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[–]intonable_vab 697 points698 points ago

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[–]AintNoCrimeToRhyme 521 points522 points ago

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Here's the thing (ex-Disney animator trainee Calarts student), during this period of Disney's animation, they were dirt poor. They had laid off most artists and had very little to go. The period of some of these movies (101 Dalmatians, for example) they really didn't even have the money or time to afford clean up artists, so under the drawings you can still see the rough sketches. At this point, Disney decided to open their archives (They have an archive in their studio, literally tens of thousands of drawings are there for reference) and used panels to draw scenes, to get it done quickly and cheaply. You have to understand they were broke, had no workers and no time, and just needed to produce something to get money. And it did work actually! So they weren't being lazy really, just cheap.

[–]marfalight 25 points26 points ago*

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For anyone interested, the documentary Waking Sleeping Beauty was created by various Disney artists that were trained by artists that worked during the Jungle Book, Dalmatians, and Robin Hood era. It basically starts when many of the "Golden Age of Disney" artists (not the Disney Renaissance) were retiring (Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Fantasia, etc...) and some Disney officials actually started to think about phasing out the animation department (Roy Disney was one of the biggest protesters of this); the film then concludes with the creation and theatrical release of The Lion King.

I actually recommend watching Mickey Mouse Monopoly along with Waking Sleeping Beauty. The former is all about exposing Disney for the "heartless corporation" that it is (a bit over the top on some accusations, but I'll let you decide which ones are). While the latter is a rather intimate look into what life was like during the 80s and 90s for the animation artists. I know neither documentary is a perfect picture of what Disney is all about, but it helped me get a clearer image of it. :)

Edit: added in another sentence on WSB.

[–]AintNoCrimeToRhyme 16 points17 points ago*

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It was great movie! My mentor Marty was in it for a little bit, as well as my figure drawing teacher Kathleen. They were true artists; weirdos, stayed up all night working even though they were treated like crap and weren't really compensated, introverted yet eccentric, and above all were perfectionists. I miss them.

Edit:: For anyone who wants to check out these animators - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0466767/ http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0702784/

[–]Finalsaredun 137 points138 points ago

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Came here to basically post what you did. The studio was apparently hitting a bad rough patch and their team was not only tiny, but they still had to churn out full animated features with minimum resources (not only that, but apparently if The Jungle Book wasn't successful enough, the studio was going to crumble completely). Genuinely can't blame the studio for reusing old animation.

[–]AintNoCrimeToRhyme 160 points161 points ago

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You got it! Thanks for backing me on this. Truly, it was very sad they had to let so many animators go. A good friend and mentor of mine, Marty, did many storyboards, key clean ups, and character designs for many movies and characters. After years and years they let him go, told him he wasn't really needed with the new age of technology, etc. He's been doing shitty jobs ever since, however is doing his best to get back into it. I'm talking like, he bought a Mac and the best Wacom tablet money could buy, studied 3D animation so he could get his job back, sent in portfolio after portfolio and they still tell him no, he's just not what they need anymore. THIS IS THE BADASS WHO MADE GASTON. Breaks my heart.

[–]deathpocolypse 52 points53 points ago

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Whoa, would he do an AMA?

[–]AintNoCrimeToRhyme 79 points80 points ago

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I can ask! Marty is a very cool guy, but is very um..Shy, and introverted, he's kind of like a snail so to speak. Plus he's very shy about his work, every time I compliment him he just kind of smiles sheepishly and goes "gosh". But I'll definitely call him up and ask if he'd do it from my account or make an account or something!

[–]teej 82 points83 points ago

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My company is a game studio and we are hiring world-class 2D animators. Is there any chance you can put me in touch with him? We could use someone with exactly his skillset.

[–]AintNoCrimeToRhyme 35 points36 points ago

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I will definitely let him know and see if he's interested, thank you so much for letting me know! I'll be in touch.

[–]jaurk 11 points12 points ago

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thanks man.

[–]Right_on_BRO 18 points19 points ago

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Something seems different here...

[–]blokeski 2 points3 points ago

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Have some karma you awesome person.

[–]Emosewaosmi 42 points43 points ago

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With all this Disney talk, I imagined him saying "Gosh" like Goofy.

[–]AintNoCrimeToRhyme 6 points7 points ago

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LOL, oh golly. OH NO I can't unhear/unsee

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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Well, gawrsh!

[–]deathpocolypse 18 points19 points ago

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That would be awesome, reddit would love him.

[–]AintNoCrimeToRhyme 19 points20 points ago

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That's true, the more I wrote that out I was like "Oh wait, this is Reddit, not a club. He'll love it here!"

[–]tattybagels 2 points3 points ago

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please do. ps: are you in animation now? any tips on how to not starve and get in?

