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This is how a candlefire looks in zero/micro-gravity (upload.wikimedia.org)
submitted 6 months ago by GrixM
[–]MirrorLake 19 points20 points21 points 6 months ago*
I'm just as curious to know what apparatus made it possible for them to light a flame safely in space. It was my impression that fire on the ISS is a pretty big no-no.
Edit: Pic source.
[–]Aelphaeis 19 points20 points21 points 6 months ago
Actually, the ISS has an Earth-like atmosphere. It's probably not the safest thing to have an open flame, but it's not a pure oxygen environment as in Apollo 1.
[–]MirrorLake 7 points8 points9 points 6 months ago*
Even with a normal atmosphere, I'd rather not light a match in a place where there's nowhere to escape. Thanks for the info!
[–]Aelphaeis 6 points7 points8 points 6 months ago
Of course not. I'm just saying that lighting a match wouldn't necessarily turn into a raging inferno on the station any faster than it would on Earth.
[–]LetsGo_Smokes 25 points26 points27 points 6 months ago
I bet they use vaporizers when they smoke their space weed.
[–]infinitenothing 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
I wonder if that has a similar effect as drinking on a plane has on drinking
[–]jasontimmur -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 months ago
Your comment is full of fuck.
[–]Sorry_Im_Blunt 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
somebody here has never drank on a plane before
[–]jasontimmur 3 points4 points5 points 6 months ago
I just meant the comment was poorly worded. You know what's great on a plane? Booze and ambien. Yes.
[–]colinmhayes 5 points6 points7 points 6 months ago
could have been in a box of some sort. Also, you don't have to go into space to be in free fall.
[–]basmith7 18 points19 points20 points 6 months ago
Sometimes I jump and pretend I am an astronaut on the smallest orbit ever.
[–]colinmhayes 11 points12 points13 points 6 months ago
And it's exactly the same thing. It bugs the hell out of me when people say zero/micro gravity, because it's 100% wrong. It's nothing but free fall and the fact that you're in a non-inertial reference frame.
[–]UnthinkingMajority 8 points9 points10 points 6 months ago
Technically, it's called micro-gravity because the force gravity exerts is negligible when compared to surface conditions.
Source: I've submitted experiments to be performed in a NASA drop tower
[–]stratford 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Is it possible to have true zero gravity. Even between to galaxies with nothing else around you would still have gravity from galaxies or dark matter effecting you correct?
[–]aeroxan 8 points9 points10 points 6 months ago
Theoretically, no. Gravitational forces extend forever so their influence will be everywhere.
[–]IncredibleBenefits 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Actually, I don't think this is exactly correct, though my counterexample will be pretty contrived. It's true that gravitational forces cause by an object extend forever; it's because gravitational fields are defined to permeate all of space (which mirrors reality AFAIK) so you're right in that respect.
It's not correct because you haven't taken into account the principle of superposition. It's (potentially) possible that gravitational forces on an object could add to zero. If the gravitational forces on an object caused by every other object in the universe add to zero at some point in space then the gravitational field would be exactly zero at that point (also, if the principles of QM apply to gravity then the gravitational field would have to fluctuate and probably still wouldn't be exactly zero).
Is there actually a point in the universe where this is the case? I sincerely doubt it, so this is nit-picky response; the more time I waste on reddit the longer I can put of my quantum homework ; )
[–]aeroxan 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
haha! yeah I thought about this. I think you're right that it is extremely unlikely that such a point exists. What about the exact center of mass of the universe though?
[–]Sniperchild 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Surely lagrangian points exist everywhere though?
[–]bayleo 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
Yeah, but referring to it as "micro-gravity" has directly lead to the fundamental misunderstanding that the planet's gravitational field is negligible at orbital distances regardless of orbital velocity. Earth's gravitational field is still about 90% as strong as it is on the surface of the planet at typical orbital distances; meaning if you dropped a ball from that height without any orbital velocity it would fall to the earth with an initial acceleration of (.9)*9.8m/s2. Dunno about you but I'm fucking tired of correcting people about this; just calling it "orbital freefall" might help.
[–]IncredibleBenefits 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago*
Technically, you're wrong.
Source: Actual math.
The force of gravity (call it Fsurface) by the earth on an object of mass (m) on the surface of the earth is: 9.80*m
The force of gravity (Fiss) by the earth on an object of mass (m) in the ISS at the apogee of it's orbit (398 km above the surface) is: 8.68*m
(Fiss/Fsurface)*100 = 88.6%, which is hardly negligible. I'm not trying to be a dick but the point of calling it something besides micro-gravity is to avoid confusing people and this isn't helping.
