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How I feel as an atheist in the UK (imgur.com)
submitted 6 months ago by Dat_Matt
[–]UnholyGeezer 5 points6 points7 points 6 months ago
Really? I'd be mad. Because of shit like this:
http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2011/12/cameron-is-joining-the-right-wing-rush-to-religion
http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2012/01/islamist-stops-university-debate-with-threats-of-violence
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tim-minchins-song-about-jesus-cut-from-prime-time-uk-christmas-show/story-e6frfmq9-1226229157509
[–]Godontoast 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Ooh, the Tim Minchin thing was annoying. But in fact, there was outrage at that because it was dropped, such is the atheist population.
[–]HarukoBass 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
HOW DARE YOU NOT BE MAD.
[–]Thefourthdoctor 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
I actually LOL'd
[–]TwoNine 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Yet by law we are a Christian country.
[–]kissfan7 -2 points-1 points0 points 6 months ago
Why the living hell aren't you mad? In many cases, you have more of a reason to be mad than us. Our flag doesn't have a religious symbol on it. Our head of state is not the head of a sect. Our government does not have an official religion. Our First Amendment protects us against unnecessarily harsh libel laws. We don't have blasphemy laws. Fucking blasphemy laws in the 21st Century. In the last 100 years, we've never had an entire state go up in smoke over senseless sectarian fighting, fighting that may arise again because of segregated schools.
And at least we organize to fight for our rights in the courts and in Washington. Other than blowing £1 million on some pointless building, what have British atheists accomplished recently?
The arrogance of non-Americans on this site is not only annoying, but unwarranted.
[–]BurningWater 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
Because most people now. Especially at the 16-24 ages range know it's all bullshit. All you have to do is wait for the next generation to sweep through. The Monarchy is a pointless tradition and means nothing now. Flag tradition, you don't just up and change it without debate with the four main countries which use it. And yes we have stupid laws dating back to when the Roman's ruled us. It has been agreed we need to change and take out a lot of these laws because they don't make sense at all. Such as being able to shoot a Scottish man within the walls of York on a Sunday with a crossbow. N. Ireland has calmed down A LOT now. Within Atheism rising I can't see any fighting going off again. If it does I think it will be stopped very quickly. Official Religion is again pointless. Most cities are so multicultural now I can't see it being that way much longer. The first amendment may on paper say it protects you from those things, but it hasn't stopped people ignoring it has it? And fighting for our rights? We never really need to do it. At least on my part someones religion has never stopped me or impeded me in anyway. I went to a catholic school (primary and secondary) sent by my parents. They never pushed me to go there. I had to take religion, it was a compulsory lesson. By law we are taught evolution and all the sciences in religious schools. In my life I've never had to fight for my rights at all because generally a lot of people are accepting. Everyone I live with is an atheist. My housemates girlfriend believes in a higher power. My parents I think believe it God I haven't really asked them. My Dad is more agnostic and they know I'm an atheist. But NEVER has it caused any trouble for me or any of the people I've talked to. Last week a student for the christian organisation approached me to ask what my favourite movies were so he could get ideas on what to play for get together he was organising. I told him my top 5 movies and went on my way. He didn't realise I was an atheist but the point is, it isn't jammed down any ones throats. I could have walked away but I didn't. He could have asked my religious beliefs but he didn't.
[–]kissfan7 -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago*
"Because most people now. Especially at the 16-24 ages range know it's all bullshit."
The only thing worse than most of a population lacking knowledge is when most of the population has the knowledge but doesn't do a damn thing about it.
"Flag tradition, you don't just up and change it without debate with the four main countries which use it."
And why not have that debate?
"N. Ireland has calmed down A LOT now. Within Atheism rising I can't see any fighting going off again."
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-07-12/world/northern.ireland.riots_1_chief-constable-alistair-finlay-ardoyne-plastic-bullets?_s=PM:WORLD The source of the problem, as beautifully pointed out in Dawkins' documentary "Faith School Menace", is the school segregation which is still ongoing. This is partially because there is no separation of church and state.
"At least on my part someones religion has never stopped me or impeded me in anyway." It's taken your tax money.
"By law we are taught evolution and all the sciences in religious schools." As again pointed out in "Faith School Menace", many faith schools teach creationism. That's illegal in the US.
"Last week a student for the christian organisation approached me to ask what my favourite movies were[...]" Are you claiming this is only occurs in Europe?
If your only exposure to American secularists comes from a website about religion, you're going to assume that all we talk about is religion. This is like me assuming all Europeans know everything about soccer because the only Britons I run into online were soccer fans.
Let's be clear, the majority of Americans on this site do not even think about religion all day until they get on this site. The vast, vast majority of our conversations with religious people are not debates about the existence of gods. The only difference is that American atheists fight for rationalism while European atheists are generally too scared to stand up for themselves. Many of the few who do stand up like Hirsi Ali, Rushdie, or Hitchens either aren't native Europeans or emigrated from Europe.
[–]BurningWater 3 points4 points5 points 6 months ago
No it's because the vast majority of people I've met who do believe in God do not believe in creationism and accept evolution and that the Bible is largely wrong or outdated.
