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Not a difficult concept. (i.imgur.com)
submitted 6 months ago by atlas44
[–]Harry_B_C_Dresden 182 points183 points184 points 6 months ago
Atheism is the lack of belief in a god. Atheism has nothing to do with one's opinion concerning abortion. Please stop posting this stuff on r/atheism.
[–]masuabie 8 points9 points10 points 6 months ago
Exactly, it's like Obama said (Can't believe I'm quoting him) "My religion has a stance on abortion, but I can not use that as a reason to make a ruling for or against it, I must use logical facts." (Also that's paraphrasing his words)
But the point is, just because a religion feels one way about it, doesn't mean it is a religious topic. It is a topic on it's own. So, I agree, it does not belong in r/atheism.
[–]joispeachy 19 points20 points21 points 6 months ago
Thank you x 1,000.
[–]jim-_- 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
I imagine you just came...
[–]Draxxar 5 points6 points7 points 6 months ago
I see this argument made regarding abortion and stuff, but why don't I ever see it concerning all the posts about gay people?
Don't get me wrong, gay people should by all means have the same rights that a heterosexual person has, but I don't see how being gay relates more to atheism than abortion does.
[–]Harry_B_C_Dresden 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
The same thought crossed my mind. I think the difference is that posts related to sexual orientation on r/atheism usually relate directly to scripture and religious belief as opposed to a post solely related homosexuality. For example, if someone posted a picture of a gay man with the title "This man is a hero," I would say that doesn't belong on r/atheism even if it's true. If, however, someone posted a picture of a Phelps protester with hateful posters next to a gay soldier with the title "Only one of these men is a hero," this post arguably does belong on r/atheism.
[–]Violentlamb 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
its not to be doubted that many atheists share this opinion, still that it doesn't have anything to do with atheism, we atheists care about whats right and therefor we will say something if people do stuff like this just because of their religion.
[–]pornmonger 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
I disagree. A vast majority of pro-life arguments and supporters are rooted in Christianity not existential philosophy or science.
[–]bananosecond 6 points7 points8 points 6 months ago
Then if you see someone opposing abortion for a religious reason, post it. This picture has been posted countless times here and has nothing to do with atheism.
[–]Balltron9000 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Agreed. Plus the last picture is a fertilized egg while the first is not, and is not a very consistent comparison.
[–]Senor_Wilson -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
Correct, atheism on reddit is about being mad about christians pushing their beliefs on them, and them pushing their ideas on their christian friends/family/strangers.
Downvotes here we come.
[–][deleted] 6 months ago
[deleted]
[–]apple4960 6 points7 points8 points 6 months ago
Christopher Hitchens was pro-life. You can believe that human life has value even if that value wasn't instilled by a god.
[–]TheCommanderFluffy 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
But he was referring to a fetus as an "unborn child" rather than an embryo. To say that he was pro-life, he never protested abortion... Instead he preferred teaching kids proper use of contraceptives to prevent the need for an abortion.
I think the label of Hitchens being, although true, misleading in the most.
[–]OKImHere 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Many religious people believe Jesus was crucified, placed in a tomb, and sealed off with a huge rock. So atheism is relevant to one's opinion concerning rocks.
[–]SuperbusAtheos 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
and trees, nails, sponges, wine/ vinegar, water, spears, and just about everything else in this world.
[–]ReyTheRed 32 points33 points34 points 6 months ago
It is not a difficult concept, but it will develop into one. The issue of when abortion is morally justified, and when it should be made illegal is pretty complex.
[–]deityofanime 3 points4 points5 points 6 months ago
There is no real line marking when something stops being cells and when it starts being a person, this it why it's so hard (though anything before brain development is fair game imo)
[–]ReyTheRed 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
It never stops being cells, it does start being a person. When exactly that happens isn't clear, which is why it is a difficult issue.
[–]Machiavelli-K -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
I think that maybe it should be a gradual thing instead of an instant promotion.
[–]QuixoticTendencies -2 points-1 points0 points 6 months ago
But death is binary. You either die, or you do not. There must be a point at which killing a fetus is considered murder, prior to which it is not. In the future, it will probably be possible to gauge sentience with a machine, and then we will be able to set a measurable point of sentience at which something is a feeling person. Before then, we are forced to resort to the crude approximation of sentience the passage of time gives us.
