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Evil or not evil? (photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net)
submitted 7 months ago by Thear22
[–]Waffle_Puncher 14 points15 points16 points 7 months ago
And then there are people like you. Or me. Or everyone else on this thread, atheist or not: we're not really good. We're not really evil. We're bored and we've masturbated enough for today, so we're on reddit.
[–]zanotam -2 points-1 points0 points 7 months ago
So brave.
[–]Princess_Billy 109 points110 points111 points 7 months ago
Malcom X is a good muslim? I'd hate to see the bad ones then.
[–]LukaCola 18 points19 points20 points 7 months ago
Yeah, a better example really could have been used.
[–]I_read_a_lot 9 points10 points11 points 7 months ago
came to say this, wasn't disappointed
[–]LOUD-DUCK 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
Yeh, in my curriculum Malcolm X was definitely not that good of a Muslim and Bill Gates was not that ethical in 2008 - hiring cheaper immigrants (with no benefits) over domestic workers while lying to Congress.
[–]jaybyrd570 9 points10 points11 points 7 months ago
I'm pretty sure he was retired by then.
[–]LOUD-DUCK -2 points-1 points0 points 7 months ago
I believe Congress hearing was in early Spring and he completely quit Microsoft (still is a chairman though) in the Summer.
[–]LOUD-DUCK 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
How am I getting downvoted for factual evidence!?
[–]ThorLives 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
Bill Gates got a bit of a boost in "goodness" since he donated a lot of money to charity (he's given more to charity than almost anyone) and is using his charity to fight against third-world diseases.
That is what was so hard for me to decide. Screwed immigrants, gives ASTONISHING amount of profit away. Some kind of Robin Hood thing going on here.
[–]rahtin 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
He doesn't have a choice. He had a legal responsibility to his shareholders to do what was cheapest.
And yes, Malcolm X joined the Nation of Islam which is a black power movement that believes in racial segregation and the complete submission of women to men. They also believe that white people are literally the devil. Whites were created in a lab in ancient times in Africa because the black man once had a great and prosperous society with technology better than we have today, until white people ruined it all.
Nation of Islam is to Islam as Mormonism is to Christianity.
Lying to Congress that there is a skilled worker shortage in USA is illegal.
[–]wackylol 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
I agree but a better comparison is not Mormonism but Aryan Nations since Aryan Nations is a "Christian" group according to the members but obviously so far removed from mainstream Christianity that most people would disagree. Also it's racist and backwards and we would be better off without it.
[–]rahtin 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Mormon's are christians. They believe in Jesus, but isntead of using the New Testament, they have an addendum called the book of Mormon.
The Aryan Nation is a prison gang.
As for racist, the Mormon's believe (at least they 'used to' before they altered the inalterable word of their god) that black people are inherently inferior and dangerous.
I agree, mormonism is pretty backwards. I'm tired of organizations that encourage women to be stupid and uneducated so they can point at them and say "Look, that's all women are capable of."
"Aryan Nations is a white supremacist religious organization originally based in Hayden Lake, Idaho. Richard Girnt Butler founded the group in the 1970s, as an arm of the Christian Identity organization Church of Jesus Christ–Christian." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Nations
"The Nation of Islam is a mainly African-American new religious movement founded in Detroit, Michigan by Wallace D. Fard Muhammad in July 1930 to improve the spiritual, mental, social, and economic condition of African-Americans in the United States of America.[1] The movement teaches black pride and principles of Islam." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam
So they both follow a religion in a way that most mainstream followers would argue is extremely off the beaten path, they both have supremacist racist beliefs, they both are extremely big in prison, they both have the whole "Nations" thing going on; I'd say they are pretty similar.
[–]ThirdFloorGreg 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
The White Race (actually, all races other than Black) was created on Patmos, not Africa.
[–]aakaakaak 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
How about Westboro Baptist Church is to Church?
[–]Graped_in_the_mouth 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
He had a legal responsibility to his shareholders to do what was cheapest
No one has a legal responsibility to shareholders to break the law.
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 7 months ago
ummm, you have? and if you haven't I will refer you back to OP, the image gives a good example
[–]MadcowPSA 5 points6 points7 points 7 months ago
Just curious, what issues do you take with Malcolm X (née Little) in particular?
[–]I_read_a_lot 53 points54 points55 points 7 months ago
Malcolm X's expressed beliefs changed substantially over time. As a spokesman for the Nation of Islam he taught black supremacy and advocated separation of black and white Americans.
He fought racism with more racism.
[–]MadcowPSA 7 points8 points9 points 7 months ago*
I know about that, but it's worth bearing in mind that his views changed significantly after his pilgrimage to Mecca and his conversion to Islam, as opposed to Nation of Islam, which really doesn't count as Islam.
As a Muslim, he was rather different than he was as a member of the Nation of Islam.
EDIT: So I guess more precisely, the question I meant to ask was, "What issues do you take with Malcolm X after his conversion to Islam?"
