No such thing as "pro-life" only "anti-choice"

dustlesswalnut · 8 months

Currently it's illegal to abort a fetus after it's reached the stage where it'd be viable outside the uterus, in most states that's recognized as 24-26 weeks.

I have no problem with this. 10-20% of known pregnancies end in miscarriage, and it's estimated that 30-50% of successfully fertilized eggs fail to implant, so the cutoff being "would this survive if delivered" is, to me, pretty reasonable.

pillage · 8 months

Why can't I be an atheist and pro-life?

andyhenault · 8 months

Is it just me, or are both sides of this debate arguing different points? Women want choice, and pro-lifers are against what they perceive as murder. The question should really be whether or not it should be considered murder, and if it is, determine whether or not it is deemed acceptable. If you determine that it is in fact considered alive, then the circumstances in which it came to be (rape, accident, whatever) should be completely irrelevant. At that point you would be knowingly committing murder simply to avoid the inconvenience of raising a child.

However, if you determine it is not a human, then case closed. Do what you want. Choice is not the argument.

Baby_Wayne · 8 months

I'm pro-choice, but that's a terrible argument. Selfish at best.

jlking3 · 8 months

Here's another issue, and this one speaks more personally to me. My sister had an ectopic pregnancy. Now, there shouldn't be any issue about this, right?

Wrong.

Apparently, some ectopic pregnancies have gone to term, and if life starts at conception, then those cells are living babies that, according to some, should not be tampered with or manipulated in any way, shape, or form by anyone other than God.

If the fallopian tube bursts, both mom and child die unless immediate medical treatment is obtained (as in blood transfusions within minutes), in which case the mother may live.

That means that extreme pro-life people actually insist that you wait until the fallopian tube bursts before getting medical treatment, because there is a chance that the child can be taken to viability, even in the fallopian tube--this indicates "the miraculous hand of God at work," according to them.

If the pro-lifers had had their way, my sister would have died when her fallopian tube would have burst. The doctors who performed the surgery on my sister said that if the tube had ruptured, she would have likely died within 5-10 minutes from internal hemorrhaging.

Not only would my sister have been dead, but my sister would not have later given birth to my adorable, now 4-year old twin nieces, and would not be pregnant with a nephew due in March.

So all those who are in favor of this extreme anti-abortion stance are not only in favor of my sister being dead, but they also believe that it was not truly in God's will for my nieces to have ever existed.

I have no problem with telling anti-abortion people that their stance would have undoubtedly killed my sister and denied me the opportunity to be an uncle to two (hopefully three) amazing children.

I would love for those people to look my sister in the face and tell her that God would have rather she died than had that emergency procedure to terminate the ectopic pregnancy and to look my nieces in their faces and tell them that it was not God's will that they be born and they are therefore abhorrent to God because my sister subverted God's will by terminating an ectopic pregnancy, saving her life.

Anyone who supports abortion regulation that does not include a blanket exception for ectopic pregnancies is essentially saying that God really wanted my sister to be dead and my nieces (and in March, my nephew) should have never even been conceived, let alone born.

And I will NEVER forgive anyone who truly believes that.

[deleted] · 8 months

What has this to do with atheism or, for that matter, religion at all?

Some people may defend their opinions from religious viewpoints, but the actual issue really has nothing to do with religion. One needs not be religious to be "pro-life."

I didn't know "atheist" means "pro-choice."

jarobat · 8 months

I'm going to say it again (and get downvoted again... sigh)

Keep this motherfucking shit out of r/atheism

radicallymoderate · 8 months

I always thought the most revealing statistic, if it could be determined, is what percentage of abortions are chosen by women who consider themselves to be "pro-life," whether openly or internally. Because if they're willing to bend what they consider to be an unbendable moral law, they'd certainly be willing to bend any "manmade" law against abortion. Abortion needs to be legal, safe and as rare as we as a society can manage.

294261 · 8 months

Saying lifers are "anti-choice" is equivalent to saying choicers are "anti-life", which would not be tolerated. This does nothing but anger people and lower the level of discourse.

kelsen89 · 8 months

Dumb title.