[–]Machiavelli-K 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
It isn't an instant change, so why would you even think of comparing it to death? ಠ_ಠ I'm almost completely certain it gains consciousness gradually the same way it gains everything else.
Although people may have a hard time comprehending it (due to how little they think about life beginning in contrast to life ending), maybe it would be most appropriate to treat it as a minimal murder at the beginning and increase the label of severity as it develops. We rank murders that way anyway (pulling the plug, execution, self defence, bugs/animals) so it shouldn't be hard to imagine viewing the "immoral severity" of an abortion increasing over time.
[–]QuixoticTendencies 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Agreed.
[–]pornmonger 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
What does science define death as?
[–]VWftw 5 points6 points7 points 6 months ago
No longer being alive.
Then at what point are you alive? There is still nervous activity and cell replication after death.
[–]VWftw -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
You're alive from before the sperm and the egg unite. Life's an unbroken chain that threads from the beginning of life to us. If you want to talk about abortion related "when is it a life" you might be thinking of when are you a person, to which I'd say, if you're lucky its usually after the age of 23.
[–]Selachian 62 points63 points64 points 6 months ago
It's not that simple.
[–]YesButNoWaitYes 7 points8 points9 points 6 months ago
Agreed. This is just trading one extreme simplified version of an argument for the other by adding the word "not."
[–]Gippin 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
While I cant claim to have a strong opinion either way. I would like to say I wish people would either decide that life is sacred and must be protected regardless of it is OR that the line can be dawn at some well defined point. Rather than proclaim the fetus sacred until its old enough to be sent to hell for thinking the wrong things.
[–]MixedUpZombie -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
yeah, it really isn't that simple. I'm all pro-choice, but i can understand people who are not. also, this is another repost.
[–]heartgoesbang 28 points29 points30 points 6 months ago
1) egg is not fertilized. And if you ever took chick embryology in high school ou would agree that a fertilized, partially formed chicken fetus is indeed alive. mine was moving and looking at me with sad horrible little baby chick alien eyes :'( 2) acorns are plants. they grow differently and the resulting tree has no nerve ending and/or conscious thought which makes that pont completely null 3) though funny, still not a valid point. 4) At that stage, no that's not a human, but fetuses grow very quickly and I for one consider them alive around week six of the pregnancy because that is when their heart starts beating. not saying you should believe the same, but I'm not an idiot for believing that. One's stance on abortion is completely based off of one's moral center. It's not the same as discussing religion. there is no correct answer.
[–]jj_the_wonder_pup 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
if you ever took chick embryology in high school
Shit, we did that kindergarten and I realized this.
[–]heartgoesbang -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
Unfortunately I went to a catholic high school so we were lucky to do any sort of dissection.
[–]Meridicia -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
No one is saying that the fetus isn't alive, just that it isn't a person.
[–]Xcaliber_2276 4 points5 points6 points 6 months ago
I am an Atheist. Let's get that out of the way.
When is it alive? backup up your statement with empiricism.
[–]SockofBadKarma 5 points6 points7 points 6 months ago*
I love Sorites Paradoxes. :)
I'll take a shot at this, though. It's alive in the technical sense at the moment of conception, because the two cells that made it are alive. However, its personhood is called much further into question.
I'd propose two cut-offs for determining personhood. The first, and more reasonable one, is this: if the fetus can survive outside of the womb with the help of modern science, at such a time when its at least 50% likely that the fetus will be viable until typical infancy, then that's a person.
The second one is a bit more strict. When the fetus has developed to the point where its brain is at least 80% developed and it can breathe entirely on its own, then it's a person.
I'm inclined to accept the first one because we might as well utilize modern medicine, and because accepting the second definition would push dangerously into third-trimester abortion territory.