Flag tradition: because no one is bothered about it. I'm atheist and I don't care about it. I doubt many people even realise their is a religious meaning behind the flag.
I can't speak largely on the subject of N.I. I don't live there so I don't have second hand accounts but Irish people I talk to do not bring it up coming to Universities in England.
You can become exempt from paying taxes on religious organizations because they are classed as charitable organizations.
No we were not taught that is was fact. We were taught that it was there and many other religious beliefs.
No I am not. I did not say it only occurred in Europe.
Both countries have problems with faith systems. I don't believe America is like that as it is portrayed on Reddit just like you shouldn't jump to conclusions about the UK. We're all in the same boat here. I want a free country but we have to take steps towards it. Just like I said, if it starts to threaten me Ill do something about it
[–]kissfan7 -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 months ago
"No we were not taught that [creationism] was fact."
Again, I suggest Dawkins' documentary which shows that many taxpayer-funded faith schools teach creationism. Not all faith schools, but many. Just something does not occur in your life does not mean it never happends.
Bad science is the least of the problems these schools create. They often teach homophobia, misogyny, and sectarianism; discriminate on sectarian grounds; and are often the source of both physical and sexual abuse. You cannot ask to be exempt from the taxes used to pay for these schools. If you, like the OP "ain't mad" about that, why the hell not?
"No I am not. I did not say it only occurred in Europe."
Then why bring it up? The context of the statement clearly suggested you believe that that kind of conversation is a rarity in the United States.
[–]HarukoBass 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
You say non-Americans are arrogant on this site, and you flaunt Dawkins of all people as if what he says is fact?
Do you have any idea what it's like over here? I saw that documentary, it was complete bull-shit and was only made to fuel his own agenda. He misconstrued a lot of information, and some of it was just plain made up.
Me, the OP (I think), and obviously Burning water all went to catholic schools in Scotland. I personally went to 3. No one is taught creationism, that is not a thing because no one here is that retarded. We're not even taught that anything in the bible could remotely be construed as fact. Do you know why kids go to catholic schools? Because it tends to instil a better general moral sense, and that's it. 1hr a week of RE isn't religious indoctrination, when it's mostly spent watching School of Rock for the 4th time that year.
There is a small handful of schools in inherently sectarian areas that actually have sectarian problems. But if you knew anything about this place you'd know sectarianism is just another term for football hooliganism, it's not even religiously motivated any more.
Also, where the hell are you pulling "They often teach homophobia, misogyny... and are often the source of both physical and sexual abuse" from? Are you by any chance one of those people that saw that one time a priest touched a little kid and assumed ALL priests are kiddy-fiddlers? Where are you getting this stuff from, seriously?
This doesn't even cover the numerous misconceptions in your initial post.
[–]kissfan7 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
"He misconstrued a lot of information, and some of it was just plain made up."
Such as?
"Do you know why kids go to catholic schools? Because it tends to instil a better general moral sense, and that's it."
[Citation needed.]
But if someone wants their kids to go to a Catholic school, fine. Why should governments take the hard-earned money of non-Catholics to pay for this? It's not like the Church is short on cash.
"Are you by any chance one of those people that saw that one time a priest touched a little kid and assumed ALL priests are kiddy-fiddlers?"
Where did I say that? Please point out where I made this claim. You copied my exact quote, which said they "are OFTEN" the source of physical and sexual abuse. Often =/= always.
"But if you knew anything about this place you'd know sectarianism is just another term for football hooliganism."
In most countries, unless there is a deeper rooted problem, most sports rivalries do not cause riots. Especially when the two clubs in question are across the Irish Sea and the riots occur when an Old Firm match isn't even being held. As the article I linked pointed out, the cause was marches by the Orange Order, not a meeting of a Rangers supporters club.
I refuse to watch that pile of crap again, I watched it on C4 when it was first aired, and oh god the rage. You understand that Dawkins is perfectly capable of twisting information to fit his views, as many academics do? Why do you seem to think that you watched a documentary and that that is fact? You can't say I have no facts when all you have to use against me is biased information, and when you don't address the problems I pointed out with what you said.
Catholic schools have a different curriculum, in that we're required 2hrs of RE a week, and sometimes go to mass on special occasions. The government isn't throwing money at the church so we can have our schools, that's not how it works. There is a demand for schools, and whether they were Catholic or not the same amount of money, probably more actually, would be taken to fund schools.
Fair does on the often/always thing, but you still didn't give any evidence (oh, the atheist's precious evidence!!) that what you said was true, or that it was exclusive to faith schools and not just a thing that occurs in society generally.
Without first-hand evidence, living decades in an area riddled with 'sectarian strife', making sure you don't wear green in the wrong places, you can't assert that "most sports rivalries do not cause riots" in a country where countless riots have been started because of sports rivalries. There may more violence at the time of Old Firm matches, but we all know, and have seen, that sectarian violence begins 80% of the time because someone was wearing a football strip or singing football songs, 20% of the time because there was an Orange march outside Celtic Park. Ireland is different, and I cannot comment on that because I haven't been there long enough to experience that first hand. Although I forgot, you said down below that first hand experiences don't count.
