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top 200 commentsshow 500

[–]mepper 604 points605 points ago

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Separation of church and state: He gets it.

[–]patherix 112 points113 points ago

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I'm a moderately Conservative Christian and I have never heard anything this sensible.

[–][deleted] 204 points205 points ago

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Dude is a constitutional law teacher. I think he might understand a thing or two about it.

LOL RON PAUL DELIVERS BABIES WHO CARES IF HE DOESNT BELIEVE IN EVILUTION.

Nobody tries to defend Santorum on reddit so I can just leave him out.

[–]anarcholibertarian 20 points21 points ago

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He might know a lot about the U.S. Constitution, but he sure did disregard that knowledge when he renewed the PATRIOT Act.

[–]Tron9510 2 points3 points ago

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Look up what's currently in the Patriot act, it's not as bad as it once was. Though it still is bad.

[–]anarcholibertarian 2 points3 points ago

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Though it still is bad.

Exactly

[–]dietotaku 90 points91 points ago

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frankly i find it really alarming that a medical doctor doesn't believe in science. and a doctor responsible for safely bringing life into the world, at that.

[–][deleted] 52 points53 points ago

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I grew up in a family with a lot of medical doctors. Med school is a vocational school, not where you learn to become a scientist.

[–]DoomyDoom 12 points13 points ago

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How does one go through all the med school pre reqs and not pick up how to science? ಠ_ಠ

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points ago*

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It's just 2 semesters of bio. 2 of gen. chem and 2 of o. chem...And two semesters of non-calculus based physics. It depends on the professor, but it doesn't necessarily have to involve thinking with the scientific method. From my experience with a lot of my family going through med school/being in med school, they view the classes not as "science" classes, or anything worthwhile, but rather just what they have to do in order to achieve their overarching goal of becoming an MD. Most MD's I have met and most med students I have met don't necessarily have an interest in medicine, it's just the profession they lust after. So after they get their MD and residency and all that out of the way, they don't bother to read up on recent medical research because they never did care about the science, just the job. There are, of course, MD's with a great interest in science and all that. And I don't know which kind is more prolific, but I can tell you in the area I grew up in, where most people who go on to medical school tend to be east asian/indian/middle eastern (especially iranian--I'm iranian) and only interested in medicine as a profession because it was ingrained into them as what they should achieve since childhood by their parents.

Edit: I don't mean to isolate Iranians, Indians or East Asians, it's just those are the cultures I'm most experienced with. This is fairly universal, I think. From my experience other cultures tend to be more inclined towards doing law/engineering/accounting etc.. just for money/stable job/parental influence etc...

[–]SuperRezzy 12 points13 points ago

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To be fair, that is only one aspect of science he does not believe in.

[–]zhaorenw 17 points18 points ago

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One aspect which is connected to all knowledge that we have regarding biology.

[–]mecrosis 4 points5 points ago

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What I've learned about politicians is that they don't always believe what they say, or say what they believe. What they will do is affirm what gives them a lead in a poll and distance themselves form what drops them a point or two.

[–]MrIncorporeal 2 points3 points ago

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The sad thing about modern politics is that even the rare honest person who truly wants to make their country a better place is forced to follow this sort of doctrine, toe the line of one or the other main party, and to pander to the masses. If they don't, they simply won't get elected to any position that can make any actual difference.

[–]c0ckBl0cker 3 points4 points ago

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As I understand it, a big part of medical training is learning evolution, it's odd for a doctor to deny it.

[–]antesignanus 4 points5 points ago

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Not really, it's like learning about a culture and a religion but not believing in it. You can choose to learn about Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Greek and Roman gods, etc. In the end, you choose what you believe in. Nor is it necessarily odd for a doctor to deny evolution. A doctor doesn't really need to believe that evolution occurred to deliver a baby or perform triple bypass surgery or perform a medical check up.

[–]magicrhinos 2 points3 points ago

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Here's an excerpt from his book where that quote comes from:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1546298,00.html

[–]yroby 266 points267 points ago

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I didn't read it in his voice, that would take too long.

[–]envyreznor 37 points38 points ago

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How true! It takes like a whole minuet longer to read like Obama then it does in your normal voice.

[–]huff-themagicdragon 79 points80 points ago

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Bach's Minuet in G minor is probably my favorite, what's yours?

[–]envyreznor 17 points18 points ago

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Why the minuet waltz by Chopin, of course! Bahaha (like a snooty society wife)

[–]dome210 2 points3 points ago

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Chopin is the greatest.

[–]gm87 2 points3 points ago*

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Apparently my Spotify is having the same problem

Edit: Spelling. Sorry - phones will do that to you.

[–]butterbeany 30 points31 points ago

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I just read it again in his voice. It took forever but damn it felt more powerful and comforting. I really like his speaking voice.

[–]Ticallion_Mathematic 8 points9 points ago

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You really feel like you want to go out and do something afterwards.

[–]silenc3x 15 points16 points ago

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fuck it, im gonna go get some panera.

[–]StopDropAndBurn 878 points879 points ago

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From how I see it, he's basically saying that the bible is not a valid arguement against abortion. And if so, then more power to him.