[–]UnthinkingMajority 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Yeah, I worded it poorly. However, it is true that in a freefall reference frame, acceleration from gravity isn't something that has to be factored into force equations.
[–]molkhal 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
You and your fancy inertia!
[–]wartornhero 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago*
I do the same but I try to jump as high as I can and then proceed to think the earth has moved under me while I was in the air.
[–]basmith7 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
While you were in the the air the earth moved a hole under you.
[–]wartornhero 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Stupid phone :/
[–]molkhal -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 months ago
Blame it on the black phone.
[–]thisismikeb 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
good guess and point, here is your box of some sort
and NASA has a pair of drop towers they use to simulate microgravity as well, 2s and 5.5s drops if memory serves me right.
[–]pablogrb 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't it be "Next they would shut off power to the affected unit" instead of "Next they would shut off power to the effected unit"?
matches
[–]schrodingerkarmacat 43 points44 points45 points 6 months ago
Why exactly is this the case? I have a hypothesis, but am afraid to post in case I am wrong as I fear the resulting wrath of Reddit.
[–][deleted] 91 points92 points93 points 6 months ago*
It's because convection needs gravity to work. On earth, the heat from the candle causes the air around it to expand and rise as it's displaced by colder heavier air. The flame burns taller because it's pulled up with the hot rising gas. The colder air taking the place off the hotter air has more oxygen than the hot air being burned, so the flame burns brighter, too.
In antigravity, the colder, denser air isn't heavier, since there's no gravity, and doesn't get pulled down to push the hot air up. Instead, the flame just burns in the air around it until it uses up all the oxygen in the immediate area and goes out.
Hope that helps!
EDIT: also, what was your hypothesis?
[–]schrodingerkarmacat 13 points14 points15 points 6 months ago
Awesome response! Thanks! My hypothesis was very similar to yours. I figured that the produced CO2 rises due to its higher temperature, producing a greater concentration of CO2 above the flame, thus necessitating O2 coming in closer to the base of the flame, thus giving it its shape (more combustion at the bottom than the top due to increased oxygen levels). I just wasn't sure how gravity fits into changing the property of density of gases.
[–]Sryzon[] 5 points6 points7 points 6 months ago
how gravity fits into changing the property of density of gases.
Well it doesn't. Temperature changes the density, which causes the gas to become heavier.
[–]RaindropBebop 4 points5 points6 points 6 months ago
Temperature changes the density, which causes the gas to become heavier.
You do realize that there's no such thing as "heavier" without gravity.
So gravity does fit in, even though it's mostly about thermodynamics.
[–]Sryzon[] 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Yes I do realize that, but the OP made it sound like gravity was directly changing the gas's density.
[–]evilbadro 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
In an atmosphere, gravity determines gas density.
[–]Sryzon[] -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
Not directly. Gravity makes an atmosphere possible and that atmosphere puts gases under pressure. That pressure helps determine density. However, in an open environment such as Earth's atmosphere, it doesn't change much and 1 atm can be used without much loss in accuracy. Gas density is therefore determined mostly by temperature and the particular gas.
Density = Pressure(1 atm) * (Grams/mol) / (Gas constant x Temperature)
Outside of Earth's atmosphere, it does change it, but it's incorrect to say gravity determines gas density. It's pressure that changes it and pressure itself is determined by more than just gravity.
[–]schrodingerkarmacat 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
I see.. thank you, sir.
[–]aeztek 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago*
Good guess but I don't think this is quite right. In gravity, the gasses that are rising are the ones that are hot; CO2 may have a lot of excess energy after the the combustion rxn so it is often hot. However some of those hot gases are going to be H2O vapor and also constituents of the air above the flame that didn't participate in the rxn but absorbed the heat. Since any gasses approaching the flame from the top or to a certain extent the side will get hot, the only gasses capable of feeding the flame come from below and to the side.
Now out of a strong gravitational field words like rise and fall start to lose their meaning. So instead of up from center of gravity and down to center of gravity let us divide the space(around the candle) into hampered and unimpeded. First off, yes we can see the efficiency of the burn is reduced without a density gradient due to a strong gravitational field. This doesn't mean that convection has completely failed. If this was the case the flame would have a far more turbulent shape to it. As it stands though the shape of the flame is nearly a uniform sphere.
The spherical part of the flame shows that the forces that drive convection currents are still at work. The gasses in the flame that are hot don't want to be near the other hot gasses and move away in a maximum dispersal pattern. The sphere is present in space relative to the candle that is unimpeded.
