so that the average Protestant American would support him!

"What a fucking moron."

Ah yes that's how you have a polite discussion with someone calling them a moron..

[–]Tself 0 points1 point ago

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I'm an agnostic. Reddit atheists have got to be the most illogical and illiterate bunch around.

Just fyi, agnostic is not a belief system, it is a descriptor of a particular type of believe. Just saying you are agnostic makes as much sense as saying, "Well today I saw a blue." You can be an agnostic atheist, agnostic theist, agnostic deist, etc. You can't just an agnostic though, just like how just can't be a blue.

I do definitely agree that Lincoln was not an atheist, though. Just don't try and paint a HUGE crowd on here as illiterate when you yourself are using a term incorrectly.

[–]d1nt_ban_me_again 0 points1 point ago

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Just fyi, agnostic is not a belief system, it is a descriptor of a particular type of believe. Just saying you are agnostic makes as much sense as saying, "Well today I saw a blue."

Listen you fucking cockroach. Go open up a dictionary. I didn't use agnostic as an adjective but as a noun. Learn to read. "I AM AN AGNOSTIC". Not only, learn some fucking grammar. The word you are looking for is "adjective", not descriptor.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/agnostic ag·nos·tic (g-nstk) n. 1. a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

You can't just an agnostic though, just like how just can't be a blue.

I can be blue if I use the sense of meaning "SAD" or if I am a member of the blue man group. Fucking moron.

I do definitely agree that Lincoln was not an atheist, though.

No shit.

Just don't try and paint a HUGE crowd on here as illiterate when you yourself are using a term incorrectly.

Retard, you are the dumb shit that I am talking about. After all I can't be agnostic.

[–]ss5gogetunks -1 points0 points ago

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While you are right that he was not an atheist, that quote does not prove he was not. There are quotes proving his sometimes religiousness, but that is not one.

Also no need to resort to name-calling, there are many reddit atheists who are very intelligent.

[–]d1nt_ban_me_again -2 points-1 points ago

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that quote does not prove he was not

So which atheist god was he referring to?

There are quotes proving his sometimes religiousness, but that is not one.

I'm not even talking about religion. At the theism/atheism level, its clear that lincoln wasn't atheist.

Also no need to resort to name-calling

Stupid morons who use lies to advance their pathetic agenda need to put in their place.

[–]ss5gogetunks 0 points1 point ago

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Just because he mentions a god in a speech to the United States does not mean he is religious.

stupid morons who use lies to advance their pathetic agenda

Notice how when you open up the comments all of the comments are about how he isn't actually an atheist?

Does that look like a community lying to promote their agenda? No. It looks like one mistaken person posting something inaccurate but still of worth, and the rest of the community correcting him.

In the end it is you who is the illogical one, generalizing an entire group based, essentially, on your dislike of them.

[–]Freywin -5 points-4 points ago

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No he didn't. Abe Lincoln probably was the most athy man of his time.

[–]MackLuster77 2 points3 points ago

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You have my upvote for your misunderstood joke.

[–]sudo_reddit 4 points5 points ago

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Relying, as I do, upon the Almighty Power, and encouraged as I am by these resolutions which you have just read, with the support which I receive from Christian men, I shall not hesitate to use all the means at my control to secure the termination of this rebellion, and will hope for success. - Abe Lincoln

Let us diligently apply the means, never doubting that a just God, in his own good time, will give us the rightful result. Abe Lincoln Among others. Not saying he was Christian, but probably not atheist.

[–]MackLuster77 1 point2 points ago

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He was making a joke about the misspelling.

[–]sudo_reddit -1 points0 points ago

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Ahhhhh, I missed it.

[–]AverageDoorknob -3 points-2 points ago

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He said he wasn't a Christian, so he was probably agnostic.

[–]MackLuster77 10 points11 points ago

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The word you're probably looking for is deist, not agnostic.

[–]AverageDoorknob 3 points4 points ago

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Yes, thank you sir.

[–]bambam93 1 point2 points ago

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Many of the founding fathers were deists, which is a belief system that I personally afford more respect to than others, because a deist and and atheist both recognize the importance of individual effort to make the world a better place, and not prayer. Prayer is just too self-contradictory for me to really respect as an alternate opinion.

[–]Bartab 11 points12 points ago

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Agnostic is not the middle point between atheist and theist, it's an entirely different range. Almost everybody, including theists, are agnostic.

[–]nightzirk 5 points6 points ago

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Indeed, any honest person would admit to be being agnostic to some degree.