[–]IamSparticles 1041 points1042 points ago

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It's not a valid legal argument. A believer might consider it a valid argument to not get an abortion themselves. They cannot use it as an argument to force others to not get abortions.

[–]OmegaSeven 675 points676 points ago

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And this is exactly how the system should work.

[–]WaffleSports 242 points243 points ago

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Wait wait wait... so you're saying the government should be secular? In Murica?

[–]the_great_dane 112 points113 points ago

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It's rather odd for me, as someone living in a secular country, to look at the powerful 'MURICA! and realise that the majority is crazy.

[–]thimblyjoe 146 points147 points ago

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No, the majority is not crazy here. The majority of the really vocal people here are crazy. That's the difference. The sane ones just keep to themselves.

[–]EricTboneJackson 139 points140 points ago

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No, the majority is not crazy here.

Dude, George Bush Jr. was elected to a second term. A majority or near majority of people in this country are fucking morons.

[–]baron11585 99 points100 points ago

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Voter participation rates and the electoral college beg to differ with your statement.

[–]dietotaku 11 points12 points ago

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not voting when a guy like dubya is a candidate is equally as moronic as voting for dubya.

[–]Inferno 43 points44 points ago

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Non-voters = Crazy. You'd have to be to allow the crazies to vote in a crazy.

[–]hydro123456 63 points64 points ago

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I think a lot of people feel it's hopeless. It's like that South Park episode where they're voting for a school mascot. When your choice is between a turd sandwich and a giant douche, why bother?

[–][deleted] ago*

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[deleted]

[–]freediverx 5 points6 points ago

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They said the same thing about Bush Jr vs Bush Sr., vs Reagan, vs Nixon. The Republican party has been falling off a cliff from merely being assholes to being batshit crazy.

[–]carrot72 30 points31 points ago

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A lot of Americans are starting to realize that a lot of these Republicans are full of shit, so we're heading in the right direction I think.

[–]reallyhawtlesbo 11 points12 points ago

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Wholeheartedly agree. If Santorum ends up getting a nod or the GOP gets beat badly in the general election, I think there will be a lot of necessary change within the party, and thus, the country.

[–]carrot72 9 points10 points ago

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It might not entirely be the GOP, but actually the corporatists who are making the GOP and even some democrats look bad. We really need to get corporate money out of government.

[–]ProN00b 13 points14 points ago

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A lot of Americans are starting to realize that a lot of these Republicans Politicians are full of shit, so we're heading in the right direction I think.

FTFY

[–]Habbeighty-four 9 points10 points ago

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Voter turnout in American elections since 1960. While I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, your evidence is insufficient.

[–]facebookhatingoldguy 2 points3 points ago

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TIL: Voter turnout has actually been on the rise in U.S. presidential elections since 1996.

[–]revoopychris 11 points12 points ago

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In a 2006 nationwide poll, University of Minnesota researchers found that despite an increasing acceptance of religious diversity, atheists were generally distrusted by other Americans, who rated them below Muslims, recent immigrants and other minority groups in "sharing their vision of American society". They also associated atheists with undesirable attributes such as criminal behavior, rampant materialism, and cultural elitism. However, the same study also reported that "The researchers also found acceptance or rejection of atheists is related not only to personal religiosity, but also to one's exposure to diversity, education and political orientation--with more educated, East and West Coast Americans more accepting of atheists than their Midwestern counterparts. 1. 2. 3.

[–]Xpected2 2 points3 points ago

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No no no, the majority is quite sane. However, the majority with money...

[–]darkheart86 25 points26 points ago

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Sadly, most of the majority doesn't care

[–]mamerong 94 points95 points ago

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As opposed to a little bit of the majority?

[–]SweetNeo85 64 points65 points ago

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or a little bit of Monica.

[–]craberombie 46 points47 points ago

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In my life

[–]kickmekate 35 points36 points ago

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A little bit of Erica?

[–]gheis 33 points34 points ago

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She's by my side.

[–]guitarmasutra 29 points30 points ago

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a little bit of Rita is all I need.

[–]floppypick 3 points4 points ago

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Perhaps "Most of the people who are against abortion, don't see that others should still be allowed to get one. Though there are some people who, while they're against it, think people can do what they want"?

[–]JibberGXP 16 points17 points ago

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I try to convert these abortion-haters that hold signs up on the main sidewalks by pulling over beside them and blaring "Angel of Death" - Slayer.

It doesn't seem to work. Can anyone suggest a better method to help these ignorant folks to understand?

[–]snarkymcsnarkstein 18 points19 points ago

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You know how some have those big blown up posters of aborted fetuses with the word "CHOICE"? Have one of a battered pregnant teen that says "RAPE VICTIM".

[–]AtomicRevGib 11 points12 points ago

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Maybe try 'Youthanasia' - Megadeth. Hope this helps.

[–]kurtgustavwilckens 10 points11 points ago

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Education.

[–]moralprolapse 33 points34 points ago*

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I think they've done that though. I've heard a lot more of the "is a fetus alive? And if so, can it be anything other than a human life?" than the "the Bible tells me so" argument.