[–]AintNoCrimeToRhyme 1 point2 points ago

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I am not, I had to drop out of school due to money issues. I'm now doing tattooing, which I actually like very much and don't plan on quitting. I do a little bit of animating on the side, but hardly have any time. Getting in really comes down to a few things. 1) What do you know 2) who do you know? You cannot come into with a cocky attitude, thinking because you are good at art it will translate well to animation. You have to know what they are looking for, which actually is not always pretty, nicely put together finished work. If you enjoy people watching, I suggest grabbing a notebook, sitting outside and just drawing what passes by. Go to the zoo and draw animals as well (Calarts went NUTS for my animal drawings). Don't be afraid to show them rough, yucky unfinished sketches. Also, don't be afraid to apply for internships. You can honestly skip the art school scene all together (and save a lot of money) and just try to start at some small animation houses. The nice thing about art school is that it is a community of well trained artists who used to be, or in some cases still are, in the industry, and they are the "who do you know?" of this lesson. I was very lucky to grow up meeting many acclaimed artists who helped me along the way. But anyway, if you need any tips or someone to take a look at some work, I'm not the best around or anything but I'd be more than happy to give some helpful hints. Good luck!

[–]alex27123344 6 points7 points ago

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Am i the only one that read gosh in the goofy voice?

[–]Finalsaredun 11 points12 points ago

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That's a damn shame! It's so hard to keep a job in that field, and the fact that traditional animation is basically dead is so sad. Sure CGI is lovely, but people still love traditional animation too. There's a life that's created with just a pencil on paper that is very raw and sincere.

[–]AintNoCrimeToRhyme 13 points14 points ago

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Yup, art is a gamble, man. It's not a guaranteed, cushy job. Unless you're someone like John Lasseter and become a higher up or director. In that case, you're pretty much set. Otherwise, you're expendable and on call. I hate that Disney basically threw away 2D animation and replaced it with...I dunno. We don't really need 3D in my opinion, not from Disney AND Pixar, anyway. I was almost proud when they came out with Princess and the Frog, it was a step in the right direction anyway. However, it was made on Toon Boom (a computer animation program), so still lacked that..Special magic put into totally hand-drawn-on-paper-then-painted-cell animation style. But kudos for trying Disney.

[–]Finalsaredun 5 points6 points ago

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That's sort of what I think too, Pixar has had 3D animation nailed from the beginning, the Disney Animation Studio could've stuck with 2D for longer. I suppose the production value for 2D films is just too high, and requires way more animators and staff.

And thanks for clarifying what it was about Princess and the Frog that was different... Was it colored on Toon Boom or what? I know that they did all the rough animation in pencil but beyond that I wasn't sure. I still loved Princess and the Frog, don't get me wrong, but it could've been better. :/

[–]tobold 48 points49 points ago

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And they lived happily ever after, buying all the laws their hearts desired.

The End

[–]GloriousCow 6 points7 points ago

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On 101 Dalmations they were using a technique that bypassed the inking step - they would photocopy the pencils directly onto acetate before coloring. It was a cost saving measure but some have argued it also preserved the vibrancy of the animator's original lines.

edit: link

[–]kellykebab 4 points5 points ago

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According to Wikipedia:

The high production costs of Sleeping Beauty, coupled with the underperformance of much of the rest of Disney's 1959-1960 release slate resulted in the company posting its first annual loss in a decade for fiscal year 1960,[1] and massive layoffs were done throughout the animation department.

While Disney made a number of classic, solid films in the 30 years after Sleeping Beauty, it seems as though they did not earn universal acclaim again until Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, etc. Was the budget fall-out actually that long-lived or were there other factors at play?

Sleeping Beauty is possibly my favorite Disney film, due to its uncharacteristically stylized backgrounds, which I know really set them back, schedule and budget-wise.

[–]AintNoCrimeToRhyme 7 points8 points ago*

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Very well put, that was when the golden age of Disney began again, so they say. As soon as The Little Mermaid came out, Disney made their comeback, then the rest was history. And then, Michael Eisner came in and the rest was not history. Also I agree about Sleeping Beauty..Some of the old Disney movies, oh my God! The detail they put into each scene. Sit down and watch Pinocchio closely, the artists went to Italy to study the art, architecture, landscapes, everything. And it shows. Arguably one of the best hand-animated movies of all time.

But back to the topic of Disney being poor, they really were in a big slump in terms of budget, had to do with a lot of artists striking, leaving, and a lot of it had to do with Disney's passing, as well. Many artists left to work for Don Bluth (who left due to the crappy conditions of Disney's cheapness) and Disney was like well, shit, we have no money and no artists, so let's just do what we can and try to make money until we can be a high budget studio again!

[–]Marmaladez 2 points3 points ago

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I'd say they were more efficient than cheap.

[–]Chondriac 107 points108 points ago*

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Maybe I just don't understand how animation works but how are these really shortcuts? Aren't all of the frames hand-drawn? How exactly are they speeding up the process by making the characters do the same actions?

Edit: Yea I get it now; no need to be redundant

[–]YourLurkingUncle 125 points126 points ago

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Animator here. It's a small shortcut. They take the old cell or print and trace the new character over it with a lightbox. Still a lot of work and nothing to scoff about. Disney was all about making a format that worked and sticking to it. I'm sure all of you were sitting back in your chairs with a huge smile on your face and clapping your hands to that video.