[–]AnonymousHipopotamus 2 points3 points ago*

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He didn't say that he wasn't Christian, he said that he could not subscribe to any particular Christian church.

"When any church will inscribe over its altar, as its sole qualification for membership, the Savior's condensed statement of the substance of both law and Gospel, 'Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul and thy neighbor as thyself' that church will I join with all my heart and all my soul."

edit: I cannot find the date or specific occasion of this quote, but it is quite widely attributed to him.

[–]TheRedMambo -1 points0 points ago

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Yet, still 600+ upvotes.

Yay r/atheism.

[–]Tself -1 points0 points ago

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It is still a great quote, the title is just silly.

[–]bac8434 23 points24 points ago

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The quote was misattributed to Lincoln by his opponent, Peter Cartwright, during the 1846 Illinois Congressional election. Lincoln personally refuted the statement.

This quote might better explain his thoughts on religion, especially within the political spectrum.

"I do not think I could myself, be brought to support a man for office, whom I knew to be an open enemy of, and scoffer at, religion. Leaving the higher matter of eternal consequences, between him and his Maker, I still do not think any man has the right thus to insult the feelings, and injure the morals, or the community in which he may live."

Best internet-linkable source I could find, but that's a direct quote from the Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln - http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/handbill.htm

So he wasn't strictly Christian, but he also wasn't an atheist. If you actually sit down and read his writings and those of his family, he became gradually more theistic throughout his life, but intentionally never made his religious beliefs a matter of public knowledge. Unlike so many people today, he was opposed to anyone making religion a point of debate.

[–]Supertrample 1 point2 points ago

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I've always thought of him as a deist. That's the closest to atheism most people would get in that day.

[–]Teiresias666 0 points1 point ago

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yes, even some of his closest friends weren't certain of his religious leanings, he preferred not to flaunt the matter.

[–]Tself 0 points1 point ago

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A bit off topic, but I've seen quite a few sources suggesting he might have been homosexual as well. Of course there is no evidence for that, but just many things that sort of pointed to it.

[–]bac8434 0 points1 point ago

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I've heard that statement made a couple of times now, but having read almost all of Lincoln's works, including letters and other correspondence, I feel pretty confident in saying that it's just not true. By most accounts he was happily married. C. A. Tripp wrote the most famous book on the matter, but most historians will tell you that Tripp was just reaching for a controversial theory and that his arguments are really weak. A lot of the speculation comes from the fact that he lived with other men at certain points and even shared beds with them, but that was a really common practice at the time, mostly just because it was practical and even in some cases a necessity for poor bachelors who couldn't afford their own bedrooms. Lincoln also never tried to hide the fact that he did share beds with other men, and brought it up himself a couple of times. If he had ever shared a relationship with any of those men, they would have had plenty of chances to admit to it. Tripp actually claimed to have found the diary of one of Lincoln's old friends who he had lived with that said they had been in a relationship, but it was basically written off right away as a fraud.

Funnily enough, a poem written by Lincoln that started a lot of the speculation about his sexuality was actually published in Herndon's bio of Lincoln, the same disputed source that the original post came from. That's of no real significance, just a fun coincidence.

TL;DR - Nah, Lincoln was definitely strange and people like to theorize, but he was heterosexual.

[–]JamesAuryn 6 points7 points ago

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If you want pages full of pro-Christianity quotes from lincoln, just google "abe lincoln christian quotes". If you want pages full of pro-atheism quotes from lincoln, just google "abe lincoln atheist quotes". You can do this for a surprisingly high number of historical figures, especially early US historical figures.

[–]Supertrample 2 points3 points ago

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Because most of them were Deists. :)

[–]HellHaven 0 points1 point ago

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Most were Christians. Maybe 1 or 2 were deists. Jefferson is often cited as being a deist, but he certainly was a Christian. He wrote the Jefferson Bible and even distributed it to his peers.

[–]tzardimi 1 point2 points ago

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The Jefferson Bible removed all the supernatural elements in the Bible and left the moral lessons. So I don't think that would make him Christian.

[–]HellHaven 0 points1 point ago

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Why not? It's basically all the core elements of Christianity without all the filler. If anything it's an improved version of Christianity.

[–]Tself 1 point2 points ago

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It's basically all the core positive ethics of Christianity without all the filler.

FTFY

It is more of a Christian philosophy stripped of its religion fueled dogma. Something to learn from rather than something to obey.

[–]jimmysilverrims 7 points8 points ago

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When did he say this, do you know the source?