Melodicon · 8 months

I disagree with this post, purely because the moment conservatives hear themselves being called "anti-choice," they will call their opposition "anti-life."

Psy-Kosh · 8 months

I'm actually kinda against later term abortion, I think there're some tricky questions to ask, but fundamentally has to do with "when does consciousness/subjective experience start?" (That'd be the central question re the ethics)

In my case, however, I'm really pro life... not just "before birth"... (I'm pro-life in the sense of am morally opposed to death and I think we should hack our genes, etc etc etc to boost lifespan/healthspan, etc..)

nepidae · 8 months

It is my choice to shit all over your house.

The fact is both of those are simply labels with contextual meanings. Getting hung up on the individual terms does nothing for any cause except for those who agree with you (and can be fodder for those that disagree I guess.)

az_liberal_geek · 8 months

What has always irked me about the abortion debate is that the two "sides" are arguing completely different points. There is no commonality that can be reached if the sides can't agree on what to disagree about.

The sides are termed "pro-life" and "pro-choice". In fact, those are each answering separate questions; both of which can have a yes/no answer.

Question 1: Does life begin at conception? Yes or No

Question 2: Does each woman have the right to choose an abortion? Yes or No

There are four different permutations of this:

Permutation 1: Life begins at conception. An individual woman may not choose to have an abortion.

Permutation 2: Life begins at conception. An individual woman may choose to have an abortion.

Permutation 3: Life does not begin at conception. An individual woman may not choose to have an abortion.

Permutation 4: Life does not begin at conception. An individual woman may choose to have an abortion.

A person that identifies with "pro-life" will nearly always fit into Permutation 1. The "pro-choice" camp is distributed between 2 and 4. I don't know that anybody would realistically subscribe to Permutation 3.

Personally, I know quite a few "pro-choice" advocates that believe that life begins at conception and feel that abortion is killing the child. However, they believe their their own beliefs shouldn't dictate how somebody else lives their life -- hence, "pro-choice", even though their personal beliefs fit almost entirely within the "pro-life" spectrum.

DownWithTheSickness · 8 months

Couple things.

One, I would think this post belongs in r/politics rather than r/atheism. I not sure what abortion has to do with atheism. This subreddit has been off track lately, in my opinion.

Two, I don't like the power given to the state or parents about life, please note the word "about."

I drunk driver hits a pedestrian who is pregnant and the baby miscarries. The driver is charged with voluntary manslaughter (for the fetus) and assault with a deadly weapon (for the mom).

What gives the state or parents to give the fetus status as a person? Either a fetus is a person or is not a person. If a drunk driver or the potential mom ends the pregnancy, then the status of the fetus should remain the same. The government should stick to a position on this.

Steppen_Wolf · 8 months

I've always felt that laws should only regulate matters that affect society as a whole. A murder affects society because it removes a member from it and it causes anxiety and distrust, in a way in breaks the social contract as people are expected to be "good", pay their taxes and so on and in exchange they expect that their right granted by the state are respected. A murder breaks that concept, an abortion doesn't because nobody is suddenly gonna be afraid of being aborted just because their neighbor got an abortion.

There no real reason to ban abortion other than the religious concept of "all life is holy", and as I believe most decent democracies have at least in theory a separation between church and state, there's no reason to ban abortion other than as a tool of a group of people to impose religious beliefs on all of society.

not_atheist_enough · 8 months

NOT ATHEIST ENOUGH

Not all theists are pro-life, and there is no inherent reason why all atheists must be pro-choice.

Wheat_Grinder · 8 months

Abortion: Do I want to be against women's rights, or do I want to be against babies?

charalanahzard · 8 months

I'm very pro-choice, for so many reasons. Someone very close to me had an abortion when she was very young, and, let's just say - if she hadn't, my sister and I probably would never have been born.

Two healthy children raised by a mature woman who didn't have to lose her youth beats one unwanted child who'd end up living with his/her grandparents, in my opinion. We were raised with money, love, happiness, maturity and care, and my mother didn't have to waste her life and miss out on so many experiences as a result. 3 brilliant lives at the price of one 1 life seems more like justice than murder - especially when you're simply removing a cluster of cells.