[–]ChadwickHenryWard 5 points6 points7 points 7 months ago
How is the Nation of Islam not Islam?
[–]unstablist 15 points16 points17 points 7 months ago
Wikipedia has a great article. NOI is an amazing cross between Scientology and Islam with a bit of the reverse Mormonism(instead of black people being inherently evil, it turns out that white people are).
I like trying to buy bean pies from the NOI fundraisers on my commute, they give the BEST hateful glares, especially if I have my wife or sisters-in-law in the car.
[–]originaluip 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
trying? do they refuse you a sale?
[–]unstablist 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Well, it didn't help when I tried to buy, one I yelled that I was a hungry space demon.
Some people have no sense of humor about their religions.
[–]aakaakaak 7 points8 points9 points 7 months ago
Nation of Islam is to Islam what Westboro Baptist Church is to Baptist Church.
I think that's possibly the most clear I can make it.
[–]ChadwickHenryWard 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
The WBC is Christian. Their views are strongly Calvinist.
[–]ThirdFloorGreg -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
Westboro Baptist's (official) doctrine is way closer Christianity than NOI is to Islam. Now, get some of the members behind closed doors and ask them how they really feel, and believe it or not it actually gets crazier. A good chunk of them are actually Aryan Nation.
[–]MadcowPSA 4 points5 points6 points 7 months ago
The long and short of it is that the two faiths hold substantially different theological tenets. To include NOI as a branch of Islam would be to ignore key principles of the latter belief system.
[–]Blizzaldo 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
The Nation of Islam touts that Black people are the original people, and white people are evil offspring made by a scientist named Jacob. He apparently seperated a group of 200 or so, and bred the lighter coloured ones until after two hundred years he made red people. After another two hundred years, he made yellow. Another 200 years and he made the evil white man. Apparently, white people were also captured and placed in Europe by Black people. But yeah, Nation of Islam is nothing more than a control cult that uses some of Islam's teachings to bring together as many people down on their luck together.
How is that any crazier than what the Koran says about the origins of race?
[–]wackylol 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
It's a black power movement loosely rallying around some jailhouse concept of Islam but so absurd and removed that no one actually would agree that it is truly Islamic outside of itself. Similar to Aryan Nations and Christianity.
[–]ChadwickHenryWard -8 points-7 points-6 points 7 months ago
If white people had hit your father in the head with a hammer and dropped his body on the train tracks, you might be in favor racial separation too. The world in which Malcolm lived was a hugely hostile one. You should take that into consideration when judging his views. It was mostly about self-defense.
[–]cuck 6 points7 points8 points 7 months ago
Justifying an offense to humanity (racial separation) through how your father was treated doesn't make it right.
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 7 months ago
Racial separation is an offense to humanity? Give me a fucking break.
[–]Princess_Billy 4 points5 points6 points 7 months ago
Having hate in your heart, whether it's justified or not, is never a good thing. The only thing that Mr. X preached was segregation, the evils of the white man, and how only by standing together with your black brothers could you amount to anything.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
[–]Teuthex 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
He was a preacher?
[–]Princess_Billy 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
I fucking love that you linked this.
[–]hackedyasack 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
If you have hate in your heart, let it out
[–]Princess_Billy 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
He shouldn't stay married to no nigger lover.
[–]MasterHand -14 points-13 points-12 points 7 months ago
Downvoted for pure ignorance.
Assume your brother was lynched, sister beaten, and father booted from his job. All for being black, without any justice.
Now stay on your high horse while you are starving, ill, and afraid.
Someone thinks I'm ignorant? On the internet?! OH GOD.
[–]MasterHand 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
No, your probably not ignorant. Im just very anti apartheid - so passionately that it blinds me sometimes.
[–]lollerkeet 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
He went from a 'people of my race are brothers' bigot to a 'people of my religion are brothers' bigot.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
I'm just glad he was killed by the smoker assassin from the X-files!
[–]IonBeam2 -3 points-2 points-1 points 7 months ago
Mr. King is a good Christian? I'd hate to see the bad ones then.
[–]Princess_Billy 6 points7 points8 points 7 months ago
From what I've seen, he is a pretty good example of a "good christian".
[–]IonBeam2 4 points5 points6 points 7 months ago
He was a cheater, in many ways.
Like what? i've never heard anything but good about him, for the most part. I'm curious.
[–]IonBeam2 5 points6 points7 points 7 months ago
He plagiarized large parts of his doctoral dissertation, plagiarized many of his speeches, including his most famous ones, and cheated on his wife and generally treated women like shit.
[–]Princess_Billy 5 points6 points7 points 7 months ago
Well that's not very good of him. Any source?
[–]mdmakk 3 points4 points5 points 7 months ago
Christopher Hitchens' God Is Not Great
[–]IonBeam2 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
66% of Mr. King's dissertation was plagiarized: http://web.archive.org/web/20070808024857/http://chem-gharbison.unl.edu/mlk/chronology.html
A woman who worked with Mr. King wrote an autobiography about the extra-marital affairs, Excerpts can be found here: http://www.snopes.com/history/american/mlking.asp Also, the FBI recorded evidence of these activities through bugs placed in his hotel rooms.