[–]Kellianne 30 points31 points ago

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Yes. My first thought was: "If it ain't broke don't fix it' And I'm sure there were no children crying to their parents, "That was the same dance that Snow White did!" Then parents storm the box office....

[–]TheFlyingBastard 113 points114 points ago

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They don't have to redesign all those frames and painstakingly check if they're not going too fast or too slow I guess.

Personally, I'd call this effective, not lazy.

[–]Positronix 32 points33 points ago

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They can use the same character proportions and rigging. I'm not talking about computer animation rigging like with skeletal meshes, I mean rigging like how people are facing, what expression they use, the number of frames required to move between expressions and poses, etc.

[–]Petrak 44 points45 points ago

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They're massive shortcuts. Getting animation to look fluid and anatomically correct takes a painstaking amount of effort. Being able to reuse bits of motion means that the animators can put more time and effort into complex sequences.

[–]Clumpy 8 points9 points ago

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I'd rather have them do this than be lazy in other ways. Then again, it's amazing what Disney was able to achieve in the 90s without any recycling. Think of the difference between the fluid, vivid, detailed and epic animation and cinematography of The Lion King or Beauty and the Beast, and the pretty static animation of something like The Princess and the Frog, which seems to lack a lot of the pizzazz and movement of the Disney classics. (I always feel like kind of a dick for complaining about that movie, since it's at least a rare example of Disney trying really, really hard to give a crap about living up to their legacy.)

[–]mike8787 10 points11 points ago

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The shortcut is tracing. Free-handing drawing a scene to scale, figuring out proper perspective changes, and even just thinking up choreography is a lot of work. Tracing removes all of that work.

[–]mickeyblu 9 points10 points ago

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Drawing and animating from scratch is an entirely different skill to tracing.

[–]riding_qwerty 11 points12 points ago

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Interesting that you posted this. I was watching Braveheart last night and decided to read up on some of the factual history behind it...somehow wound up on the wiki for Disney's Robin Hood, where they go into these shortcuts in great depth. Thanks for that.

[–]n42 10 points11 points ago

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[–]Mriswith88 9 points10 points ago

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Wow, I just read that article the other day... Weird, huh? :P

[–]bulbousaur 20 points21 points ago

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That was very cool, thanks for posting it.

[–]HoverJet 10 points11 points ago

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Now I know why I always get the jungle book and robin hood movies mixed up.

[–]pluffmudpie 8 points9 points ago

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I particularly enjoyed the creepy French giggling halfway through.

[–]HyperbolicGeometry 39 points40 points ago

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Mind blown.

[–]Legerdemain0 40 points41 points ago

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My childhood. Duped.

[–]SUMYD 10 points11 points ago

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DUPEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[–]AriBBCP 6 points7 points ago

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"Reddit brought me here"

this needs to stop

[–]TheBoxTalks 276 points277 points ago

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I used the same paper 5 times between 9th grade and my 3rd year of college, so I can't really say much.

[–]whoops1995 57 points58 points ago

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what was it on?

[–]drunkglennbeck 621 points622 points ago

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Slipping American education standards.

[–]thatkenyan 80 points81 points ago

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Would he get a better grade each time?

[–]drunkglennbeck 37 points38 points ago

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In my head I had imagined the grade would remain static, but I suppose it depends on the curve of the slip.

[–]cheezis4ever 83 points84 points ago

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"Flat Stanley: A Psychological Analysis"

[–]7Snakes 31 points32 points ago

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Is it plagiarism if its your own paper?

[–]Ganthiel 118 points119 points ago

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Generally, as far as the school is concerned, yes.

[–]7Snakes 16 points17 points ago

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Is there a way they would be able to find out you had used it before?

[–]AmbiguousStatement 41 points42 points ago

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Occasionally, yes--Some schools require that you submit it to a plagiarism-checking site like TurnItIn. We were always told that it keeps a database of all previously submitted papers, so it can not only check you against the internet but against other papers...Including your own. Submitting it was not always required, though.

Aside from that, though, the only real way they'd find out is if teachers got talking for some reason.

[–]Lots42 96 points97 points ago

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Secretly, Turnitin.com is run by a small cabal of college students who are really ACING their tests.

[–]tonicandgin 5 points6 points ago

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i love the wird cabal. good choice.

[–]7Snakes 15 points16 points ago

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I never encountered TurnItIn or anything similar, good to know. I never reused my own paper, or got one from the Internet. I was just curious.

[–]dlink 8 points9 points ago

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Occasionally, yes--Some schools require that you submit it to a plagiarism-checking site like TurnItIn.

I've heard of such sites, but they make me wonder about copyright law. If I write a paper, then I hold the copyright to that paper. At no point have I given TurnItIn (TII), or any other company, the right to use my paper in such a way that turns a profit for TII. Surely this does not fall under Fair Use. Should I then, as the author and copyright holder, send a DMCA request to TII to request (demand) they stop using my paper in this way?