"You understand that Dawkins is perfectly capable of twisting information to fit his views, as many academics do?"
This is like saying, "Human beings often lie. Bob is a human being. Therefore, when Bob is lying." Simply showing that Dawkins CAN twist information is not proof that he DID twist information.
"[Y]ou still didn't give any evidence (oh, the atheist's precious evidence!!) that what you said was true" You saw the flippin' documentary. You saw a teacher tell her students about creationism. Do you disbelieve your own ears?
"There may more violence at the time of Old Firm matches, but we all know, and have seen, that sectarian violence begins 80% of the time because someone was wearing a football strip or singing football songs" I was referring to Northern Ireland, not Scotland. The article I posted what not, I repeat, not about Scotland. Besides, western Scotland often has the same segregation in schools.
"Although I forgot, you said down below that first hand experiences don't count." They don't count if that's all you're relying on. You just seem to be thinking, "I know people say that that Greeks speak the Greek language, but I've never been to Greece, so I guess they're lying."
[–]SyanticRaven 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
They often teach homophobia, misogyny, and sectarianism;
No, they don't. I went to two Catholic schools and none of those were taught. In the 1 hour of RE that we got a week we learned about all different religions around the world and how they all follow a basic rule of be a good human, we talked about their obvious 'moral stories' and how they are to be taken as a lesson and not as a fact. They also pointed out obvious flaws in religion and what it can cause in the wrong persons hands.
None of these schools teach 'bad' science either. Religious teaching is kept out of the science classes for the obvious reason of them not being science.
Wow, wait... You learned about religion in RE?
I think I've seen the start of Amadeus about 40 times. That's what I remember.
Oh, and American Beauty once, that awkward scene where Kevin Spacey jacks off in the shower and the teacher is just like ":) I'm oblivious". I had this crazy American teacher who made us watch the Shawshank Redemption, and tried to justify it as being religious by saying that in that one scene (the cover box) Andy looks a bit like Jesus on the cross.
[–]SyanticRaven 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
That sounds awesome, but yeah I had to actually learn about religions and their teachings and holidays and all that annoying stuff. Nothing like knowning all about other religions only for people to never ask or talk about them.
Then again most people here seem to have the unspoken rule of don't talk about religion.
Well, not here here, you ask indirectly with the ol' "So what school did you go to?"
I'm kidding about RE, we did do stuff, though I don't remember ever really doing bible or christian stuff. I remember learning about Jewish culture in Britain, and a lot of stuff on Islam in general. Hinduism, a bit of shintoism for some reason. The general theistic ones. Though I don't ever recall being taught "There are these but they're WRONG" like I think that guy above is assuming how it's taught.
Awww I had this image that you spent all of RE just watching movies and nothing else. That would of been a good class.
And I never heard a teacher call another religion wrong, or say evolution is wrong either. Although they were all sure there was a creator.
[–]kissfan7 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago*
"I went to two Catholic schools and [homophobia, misogyny, and sectarianism weren't] taught."
As atheists should know, personal testimony is not evidence. I said faith schools "often" teach bigotry. I did not say all of them do. Again, just because YOUR school was one way, does not mean they are all the same way.
"None of these schools teach 'bad' science either."
"None"? Absolutely none? It would be one thing if you claimed that most of the schools didn't teach bad science, but you're claiming that absolutely none of them do? Again, I recommend "Faith School Menace".
Have you ever heard the rule of derailment? You used a few techniques from it to go against my view. Why is what you say more proof then the witness evidence I have given (the persons below too), and against my own say. There is much studies and evidence in this field as it is required for our government to do so to keep justifying paying for these schools. In fact look it up "HM Inspectorate of Education."
Also none of these schools do, because it is against our law to do so and any public faith school that does so has all of it's funding cut. That means the school can be shut down completely for malpractice. Science teachers who do teach this way are fired and have their teaching license removed.
[–]kissfan7 -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
"Why is what you say more proof then the witness evidence I have given[?]"
Your evidence proves that YOUR particular faith schools did not teach creationism or bigotry. Again, you proved that YOUR schools did not teach those things. That's all you've proved. You did not prove that there are no faith schools in the entire country that get away with teaching creationism or bigotry. It's like saying "I know that there are no blonds living in Canada because those two Canadians are not blonds."
Please show evidence that the school featured in "Faith School Menace" has been "shut down completely for malpractice" because they taught creationism. It's called Madani High School.
You did watch the film, right?
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[–]UnholyGeezer 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]Godontoast 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]HarukoBass 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Thefourthdoctor 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]TwoNine 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]kissfan7 -2 points-1 points0 points ago
[–]BurningWater 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]kissfan7 -1 points0 points1 point ago*
[–]BurningWater 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]kissfan7 -3 points-2 points-1 points ago
[–]HarukoBass 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]kissfan7 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]HarukoBass 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]kissfan7 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]SyanticRaven 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]HarukoBass 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]SyanticRaven 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]HarukoBass 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]SyanticRaven 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]kissfan7 0 points1 point2 points ago*
[–]SyanticRaven 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]kissfan7 -1 points0 points1 point ago