Edit: Empiricism. Right. Well, personhood is most commonly defined as the state or condition of being a person, and a person is distinct from a human in that it is a human with unique traits and behaviors. Since the brain is literally what makes us human, a fair percentage of its development should be a trait of personhood. Further, since being a person requires being alive (a human corpse is still a human but no longer a person to anyone other than the bereaved), the ability to at least partially sustain one's own life must be a trait of personhood. Machinery/modern medicine can be used as crutches for this purpose for obvious reasons (the most obvious being that if we didn't include their usage as acceptable, then people who were using wheelchairs or pacemakers or respirators wouldn't be considered people).
Thus, if a human fetus can survive outside of the womb, even with large amounts of medical assistance, I can consider it a person. The survival rate should be over 50% simply because of majority probability. If a fetus cannot currently survive to adequate capacity outside of the womb, it is not yet a person.
[–]Xcaliber_2276 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
Good metric. My personal thought is that if the baby has a nervous system, and can feel pain independent of the mother, it shouldn't, unless the mother will die as a result of it's birth, be aborted. I impose that on no one and vote pro choice, though.
[–]sk8withk8 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
So if science makes it to a point where we can fertilize and grow a baby completely independent of a human womb, will abortion be immoral at any point?
[–]slpceline 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
I think the point SockofBadKarma was making was that a fetus is a person when it can survive outside the womb. If we had a way to extract a live fetus from a woman's uterus at say, 10 weeks' gestation and grow it the rest of the way in an incubator, then it might make sense to do that in lieu of a 'traditional' abortion. The result for the woman would arguably be the same (i.e. no longer pregnant with unwanted fetus) and a deserving couple could then adopt this baby. Everyone wins!
If, on the other hand, we could grow embryos to full-term outside the wound, but had no way to extract a fetus from a woman's womb while keeping it alive, then the original argument holds: if it can't survive outside the womb, it's not a person.
[–]VelcroKing 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Well done, fuck yeah.
[–]malvoliosf -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
I'd propose two cut-offs for determining personhood.
You see, that's the problem. On the one side of the cut-off, you have a routine surgical procedure; on the other, you have a heinous crime.
To have that kind of gulf, you cannot use an arbitrary cut-off. "Sorry, your fetus had 81% brain function. Life in prison for you."
[–]losian 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
I'm gonna weigh in here just because.
I'd say it's a very hard thing to concretely affirm. Definition is the biggest thing here, in regards to alive, sentient/sapient, aware, and so forth, but I do have a relevant personal anecdote.
I had a surgery done and was given conscious sedation, meaning that I was conscious, aware, etc. I "felt" it as it happened. However, the anesthesia of that sort causes anterograde amnesia. I do not remember ANY OF IT. Thus, literally, it as if it never happened. I know it did, but even so I did not experience it in an aware, it really didn't happen to me as far as my consciouness is aware, besides knowing that it did happen.
For me, personally, it's a weird and scary thought. Does memory alone define my very being, in a fashion? Is it the essence of who am I? I mean, surely some of our habits and such develop prior to memory, but without remembering it.. It's a bit strange. If memory is really the defining trait, one could argue that a 'person' doesn't actually surface until someone is a few years old at least. Hell, I barely remember glimpses of pre-K with any level of vividity. I'm not saying it'd be fine to slaughter anyone prior to a certain age, that isn't my point. My point is simply that it kinda depends what you quantify and qualify 'alive,' 'aware,' 'person,' and other such words to really mean. I've grappled with this a bit since that surgery. It's deep stuff.
After my experience, I don't really know. As best I don't know if they drew penises on my face and posted on facebook and all had a laugh, or they just did another routine surgery. All I know is that it happened, and I have a scar. But if not for the scar, there's just nothing there, it truly as if it never happened, and it's an intimidating thought at times.
[–]geotek 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
What alive creature is it then? Has science found a new species?!
[–]Selachian 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
the distinction "person" is not a biological one, as such, species has nothing to do with it.
[–]OKImHere -2 points-1 points0 points 6 months ago
You kidney is alive, but it's not a new species, nor is it a person.
[–]heartgoesbang 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
What's really the difference? Brain capacity? conscious thought? well fuck, if that's the case, I know a crap load of already born people that we can abort right now! But in all seriousness, I know my viewpoint on abortion isn't going to be the norm on this page, but we're here to be able to be open about our beliefs, right?
[–]Meridicia 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
The difference is what is so vehemently disputed. As another user responded above, two options are brain development and viability (with accompanying explanations). I'm a proponent of the second option.