Information on Mr. King's "borrowing" of speech material can be found here: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,478839,00.html
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
I love how you get downvoted for stating facts. Self hating whites are hilarious.
[–]Godssheep 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
Self hating whites? Also, he is upvoted. Where are your silly theories now?
[–]emjaiz 8 points9 points10 points 7 months ago
Funny how all the good ones were American and the "evil" ones were all foreign.
[–]ThorLives 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago*
To be fair, I think Stalin and Hitler would be included on any list of "most terrible people who ever lived". Martin Luther King and Bill Gates (based on his huge donations to charity and fighting third-world disease) seem like reasonable people to put as representatives on the "good" list. I suppose someone could argue that Mother Theresa should replace Martin Luther King - she's foreign and well-respected in the US, although Christopher Hitchens has some things to say about that.
If you asked people to name famous good people, I suppose the Dalai Lama and Ghandi would also be on the list, but they're Buddhist and Hindu, so they don't really fit the Christian/Muslim/Atheist storyline. Besides, you'd want to find some bad Buddhists and Hindus to contrast them against, and I don't know who'd exactly go on that list.
[–]Tattycakes 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Mother Teresa you say? PS This video has some Hitch!
[–]instapunish 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Hitler and Stalin are hard to surpass in terms of "evil". Not so sure about Osama (I have not studied "evil muslims" specifically, not saying he wasnt bad), but they all seem like obvious choices.
If you think there are better ones, post who you would put in their place IMO.
[–]MrKequc 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
Evil is a construct invented by man, it doesn't really mean anything outside of a religious setting. Except whatever meaning we give to it in this case it seems to be causing harm to other people, which I'm okay with. Not that I'm okay with causing harm to other people but I'm okay with the definition.
The first world has been causing harm to other people on a global scale for a very very long long time. Even so recently as all the wars currently being fought.
So does that make the first world evil? Many think so.
[–]emjaiz 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Hence why I put "evil" in quotation marks. I will call someone "good" or "bad" not because these things exist beyond our existence but rather in the humanistic standards dictated by our societies moral structure.
[–]napoleonsolo 33 points34 points35 points 7 months ago
Religion does not always correlate with ethics.
Religion does, however, correlate with homicide, abortion, teen pregnancy, mortality, STD, marital and related problems. (Source 1, Source 2). You can even look back in time to when Frederick Douglass noticed a correlation between religiosity and slavery. "Revivals of religion and revivals in the slave-trade go hand in hand together."
I don't know any atheists who don't realize that there are some incredibly decent religious folks (often they're family). But I'm sorry, you'd have to be crazy to think that a religion that says that women are inferior to men, or talks about waging wars against other religions, or just cultivate an attitude of irrationality, that somehow these religions have no statistical effect on the actions of their adherents.
[–]Teuthex 5 points6 points7 points 7 months ago
That the things that some people believe without evidence are good or beneficial to humanity does not change the fact that if evidence is not used as a basis for belief, people can believe, and make others believe, absolutely anything, including things that are terribly harmful to humanity.
[–]PhotoShopNewb 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
somehow these religions have no statistical effect on the actions of their adherents.
He said nothing of the sort. Actually the pic says quite the opposite. It says there are both good AND bad religious people. Of course religion would statistically influence people's actions (both positively and negatively). Just like any other group of people with a set of beliefs, look at PETA, Green Peace, Communism or even Capitalism, that's just how humanity works. People need to justify there actions.
[–]napoleonsolo 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
OP tried to minimize this in a comment elsewhere in this thread, claiming it's "because they snapped. Religion doesn't have much to do with it. ... Just like my post said, it is the person who does it not the religion." That part of my comment should probably have been placed in a response to that comment.
[–]haplo42 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
I agree completely.
Also, giving examples as to individuals that go against a suggested correlation does not disprove that correlation, it just implies neither of the groups (i.e. religious people and bad people) is a subset of the other. Correlation however does not imply causation (Wiki), however, in this case, experience and logical reasoning suggest that also (indirect) causation occurs.
[–]goldenguyz 9 points10 points11 points 7 months ago
But I just saw this same image in this very subreddit not a few days ago...
[–]aikbix 11 points12 points13 points 7 months ago*
Well this is awkward...
Original Submission
[–]zanotam 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
It's okay, reposts are allowed under reddiquette and should be encouraged as not everyone is always on Reddit and chances are if it was good a few days ago, new people will find it good today.
[–]MadcowPSA -17 points-16 points-15 points 7 months ago
Scroll the fuck past it if it bothers you.
[–]goldenguyz 7 points8 points9 points 7 months ago
You know, I would, but I literally saw this 3 days ago, and maybe a week or two before that. It just gets on my nerves.
Also, comments aren't just for praising the OP.
Also, also, if this message bothers you, why not just scroll the fuck past it?