Shoot, if SOPA/ACTA passes, can I get their entire operation shut down?

[–]srs_house 2 points3 points ago

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Three words: Terms. Of. Use.

Ain't it a bitch?

[–]TheBoxTalks 7 points8 points ago

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I don't actually remember, and my laptop fried in 1999 and I lost all my papers. I edited it a bit each time, but it seemed to hold up pretty well.

[–]Mandinder 189 points190 points ago

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This is standard operating procedure, and to go after Disney?

Two words Hanna Barbera.

[–]radient 294 points295 points ago

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You're missing a colon.

Without corrective surgery, I'm afraid you're going to die.

[–]Mandinder 71 points72 points ago

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Is pedantry fatal? We may both be in trouble.

[–]thaytan 63 points64 points ago

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oh, is this the pedantry thread? Then I'd like to point out that we're all going to die, with or without corrective surgery.

[–]idislikekarma 36 points37 points ago

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The first letter of your sentence wasn't capitalized.

[–]Chondriac 42 points43 points ago

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You used the wrong form of your.

Just kidding. But you were totally about to check

[–]triscuit540 24 points25 points ago

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I looked up, not going to even lie

[–]Andorion 18 points19 points ago

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You missed you're period. Now your pregnant.

[–]CaitlinSarah87 9 points10 points ago

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who was period?

You are period.

[–]prodigytoast 7 points8 points ago

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Now that he's a dead man, he has no reason to be punctual.

[–]TimeWasterLord 43 points44 points ago

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Pretty sure every Scooby Doo episode used the same walk and run cycle.

[–]BrotherSeamus 45 points46 points ago

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Jokes on you. There is only one episode of Scooby Doo.

[–]Stormkitty 10 points11 points ago

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Directed by Alfred Hitchcock

[–]millionsofmonkeys 2 points3 points ago

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Two episodes. The one with Scrappy Doo is a piece of shit.

[–]derleth 8 points9 points ago

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... and most of the same plot, and all of the same gags ...

[–]ShallowBasketcase 38 points39 points ago*

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EVERY EPISODE EVER:

The gang winds up in some mysterious town with a mysterious mystery.

"Let's go investigate!"

Scooby and Shaggy (and sometimes Velma) go search one area while Fred and Daphne go somewhere unseen.

Scooby and Shaggy usually wind up in some sort of kitchen/restaurant and start eating all the food.

Shenanigans involving food.

Suddenly, the monster appears in some comical fashion.

The monster chases Scooby and Shaggy (and sometimes Velma) in a Benny Hill style musical sequence.

During the chase, they are reunited with Fred and Daphne. But not before Velma loses her glasses and has to crawl around on the floor looking for them! Expect her to mistake the monster for someone else.

Fred comes up with some elaborate plan to catch the monster.

The first thing Fred does when the monster is contained is savagely rip it's face off reveal that it's the dude who told them about the mystery in the first place.

And he would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those meddling kids and that dog!

Scooby. Dooby. Doo.

[–]Aegi 4 points5 points ago

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Life is the same thing yet most people seem to find that interesting.

[–]Avalon81204 3 points4 points ago

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Sometimes there's two mask's.

[–]sminja 5 points6 points ago

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This is a bit related

Essentially the video explains that animated characters wore neckties so that animators could animate the talking heads separate from the bodies and it wouldn't look so obvious when it was all stuck together. I'd call this far more ingenious than lazy.

If this gets reposted as a TIL, imma be sad.

[–]miguelb4u 73 points74 points ago

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Why is Owl the only non=stuffed animal (character) on Winnie the Pooh?

[–]Retanaru 64 points65 points ago

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Wait isn't the rabbit semi-normal too?

[–]CSIHoratioCaine 40 points41 points ago

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I have never considered this. Does it mean its a real owl?

[–]blooregard325i 50 points51 points ago

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Isn't the rabbit real as well?

[–]runtheplacered 169 points170 points ago

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Yes, in fact Rabbit even says to Owl at one point, "Owl, you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest -- and when I say thinking I mean thinking -- you and I must do it."

[–]Shiftia 115 points116 points ago

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For some reason that really creeps me out.

[–]Azurphax 11 points12 points ago

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Totally the wrong thing to be reading when you're trying to sleep-procrastinate on a sunday. I feel so bad for rabbit now.

[–]noprotein 3 points4 points ago

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It's been Monday for nearly 2 hours now!

[–]Kaiser_Winhelm 19 points20 points ago

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Huh, that explains why they're the intellectuals of the group, then.

[–]Bubblebath_expert 68 points69 points ago

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Woah, I never realized they were suposed to be stuffed animals!

I never understood why Eeyore had a detachable tail. That makes so much sense.

[–]GoatBased 62 points63 points ago

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All donkeys have detachable tails, tough. Whinney the Pooh is just one of the rare childrens stories that didnt cut corners and pretend that donkey tails are permanently fixed to their bodies.