The flattened part of the flame is the only part of the flame close to solid matter. This is clear from observing the orientation and shape of the wick. In the absence of inflow any hot gasses escaping the flame would hit the candle and bounce off into other hot gasses, making that path less favorable. This ruins the uniformity of the sphere, creating holes. Now because the rxn is self sustaining and nature abhors a vacuum as the hot air rushes out cool air rushes in. The only break in the outflow is near in the hampered space of the candle and the inflow pushes the outflow away from the candle.
[–]dattaway 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
Would the word "diffusion" accurately describe the movement of gas particles?
[–]aeztek 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
Yes, absolutely.
[–]schrodingerkarmacat 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
It's your cake day and you gave me the present! the gift of knowledge! How can I ever repay you?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
So what would happen if you cut the wick?
[–]aeztek 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
You would probably have a smaller ball.
[–]dracho 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
*microgravity, not antigravity ;)
[–]exdiggtwit 12 points13 points14 points 6 months ago
Go for it... this is r/space not r/askscience.
I'll give a go, without gravity the hot gasses don't get forced away so balls around the wick and slows the introduction of new oxygen... If some one was to blow on the candle in zero g, it should brighten up and look more like what we'd expect on earth.
I am not a scientist.
[–]WettestHat 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
That's the explanation I've heard. With no gravity, the fire has no direction. Same reason you can't burp in space.
Because in space, no one can hear you burp.
[–]I_am_the_Werewolf 13 points14 points15 points 6 months ago
I wouldn't say fire has no direction as much as is has all the directions!
[–]A_RedditUsername 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
If it had all the directions wouldn't it be larger then?
[–]I_am_the_Werewolf 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
Not necessarily, heat moves from high energy to low energy (entropy). Gravity can affect the particles that release heat (which creates the fire), the result is the more cylinder shaped fire on earth. In space, there is not net force in a single direction. So the fire particles spread outward evenly from the fire source. This creates a sphere type of look.
One of the biggest issues with fires in space is it's wild nature due to being unbridled from gravity. For example, You can stand next to a campfire on earth as most of the heat is concentrated above the fire but in space, the campfire would spread in every direction, spreading it's heat out in a more even spherical shape
That being said, I'm not a scientist and someone could probably explain it better than I can. Speedoflight's post about convection explains a bit more in the the detailed process of gravity and heat.
[–]A_RedditUsername -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
Nope that made sense. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me! Take some upvotes!
[–]SteelChicken 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
Burping does not require gravity.
[–]I_am_the_Werewolf 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
If I remember from "Packing for Mar" by Mary Roach correctly, you can burp but it's more like a small vomit session than the burp we know of on earth.
[–]boxergirl02 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
You're right, it doesn't require gravity, but that gravity really helps keep those solids in your stomach here on earth.
Interesting, I was actually more concerned with the shape at first glance. But you bring up an interesting point regarding size. I am inclined to believe your reasoning as it makes sense! (and also fits my initial hypothesis in my argument below).
[–]radiovstv 69 points70 points71 points 6 months ago
I asked this question once in elementary school, the only answer I got was "It wouldn't burn because there is no oxygen" That's deep south public school for you.
[–]GrixM[S] 73 points74 points75 points 6 months ago
Well, that would be true in space itself, but this is inside the ISS, with oxygen.
[–]radiovstv 58 points59 points60 points 6 months ago
I already knew that, and made that clear in the presentation of my question. The teacher couldn't quite grasp the concept of harboring oxygen in space.
[–]elitemrp 35 points36 points37 points 6 months ago
Did you inform her that Earth is in space?
[–]mbrodge 42 points43 points44 points 6 months ago
You sound just like that idiot that tried to tell me the Sun is a star!
[–]ballzach 6 points7 points8 points 6 months ago
hah, next they'll be telling us that we're inside a galaxy.
[–]arrjayjee 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Duh, everyone knows we're inside a galaxy because the Earth is the centre of the galaxy and our galaxy is the centre of the universe, just the way God made it.
[–]TomTheGeek 7 points8 points9 points 6 months ago
OMG can't breath!
[–]jugalator 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
It'd probably just put him in trouble.
"Don't you dare playing these tricks on me!!"
[–]GrixM[S] 49 points50 points51 points 6 months ago
Oh, right.
ಠ_ಠ
[–]smapte 7 points8 points9 points 6 months ago
Warden: "There's no air in space!" Homer: "There's an Air & Space Museum."
[–]Disgod 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Well duhh, don't you know that astronauts use special "space air"!
[–]anachronic -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
Again... this is in the deep south, where they believe that magic space Jews are responsible for creating the world 6000 years ago and that women were literally made from a man's rib.