[–]MadcowPSA -8 points-7 points-6 points 7 months ago
I just figured I'd offer you a solution to what appeared to be a complaint.
Reposts happen. They're bound to. I, for one, often enjoy them. It's nice, sometimes, seeing something that amused you some time ago, and having it crop back up. Reposts wouldn't frontpage if a large amount of the community didn't feel the same way.
[–]goldenguyz 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Reposts getting frontpaged is pretty much saying "Hey guys, don't worry about original content and new ideas! Just repost whatever you find funny in a couple of weeks".
I agree reposts are fine, but in moderation, I've seen dozens of reposts on /r/atheism alone in the last few weeks.
Also; you can save images if you like them.
[–]MyriPlanet 3 points4 points5 points 7 months ago
Every human being has read literally all of reddit every day for years.
No one missed content the first time around, no one hasn't seen it before, everyone has seen exactly what goldenguyz has seen and nothing else.
[–]ohnoesbleh 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
Fairly sure that complaining about reposts is reddiquette ignorance as well.
I've seen this 4 times in on the frontpage alone the last 4 months. It's probably been on more than that and the /r/atheism frontpage doesn't change that much either.
As i said, the last time this was on the front page was 3 days ago, so unless they've been a redditor for < 3 days, then they've most likely seen it and decided to repost it.
(The OP has been reditor for 18 days, and has probably seen it before.
[–]MadcowPSA -2 points-1 points0 points 7 months ago
This would be a valid complaint if original content didn't routinely make the front page.
[–]goldenguyz 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
Reposts routinely make the front page.
As does original content.
Well yes, but my arguement is not that no OC gets to the frontpage, it's that alot of what is on the front page are just reposts.
[–]MadcowPSA -4 points-3 points-2 points 7 months ago
Right, and my argument is that reposts getting to the front page will not be a problem unless and until OC stops getting there.
[–]Camnontheist 9 points10 points11 points 7 months ago
The difference is however that Hitler and Osama performed their atrocities in the name of their religion. To my knowledge, Stalin didn't do anything terrible in the name of a lack of belief.
[–]Lowbacca1977 5 points6 points7 points 7 months ago
Well, they DID kill scientists that didn't support Trofim Lysenko's view of Lamarckinan evolution, since they rejected Darwin's ideas.
[–]Locke92 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
That has more to do with Stalin creating a personality cult around himself and then a larger cult of general state worship. Thus people he did not think were loyal to him (Generals in his purges) or to his world view (Doubters of Lamarckian evolution) were essentially heretics and were summarily dealt with. Even if Stalin did not have a supernatural god at the head of his religion he was able to control a population with the same principles, by creating a faithful following through propaganda and murder.
[–]Lowbacca1977 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
I think it's more the whole thing of Stalin being Stalin, I just find the other part interesting.
[–]Godssheep 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
So he created a religion where there was no religion.
What's to tell you that it wouldn't happen all the time in an atheistic world, maybe even more than what religions do right now?
[–]Locke92 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
There always are and were personality cults. The principles that make religion dangerous are not exclusive to religion, they are just most prominent in religion. The point is that indoctrination into a worldview and worship of a person or idea is possible without religion, but they do not have the same power (usually) or prevalence as "classic" religions.
Religious thinking (that is to say belief without evidence and blind faith) should be opposed whenever it is encountered. That said, when people do not have the heuristics associated with religion there is an even lower probability that such cults develop. Unfortunately, due to fallible human psychology it is likely that we will never be absolutely free of religious thinking, but any progress is a positive change in the world.
That said, when people do not have the heuristics associated with religion there is an even lower probability that such cults develop.
Understand that I am playing devil's advocate here, but... I'd like to see that assertion backed up with something. (because I'd use it myself if I knew it was)
[–]Locke92 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
My point is only that at the moment the religious heuristics are common throughout cultures around the world, and that it is these heuristics (and the associated psychology) that cult leaders prey on. If people were not brought up in a society that encouraged religious participation, then there is an additional hurdle for the cult leaders to jump in the process of converting new members. A society of people brought up to live rational, evidence based lives will have less vulnerability to the magic thinking promoted by religions and cults.
[–]squigs 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
Plutarco Elías Calles would be a better poster child for unpleasant atheist. He wasn't as bad as Stalin but his crimes were specifically because of his hatred of religion.
[–]Camnontheist 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
I haven't heard of him before, but it would be naive to think that all Atheists are immune from becoming tyrants. I still think secular societies based on reason are they way of the future.
As with Hitler, he killed a lot of Jews through starvation and such.
[–]wonkydonky -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
Eh, he did terrible things in the name of communism, and was inspired by Marx, who was quite vocal in his defamation of religion. That's about as close as you can get.
[–]Camnontheist 4 points5 points6 points 7 months ago
This is true. I would argue that communism functions more like a religion than it does as a modern secular society.
Propaganda that can't be questioned, imprisonment or worse for dissent etc.