CharlieTango · 8 months

Pregnancy is something that can be avoided, life isnt.

As a pro-life atheist, fuck you op.

LotusBunny · 8 months

I'm adamantly pro-choice, but attacking the person making an argument rather than the argument itself is neither valid nor productive. I thought that r/atheism was for rationalism?

jewsuslives · 8 months

I don't care whether you believe in God or not, a zygote is not a human. An unborn fetus with a brain, heart, lungs and bones is a human being, or close enough to a human being for us to err on the side of safety. Bottom line is, contraception and early abortion are fine. Late abortion is murder.

Takuza · 8 months

There are a myriad of legitimate reasons to be Pro-life (in the widely accepted meaning of the term) and an atheist. This has as little to do with atheism as a post supporting Ron Paul does.

keep-it · 8 months

Sorry Reddit, don't agree with this at all

SamePaige · 8 months

This post has taken on a life of its own, and I have replied to a few comments. Let me take a moment and comment on the original post--- right on! I applaud this woman.

Kaminoshi · 8 months

I really dislike it when people say things like that: "Anti-Choice" or "Anti-Life". It shows a deep misunderstanding of the other's argument. pro-life people are not arguing that women should not be given a choice, even though it seems that way. They see it as when something is conceived, it's alive, and killing that life is a terrible thing. Some may be more extreme in their views than others, but the main argument is not about choice, but about whether or not the act is murder. For the people who are pro-choice, of course, they argue more on women's ability to do what she wants with her own body, and so saying you are "anti-life" is unfair. You really should stop and figure out what the hell the other side is arguing before you decide to demonize them.

Nougat · 8 months

I have a problem with "men should have no say in the matter." It's okay for a woman to abort a pregnancy against the father's wishes, but if the father prefers abortion and the mother doesn't, the father is on the hook for child support.

If men shouldn't have any say in the question of abortion, they they should also never be held responsible for child support.

SnakeMan448 · 8 months

The nail in the coffin is that pro-lifers will fight tooth and nail to stop a twist of flesh from being aborted, but won't lift a finger to ensure that it leaves the mother under sanitary conditions; that it grows up in a sanitary, secure and caring environment; that it recieves a good education; that, in general, it lives a good life.

What's more, they won't adopt the children that were given up for adoption; the children produced from the unwanted preganacies that they fight to have continue. They are fiercely opposed to contraceptive methods, that would reduce those unwanted preganacies. They are opposed to sex education, that would educate people to make correct choices. And (this may be a cheap shot) that won't live up to their name; they won't fight to stop the death penalty, nor promote education that is focused on unjustified murder.

I just can't see pro-life as a wholly serious position; it's just people pushing their own religious ideaologies onto other people. I am, of course, pro-choice politically, and my personal stance is irrelevant, as men should have no say in this choice, save for a doctor. But I would rather that the decision was made whilst well informed, and for a valid reason.

yodaman293 · 8 months

I'm sorry, how is being pregnant worse than being killed?

[deleted] · 8 months

So the only thing holding up her argument is that she is a woman and can get pregnant. Good thing for her there are no women who are against abortion...oh wait.

omaolligain · 8 months

NOT RELEVANT TO ATHEISM

KKV · 8 months

Will you just stop with the propagandistic phrasing war?

Pro lifers can just start calling you "Anti-life" and you can all beat each other over the head with labels all over again.

ProfessorSamuelOak · 8 months

Sorry to everyone who thinks this is a meaningful picture, but being killed is not really comparable to being pregnant. Atheist AND pro-life: when you know there's not a heaven for those unborn children to go to, you learn to understand that you should give them a chance at life.

Tron-Gorf · 8 months

If men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

RoseRedd · 8 months

In my lifetime I have had an abortion, multiple miscarrages, and a baby. In my first-trimester miscarages, I lost pregnancies. I lost the potential for a child. I know women who have had stillbirths. They lost babies. There is a difference.

v_soma · 8 months

People REALLY need to stop calling it "Pro-Life".