[–]tbollow89 4 points5 points6 points 6 months ago
Completely off base. The eggs you buy in a store are not fertilized. Obviously. Therefore it is not a valid analogy in the least.
[–]Solo_Virtus 28 points29 points30 points 6 months ago
This bullshit gets reposted like every 2 weeks.
First of all, what does this have to do with atheism? I don't like this trend, where /r/atheism has become the go-to subreddit for left-leaning propaganda. That's what r/politics is for.
Second of all, this is fucking stupid, period. That's a damn zygote, not a fetus. That's not what usually gets aborted. Substitute the bottom picture with this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Fetus_amniotic_sac.jpg/250px-Fetus_amniotic_sac.jpg
and see how "simple" the concept is.
[–]j37ceph 4 points5 points6 points 6 months ago
I logged in to upvote you. Stay integral.
This is the main argument I have every time I see this ridiculous picture. What would your opinion be in regards to the original picture, with your suggested picture as an addendum, captioned "But this (is/might be)"?
Also, slight adjustment, it's not neccessarily a zygote yet. It's an egg and a sperm cell. Somewhat different to an actual zygote/foetus/unborn, as they are technically genetically dissimilar from humans, excepting parthenogenesis. But excellent reference to the "simplicity" of the matter.
[–]j37ceph -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago*
HIYAAAA!!!
Yeah. I know what you mean, there is some legitimacy to the statement of nervous systems, viability, etc. For instance, a mate of mine's brother just had a kid, (vicariously, of course). They were so early, that only a week separated them from the legal viability cut-off. In Australia, a kid under 24weeks gestation is considered unviable, and not technically worth the effort to provide support systems for, when others need it.
See, my problem stems more from the personal liability side of things. I don't think it's a right of government to decide that all children of certain kind should be ignored, I think that doctors should be able to make judgement calls, with some (but not full) impugnity.
But no one asks what the girl was doing, as in Australia, the vast majority of abortions are voluntary, and the same for the U.S. For me, the only
I guess it's the same as the involuntary manslaughter some people get for DUI and, well, I'm sure you get the drift. Basically, everyone is responsible for their own actions, including leading up to drunkeness, pregnancy, and a whole plethora of ethical issues.
But the point being for me, is that I believe in personal validity, even in cases of low self-awareness. I mean, how do you judge that? That case recently about the autistic girl who communicaets via computer, but can't communicate, or even sit still, otherwise? That shows intelligence and awareness aren't cut and dried facts, but continually being re-appraised.
[–]j37ceph 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
I agree--I believe life is from the zygote, and am a sort of christian conservative (I don't agree with just-war right-wing lunacy, and somewhat agree with libertarian perspectives--mainly from the perspective of the emphysemic uncle. What gives people the right to take away other people's lives?
The only justifiable position is for equal measure (loss of life for loss of life) but even then it's difficult, because often a loss of life is many by one, so it's still not equal, though it can equally be "justice for the victims/relatives".
Why should the story change just because they haven't had a life full of memories? Because they have no voice of their own? Seems a bit hypocritical when i see it treated dismissively by hyper-liberals in videos of congress concerning partial birth, probably one of the most offensive things I've ever seen/heard of. Tried to keep this short because it doesn't specifically belong here.
[–]demodawid 6 points7 points8 points 6 months ago
This. I remember seeing another image in reply to this one. I can't find it so I made it myself. (not my idea)
[–]KingMotion 4 points5 points6 points 6 months ago
Essentially all of my downvotes have come when I challenged why political left-leaning posts get upvoted so much.
As atheists, on a global scale, we've broken from the majority, away from indoctrination, and into individuals. I have no idea why everyone then assumes that we are subsequently cookie cutter atheists who believe in the same things.
[–]losian 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
It could stem from the notion that some folks believe that atheism in itself is a "belief system" of sorts, which is to say, it must be comprised of those who have very similar opinions on all that stuff. It'd also be a very wrong notion, but hey, just a thought.
[–]KingMotion 3 points4 points5 points 6 months ago
I will say that it most likely has to do with the fact that a lot of right leaning political observers tend to shun atheism.