Abortion is a bad example for a good principle he's illustrating. Abortion isn't one of those issues where, minus religion, the answer is clear. I'm an atheist who comes down on the pro-choice side, but the pro-life side does have a compelling argument.

A better example of the principle he's talking about might be something like the recent law making Catholic institutions provide birth control as part of their employee health plans. There's no compelling, secular reason to not make sure birth control is available to anyone who pays for health insurance.

[–]scienceagain 33 points34 points ago

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He's not saying that the answer is clear when religious arguments are removed. He's just saying that that is the proper way to debate abortion. Talk about whether fetuses deserve legal protection based on scientific evidence, not divine revelation.

[–]GSpotAssassin 8 points9 points ago

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Gay marriage.

[–]SynthD 9 points10 points ago

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The non-religious pro-life argument I know of is related to the nervous system, when the fetus can feel pain, for this reason abortions are almost never legal after 20 weeks. Is what you know different?

[–]moralprolapse 11 points12 points ago

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Well, just what I said earlier as far as what constitutes human life. From a more philosophical than scientific angle, I appreciated the argument relating it to Plato's cave. If some"one" has never experienced sight, smell, taste, hearing(?), and has never been awake in the traditional sense, are they really sentient beings deserving the title of human?

[–]ultimape 5 points6 points ago

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I suppose any argument against killing disabled people would work against your argument as well.

I don't see how defining something as human really matters... every "cell" in our body, from conception, is a "human" cell. What matters is weither or not that cell experiences pain or suffering on a level that is significant.

Otherwise, wiping your nose is murder, because you are effectively destroying thousands of "human" skin cells.

[–]LegendaryPunk 3 points4 points ago*

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Except those cells destroyed when wiping your nose were never going to be anything more than nose cells. A zygote, regardless of when it actually happens, will turn into a living being at some point. I'm pro-choice as well, but I think it's misleading to say all somatic human cells have the same potential of life as two fertilized sex cells.

All cells may be equal, but some are more equal than others.

[–]DefinitelyRelephant 6 points7 points ago

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Right - he's saying the law overrides your religion as long as you're in America.

Which is the way it should be.

[–]FantomEx 33 points34 points ago

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The bible supports abortion if the pregnancy is a product of adultery and even has instructions for the priest on how to induce a miscarriage.

[–]Xelnastoss 13 points14 points ago

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I'm intrigued do you know the book? I think that would be interesting

[–]arth33 32 points33 points ago

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Numbers 5:11-31

11 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 12 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, 13 and a man has intercourse with her and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband and she is [a]undetected, although she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act, 14 [b]if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has defiled herself, or if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has not defiled herself, 15 the man shall then bring his wife to the priest, and shall bring as [c]an offering for her one-tenth of an [d]ephah of barley meal; he shall not pour oil on it nor put frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of memorial, a reminder of iniquity.

16 ‘Then the priest shall bring her near and have her stand before the LORD, 17 and the priest shall take holy water in an earthenware vessel; and [e]he shall take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 The priest shall then have the woman stand before the LORD and let the hair of the woman’s head go loose, and place the grain offering of memorial [f]in her hands, which is the grain offering of jealousy, and in the hand of the priest is to be the water of bitterness that brings a curse. 19 The priest shall have her take an oath and shall say to the woman, “If no man has lain with you and if you have not gone astray into uncleanness, being under the authority of your husband, be [g]immune to this water of bitterness that brings a curse; 20 if you, however, have gone astray, being under the authority of your husband, and if you have defiled yourself and a man other than your husband has had intercourse with you” 21 (then the priest shall have the woman swear with the oath of the curse, and the priest shall say to the woman), “the LORD make you a curse and an oath among your people by the LORD’S making your thigh [h]waste away and your abdomen swell; 22 and this water that brings a curse shall go into your [i]stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh [j]waste away.” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Amen.”

23 ‘The priest shall then write these curses on a scroll, and he shall [k]wash them off into the water of bitterness. 24 Then he shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings a curse, so that the water which brings a curse will go into her [l]and cause bitterness. 25 The priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy from the woman’s hand, and he shall wave the grain offering before the LORD and bring it to the altar; 26 and the priest shall take a handful of the grain offering as its memorial offering and offer it up in smoke on the altar, and afterward he shall make the woman drink the water. 27 When he has made her drink the water, then it shall come about, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, that the water which brings a curse will go into her [m]and cause bitterness, and her abdomen will swell and her thigh will [n]waste away, and the woman will become a curse among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, she will then be free and conceive [o]children.

29 ‘This is the law of jealousy: when a wife, being under the authority of her husband, goes astray and defiles herself, 30 or when a spirit of jealousy comes over a man and he is jealous of his wife, he shall then make the woman stand before the LORD, and the priest shall apply all this law to her. 31 Moreover, the man will be free from [p]guilt, but that woman shall bear her [q]guilt.’”

[–]Willie_The_Pimp 29 points30 points ago

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Why go through all the trouble? Just see if she floats. Or weighs more than a duck.