People who call themselves "Pro-Life" do not protest in that cause to save lives of animals who are slaughtered everyday.
People who call themselves "Pro-Life" are not driven by that cause to save the lives of the 25000 humans who die everyday from starvation.
People who call themselves "Pro-Life" are not driven by that cause to fund and support scientific research (especially with stem cells) that could end up saving thousands or even millions of lives.

No, these people can best be described as "Anti-Choice" as OP said, if not "Pro-Human-Zygote/Fetus". Once you're out of the birth canal, they couldn't care less about you.

malvoliosf · 8 months

Why is this on /r/atheism? Shouldn't this be posted on, I don't know, /r/moreendlessargumentsaboutabortion or somewhere?

erickyeagle · 8 months

Honestly, most "pro-life" people are "pro-equal-choice", not "anti-choice". Their argument (usually) isn't "hey, how can we keep women down?", but "how can we protect what we consider to be human life?". Instead of trying to demonize the other side like you are doing now (and they do often as well), we should discuss what constitutes a human being and when rights of humans should be observed.

adictgamer · 8 months

Once a fetus has a heart beat and brainwaves it is human and at that point abortion for most reasons is murder. The choice was made when you had sex without proper birth control. Yes I know it is terrible that rapes happen and that is not a choice, but the morning after pill and/or medically terminating the pregnancy before it becomes more than a few cells is still a choice. There are many couples in the US lining up to adopt newborns. Knowing that this life is all we have I think life is to precious to not be dearly valued and protected.

I am atheist. I am also anti-war (pro defense though). I am also anti-death penalty too many convictions have been turned around from faulty evidence, and the chance of murdering an innocent person is not worth entertaining the death penalty. It is also kind of barbaric.

ChadwickHenryWard · 8 months

,I've never worked in an abortion clinic, but I'm told that's not unheard of for a protestor to come in, get a procedure, and show up again on Monday protesting. Some of them just protest because people in their family/church make them, but some just honestly feel it's okay if they do it

JesusSavesAtWalMart · 8 months

Am I the only one who thinks abortion is taking a life but is still pro choice? I mean, I totally get why pro-lifers are against abortion, I'm just not in agreement with them.

pbrand · 8 months

I'm pro-choice but I find that counter-poster to be entirely without logic. Sorry.

JerkyIsSuperior · 8 months

It's easy to distinguish "pro-life" and "anti-choice", and that is the stance towards contraception.

People who really want to reduce abortions will push contraceptives and a comprehensive sexual education. Fucktards who want to turn women into baby factories will vehemently oppose both, even more than actual abortions.

Cheddar_Soup · 8 months

Is this woman suggesting that being pregnant is worse than dying before given a chance at life?

youni89 · 8 months

Personally Im against abortion, but I think abortion should be available and government must support it because there are situations where having an abortion saves the life of the mother etc.

Abortion shouldnt be arbitrarily dictated by law, but the issue of abortion and unwanted pregnancies must be dealt through proper social-awareness and education, educating men and women of all ages to use contraception and only have children when they are ready, physically, mentally, and financially. I diagree with most of the right-wing conservative christian opposition to abortion (Im christian) and I believe that there is a choice for the mother.

However, I think having an abortion just because you got pregnant for no good reason by fooling around or in cases where it could have been clearly preventable and just lightly going through with it is wrong on so many levels, but in serious cases like rape or medical conditions etc abortion must be considered as an option.

Again, SEX EDUCATION and CONTRACEPTIVES are the real answers! let's be educated and becareful when it comes to the realm of sex because a child is not only a big responsibility but also a human being.

parttimehuman · 8 months

I think that encroaching on a person's right to choose for themselves will ultimately be found to be the bedrock of actual objective morality. For example, if you kill someone you're taking away their choice to live. That's the only way you can quantify morality. The choice of the individual is paramount. A fetus is incapable of being self aware, it should be the mother's choice whether or not she is willing and or able to raise a child. Obviously it can be argued that the fetus will eventually become a thinking human being, however, a seed is not a tree.

cjcmd · 8 months

Aren't they both true?

donies · 8 months

to quote 4chan

“I am undecided about abortion.

on one hand I support it cause its killing children.

on the other, it gives women a choice"

aeiluindae · 8 months

The thing is, if we consider it wrong to kill babies, you certainly can't kill a fetus who could in theory be born and survive. Also, if the claim that a human can be considered a person from the moment of fertilization is true, then abortion and even contraception that works by preventing implantation (i.e. the way the pill works) are morally equivalent to murder. Please keep in mind that this is the perspective that many pro-life people and organizations are coming from, not out of sexism, but from actual concern that we are murdering people, because if you accept their premise (life/personhood begins at conception) as true, you can't not agree and still be a moral person.