What I don't like is the fact that I come here as an atheist, and I'm told very often that I'm the wrong kind of atheist. I very clearly come here for atheism related discussion. When I ask why I have to be assumed to be left leaning, I'm downvoted. Very clearly to the right of the this reddit, is a list of subreddits. Progressive Atheists could be a politics related subreddit that a lot of people can get behind.
But me, I believe that atheism only has to do with a belief in God. That's it. When we start making these assumptions, we fracture and separate each other and alienate one another. It's like the FAQ I read for the American Atheist Party or whatever the name is. It's basically American Social Democratic Party without much to do with atheism. I certainly wouldn't vote for them, regardless of their disbelief.
A lot of it has to do with a youthful "anything that the religious don't believe in" mantra as well. The fact that a religious person supports it, does not make it wrong. This reddit suffers from a strong adherence to association fallacy.
[–]losian 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
I don't disagree! There's definitely groups on both sides of the fence that mislabel.
It's funny, I've always myself been kind've a "I don't really know and who am I to judge" kind of person, not necessarily unreligious, or at least not entirely unspiritual, so I'm a bit new to all the nuances around here. That said, I certainly see the point you're making! It's almost funny that it can be so hard to clarify that 'atheism' and 'atheists' are not really a group or organization or anything else really, but instead it's just a matter of opinion on a matter.
When I came here first, you had more upvotes. I'm here for you bro.
ಢ_ಢ
[–]OKImHere -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 months ago
My alternate username is "DownvotesMeanImRight" for precisely this reason. If r/politics downvotes you, you're doing something right.
[–]Dudesan 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Downvoting for truth.
[–]doesnotexist1000 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Christianity is against ALL abortions. Not "most" abortions.
[–]malvoliosf -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 months ago
Cite?
Hard right christianity is against abortion, hard left are for abortion on the grounds of "loving the needy" without offending them.
I'm more conservative. I believe that the elective abortions (over 3/4 of all in Australia) should be outlawed, as they take the responsibility of people from "behave yourself" to "we'll fix that for you", a very liberal approach. I'm not saying there should be no help, but that, maybe, just maybe, if you want to screw around, use rubbers.
Sex is your choice, as is everything. Fetus in fetu are not biologically the woman's body (and this is my question mark personally for rape cases, ie why does the son or daughter get judged for the father's acts?), so it's not the right of power over her own body. What is the right of the woman is the right to refuse sex without a condom.
Catholicism is neccessarily against abortion, but I've yet to accept the pope as my leader. When he represents God/the bible and stops sitting on golden thrones while there are starving nations and offering mystic knowledge, then i might listen to him. But why do I need the pope if I can know God personally? The structure of hierarchy is neccessarily non-christian, possibly anti-christian. So they're a bad representation. Much as they were in the dark ages when they were killing people who didn't follow their religion. Mostly christians. The vast majority of burnings were heretics who did things like saying you didn't need the pope to read the bible for you.
BLASPHEMY!!!
[–]malvoliosf -2 points-1 points0 points 6 months ago
Are you in there, tiny fetus? In nine months, will you come greet us?
Are you in there, tiny fetus?
In nine months, will you come greet us?
-- Phoebe Buffay
You've got a friend in me.
[–]joispeachy 10 points11 points12 points 6 months ago
Can we say logical fallacy? Not to mention how annoying the abortion posts in r/atheism are.
[–]objective_objective 3 points4 points5 points 6 months ago
But a difficult concept IS defining when that fertilized egg becomes a human. It's all arbitrary guidelines and this grossly oversimplifies things.
[–]mmforeal 10 points11 points12 points 6 months ago
Analogy FAIL
[–]redditlien 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
In my opinion we are approaching this problem from the wrong direction.
We continue to argue and bicker about when abortion would be okay, and when it's murder of another individual. It's easy to see even if you think life begins at conception or after 9 months of pregnancy, the point at which an egg and sperm cell become a human being worthy of lawful protection is up for interpretation.