[–]SGT3386 54 points55 points ago

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TL;DR

[–]Think_Tanker 12 points13 points ago

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From "The Message" version of the Bible:

11-15 God spoke to Moses: "Tell the People of Israel, Say a man's wife goes off and has an affair, is unfaithful to him by sleeping with another man, but her husband knows nothing about it even though she has defiled herself. And then, even though there was no witness and she wasn't caught in the act, feelings of jealousy come over the husband and he suspects that his wife is impure. Even if she is innocent and his jealousy and suspicions are groundless, he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of two quarts of barley flour for her. He is to pour no oil on it or mix incense with it because it is a Grain-Offering for jealousy, a Grain-Offering for bringing the guilt out into the open.

16-22 "The priest then is to take her and have her stand in the presence of God. He is to take some holy water in a pottery jar and put some dust from the floor of The Dwelling in the water. After the priest has her stand in the presence of God he is to uncover her hair and place the exposure-offering in her hands, the Grain-Offering for jealousy, while he holds the bitter water that delivers a curse. Then the priest will put the woman under oath and say, 'If no man has slept with you and you have not had an adulterous affair and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that delivers a curse not harm you. But if you have had an affair while married to your husband and have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband'—here the priest puts the woman under this curse—'may God cause your people to curse and revile you when he makes your womb shrivel and your belly swell. Let this water that delivers a curse enter your body so that your belly swells and your womb shrivels.'

"Then the woman shall say, 'Amen. Amen.'

23-28 "The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash the words off into the bitter water. He then is to give the woman the bitter water that delivers a curse. This water will enter her body and cause acute pain. The priest then is to take from her hands a handful of the Grain-Offering for jealousy, wave it before God, and bring it to the Altar. The priest then is to take a handful of the Grain-Offering, using it as an exposure-offering, and burn it on the Altar; after this he is to make her drink the water. If she has defiled herself in being unfaithful to her husband, when she drinks the water that delivers a curse, it will enter her body and cause acute pain; her belly will swell and her womb shrivel. She will be cursed among her people. But if she has not defiled herself and is innocent of impurity, her name will be cleared and she will be able to have children.

29-31 "This is the law of jealousy in a case where a woman goes off and has an affair and defiles herself while married to her husband, or a husband is tormented with feelings of jealousy because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand in the presence of God and go through this entire procedure with her. The husband will be cleared of wrong, but the woman will pay for her wrong."

[–]SGT3386 10 points11 points ago

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Thanks for the translation.

[–]islave 3 points4 points ago

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If the husband is unfaithful? Then the procedure is?

[–]Think_Tanker 3 points4 points ago

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Keep calm and carry on?

[–]Sucks_At_Insulting 163 points164 points ago

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You're a valid argument against abortion.

[–]RATES_YOUR_NOVELTY 103 points104 points ago

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6/10

[–]YELLS_OBVIOUS_SHIT 44 points45 points ago

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THAT'S NOT VERY HIGH!

[–]RATES_YOUR_NOVELTY 47 points48 points ago

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4/10

[–]Reddit_Script 19 points20 points ago

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Downvote ALL the shitty novelty accounts!

[–]YELLS_OBVIOUS_SHIT 33 points34 points ago

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YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT REALLY A SCRIPT!

[–]fatcat2040 3 points4 points ago

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I think you mean for aborti-ahhh. What you did there, I see it.

[–]duyogurt 53 points54 points ago

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Think of it like this:

One does not need to be religious to see the pitfalls of murder. That is, civilization figured out murdering people was wrong long before the Bible was written and societies that do not invoke monotheistic values also criminalize murder. Hence, the value has been translated into a universal law regardless of religious motivation.

[–]tofagerl 15 points16 points ago

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How about you guys make it illegal for catholics to have an abortion, and have Planned Parenthood stock up on "I wanna quit the church!" forms. Wait, do they have those forms in the US...? We do in Norway.

[–]SeanStock 7 points8 points ago

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As crazy as we are, at least we don't have a state church.

[–]tofagerl 2 points3 points ago

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You should probably read about our state church. They're basically a bunch of wedding/funeral organisers. They have no function in politics whatsoever.

[–]SeanStock 2 points3 points ago

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Fully aware, still anachronistic. Let us win this one, damn it.

Look everyone! A Norwegian with a state church! Mock him!

[–]Mike_Mercury[S] 12 points13 points ago

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Yes, that's how I interpreted it.

[–]highspeedCU 11 points12 points ago

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The corollary to this is that you can't dismiss an argument simply because some use religion to defend it.

Ex: Saying personhood begins at conception is just as logical as any other point thereafter regardless of where religion stands on it.

[–]thebitchrake 153 points154 points ago

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Can someone write this out? I'm straining my eyes trying to read blurry white text on a light background that fades to white.

What I can read, though, I did not read in his voice because I don't know it.

[–]Mike_Mercury[S] 197 points198 points ago*

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Sure.

Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal rather than religion-specific values... it requires that their proposals be subject to argument and amenable to reason.