Of course, the claim of personhood from fertilization is a bit scientifically ridiculous since up until around 9 days after fertilization the ball of cells may become more than one person (identical twins). There isn't even a hint of a brain or spinal cord until at least 3 weeks after fertilization, after the embryo has implanted in the uterine wall. The pill stops everything before this stage and embryonic stem cells are taken at the blastocyst stage before twins can form. (look up embryonic development on Wikipedia)

To prevent the possibility of any wrongdoing based on the scientific knowledge we currently have, it would seem to be safest to give a span of a week or two after a pregnancy test can be accurate where a woman can choose to terminate the pregnancy for any reason. This is being super duper safe. Most abortions happen in the first trimester already, this would push them a bit earlier. One could also simply put the end of the first trimester (once the embryo/fetus has a detectable heartbeat) as the cutoff, which would inconvenience fewer people. This keeps a woman's right to choose to have a baby even if someone screwed up and didn't use contraception or she got exceptionally unlucky, but keeps the moral issues to a minimum, based again on our scientific knowledge, plus a mile-wide safety margin so that if future development changes something like how early an embryo can be brought to term outside the uterus, we won't look too much like barbarians.

Of course, some religious people who hold that life begins at conception hold that belief because of some mystical belief about a soul. Here's my personal view. I'm a christian and I figure that the soul, whatever it is, if it exists as a separate entity, is either like the mind or IS the mind. It's something the body does, not something the body has attached to it. If it continues after death it's because God memorized it. Lots of people will disagree with me, but honestly, it's not like the Bible is terribly specific either ("soul" is basically only used to refer to the core of someone's identity, something that can only come into being once the person has a brain to develop an identity, not as any sort of separate entity, except maybe in Revelation, which is heavily metaphorical and nigh-incomprehensible anyway, even fundies think so, and bicker endlessly as a result), and most of our conception of the afterlife comes from the Greeks via medieval scholars anyway. We certainly can't prove the existence of a soul, much less when we get one, so it's useless for making legal decisions because there's no way we can all agree on anything about it. That's why I stick close to the science on this issue. Abortion is one ethical issue that falls well within the purview of science, not philosophy.

TL;DR Abortion is an issue easily decided by a combination of science and prudence. It is not, in my opinion, a women's rights issue until both sides of the debate can agree on the facts about embryonic development which inform the ethics of terminating a pregnancy. Both sides currently talk right past each other.

otakuman · 8 months

It's easy being anti-contraceptives when you're not the one getting pregnant. Seriously, this is what the whole pro-life debate is overlooking. Why do they insist on not giving sex education to teenagers?

gulmo · 8 months

Why is this posted in r/atheism? Being an atheist does not always mean you are pro choice.

unnaturalbeast · 8 months

The abortion issue is truly a multilayer mess at best. It seems to have facets of all of the biggest most ingrained issues all rolled into one catastrophic disaster of an issue. When does life begin? Does being born entitle you to certain rights? Is it a living person's right to make choices for another living person dependent on their body? Are all people able to make that decision? Is life sacred? What makes life sacred? Does having sex mean you consent to having a child? Is it the governments right to dictate who can have a very sensitive medical procedure?

All of America's worst demons: Rights, Religion, Sex, Welfare, Health Care, Size of Government. All in one clusterfuck of an issue. I'd be surprised if we sort it out anytime in the next century.

JamesR4494 · 8 months

What just because I'm an atheist and don't agree with religion does that mean I have to think abortion is okay just because religious people disagree with it?