Instead of outlawing the practice of an abortion, or trying to make it legal we should just be focusing attention on making the need for an abortion never occur. It's a lofty goal but honestly with the rate things are going we have a better chance of attaining this with the focus of science and doctors without the weight of the religious debate than we are to coming to a consensus on this issue. Even if we can all agree and create the 100% agreed upon legislature and timing of when a human being materializes, it still means people have to go through a procedure that could have been avoided if they accidentally get pregnant and catch it before the deadline. We would be no better off as a society. We call that treating a symptom and not the actual cause.
We need to create as inexpensive and as fool proof birth control as possible for both men and women that all citizens have access to. (By fool proof I mean that both in a medical sense and in a human error capable sense) Then focus on making the conception to birth process as painless and with as few complications as possible. It would be wonderful if we got so incredible at reproduction that an organization could incubate and care for a child in an artificial womb with 0 complications until it was ready to be "birthed".
[–]cadge91 3 points4 points5 points 6 months ago
It may not be a person, but it is a human being in the strictest sense.
[–]slowerthanlight -6 points-5 points-4 points 6 months ago
The egg is unfertilized. It is not a human being in any sense.
[–]David1337 9 points10 points11 points 6 months ago
This has absolutely nothing to do with religion. Not a hard concept.
[–]sofristi 7 points8 points9 points 6 months ago
Couldn't resist.
[–]hillbillypaladin 7 points8 points9 points 6 months ago
holy fucking shit, dude
[–]Weirdusername 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Too soon? Naaaah.
[–]OKImHere 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
I don't even understand that. The bottom picture is not what? Difficult? A person? A dress?
[–]MajicMushroom 3 points4 points5 points 6 months ago
This is a ridiculous argument, we eat chickens, burn trees and wear clothing. Only cannibals, nazi's and schizophrenics eat, burn and wear people.
[–]rastapasta808 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
If everyone hates it why is it upvoted to no end?
[–]odwyer02 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
I like my chickens scrambled and 'life' smeared within crumpled Kleenex.
[–]CGWLP 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
I used a similar argument in a debate regarding abortion in an ethics class. Those things may not currently be what you say they are, but there is a chance they will become them given enough time
[–]rdr05300 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
The first two have not made contact with the genetic material that will bring it to life. The egg is not a fetus. It is only an unfertilized egg. The seed has not been planted, so it's not yet germinating. The silk is silk. It doesn't even belong here. The zygote is in the process of becoming fertilized...making it alive.
(Pro-life atheist)
[–]hflol 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Plants have genetic material and are alive.
[–]Dudesan -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
I don't think you know how seeds work.
Either way, my point still stands.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Took a class on stem cell biology. Some consider life when the instructions (diploid chromosomes) to make a person are within a cell (zygote). I thought it was a pretty ridiculous argument; however, it was an argument.
[–]thundershock713 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
I actually agree with most of the comments in this subreddit for a change
[–]picalo 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
raising hand hoping you guys see this
Is this image not talking about birth control? Not abortion...
Again?
[–]Shalelol 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Damn you for getting more karma when you posted it. Here's mine from a month ago. http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/n4q3w/a_concept_most_of_christianity_cannot_grasp/
I have seen this posted already at least 20 times.
Either way it is not a very good argument, because society already regards human life with a higher value than any animal or plant.
[–]manifestiny 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
I'm sure you loved that "Do you believe in Mom" picture.
[–]ProfessorFuckington 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
To all those rejecting this as non-atheism related, do atheist pro-lifers exist? Really? I'd sure be interested in hearing from one, and their rationale.
[–]joispeachy 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
Yes, in fact, I know two. Of course they wouldn't force that on others.
[–]sk8withk8 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
There's a lot actually.
www.godlessprolifers.org
[–]redditlien 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
I am an atheist and I am pro life.
The point after conception at which the mass of cells becomes a human organism worthy of protection under the law like all other human beings hasn't been defined and agreed upon by the scientific community.
Until that happens, I choose to err on the side of caution. To assume the state of nature without evidence, especially dealing with something so personal as potentially the life of another human being with such carelessness is neither scientific nor progressive. It's closer to the conviction a religious person knowing that god exists.
I sympathize with those that have ever made the decision to get an abortion. I probably don't agree with the justification of those that decided to get them, but an abortion is a terrible thing to go through on a level that I couldn't even begin to imagine. Why then we try and bicker and argue about the right to have them, instead of focusing our efforts to ensure that no one ever has to get one is beyond me.