I think Sam Harris can summarize the point I trying to make more eloquently than I ever could. "No society in history has ever suffered because it's people were too reasonable"
Communism is far from reason.
[–]floomp 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
I think you mean "authoritarian dictatorial governments are far from reason". Communism is a perfectly sane idea and incredibly common in small groups of people (for example, a group of close friends who consider themselves equals and are willing to share material goods among themselves).
[–]Camnontheist 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
Yeah, possibly. I mean, you always treat your friends and family as equal, but the problem lies with treating every single member of society as equal. It just doesn't work. People want to get ahead, the CEO on the major bank doesn't like to think of himself as on par with the janitor.
Sure communism sounds great on paper, but it simply doesn't factor in the human condition. All too often communist states become authoritarian and dictatorial, and lets not forget corruption.
[–]rahtin -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
Hitler used his religion as an excuse, but I think he was more concerned with serving Germany than god.
Bin Laden was trying to take down the American empire. His religion was his motivator and his idealist goal was an Islamic world, but I think his primary concern was getting the US out of the middle east. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if it was a racist motivation above all else.
Stalin had zero concern for human life. A true monster of history. If people were starving, he'd just kill them so he wouldn't have to feed them. Stalin saw himself as a god, he saw fit to decide whether people were worthy to live. It doesn't matter what religion he was, he had too much power, he was elevated to the level of a deity, pictures of him everywhere. Nobody can operate as a human being with that sort of control over hundreds of millions of people and tens of thousands of nuclear warheads.
[–]Camnontheist 3 points4 points5 points 7 months ago
Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: By defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. Hilter, Mien Kampf.
He wrote that in 1925, 8 years before he became the Fuhrer. His hatred for the Jewish people was at the very least, partly motivated by religion.
Osama Bin Laden is more complex. 9/11 happened for a number of reasons. The trade embargo on Iraq after they invaded Kuwait was part of it.
The real reason however was that the U.S supported Israel. He hates Jews, and because the U.S was the leader of the "criminals" as he put it, he felt that he needed retribution.
It was religiously motivated. If he didn't harbor such enmity and contempt for the Jewish people of Israel, 9/11 probably wouldn't have happened.
9/11 didn't just happen because Bin Laden had a few issues with regional politics, you can't discount the role Islam played.
[–][deleted] 7 months ago
[deleted]
[–]bilnit 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
The events mentioned above on the other hand [sic] were acting...
I wasn't aware that events could act.
[–]ddxxdd 5 points6 points7 points 7 months ago
I remember seeing a video from SkepChick (is that her name? She runs the Friendly Atheist blog) that said that when it comes to evil, religion has a much greater potential to do evil.
The reasoning was that since there are no checks and balances against invisible, imperceptible, and omniscient beings, people who do evil in the name of religion will continue to do evil with no reasoning or rational that can be logically countered.
[–]Snoofleglax 6 points7 points8 points 7 months ago
Friendly Atheist is Hemant Mehta, who's a dude. Skepchick is actually a bunch of women (and one dude). Just clearing things up a bit.
[–]ddxxdd 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
Thank you, that is appreciated.
Secular evil has been proven to exist over the last 100 years. Look at what communism becomes when the group practicing is larger than a community.
[–]ohnoesbleh 4 points5 points6 points 7 months ago*
Secularism does not contain intrinsic calls for the blood, deletion, dehumanization, and discrimination of the other. It may be bended to, but it is not defined by these qualities. Religion -the abrahamic in particular- is directly tied to these elements in the form the absolute word of god; it requires no such bending. Secular people and religious people may exhibit certain overlapping behaviours, but it is the latter that directly attends to the promotion and cultivation of "evil" without the need of manipulation; all one needs to do is read, accept, and follow.
[–]ddxxdd 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
It eventually failed due to reason, did it not?
I'm not saying that secular evil can't exist. I'm saying that when you stop a secular evil, you have the option of reasoning with them, but when you try stopping a religious evil, you don't have that option.
[–]Thear22[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 7 months ago
people who do evil in the name of religion will continue to do evil with no reasoning or rational that can be logically countered.
People who do evil, will always continue doing it because they snapped. Religion doesn't have much to do with it. Like Jack The Ripper. Also it can work the other way around. People can choose not to kill other people because there believes because they follow "The Ten Commandments". Just like my post said, it is the person who does it not the religion.
[–]ddxxdd 10 points11 points12 points 7 months ago
because they snapped
Or because they feel like they're doing the right thing. Which he can be dissuaded of if he's open to rational logic, and not of the impression that he's pleasing a supernatural being.
Even if they're doing it because they snapped (which is rarely the case with religious fanatics), logic can be used to assure them that they're only making things worse.
Religious motivation makes a huge impact there.
[–]dablya -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
Which he can be dissuaded of if he's open to rational logic, and not of the impression that he's pleasing a supernatural being.
What is your basis for thinking that? If a person derives pleasure from bringing pain to others, how would using logic help dissuade them?