[–]P4ngurB4n 51 points52 points ago

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I hate that I just googled that. :/

[–]Aesoa 4 points5 points ago

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The characters were based on his son's stuffed animals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._A._Milne#1926_to_1928

[–]Shane14120 2 points3 points ago

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Have you ever noticed how Eeyor is exactly like a heroin addict? He always sounds like he's burnt out on drugs, he's homeless, depressed, and he always has a needle in him (holding his tail on). I think there is some deeper meaning to this shit.

[–]ShallowBasketcase 2 points3 points ago

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The books were based on A.A. Milne's son and his toys. The woods where all of Pooh's adventures occur were based on some woods where his son would often play. I suppose Owl and Rabbit could be based on real owls and rabbits that his son encountered there.

Gopher's not in the books. That's just Disney fucking with the source material there.

[–][deleted] 987 points988 points ago

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Just wanted to say, it's not really laziness, they had to draw like a million frames and such.

[–]omplatt 509 points510 points ago

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if OP were to try and create an animation at the same level as Disney, then he or she would find creative way of cutting corners as well.

[–]Avatar_Ko 10 points11 points ago

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Especially if said animation was based off of film of an actor performing those motions.

[–]SwordVsDagger 144 points145 points ago

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Came here to say the same thing. Its hard work, even if animation is done at 30fps

[–]ipwnall123 249 points250 points ago

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I don't know why you said "even if it's done at 30fps" as if 30 is low frame rate to animate at. 30 is ridiculously high compared to the standard of ~24, which I believe Disney animates at. That's still tens of thousands of frames, but there's a huge difference in even one fps when you're making a 90 minute movie.

[–]asteampunklemon 161 points162 points ago*

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Yeah, its 129,000 frames at 24 fps versus 162,000 at 30 fps. 33,000 is quite a large difference for a debatable payoff.

[–]ieffinglovesoup 171 points172 points ago

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People like you are the reason I love reddit. I never feel like doing the math, but there's always someone who already has.

[–]IFeltLikeDoingMath 367 points368 points ago

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I wish I had gotten here 25 minutes sooner.

[–]unlimited_hate 45 points46 points ago

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Don't you mean,

I wish I had gotten here 1500 seconds sooner.

[–]PaladinZ06 31 points32 points ago

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If I had a nickel for every redditor I run into with OCD, I'd have $32.47

[–]oarabbus 20 points21 points ago

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impossible

[–]pizearke 29 points30 points ago

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Yeah, this would only work if one were able to be 3/5ths of a person!

I'll leave it at that.

[–]RoflCopter4 60 points61 points ago

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This is a rather limited novelty account.

[–]papa-jones 76 points77 points ago

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I don't think that it is a novelty account.

[–]stenskott 92 points93 points ago*

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Most disney films were animated at 12 fps, with each frame shown twice. They would only go up to 24 if the character did fast movements.

Here's an emample of full 24 fps animation, i'm sure you can tell how much more fluid it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9uPQH_L9L4&feature=player_detailpage#t=121s

Ironically, films with economic interests never animate in full framerates, it's only weird experiements and propaganda that gets that treatment... More on wikipedia

*Edit, formatting

[–]mrpopenfresh 7 points8 points ago

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I think Don Hertzfeldt of rejected fame did 24 fps as well.

[–]iamafriscogiant 11 points12 points ago

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What the fuck was that? Is that really some crazy Russian propaganda? I get the feeling they used that framerate because they were trying to depict a crack fueled acid trip. At least that's what I felt was happening. I think if you cut the framerate in half it would have been a romantic comedy of a nice fellow struggling to find a match.

[–]stenskott 4 points5 points ago

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Yeah, i first found it on this dvd set.

Some of the films on there are really amazing, but Shooting Range is the most well known, it's kind of up there with Triumph of the Will when it comes to Propaganda as Art. Unfortunately, none of the western propaganda is half as interesting.

[–]wavefunction84 38 points39 points ago

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If you're going to call any kind of animation lazy, you'd have to go after Japanese animation because traditional anime used only a fraction of the number of frames that American animation used. This had to do more with budget than with "laziness" though.

Anime (still) cuts way more corners than it's Western counterpart. In some cases, it's closer to a comic book in the number of frames drawn than it is to a Disney movie.

[–]fritzcharleston 7 points8 points ago

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While this is true in some cases, so is the exact opposite where anime just goes nuts and is ridiculously complex.

[–]crinklypaper 14 points15 points ago

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Watch something like a Miyazaki film. You could argue something like Southpark being lazy animation.

[–]wavefunction84 35 points36 points ago

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Miyazaki didn't create serial anime, though. He made major films with relatively large budgets.

I'm not trying to pan all Japanese animation, just a large amount of the "serial anime" you see aired on TV. In my opinion, films like AKIRA and Miyazaki's films kick Disney's ass in every way imaginable.

[–]coolstorybreh 2 points3 points ago

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I love AKIRA. Not a crazy fan of the story but I loved the artwork.

[–]magicalmilk 7 points8 points ago

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Even so, I wouldn't say SP has lazy animation. It's only following original, which must have been a pain in the ass to shoot (paper? ugh). It's more of like a "style choice."