[–]samcrow 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
well we live in a world were abortion is a necessary "evil". but i think there are too many kids being born to worry about the ones that will never be
do you think abortion should be illegal?
[–]mopecore 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago*
Really? This? Again?
Look, I'm willing to concede the last panel depicts a "human being". I'm still pro-choice, and I refer you to Judith Jarvis Thompson's "violinist" argument.
[–]AustinHiggs 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Oh man. This picture brings back memories. This is what started a 600+ comment post on facebook, Atheist vs Fundies. It was a fight of epic proportions.
[–]desert_sky 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Don't be ignorant. The egg on your plate doesn't have a heartbeat. The eggs are fertilized.
I never did understand what Pro choice Or Pro Life had to do with atheism but if you're cool with killing your future child be my guest.
it is not your future child if you abort it
Oh well defend what you must I don't give a shit either way what people do to their unborn that's their move. I guess I'm just one to see Potential and have a disdain for wasting it.
[–]samcrow 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
i guess I'm just one to see Potential and have a disdain for wasting it
wasting what exactly? an unborn child? how is that done? and if you're one to see potential then i'm sure you'll agree with me that every sperm is then sacred because it has potential
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 months ago*
I'm an atheist you twit. Like I had said if you wish to have an abortion then I couldn't care less. I see it as a necessary evil and a decision I can't see people making on a whim. I most certainly would have trouble doing it because it some how feels like that it is my child or eventually will be. There are reasons for abortions some of which are completely necessary but I, my self still would feel horrible.
Now the only thing I hate more than people assuming I'm religious are those who have helped Induce the stigma that has been put on abortion. Like those people who use Jesus a banner and a symbol of guilt. Who hang out in front of clinics waving signs with fetuses and pictures of their blue eyed white christian god. Who throw out statistics like "80% of those who have abortions commit suicide". When they are the ones outside yelling at people who already feel like shit on the shittiest day of their lives.
People have the right to do what needs to be done but you somehow getting offended because I see the Zygote as a potential for life is some how offensive to me.
[–]doesnotexist1000 -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
But is it sparta?
[–]slowerthanlight -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
this post certainly is madness.
[–]deityofanime -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
NO, THIS IS *PATRICK!*
[–]mangocorduroy -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
I'm not comfortable with that amount of untruth because it's exactly the kind of thing christians do to substantiate their "facts". I wouldn't exactly call them lies but they are untruths and this is where a preacher gets his ammo from.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
This has nothing to do with atheism.
[–]skimmer14 -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
difference:
I don't care about getting down voted, I just would like people to see my point.
[–]anonymousthrowaway96 -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
It becomes difficult when the last picture looks like this.
[–]maceman89 -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
Life begins with conception.
[–]abynum -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
Also that is just a chicken egg, which is a same a human period. So basically you should not post this until you actually understand what abortion is....
[–]Cynass -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
Atheism has nothing to do with it. And please at least be honest and show things as they are, this is a 12 week old fetus : http://eb.img.v4.skyrock.net/eb7/jrphiloblog2010/pics/2701004212_1.jpg
[–]x1ux1u -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
The first three images are all aborted from there growth cycle. Bad analogy if you ask me.
[–]LocalMadman -6 points-5 points-4 points 6 months ago
I agree, but I could see PETA arguing about the chicken part.
[–]setrakakan 8 points9 points10 points 6 months ago
Considering the eggs we eat are unfertilized I think even they'd have trouble arguing that.
[–]ThrillinglyHeroic 9 points10 points11 points 6 months ago
And thus, the problem with this argument. The chicken egg is unfertilized, while the human egg cell is or at least in the process.
[–]flyonawall 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
It could easily be fertile, a fertilized but unincubated egg actually still looks pretty much like this. I know. I used to raise free range chickens.
[–]JohnSmallBerries 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
The acorn, however, doesn't even need to be fertilized.
[–]BuccaneerRex 5 points6 points7 points 6 months ago
Incorrect. Oak Tree reproduction.
What do you think pollen is? Hint: plant jizz.