[–]ddxxdd 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
If a person derives pleasure from bringing pain to others, how would using logic help dissuade them?
It won't.
But the whole point of Bush's neo-conservative economic policy was to bring about a better economy. That "better economy" never came, so the policy was abandoned.
The whole point of the war in Iraq was to bring peace and freedom to the Iraqi people. When that peace and freedom was shown to be far, far away, we started drawing down troops.
The point is, a secular leader with secular goals will stop doing what he's doing when his methods are proven wrong. A religious leader with religious goals will stop at nothing.
so the policy was abandoned.
That's news to me.
The whole point of the war in Iraq was to bring peace and freedom to the Iraqi people.
I'm sorry, but that's not a rational position. The premise for the war in Iraq was that Iraq had WMDs. It's not at all clear if the same strategy will fail to start a war with Iran.
The point is, a secular leader with secular goals will stop doing what he's doing when his methods are proven wrong.
My point is, a secular leader can have goals that would be evil according to you and there is no reason to believe that they can be talked out of that position by rational argument.
But the people will vote them out if they're not brainwashed by religion.
Stalin didn't stay in power for 30 years because people kept voting for him.
[–]Teuthex 3 points4 points5 points 7 months ago
Admitting the danger of religious ideologies does not remove the danger from non-religious ideologies. People have reasons for doing bad things, and doing them because God told them to or because they believe they will be rewarded in the afterlife for doing so is not a reason that can be argued with unless the basis for all similar beliefs are removed entirely. People don't do bad things because they don't believe in God. It doesn't follow. The absence of a God does not issue divine commands. Bad people will do bad things and good people will do good things, but religion is how you get good people to do bad things, by making them believe they are good.
[–]dablya -2 points-1 points0 points 7 months ago
Admitting the danger of religious ideologies does not remove the danger from non-religious ideologies.
I completely agree with this. What I disagree with is this:
when it comes to evil, religion has a much greater potential to do evil.
People have a great potential to do evil.
People don't do bad things because they don't believe in God.
You're the second person to imply that this is my position. Maybe I wasn't clear in some comment, but don't mean to say that people do bad things because they don't believe in God. I'm saying people that don't believe in God do bad things.
Bad people will do bad things and good people will do good things but religion is how you get good people to do bad things, by making them believe they are good.
As much as I enjoy the original quote, I don't believe it's true. People, good and bad, will do good and bad things regardless of their faith in a deity.
[–]MyriPlanet 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
I could give you a story of a mother who shot her son in the back of the head to 'send him to heaven'.
She wasn't taking pleasure from pain, she wasn't being a sadist, and in light of her worldview (heaven is eternal paradise) what she did made perfect sense. She was accepting her own damnation to save her son, who she loved.
Except, in the real world, she just killed an innocent kid.
I'm not saying people never use religion to justify evil behavior. I'm saying religion is not necessary to justify evil behavior and there are a lot of secular people who are evil without god. Taking joy at seeing another human being die, for example, is a secular position that can't be rationally countered.
[–]Bohred_Physicist 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
Name ONE person, who is secular and uses their disbelief in god to justify irrational/evil behavior. Go ahead I'll wait.
[–]VanillaWafers 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
Facial Hair: the root of all good and evil.
[–]aikbix 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
Higher res version
Same image with Carl Sagan instead of Bill Gates
[–]ChadwickHenryWard 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
The problem is that both Islam and Christianity have very bad morals espoused in their books, and by important and influential thinkers throughout their history.
[–]IslamIsTheLight 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
The problem here is that there's tons of different "flavors" of Christianity/Islam/whatever. In fact, the term "Christian" is just silly to begin with how we use it. Penn Jillette talks about it a bit in a bigthink video, it's pretty interesting and I highly recommend watching it (4:50 in for relevant information). Thing is, sure MLK was a Christian. But there's even Christians out there today (extreme right wing ones, but still) who suggest that King was not a Christian. Just Google "Martin Luther King Virgin Birth". It's been brought up before (I believe by Hitchens, just for example) that King didn't believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ OR the virgin birth. These are considered central tenets of Christianity to most Christians.
Then you have the split of Sunni/Shia Muslims. Then you have Muslims who think that certain things in the Hadith/Quran are just sort of recommended, not necessarily "dogma". Terms like "Christian" and "Muslim" are not very helpful, as their definitions are becoming more and more nebulous. King was a great Christian to many, yet he believed things that, to many, are completely heretical and blasphemous. Comparing Martin Luther King, Jr. to say, Pat Robertson and saying "see! there's good ones and bad ones!" is just silly. It's apples and oranges.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
The only real flaw with this picture is that all of the bad "insert religion here" people, are motivated by their religion to do these bad things. If it wasn't for religion they would most likely continue being good people.
That being said, some people are also good because of their religion, and if it wasnt for religion then they wouldnt really be good.
[–]Quis_Custodiet 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
Malcolm X was a bit of a fuck actually. Muhammed Ali would be okay if you needed a famous guy.