It doesn't have to make sense and in fact is better if it doesn't
[–]spaceguy87 3 points4 points5 points 6 months ago*
Last year I went back to my old middle school to talk about my job. One of the 6th grade girls asked about fire in space. I said that when there is a fire emergency on the space station we shut down all ventilation and she was able to figure out on her own that we do this because fire will starve itself without fresh sir blown into it. I was very impressed.
[–]oktboy1 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
It is interesting to me because the environment is completely fake(man made) and still shows physics is the master of the universe because of simple tests like this.
[–]silent_p 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
Man, you ever watch "Thank You For Smoking"? Good movie, but they have that part where they're talking about having characters smoking on a space station or whatever. And they're like "wouldn't cigarettes explode in an all oxygen environment?" That was annoying...
/anecdote
[–]mikevdg 3 points4 points5 points 6 months ago
The Apollo, Mercury and Gemini space capsules used a pure oxygen atmosphere. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_1#Pure_oxygen_atmosphere
[–]andersontucker 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
Didn't they switch to a nitrogen oxygen mix after Apollo 1?
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
Yep. The Apollo 1 accident showed pure oxygen atmospheres are a bad idea, especially when combined with doors that open inwards...
[–]spaceguy87 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
Actually, an earlier ground test in the USSR that killed a cosmonaut is what first showed a pure oxygen environment was a bad idea. But the soviets never warned NASA even though the engineers involved were very worried American astronauts were going to die this way.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Ah.
In that case, The Apollo 1 accident showed Americans pure oxygen atmospheres are a bad idea, especially when combined with doors that open inwards.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 6 months ago
In the south here, too...at some point last year, someone wrote a letter to the editor claiming that greenhouse gases weren't a big deal because "the earth is bombarded with methane from space daily."
Bro...space is a vacuum...the fuck it is!
[–]mikevdg 9 points10 points11 points 6 months ago
Space is not a perfect vacuum. I can't find any references right now, but Earth receives a good deal (tons) of matter from space each day. Some of it will be methane, but there's probably not enough of that to be statistically significant in terms of climate change.
[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 6 months ago
That's what I meant. Earth gets hit with thousands of tons of matter every day, but practically none of it is gaseous.
[–]rynvndrp 10 points11 points12 points 6 months ago
Much of that matter is in a form that would combine and be part of the atmospheric gas. The space of the solar system is made up of a very low density gas of hydrogen in the interstellar medium and that makes up a major part of what earth picks up from space and would definitively be gaseous until it reacts with something.
Oh, kinda like a star. Hmm.
[–]ArtifexR 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
So cool looking! Reminds me of a hadouken.
[–]fireburt 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Micro-gravity testing is the shit. Last year I was working for a professor who does research with NASA. A guy in the lab I was in was working on a flame tunnel that simulates micro-gravity. They got to go to the Glenn Research facility in Cleveland and check out the big drop towers they have.
[–]unfortunatejordan 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Awesome! Reminds me of the video of water boiling in space.
I've always wanted to see video of this.
It's actually a candle in a shuttle/space station that is in free-fall (or trivially close to it). The Earth's gravitational field is not that much weaker in orbit than it is on the surface of the planet.
I don't understand why it's acceptable to use these terms (for example NASA uses them) when they simply aren't true. It confuses people since zero-gravity takes two words, zero and gravity, puts them together, and makes them mean something completely different than what they mean separately. If you took the literal meanings of "zero" and "gravity" and put them together you get a meaning that is exactly the opposite of what's going on in a 'zero-gravity' situation. It's irresponsible and has mislead many, many people; I can't count the number of people that have been confused in my first-year lab because of this - it makes it that much harder to teach people about free-fall and weightlessness.
[–]1123581321345589144b -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
I believe this has been on here several times. The flame on the right is a H2 + O2 mixture with perfect stoichiometry. The flame is burning in free-fall hence the shape change. The yellow color of the candle flame comes from carbon particles emitting light as they cool. The shape is due to convective flow, i.e., flow induced by difference in gas temperature. The flame on the right is not yellow because its only product of combustion is water (H2 + 1/2O2 = H2O). I cant think of the chemical reason its blue at the moment. Anyways, two very different flames, and in "space" means in regular or controlled atmosphere in free-fall (incorrectly called zero gravity). Or I could be remembering incorrectly.
[–]yeshmin -2 points-1 points0 points 6 months ago
Might this have been performed in a situation where the concentration of oxygen in the air is not as much as it would be on earth?
[–]shrillingchicken -2 points-1 points0 points 6 months ago
So it becomes more LED-like.
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