[–]JohnSmallBerries 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
The plant jizz comes before the acorn is formed.
[–]BuccaneerRex 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
And? The people jizz comes before the zygote is formed.
Yes. Exactly. The acorn is not a tree; it has the potential to become a tree.
A fertilized egg is not a human being (nor is a morula, nor a blastula, nor a blastocyst...); it has the potential to become a human being.
[–]DarkHavenX75 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Have an upvote.
[–]setrakakan 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
One could still argue a fertilized egg is still not a chicken. I personally wouldn't consider balut a duck.
[–]ThrillinglyHeroic 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Right, that is what the image is arguing, but anyone arguing against it could easily make the same statement as me.
[–]Gemini4t 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
But they wouldn't have much trouble arguing how poorly chickens are treated in factory conditions.
[–]ReyTheRed 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
I don't think they would argue about it not being a chicken, but they would object to the chicken that produced the egg being kept in captivity to feed us. They might have a point to depending on the conditions in which the chicken lives.
[–]LocalMadman 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
I'm just saying it's a possibility.
[–]panxzz -2 points-1 points0 points 6 months ago
A story I heard on NPR made me start thinking about this:
If republican politicians are so against abortion because there's a high likelihood of killing the fetus (not 100% certain), then they also must be against at-home births because there's an increased likelihood (although still less than abortion) of the fetus and the mother dying. So my question is, where do you draw the line?
[–]Llama_Bill 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
Are you really connecting the two? So now republicans have to be against anything that could kill someone or increase their chance of dying? You do know that is pretty much anything right? All this because they are against abortions, that is a stretch.
[–]panxzz -1 points0 points1 point 6 months ago
First, I'm not saying anyone needs to believe in anything, to each his/her own is how I feel. I'm just noting that it's interesting that many repulican politicians will speak up against abortion but when it comes to at-home births they don't say a word despite the potential risk involved. (And again, to each their own)
Secondly, I agree that it would be ridiculous if a party was against anything that has the potential to kill a person; and this is why I'm bringing up this idea. We have two points on this graph of potential risk involved vs political ideology, and there is a line that needs to be drawn. Where do you draw it?
Even the idea of when conception actually occurs is a ridiculous notion. Nobody can actually just point at one specific moment when you can define a fetus as a human being, and if anyone were to try they get debated. In this example the line to be drawn isn't when conception occurs, but when it's time to agree to disagree and move on.
[–]deityofanime 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
How do they feel about circumcision? Children die from that too.
[–]panxzz 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Right, so given that circumcision is risky to a child's life, and abortion is more risky to a child's life; where is the point that you decide that this is the amount of risk one can legally put a child's life into?
I personally don't think a child's life should ever be put on the line for cosmetic reasons.
[–]joispeachy 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Your figures about home births are off. No significant difference has been found in the death rates of babies between home births and hospital births.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_birth#Research_on_safety
The first sentence to the section you linked to:
The data available on the safety of home birth in developed countries is limited and difficult to interpret due to issues such as studies being too small in scope, retrospective in their design, and difficult to compare with other studies because of varying definitions of perinatal mortality.
[–]joispeachy 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago*
Sorry, linked to the wrong spot.
Perinatal outcome is more complicated to assess due to the low incidence of mortality and the subjectivity of Apgar scoring. Most studies found a slight, but statistically significant, difference in Apgar score for infants at five minutes. However, the 1994 UK National Birthday Trust study found a slight advantage for home birthed infants at one minute and no difference at five minutes. No cohort study has conducted long-term follow up on the infants. The perinatal mortality figure still remains controversial. The Zurich study showed an equal perinatal death rate between the home birth group and the hospital birth group (2.3 / 1000), and the Birthday Trust study found a slightly higher perinatal death rate in the hospital birth group (1 / 1000 vs. 0.8/1000). However, two other studies found a slightly higher perinatal mortality in the home birth group as compared to the hospital birth group. None of these results were seen to be statistically significant, since the actual mortality rate and the sample sizes were both so low, these figures have been the subject of much debate regarding the relative safety of home birth compared to hospital birth.
[–]rk9 -6 points-5 points-4 points 6 months ago
a little harsh but yeah, also true
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