Now, I may be opposed to abortion for religions reasons, to take one example, but if I seek to pass a low banning the practice I cannot simply point to the the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

Also, you totally read this in Obama's voice. (I couldn't help but put that in)

[–][deleted] 111 points112 points ago*

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[–]itisnow 26 points27 points ago

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Is that an optical illusion or is some of the text in blue?

[–]Agnostix 14 points15 points ago

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Yes.

[–]thebitchrake 6 points7 points ago

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Thank you :D

[–]tony_orlando 16 points17 points ago

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You forget the best part at the bottom.

"Also, you totally read this in Obama's voice."

[–]lilly1185 7 points8 points ago

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I read it in Samuel Jackson's voice D:

[–]OneWarning13 468 points469 points ago

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Well, Obama would have my vote if I was American. I don't understand the hate, I think he's doing the best possible job he can under extremely difficult circumstances and a congress that is dead set against him. He seems to be quite an intelligent man, and I respect him greatly.

[–]PSNDonutDude 291 points292 points ago*

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Who the hell else could you vote for? Even if you hate him, the other candidates are moronic buffoons.

[–]SuddenlyHomophobic 234 points235 points ago

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Come now, Santorum is clearly the most reasonable and reputable candidate. Obama may have killed Osama Bin Laden, but Santorum's a fag (and I can't wait for the scandal).

[–]boozecruisin 143 points144 points ago

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This is why you always check usernames.

[–]Equipmunk 41 points42 points ago

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I had no choice but to hear that in the voice of this man.

[–]TheBakedPotato 9 points10 points ago

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Since I started watching it, I've seen so many more Arrested Development references. They're everywhere.

[–]JtheHomicidalManiac 5 points6 points ago

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Is it worth watching?

[–]joshrh88 17 points18 points ago

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If everyone else on Reddit hasn't already convinced you to watch it, I will throw my recommendation in. It is one of my favorite comedies ever made. It's on both netflix and hulu (I think), try a few episodes out.

[–]maxicantrask 2 points3 points ago

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It's the best non-Firefly show I've seen, making it by default the best comedy show, so definitely worth a watch.

[–]Gigathulu 8 points9 points ago

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I know! Won't it be delicious!?!?

Seriously though, with the size of the double reinforced steel rod up that guys ass, he has to be gay.

[–]on_the_redpill 12 points13 points ago

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Insulting to gay people everywhere

[–]Contero 57 points58 points ago

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I double-dog dare you to post this in /r/ronpaul

[–][deleted] 28 points29 points ago

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SO BRAVE

[–]867points 13 points14 points ago

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Teenage maximalism for Paul 2012.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points ago

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Who the he will else

wat

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points ago

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He actually has done quite a bit, given that everything he puts in front of Congress automatically gets thrown out. I'm surprised more people aren't singing his praises after he installed the Consumer Protection Bureau, which is now going after big loaners. He is really does seem like a GGG, but everyone wants to hate on him because he can't "magically" fix everything. Whatever, I'm voting for him again.

[–]bunit03057 17 points18 points ago

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Viewing reddit is not a great way to find reasoned opposition to voting for Obama. For starters, and this basically is with question: if you are a libertarian or believe the government should pursue fiscal austerity voting for Obama is basically not a good option. But that doesn't mean Santorum is either.

[–]smguy2012 9 points10 points ago

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Yeah, except very few people are hard core libertarian. Only the very most extreme people are. As soon as you start talking about no FDA, different currencies in every state, etc, etc. you very quickly whittle the "libertarian" crowd down to an insignificant number of people.

Probably 99% of Americans truly just want a slightly smaller and significantly more effective government if you really talk through all the issues with them. That's pretty much what Obama wants too. I don't believe anyone can find any evidence that he's in favor of expanding government for its own sake.

[–]AKnightAlone 23 points24 points ago

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I sense that he gets pushed around behind the scenes, honestly. I liked him originally and he seems like a good guy still... I just don't think he can get things done because of the government in place.

[–]eviltane 14 points15 points ago

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this is exactly my thinking. he had all these awesome ideals . Then all the bureaucracy and all the rules and all the assholes that know how to play the political game tie him down.

[–]imamidget 3 points4 points ago

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what i'm just hoping is that if (when) he gets elected for his second term that he stops giving a fuck about all that and starts doing the things he promised in the first place.

[–]caitlinreid 7 points8 points ago

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Ah, but you pay more attention than the average US citizen.

[–]Endemoniada 9 points10 points ago

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I don't understand the hate, I think he's doing the best possible job he can under extremely difficult circumstances and a congress that is dead set against him.

There are two very distinct kinds of hate against him, and always has been. The most obvious is the birther idiots, the ones who yell "communist!" and can just barely contain their almost gleeful racism.

The other kind is the one that recognizes that, although Obama does strive to do good and take the US into the 21st century, he's still a lobbyist-controlled pawn in a giant, financial carousel who won't even overturn the blatantly anti-civil rights wiretapping laws of the Bush era, or properly close the detainment centers like he explicitly promised. In many ways, he's betrayed his voters on matters he could have taken care of, if he really wanted, but is now instead embracing and trying to keep quite about, so people won't notice too much.