[–]Fletch71011 36 points37 points ago

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“The thing about quotes from the internet is that it's hard to verify their authenticity.” ― Abraham Lincoln

[–]nerdfightersrule 12 points13 points ago

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Abe Lincoln wasn't an atheist... :p

[–]General_Hide 3 points4 points ago

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more like Honest Abe, the theist.

"I can see how it might be possible for a man to look down upon the earth and be an atheist, but I cannot conceive how a man could look up into the heavens and say there is no God."

"I know that the Lord is always on the side of the right. But it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord's side."

"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves, and, under a just God, cannot long retain it."

Source: The Wit and Wisdom of Abraham Lincoln: A Book of Quotations

[–]drhone15 3 points4 points ago

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Lincoln was a deist, like washington, franklin, jefferson. Deists believe in a god, but not any particular religion. Read Thomas Paines "Age of Reason" it explains Deism rather well.

[–]IAMWastingMyTime 2 points3 points ago

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where did you find this picture

Here?

[–]jkeller87 3 points4 points ago

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[–]olFashionedLoser 4 points5 points ago

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According to that, the quote is from an old man named Glenn, not Lincoln. Upvote for finding the source.

[–]zombient 1 point2 points ago

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And nothing makes me feel better than the suspension of the constitutionally protected right to writs of habeas corpus.

[–]samwisebonghits 0 points1 point ago

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well then you'd probably get along just fine with Honest Abe

[–]TheGoshDarnedBatman 0 points1 point ago

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thatsthejoke.jpg

[–]samwisebonghits 1 point2 points ago

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thatsquiteobvious.jpg

[–]madethistopostthis 0 points1 point ago

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thenwhydidyoupostthat.mp3

[–]samwisebonghits 0 points1 point ago

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becauseithoughtitwouldgetupvoted.mpeg also, becauseicomefromrtrees.pot

[–]madethistopostthis 0 points1 point ago

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Okay.pdf

[–]mltinney 1 point2 points ago

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He definitely was not an Atheist, but I still like the quote.

[–]TheGoshDarnedBatman 1 point2 points ago

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[–]ChemicalSerenity 1 point2 points ago

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[–]ShandoRaynor 0 points1 point ago

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Holy Fuck. This is why Bender is called Bender. ( not sure about the Bending Rodriguez )

[–]busy3 1 point2 points ago

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The lack of objectivity makes my brain hurt :-(

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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Athy!

Athier!

Athiest! He's the athiest!

[–]WhatTheJump 1 point2 points ago

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Come on now, at least wait a month before you repost..

[–]abrickofclay 1 point2 points ago

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This is a repost as i was the one who posted it 8 days ago! Come on!

[–]Natatos 1 point2 points ago

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Lincoln was an atheist, the internet says so.

[–]AMA_horse 1 point2 points ago*

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[–]jimmysilverrims 2 points3 points ago

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Why did you need to edit this?

[–]dances_with_penguins 1 point2 points ago

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[–]HeilKaiba -1 points0 points ago

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General consensus is that all U.S. Presidents were Christians although some weren't very religious.

[–]Miragemirror 0 points1 point ago

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Atheist? This seems more like hedonist.

[–]Cloud9AintHalfBad 0 points1 point ago

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A true abetheist

[–]Biff_Bifferson 0 points1 point ago

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~ Abraham Lincoln

[–]Bartab 0 points1 point ago

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I for one don't want to be a slave to my chemical and social programming that causes almost all of "feeling good" and "feeling bad". So instead I have a logically cohesive set of personal morals.

[–]Likes_Your_Name 0 points1 point ago

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I just read 'Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter'

Not sure if credible but he's a badass.

In the book he finds god to be a dick.

(I just like the book! Don't hate!) ( I also like your name! )

[–]HerrGrammar 0 points1 point ago

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I'm tellin' ya, Jerry, Abe is simply the ATHIEST. THE ATHIEST, JERRY! THE ATHIEST!

[–]MackLuster77 0 points1 point ago

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That's gold!

[–]GrooveCombo 0 points1 point ago

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There was a concerted effort over decades to social engineer a more self righteous America, and because of that, we are worse off for it.

[–]NotTheEndOfTheWorld 0 points1 point ago

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How is this anything more than the "philosophy" of a dumb animal?

Obviously, Lincoln was a man of deep thoughts and feelings, and this one quote is taken way out of context.

But to equate one's feelings with a moral compass is just wrong. If I'm speeding when I don't know the speed limit, even though I don't feel bad about it at the time, then I am still endangering other peoples' lives and property.