[–]mars_cross 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
He was good at punching the crap out of people.
He was a strong opponent of the Vietnam war, insipring MLK to voice that same opinion; winning on appeal to the Supreme Court his refusal to be drafted on grounds of his religion and concientious objection.
Having said that, he also has black supremacist traita, but those are lesser known in general than X's, so he'd be a less awful public example.
[–]TheKyleBaxter 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
I think you misunderstand the word 'correlate'.
[–]Airazz 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
Name one good thing that could only be done by religious person, but not by non-religious. Now think of one evil thing that could only be done in the name of religion.
Also, strictly technically speaking, Stalin was a religion himself. Kind of similar to Kim Jong-Il, elevated way above normal humans.
[–]Sifraxus 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
Playing the devil's advocate here, I'm just going to say this:
There are no "good Christians" or "good Muslims".
To bear the title of a "true Christian/Muslim", they simply cannot pick and choose what's worth following from the Bible. You can be good (or bad) regardless of what your religion is.
To me, your so called "good Christians/Muslims" are just good people that have been disillusioned and brainwashed into thinking a certain way as dictated by their respective religious authority figures.
At least your "bad Christians/Muslims" are willing to accept ALL of the Holy Book, and not just picking and choosing.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
Though apparently evil correlates with distinctive facial hair...
[–]Loop_Within_A_Loop 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
I think just distinctive hair, sir.
Look at Malcolm X and Bill Gates.
WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?!?!?!
[–]fine_young_cannibal 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/k7ews/hey_ratheism_i_made_something_for_you_hope_you/c2i24d1
No shame huh?
Considering I've been on reddit for 3 months and that particular post was submitted 4 months ago, it isn't likely that I would have seen it (and in fact, I haven't). So no, I have no shame...
Edit: I would instead posit that great minds think alike good sir.
[–]minno -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
You can die if you have cancer, and you can die if you don't have cancer. Death is not correlated with cancer. Get over it.
[–]TantaeUirtutis 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
That's a poor comparison since "you can die if you have cancer" should be "you will die if you have cancer (without treatment)". So your incorrect conclusion is a result of an incorrect assertion.
So how does that relate to the image (are you suggesting there is an incorrect assertion / conclusion in the image)?
[–]MrKequc -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
You will also die if you are treated for cancer, you'll just die later on. You'll also die if you don't have cancer ever. But if you have the cancer removed, or if you don't have the cancer ever, aren't you better off? I think the comparison fits.
[–]TantaeUirtutis -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
But if you have the cancer removed, or if you don't have the cancer ever, aren't you better off?
According to the "Death is not correlated with cancer." conclusion that I replied to (and that you just said fits), apparently it makes no difference.
[–]hacksoncode 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Technically true. However, you might have a different outcome if you asked which ones promoted a fundamentalist dogmatic ideology.
[–]spaektor 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
i'd like to see the actual conclusion / lesson be in a bigger font, as opposed to "GET OVER IT." because it seems like you're having a hard time getting over people not getting over it... get it?
[–]saqeeb98 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
This just proves that every evil person must have a mustache
/:{(
[–]MoistNugget 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
I thought this had something to do with their facial hair at first.
[–]littlegoddess 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
In the end it's not about your belief in god or follow any religion, it has everything to do with the crazy factor!
[–]micropwn 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
But there is a correlation between facial hair and ethics......
[–]TheBakula 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
So, they just correlate with facial hair?
[–]malvoliosf 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Bill Gates? OK, he's not as bad as Stalin, but he's no ... well, some ordinary, barely-evil person. Bill Gates is moderately evil. Bill Gates is the Scott Evil of evil.
[–]Digimonkeisari 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
But It's funny how Hitler said that the "Aryans" were God's chosen race etc. and Osama Bin Laden "justified" alot of the stuff he did by his religious beliefs.
[–]winstonsmith2004 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Religion does not always ever correlate with ethics.
[–]DefinitelyRelephant 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago*
Malcolm X?? Really?
[–]runefar 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
wasnt stalin a supporter of atheists to a extremist level but he was religous i read that some where i think. Do not downvote me if i am wrong just respond
[–]gatesy992 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
According to that chart the odds are 2:1 that it does depend on religion, Checkmate?
[–]djivan 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Didn't Malcolm X belive in Eye for an eye? Don't down vote me either just correct me humiliatingly.
[–]slowestpoke 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
thats true.. but this did prove one thing, all 3 out of 4 people with mustaches are evil
[–]nicksauce 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago*
Religion does not always correlate with ethics. Get over it.
I've never heard anyone claim religion always correlates with ethics. Against whom, exactly, are you arguing?
[–]gravy_train_ 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Damn right, took me a long time to realize this.
[–]CharlieTango 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Malcom X is considered a good muslim....really?
[–]kills_joy 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Obviously facial hair does correlate though, based on this selection
[–]rinoshea 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
This has been reposted more times than all of us can count.
[–]smilles 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Malcolm X was not a good person in my book.