Yes, he's quite intelligent, but that doesn't make him good, just better than most. When compared with Republicans, though, he's absolutely, without a doubt, the best.

[–]gaoshan 20 points21 points ago*

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You are quite correct. The hatred for him (*edit: hate... not merely dislike or disagree), however, isn't based on logic or reason so it is very difficult for someone who thinks like that to get their head around. It's like asking how the Noah's Ark of the bible could possibly be real given the available amount of space and the quantity and needs of so many animals. The people that believe in it aren't looking at it from that angle and likely never will.

It's a mishmash of racism, conservatism, greed, religion and plain old stupidity and unless you are willing to view him through a least some of those lenses you will never get close to at least a hint as to why some people hate him so much.

It's frustrating and even nonsensical but that's the reality of conservative thinking in our country these days.

[–]krackbaby 6 points7 points ago

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He is doing a pretty fantastic job, given the circumstances, and he will be president for another 4 years

[–][deleted] 26 points27 points ago

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including those with no faith at all

it feels good to be noticed.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]dorino0net 32 points33 points ago

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People don't upvote text as much as imgur links, and self-posts yield no sweet, sweet karma.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points ago

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Which is funny, because a while back I made a self-post in r/politics about focusing on congress this November rather than circlejerking over Ron Paul. This lead to about 20 people accusing me of being a karma whore since Ron Paul was in the title. Meanwhile, self-posts don't give you karma. That was when I began to realize that I was obliviously late to the "unsubscribe from r/politics" party.

[–][deleted] 32 points33 points ago*

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[–]MrMercurial 9 points10 points ago

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This has to do with the legitimacy of imposing what John Rawls called comprehensive doctrines upon other people.

You can't legitimately coerce other reasonable people unless you give them reasons which any reasonable person could accept- these reasons don't count if they depend upon the other person sharing your religious worldview.

[–]AuroraDark 3 points4 points ago

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Only a single mention of Rawls? Reddit I am disappoint.

Upvoted for identifying him!

Obama's argument here is taken directly from Rawls' "A Theory of Justice", and more specifically his amendment in "The idea of public reason revisited", if anybody was interested.

[–]RAWRcats 9 points10 points ago

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This should apply to all laws the US currently has in effect, liquor laws, same-sex marriage, and what we teach in our schools. Efforts to legislate morality, especially from a religious standard, usually means that some group has their rights trampled over so that another group can feel good about themselves. I'm tired of having someone else's religion shoved down my throat, so I say good on ya, Mr. President!

[–]ContractTheory 50 points51 points ago

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I am pro-life and I completely agree with Obama on this one. Using religious grounds to justify legislation on an issue that effects a multicultural society runs counter to how such a society ought to work.

[–]admiralallahackbar 17 points18 points ago

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Most Christian pro-lifers I've come in contact with realize it's not enough to say "The Bible forbids abortion" when arguing against it (at least in part because they know if god didn't want to allow abortions, he really failed to make that clear).

[–]peoplesuck357 4 points5 points ago

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I actually don't think the notion that "abortion is murder" has anything to do with the bible. I realize that religious people are more likely to be pro-life than atheists, but where does it say in the bible anything about abortion? Correct me if I'm wrong. Both atheists and religious people (generally) find murder to be immoral, and depending on your idea of when life starts, abortion could be murder.

[–]PerfectGentleman 10 points11 points ago

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Yes, considering that the Bible gives precise (and fucked up) orders on how to perform abortions.

[–]BigBlueChevrolet 35 points36 points ago

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I did not read this in Obama's voice. He is not Professor Farnsworth.

[–]Captainpatch 7 points8 points ago

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Brb, going back to read it in Professor Farnsworth's voice.

[–]zeazzz 16 points17 points ago

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Good news, everyone!

Now try to read that in Obama's voice.

[–]Captainpatch 11 points12 points ago

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Oooh, I kinda like the way Obama says that. His voice is perfect for delivering good news, he just doesn't get to do it very often.

[–]dorino0net 14 points15 points ago

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[–]rdinsb 6 points7 points ago

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I think our President rocks, that was just so well put. He is going to crush the republicans.

[–]Supara 94 points95 points ago

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...And why is it that none of you want him re-elected? He seems like the only sane person in american politics these days.

[–]LastToKnow0 93 points94 points ago

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None of who want him reelected? I want him reelected. He's made a couple decisions that I don't agree with, but he is far and away better than any other available candidate.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points ago

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How many of who want who whatted?

[–]SharkMolester 17 points18 points ago

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It's not that we don't like Obama, I mean sure, he might not be everyone's cup of pepsi, but the entire government is fucking useless and needs to be replaced. So, whether liked or not, he gets lumped in with the 'our government fucking sucks' tag line.

[–]craberombie 8 points9 points ago

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Or cup of coke

[–]TaylorWolf 4 points5 points ago

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Corporate-Owned Media : "Look how crazy this guy Santorum is... and he could be your president, like, for reals. Quick, everyone run back into our puppet Obama's arms!"

[–]Ericgzg 5 points6 points ago

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Barrack Obama is not religious hes just smart enough to know he has to say he is.