Keep this shit out of /r/athiesm.

As one of the posts here on /r/athiesm said and I'm heavily paraphrasing here, Life is sacred because the odds of you being conceived are nearly impossible.

koopa2222 · 8 months

If we have pro-life as a position, we might as well have anti-life also

CheeseFromCows · 8 months

Why is this on r/atheism...? I see no reference to atheism (or even theism) in the picture... You can be pro-life and atheist or pro-choice it doesn't matter...

apalms · 8 months

Clearly the man has the better argument, mostly because his sign is bigger.

beamish14 · 8 months

They're not just anti-choice. They're anti-choice TERRORISTS. Throw their own lexicon back at these horrible people.

MalcomEx · 8 months

You are a stupid person

Grizmeer · 8 months

Im pro choice but that girl has one of the worst agruments I have ever read.

doomslice · 8 months

There is such a thing as false dilemma though.

whiteknight521 · 8 months

Scumbag atheists: when one chooses theism we say "there is no such thing as choice, causal determinism is the only logical way of thinking about it". When talking about abortion, we say that it is a choice.

Typical_White_Person · 8 months

There are plenty of choices made before the girl gets pregnant. If she and the father had made better ones, it wouldn't come down to deciding whether or not to kill a baby.

Zuigen · 8 months

This is only mildly relevant, but can anyone explain to me the concept of stopping an abortion for a dying fetus that will kill its mother? Stopping life saving abortions has never seemed pro-life to me, only pro-killing mothers. I'm sure most pro-lifers arent ok with this either, but can anyone explain to me the thinking behind those who are?

[deleted] · 8 months

You know that one can be anti-abortion and be an atheist at the same time right? I'm sure you also know that its entirely possible to be anti-abortion but not want government to legislate against abortion.

I don't believe in invisible people, I don't want government touching abortion but I consider the act itself to be utterly repugnant unless there is a good health reason to do it. For me its simple self-responsibility, if you choose to have sex then you should choose to deal with the consequences of the action; if that means carrying a child to term and then giving it up then so be it.

escapist11 · 8 months

It can't be that hard to be pro-life when you're pro-war.

walking_away_ · 8 months

I am personally against abortion. The keyword being 'personally'. I have so many friends and family members who are dying to get pregnant and cannot. Half the women in my family had their uterus removed due to cancer, and it is a possibility I may not be able to have children. Because of that emotional factor, I do believe once that egg is fertilized one shouldn't abort, unless there are risks to the mother's life, or a rape occurred.

Those are my beliefs. However, I understand that not everyone thinks the same. I would never vote to stop abortions because I know that for some people that is an option. The only one. I also have people in my family who have had abortions and I supported them 100%.

I just absolutely hate, and I am sick and tired of people thinking they have a say in what others should or should not do to their bodies. If you are against abortion, don't abort.

Sorry. I had to rage.

DrStevenPoop · 8 months

What's the choice we are talking about here? It's abortion right? So, wouldn't the correct terms be "pro-abortion" or "anti-abortion"?

LadyKillDrive · 8 months

Motherhood should not be a punishment for having sex. If those people standing outside Planned Parenthood with their 'fake-dead-fetus-in-a-jar-" signs actually did something POSITIVE or constructive they might make their points across better. What about all the children on this earth ALREADY born? How many children in this country need foster homes or adoption?

Cort87 · 8 months

Personally, I think there should be no reason to abort a baby. I just don't think it's right.

soyelmejor · 8 months

I love how these "pro-lifes" support the death sentence.

vinomfire · 8 months

This topic always bothers me. Personally, I'm against abortion because there are so many other options, and people know the risks pf what they do when they have sexual relations. However, it's ultimately not the government's right to say whether people can get abortions or not before a certain period in the pregnancy. I still believe that people shouldn't get them though, Adoption is always an option and if you look at it, abortion stops the development of a multi-cellular being with human DNA and the potential for life.

[deleted] · 8 months

Pro-life, ironically, stops after birth. We don't want abortion, but we sure as hell don't want any sort of well-funded government program that helps that child in case of need. That'd be communism and communism is evil.


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