[–]AddictiveSoup 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
No one knows what hitler was for sure, he used religion to get to the people.
[–]Kluck123 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
TIL Stalin was an atheist.
[–]NukeThePope 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
There is a correlation between religion and ethics, and it's consistently negative as compared to moral systems based on evidence and reason.
[–]psychedelisch 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Thought this was an infographic on facial hair, very dissapoint.
[–]niczar 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Inappropriate use of "ethics."
[–]nathiaas 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Bill Gates; the standard of atheist ethics.
so...much...fail...
[–]MixedUpZombie 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
if you're gonna kill and oppress people, at least do it over something that exists.
[–]babyblue17 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Excuse me but since when was hitler christian? Didn't he prosecute and kill Christian clergy members. I could be wrong but that didn't sound right...
[–]daimou 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Hitler was a Catholic as a matter of fact.
Yea growing up but so was I and that doesn't mean I am know. It's also a fact that he persecuted and kill catholic priests. Along with many other Christians my question is was a certain sect of Christianity or not at all?
[–]henstav 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Since ethics (good ethics at least) consists of a logical structure consisting traditionally descriptive and normative premises and require reason more than anything else I would say that religion corralate with ethics quite seldom.
[–]HellHaven 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Stalin went to seminary school and aspired to a priest. Only after the church punished him for reading banned books did he abandon his faith.
[–]englad 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
I disagree about Stalin being without religion, he essentially started his own state religion - Stalinism
I think evil is subjective to which side you belong too.
Lots of muslims see Bin Laden as a hero. And lots of Russians see Stalin as a hero.
And someone obvoiusly hated Martin Luther king Jr. Just as ALOT of apple users wants Bill gates head on a pole.
[–]viskarenvisla 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
I wonder if there are any immediately recognizable evil Buddhists, Hindus, or Jews.
[–]bowfinger89 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Hitler was not necessarily a Xian
[–]MadDoHap 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
but we can see a tendency towards evil, if you have a beard...
[–]NiceDay4ASulk 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Look, here are 6 extreme data points! This shows a clear lack of correlation, right?
[–]ArcWinter 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
And then the nihilists are off in the corner, drinking tea, chuckling softly.
[–]fatherrabbi -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
Nation of Islam =/= Traditional Islam
Source: I'm Muslim/Basic Knowledge. Totally agree with OP.
[–]desipride1991 -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
THIS IS AN IRRATIONAL ARGUMENT FOR WHETHER THERE IS A CORRELATION BETWEEN EVIL AND BEING NON-RELIGIOUS, and GOOD AND RELIGIOUS.
PLEASE COME BACK WITH A EVIDENCE THAT CAN SUBSTANTIATE YOUR CLAIMS.
[–]Taelon 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Please come back with your caps lock off.
[–]desipride1991 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
This is an irrational argument for whether there is a correlation between evil and being non-religious, and good an religious.
Please come back with evidence that can substantiate your claims.
Congratulations and welcome to the internet.
:D!!!
[–]helloes1111111111111 -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
Bill Gates? Ethical? Really?
[–]wackylol -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
Nation of Islam is to Islam what Aryan Nations is to Christianity. Both are hate groups with racist beliefs that rally behind a bastardization of their stated religion. Aryan Nations describes itself as "Christian" but how many Christians describe themselves as supporting of Aryan Nations and how many people would take issue with them even describing themselves as such based in their beliefs which in many ways are incompatible? Same exact thing.
[–]bananabread75 -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
Calling Bill Gates ethical is a bit of a stretch.
[–]nmap -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
Bill Gates? Bill "I have decided we should not publish these extensions" Gates?
Looks like somebody needs a history lesson.
Edit: Fixed link.
[–]mdmakk -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
Not so sure about Malcolm X. i risk sounding like a fundie, but in my opinion Islam's peaceful aspects are far and few between.
[–]JanitorOne 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Your opinion is false.
Next time say "to my understanding."
[–]Anarchobrony -8 points-7 points-6 points 7 months ago
Implying that Bill Gates is an ethical person. See: Windows.
And no, giving away a portion of the money he made scumfucking the entire tech industry doesn't make up for it, sorry.
[–]Sifraxus 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
Well, since it doesn't matter, I suppose he should just horde all of his money and not bother trying to do anything "good".
[–][deleted] 3 months ago
[–]Anarchobrony -1 points0 points1 point 3 months ago
The money that should be in the pockets of workers and not world-class charlatans?
Bill gates an ethical guy ? you must be joking.
[–]Jackle13 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
He is the most charitable person in the history of the world. Yes, Internet Explorer sucks, but I think you can forgive him for that.
Bill Gates is like John Rockefeller, both are ethical in their charity, but noetheless unethical in the way they became wealthy.
So Bill Gates is only partly ethical, just like the rest of us -:)
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 3 months ago
I guess there is, but it would probably take many decades, unless you come up with a revolutionary idea. Anyway, it usually takes some infringements to common laws and ethics to become wealthy.
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
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