[–]gifafi 11 points12 points ago

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Who the fuck would think putting white text onto that picture was a good idea?

[–]cdingo 7 points8 points ago

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needs more jpeg compression

[–]zerus 2 points3 points ago

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This. Even though I'm a Republican, this is the way that politics is supposed to be treated. I fully support what Obama is saying and how he should apply law to a country that's founded upon the separation of church and state. This should be reiterated more in today's politics. It just seems unclear to 99.9% of Republican candidates that saying "abortion is bad because the bible tells me so" is imposing your religious beliefs on the public. God should never come up in a political debate.

People have different moral and ethical opinions, but they are merely subjective and can only be suggested in persuasion and should not be an absolute just because they have that position of power to implement policies. US Government officials are supposed to implement these policies for the people, not for their own personal and religious self-interest.

[–]gwalker815 3 points4 points ago

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Former republican that voted for him. Now I get it. Thank you Reddit.

[–]mickannese 3 points4 points ago

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I hate how everyone claims that he is a terrible leader. I feel that he is really intelligent and actually knows that he's doing.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points ago

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I'm not a geologist.... but I know a landslide when I see one.

[–]painordelight 5 points6 points ago

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In other words, "cause I said so!" isn't a reason, even from a god.

[–]radapex 30 points31 points ago

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No wonder the people of America seem to hate him... he's way too rational for those religious nuts!

[–]Grendel05 13 points14 points ago

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Very good quote, Reposted soooo many times

[–]sethgecko 2 points3 points ago

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It's just words, he has not backed up many of the things I was hoping he would. Though i don't want my vote back (McCain would have been a disaster) I am ashamed of my naivete.

[–]alias_9 2 points3 points ago

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It's time to take a step out of the closet now Obama, we all know you're secretly an atheist.

[–]atleast5letters 2 points3 points ago

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the premise of John Rawls' Political Liberalism. I wonder if Obama has read it.

[–]new_math 2 points3 points ago

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white text on white background

[–]threep03k64 2 points3 points ago*

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Wise words. An alternative thought process however could be that if you are opposed to something you have two options:

(a) Show to people of all faiths why such a practice must be banned (as Obama said), or

(b) Carry on disliking it but let that be a personal grievance you don't try to force on society.

All I am trying to say if if you don't like something, don't try to ban it. Let people have their choice and do what they want with their body, whether that be abortion, alcohol or drugs.

I'm not getting at Obama here, I like what he said and think it is something people of all belief's must keep in mind.

[–]Epoh 2 points3 points ago

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I often think the only reason he appeals to Christianity is because thats the only way he could win the presidency.

[–]pddro 2 points3 points ago

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Nailed it.

[–]galganael 2 points3 points ago

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Poor choice in font color...

[–]edknator 2 points3 points ago

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And this is why you vote for the democrats. At least they're still partly sane.

[–]Gfresh404 8 points9 points ago

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How is a 2000 (+) year old book a valid argument for anything now??? It blows my mind how our world is so based on logic, yet the Bible is still relevant today

[–]mrplow8 13 points14 points ago

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Scumbag Obama: Says religion shouldn't be used to justify imposing things on other people through use of the government. Defends his tax plan by claiming that it's what Jesus would want.

[–]lilstumpz 5 points6 points ago

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Also, you totally read this in Obama's voice.

That killed the mood.

[–]greym84 3 points4 points ago

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It's not that I disagree with Obama but it's not quite the hammer-drop you're making it out to be. It presupposes that the underlying reason against abortion is religion, but most pro-life activists aren't arguing anything religious at all. They are simply debating on the point at which a fetus becomes valuable as a human life. To them, abortion is no more a religious issue than murder. Non-religious people believe murder is wrong. So the question is not religious, it's whether or not abortion is the murder of a human.

edit: grammar

[–]rubaru 5 points6 points ago

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I voted for John Mccain, not proud of it. Obama has my vote. He has more integrity than all three republican candidates combined.

[–]Seethus 6 points7 points ago

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I'm not even American, but if you guys don't reelect the only president who isn't a dumbarse. I have lost faith in humany

[–]TheDisillusionist 7 points8 points ago

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I am no fan of BO, but he is spot on with this one. Credit where credit is due

[–]Doctah_Scott 8 points9 points ago

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Yeah I'm not a fan of BO either. I mean, why can't people just take showers regularly or use deodorant!?

[–]akpupacs 7 points8 points ago

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Logically, Obama is setting himself up for failure with that argument. The non-religious argument against abortion is that a human fetus deserves human rights. That is a much easier position to defend than the argument that the fetus begins to deserve human rights only after a given age, since it's easy to call the given age into doubt (day 180? why not day 179?).

Obama would do better to emphasize the right of the mother over the right of the fetus. That's the strongest argument in favor of legal abortion.

[–]Bedwell108 12 points13 points ago*

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He's not defending abortion, he's just using abortion as an example of a controversial and religiously-motivated topic. He's not saying the religious right has no secular argument against abortion, he's saying the tenets of a religion aren't enough for policy change because that's not how democracy works.