Emotions are very plastic and can be influenced by unknown forces from bio-chemical to psychological scars. The individual can even "train" their own emotions in many ways from "confronting their fears" to choosing to listen to a certain song.

I just think pulling out this one quote is doing an injustice to what was one of the greatest men of his time.

[–]richertai 1 point2 points ago

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Came here to say this, feelings about Lincoln aside.

[–]swested 0 points1 point ago

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On another subject, Abe Lincoln was probably half-black.

[–]Ubermensch65five321 0 points1 point ago

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When I do bad I feel good. Should that be my religion?

[–]siskiyoufire 0 points1 point ago

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Good Quote!

[–]dirtyliberals 0 points1 point ago

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Thought its untrue he was an atheist, wouldn't going by this quote make him an apatheist?

[–]Jorgwalther 0 points1 point ago

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I attended an all day conference on Lincoln this previous Thursday. He most certainly was not an atheist.

[–]mecrosis 0 points1 point ago

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Everyone knows he was an atheist, one can't continue to believe in god after seeing their mother killed by a vampire. A good god wouldn't let vampires live, that' why he took the matter into his own hands .

[–]borderline_spectrum 0 points1 point ago

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I want to get this tattooed.

[–]DoctorSqueakin 0 points1 point ago

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..OR he was just a human being with his own ideals.

[–]slamdunkmyjunk 0 points1 point ago

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[–]Osgiliath 0 points1 point ago

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Anyone think that Abe lincoln really looks like Jude Law here?

[–]Darvokan 0 points1 point ago

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So, if revenge feels good...

[–]RagingDean -1 points0 points ago

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Been posted at least three times this year.

[–]keyree 6 points7 points ago

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This week...

[–]darter22 -1 points0 points ago

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Downvoted because you can't spell.

[–]ianjackson95 -1 points0 points ago

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But Abe was a flaming racist. He believed that blacks were inferior. He enjoyed racist jokes and blackface shows.

[–]DaBacon94 -1 points0 points ago

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Fairly good chance Abe was not an atheist -_-

[–]darwins_spear -4 points-3 points ago

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One of the worst presidents we've ever had: Killed more Americans that any other president, suspended habeas corpus, tried to jail Supreme Court justices for opposing him, etc...

In other words, he's a murderous tyrant with little respect for the law, which makes him a perfect moral compass for atheists.

[–]dispellado 2 points3 points ago

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An average of -100 karma a day. You'll grow up to be a fine troll on this internet.

[–]darwins_spear -3 points-2 points ago

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"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

If I cared about karma more than truth I'm sure I'd have a lot more points.

[–]punsky 0 points1 point ago

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Nice defense. So anyone who has a mass of people against him must be a genius? That may be a trait of a genius, but the reverse of that logic is not the same.

Sure the dunces may form a confederacy against him, but that doesn't mean that one who has a confederacy formed against him is necessarily a genius. From your past posts it seems your credit yourself to be a very logical person.. meh

[–]bac8434 1 point2 points ago

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Clearly you haven't actually studied the man's presidency. It's never as simple as that. Also, a moral compass for atheists? Even as a theist, I's like to apologize on behalf of your bullshit.

[–]darwins_spear -2 points-1 points ago

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Which part of what I said are you claiming is wrong? Lincoln was a truly awful president.

[–]SatanGetsMe 2 points3 points ago

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You're obviously a troll, but I'll just point out the tidbit about Lincoln killing more Americans than any other president.

[–]Kaluthir 0 points1 point ago

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That shows about 210,000 Union and Confederate servicemen killed in battle, but nothing about civilian casualties. There probably weren't a whole lot killed directly, but GEN Sherman's scorched earth policy, the ensuing famine, and other civilian deaths, in addition to non-battle deaths of soldiers (especially from disease) probably brings the total north of 500,000 (compared to about 400,000 American casualties for WW2).

[–]darwins_spear -3 points-2 points ago

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So what you're saying is that it took 80 years, a much larger population, and deadlier weapons for Lincolns death toll to be surpassed. I'm sure he is proud of second place. It's still awful and you've not responded at all to his suspension of habeas corpus or jailing judges.

[–]SatanGetsMe 0 points1 point ago

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Pretty awful, yeah.

[–]wisenheimer 0 points1 point ago

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and what''s this bullshit about General Lee surrendering? He was just polishing his sword I tells ya!

[–]Pedophil3 -1 points0 points ago

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He was also anti-black.