[–]seifd 13 points14 points ago

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I think it depends on the film. I recall reading about some of Disney's stuff being shot in twos (that is, each frame is shown twice in the film, making it 12 fps) in The Illusion of Life.

[–]ipwnall123 3 points4 points ago

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Right, it's generally only faster movements and things that are animated on all singles at 24, otherwise the movie would take nearly a decade to make I'm sure :P I just said 24 as a sort of maximum to compare to the 30 he had stated.

[–]circa1015 25 points26 points ago

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BUT MY CPU RUNS MINECRAFT AT 60FPS

[–]JoxerTheMighty 4 points5 points ago

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I remember seeing a documentary about this history of animation, and how it wasn't expected to last as a medium for film and television, simply because it was so costly and time consuming to make. Recycling such as this by Disney was common. It was Hannah Barbara who essentially saved the medium by figuring out how to avoid having to repeatedly draw bodies: they made all their characters wear neckties so that they could animate their bodies and heads on separate cells. I also recall that there was a similar motivation behind having each character have a catch phrase, so that they could repeat both animations and voice recordings.

[–]ndchristie 67 points68 points ago

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For those curious :

The Jungle Book is listed at 78 minutes, so it probably reached about 100,000 cells even with lots of things done on 2's, many scenes using panoramic hand-painted background.

The particular scene is originally from a high-budget production using the best of Disney's staff, and it was until the 90's one of their most highly acclaimed features. Not so for the early low-budget Winnie the Pooh films, which were released as featurettes without the staff, time, or money to plan out such a grossly complex animation (again, on 1's, or 24fps, because it moves too quickly to hold any frames). Not only was content from The Jungle Book recycled here, it was also recycled into Disney's Robin Hood, which also borrowed from Snow White.

Judge Winnie the Pooh only as a series of low-budget, 25-minute films until you get to Seasons (truth be told, i don't know which Pooh this is from, only that it doesn't look like Honey Tree), and even then still only judge after you've gone through the trouble of drawing and painting 25-100k cells with dozens of backgrounds, by hand, filming them by hand (precisely), developing and color-correcting the film (by hand...), you see where this is going.

[–]giantsparklerobot 16 points17 points ago

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Starting with Snow White Disney also pioneered tracing over live action video to help their animators draw more complex high action scenes. For instance the dance sequence in Snow White was based off video of a girl in a dress dancing. This same source footage was used as a reference in Robin Hood's dance sequence and likely a few other movies.

One of the things Disney (as in Walt) wanted out of Snow White was a less cartoony look. While some animation tropes were used realism was the order of the day since it was the first feature length animation.

[–]FredFnord 9 points10 points ago

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Pooh animations were wonders of efficiency. Check out Winnie the Pooh and the Blustery Day for the best low-budget depiction of an acid trip ever.

[–]Ianras 28 points29 points ago

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Yeah, cost cutting is probably a better way to put it. Animation is expensive.

[–]musicalsteve 11 points12 points ago

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What this guy said. And the fact they're running a business and trying to keep costs down as much as possible. And kids probably won't notice.

[–]KaziArmada 12 points13 points ago

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Fuck, I watched the hell out of both these things when I was younger...I never knew till just now.

So...Mission accomplished!

[–]Flonn 63 points64 points ago

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Not laziness; 'twas homage, paid to a fine classic.

[–]TexTourettes 147 points148 points ago

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Scumbag Redditor: Calls Disney animators lazy, prefers Japanese animation @2 frames per second.

[–]JohanGrimm 17 points18 points ago

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Very much this, Disney's anything but lazy.

[–]derleth 2 points3 points ago

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Well, no. That is lazy, but it is lazy in the good way that still leaves a good product. (That is, good on a technical level irrespective of what you think of the artistic merits.)

Compare to Hanna-Barbera's TV output from the late 1950s up through the early 1990s, which is lazy in the bad way that gives you a degraded product. (Again, degraded at a technical level, but remember that Hanna-Barbera also gave us Scrappy-Doo. Fuck Scrappy-Doo.)

[–]caseyvill 11 points12 points ago

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I think people forget this was before the days where you can just tweak a wire frame change a skin then export.

[–]lud1120 2 points3 points ago*

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They had budget constrains in the 70's. So they re-used animation.

[–]phongbong 9 points10 points ago

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Hmm, I'm not sure if you're joking but the backgrounds in all animation is just one finely painted picture. You then have all the other frames(possibly hundreds) of the characters and movable props done individually. But this is Clearly an homage to a tree some one at Disney liked as it's painted completely different and shaped different(upper left root is cut off in jungle book and it's draping into the water in winy the pooh.

[–]Artuir 2 points3 points ago

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Backgrounds do not need to be redrawn every frame.

[–]Annieone23 152 points153 points ago

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This just proves that Chrisopher Robin's Hundred Acre Woods is the same wooded area that Mogli traversed hundreds of years ago in The Jungle Book.

Christopher Robin is probably a white South African child, hence the British twang to his voice, and the jungle has become a much safer forest due to encroaching urbanism and over poaching from early safari expeditions.