You're paying too much attention to the second paragraph, and overlooking the first.

EDIT: Grammar

[–]robin1961 9 points10 points ago*

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Atheist here, so let me take a stab at the Religious-right's rebuttal of this stance:

"The Law we follow is a higher Law than the confused ideals of Man. The Bible tells us that abortion is wrong on many levels, is in fact an evil act, therefore we MUST oppose it. Simply because you neither understand nor accept God's law does NOT exempt you from it. Furthermore, God's law states that anyone who allows these evils to exist is an accomplice to these evil acts, whether they abetted the acts or not. Simply knowing abortion exists compells True Christians to act in opposition."

....and then they would proceed to boilerplate their statement with Bible quotes out of context and of obscure meaning. (edited for a typo)

[–]nasty_nate 3 points4 points ago

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I'm not gonna argue his point here, just his example. In my experience, most pro-lifers (myself included) oppose abortion because they consider killing an unborn child morally equivalent to killing any other human. I'd say that murder is "principle accessible to all faiths". I don't think his argument really has any relevance in the abortion debate. He's creating a straw-man, or I just missed something.

[–]MyHonestThoughts 2 points3 points ago

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most pro-lifers (myself included) oppose abortion because they consider killing an unborn child morally equivalent to killing any other human.

What he's saying, I think, is that it's not enough for them to merely consider it to be equivalent to killing any other human. It must be demonstrated that the two acts are equivalent, and this is, of course, really hard to do. Many pro-lifers will appeal explicitly to religion to make this link, and I think this is what he has in mind.

[–]knowses 1 point2 points ago

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Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things which are God's. I don't think Democracy can demand anything of religion. It is up to you whether you want to change your religious practices. People will vote for you or not.

[–]TenTonWords 1 point2 points ago

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Nothing like tiny text on a jpg that's riddled with artifacts.

[–]thesorrow312 1 point2 points ago

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Secret atheist

[–]setdog 1 point2 points ago

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isnt the pro life argument that abortion is murder? if so, then what more explaining is there for the religiously motivated to do? not trying to ask wether it is or isnt, im just asking if that is their stance then what more explaining do they need to do?

[–]e22over7c 1 point2 points ago

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I got a (what I think is a) brilliant idea! What if we say that only christians cannot get abortions in any way. Everybody's happy in their own little world right :)

ps I would love to see Christians pro abortion some day

[–]DRTwitch1 1 point2 points ago

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Repost but still an amazing quote

[–]ratzi1991 1 point2 points ago

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veeery diplomatic spoken ... but correct!

[–]Oprahtron3000 1 point2 points ago

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A refreshing dose of sanity. I know Obama's policies are far from perfect, but if the alternative is Santorum/Romney/Gingrich, then it's got to be him for four more years.

[–]BeerMe828 1 point2 points ago

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There is plenty that I don't agree with Obama on, but he hit the nail on the head here.

[–]swankandahalf 1 point2 points ago

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Fantastic quote!

He is basically quoting John Rawls, author of A Theory of Justice, and father of the modern study of political science. Rawls calls it "Public Reason."

A family uses different moral criteria than a business or a monastery. A family ought not lay off a child because it is losing money, a business ought not worry about how pious it has been. In the same way, the government ought not use the religious reasons of a monastery.

[–]jackscolon65 1 point2 points ago

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Where's this quote from? Is it specifically in reference to abortion? or is it in reference to the healthcare/contraception thing that's currently going on with abortion just being used as an example?

[–]HappyGlucklichJr 1 point2 points ago*

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Abortion is perhaps the toughest moral dilemma and not necessarily anything to do with religion(s). At least the following three potentially contradictory or contentious positions are perfectly acceptable. 1 - you are entitled to control your own reproduction 2 - you must agree with your reproductive partner 3 - most humans have an innate drive to protect and not terminate human life at whatever stage they find it.

This is in no way a suitable issue to involve politicians.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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It would have been better to start with a universally accepted morality...

Slavery or murder are good examples.

The Bible denounces murder in some places (but of course justifies it in others). However, Atheists, Jews, etc don't support murder or slavery.

And further it has a logical underpinning...

Then he should have explained how it applies to abortion.

[–]chadballs 1 point2 points ago

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Are those Obama's words, or the words of whoever wrote those words on the teleprompter?

[–]patch5 1 point2 points ago

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Also, I totally didn't read this in Obama's voice.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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I may be doing this wrong but I read that in Morgan Freeman's voice :p.

[–]pandagrenade 1 point2 points ago

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Any republican would never have received this much praise on reddit. This is an extremely biased forum, reddit, and doesn't show merit's of right wing position on any topic.

[–]CarbonatedDiarrhea 1 point2 points ago

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As a Christian, I believe in a secular government.

[–]Bastin_Fiend 1 point2 points ago

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Wow, in most cases I wouldn't support Obama for shit, but he pretty much hit the nail on the head.

[–]thealaskanmike 1 point2 points ago

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actually, read this in MLK's voice O.o

[–]sleet01 1 point2 points ago

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Quote checks out; upboating.