Disney is just extremely dedicated to creating an incredibly intertwined and deep mythos surrounding its movies. They are all connected.

[–]slpz 87 points88 points ago

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the jungle book takes place in india

[–]codeki 68 points69 points ago

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It'd explain the wild Tiggers in Pooh.

Christopher Robin is probably a child of an British Colonist in India, hence the British twang to his voice, and the jungle has become a much safer forest due to encroaching urbanism and over hunting from early colonists.

[–]Shup 19 points20 points ago

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Tiger in Jungle Book. Tiger in Hundred Acre Woods.

The dots are connecting slowly.

[–]wisdumb 4 points5 points ago

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You can't explain that.

[–]thechoclatewonder 41 points42 points ago

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Well fuck you too.

[–]crinklypaper 16 points17 points ago

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South American India.

[–]BrineFine 266 points267 points ago

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Whoa, knee jerk reaction. Disney is responsible for some of the most painstakingly detailed and labor intensive western animation there is. C'mon man!

[–]SubtleMockery 148 points149 points ago

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Not during that period. It's the reason Don Bluth left Disney. He was disappointed with the quality of animation Disney was producing. So he was like "FUCK ALL Y'ALL. LAND BEFORE TIME. BAM." Sadly, shortly afterward, Disney entered the renaissance with The Little Mermaid, and went on to completely crush most of Bluth's films at the box office.

[–]irrelephantusrname 165 points166 points ago

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Is that when the Bluths went into housing development?

[–]super-rad 97 points98 points ago

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Never should've given up animation rights...

[–]forevertrombone 14 points15 points ago

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flawless

[–]givequicheachance 13 points14 points ago

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There's always money in the Bananimation stand.

[–]Support_HOOP 41 points42 points ago

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DISNEY SET UP GEORGE BLUTH! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW

[–]Lots42 34 points35 points ago

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We got Land Before Time because Bluth thought Disney sucked ass?

I'm not sure what to think about that.

[–]VWSpeedRacer 20 points21 points ago

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We got the first Land Before Time because Bluth thought Disney sucked and I think it's a decent film. The follow-up double-digit sequel fest was simple greed and Bluth had no part in it.

We also got American Tale, Secret of NIMH, Pebble and the Penguin, and some other greats. I'd love to see what he could do in a collaboration with Pixar, but I doubt it's in the cards.

[–]Aero_ 4 points5 points ago

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And now I have "There're no Cats in America" stuck in my head...

[–]P4ngurB4n 2 points3 points ago

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I love Secret of NIMH. :o

[–]beyondoasis 5 points6 points ago

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The Secret of NIMH.

Apparently it's still a secret.

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points ago

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You still have to wonder if Disney wasn't still at the forefront of the animation community during this admittedly long period ("Jungle Book" was 60s, Winnie the Pooh 70s, LBT 80s.) While it is true the Disney's animation division suffered as the company tried to move toward live-action and other venues, Even their less-notable releases beat the hell out of, say, most anime from the time, or 90% of the other Western animation companies.

Late 80s seemed to be a renaissance for all, not just with The Little Mermaid, but with TV animation, anime (fucking Akira!), and Bluth's warm, fuzzy talking animal flicks.

[–]arandomJohn 42 points43 points ago

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go back and look carefully at the actual animation in Little Mermaid. It is pretty crappy. Characters are flat, without shading, lines are messy, and backgrounds pretty blah. It is pretty similar to the works from the 70's that get so much hate.

The music was what relaunched Disney animation.

[–]Pugolicious2244 4 points5 points ago

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Who Framed Roger Rabbit relaunched Disney animation and animation in general.

[–]triscuit540 6 points7 points ago

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What were some of Bluth's films? I've heard of the land before time but what else did he do?

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points ago

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fivel goes west, all dogs go to heaven... dragon's lair, maybe? that's not really a movie but that too, I think.

[–]pinkiswink 7 points8 points ago

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Thumbelina. Anastasia. Troll in Central Park.

[–]derleth 5 points6 points ago

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An American Tail, All Dogs Go To Heaven, and The Secret of NIMH.

[–]pmbuko 20 points21 points ago

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If you are a programmer, should I call you lazy for reusing code?

[–]subliminali 17 points18 points ago

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This comment is likely going to be unseen by anyone but an even greater irony of this picture is that both characters were voiced by the same person. My Uncle, Bruce Reitherman, was the voice of Mowgli and Christopher Robin when he was a kid.

[–]boonaboo 15 points16 points ago

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Lazy? All animation was hand-drawn frame-by-frame during that era. Compare that to the contemporary usage of Flash.

[–]bronkula 54 points55 points ago

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If you actually look at it, it is merely referenced from the same photograph. It is not copied outright. Even when they reused the same animation reference (which have been linked in this thread) they had to be redrawn, since this was all before computers were used for animation.

[–]CGord 48 points49 points ago

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This is what management was put in place to do.

"WHY THE FUCK DO YOU NEED TO CREATE DANCING ANIMATION FROM SCRATCH, WE HAVE TONS OF IT TO USE, JUST MAKE IT FIT THIS MOVIE YOU WORTHLESS ARTIST FUCK"

[–]Bored_At_Night 26 points27 points ago

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In all seriousness, there's absolutely no relevance to the specific moves of the celebratory dance in terms of plot progression or story detail. Redrawing all of that would be a complete waste of both time and money.

[–]radient 39 points40 points ago

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ITT: People without any understanding of how the Animation / Film / Television industry works dishing out arm-chair critiques.

[–]MangoFox 2 points3 points ago

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ITT: One person gives arm-chair critique, everyone else gives Disney an eblowjob.

[–]geoffryb 26 points27 points ago

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http://youtu.be/X5OwM5zA-cQ has some other examples just like that. Disney reuses a lot of their animations.

[–]Deluxx00 7 points8 points ago

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Dude.. what the hell is she saying? ಠ_ಠ Interesting video tho, can't believe how alike they look (or are)

[–]winecan 5 points6 points ago

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That was... beautiful.

[–]zoidbort 16 points17 points ago

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[–]earthboundEclectic 12 points13 points ago

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To be fair, magical princess dances are all the same anyways so Disney was just being efficient. The rest is pretty gross, for all that I still love those movies to death.

[–]carrie_bee 6 points7 points ago

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Did the music in the background creep the fuck out of anyone else?

[–]evanthesquirrel 3 points4 points ago

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I knew it!!!!

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points ago

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THATS NOT LAZY, You just proved my theory that all Disney movies are about the same people in alternate universes. Disney knows the secret of the universe and flaunts it in front of our noses.

[–]MutantSharkPirate 9 points10 points ago

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laziness level: disney (see 3d rereleases from 1990s titles)

[–]toafer 8 points9 points ago

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lets not forget the lion king

http://www.kimbawlion.com/rant2.htm

[–]akfekbranford 33 points34 points ago

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The jungle book was a 78 minute film.

That's 4680 seconds. Disney used 24 frames to film one second of animation. That's over 112,000 frames of animation created by hand.

And you say lazy?

Unoriginal and/or uncreative maybe, but lazy?

No.

[–]finalxcution 17 points18 points ago

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Generally, Disney films were shot on 2's meaning each drawing was held for two frames. That would bring it effectively down to 12 fps, while the film continued to run at 24 fps. On average, that would mean they only drew half as many frames as you suggest. That's still no easy feat though.

[–]Metalheadzaid 7 points8 points ago

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Repost level: Reddit gold.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]Wxg58 12 points13 points ago

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Laziness level: Michael Bay

[–]gotnate 2 points3 points ago

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Is that the same shot but with a CG robot added?

[–]ivanman 4 points5 points ago

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[–]eldudesterino 17 points18 points ago

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This post is proof of OP's total ignorance of animation. The Jungle Book is the furthest thing from Lazy animation. From a pure animation aspect it is one of the best pieces of hand drawn animation ever produced. Say what you will about the story but to assert that the animators were lazy is just plain wrong.

[–]TheBob77 4 points5 points ago

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in those days they had to hand draw every single frame, i don't blame them at all for recycling scenes

[–]smitty046 3 points4 points ago

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When you have to actually draw every frame, that's not lazy at all.

[–]Bany1911 4 points5 points ago

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It's been pretty common practice to do things that cut costs since the cost of making Cartoons was astronomically high and took a very long time to do since it all had to be hand drawn. There are several instances of this throughout the history of cartooning, if you go through The Jungle Book, Snow White, and Robin Hood you will see shot for shot scenes from each movie all in the name of saving costs and time.

Disney isn't the only one the cut costs by far the most successful and influential is Yogi Bear's Collar.

[–]SL1MJ1M 2 points3 points ago

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At least they don't recycle story arcs.

[–]reznorhurt 2 points3 points ago

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I fucking LOVED the Lion King

[–]Lots42 2 points3 points ago

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Come on dude, give them a break. They literally did not have computers back when these films were made.

[–]gaberax 2 points3 points ago

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Re-Animator: Disney

[–]Briscotti 2 points3 points ago*

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If I recall correctly it was pretty well known that after Sleeping Beauty, Walt Disney Animation Studios took huge budget hits because the films they were producing weren't as profitable as Disney was hoping for. As a result, animators were forced to reuse previous animation sketches. This period lasted from One Hundred and One Dalmatians (1961) to The Great Mouse Detective (1986), covering The Sword in the Stone, The Jungle Book, The Aristocrats, Robin Hood, The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, The Rescuers and The Fox and the Hound. The Black Cauldron was an attempt at something highly original but was a huge financial failure that shut down the animation studio. Animation is expensive. So it's not so much "laziness" as it is "financial necessity."

I'm like 95% sure this is all covered in 2009's Waking Sleeping Beauty about the Disney Animated Renaissance that was brought in by the financial success of Oliver & Company and The Little Mermaid. I recommend the documentary for any Disney animation fan.