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word. (imgur.com)
submitted 8 months ago by pineappleespresso
[–]sesse 64 points65 points66 points 8 months ago
Thank Photoshop!
[–]matthew011029 45 points46 points47 points 8 months ago
WHY WILL YOU DO THAT TO MY EYES
[–]TNoD 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
Still partially blind.
[–][deleted] -7 points-6 points-5 points 8 months ago
you all make it sound like modern christians did this to you. i'm agnostic, but acting as though we have been at the point of ancient catholic ruler's swords makes us sound pathetic. you're on reddit, for god's sake.
[–]matthew011029 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Instead of replying to my comment, which is entirely irrelevant to yours, why don't you go and submit a comment instead of replying, like most other people?
[–]probablyrobots -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
the worst thing is it makes all of the links look purple!!!
[–]bako -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
Talk about gouging eyes out..
[–]dripless_cactus 7 points8 points9 points 8 months ago
...and accused them of theft from their own organization while authorities neglected the investigation of their disappearance which would have led to the discovery of their brutally murdered corpse bits.
True story.
[–]KarmakazeNZ 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Note to redditors coming in late. Read the whole fucking thing. The last sentence is the most important part.
[–]Jokrmein 17 points18 points19 points 8 months ago
Actually I haven't done shit because I wasn't alive for 1500 years.
[–]manueslapera 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
I was. It was a lot of fun.
[–]Jokrmein -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
Atheist always have more fun...
[–]KarmakazeNZ 9 points10 points11 points 8 months ago
That's cool. She never said you did. What she did say is that what happened during those 1500 years is persecution, not being laughed at. So when I laugh at you for being a moron that believes in the sky fairy, don't call it persecution unless I'm also crushing your balls in a vice at the same time.
Fair enough?
[–]Bugsysservant 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
But that logic is deeply flawed. I don't believe atheists in any way persecute Christians (at least not in America, I can't speak for the entire world), but the argument that worse persecutions existed in the past, so minor ones aren't actually persecution is fallacious. Christians initially persecuted Mormons. However, if Mormons in Utah decided to not hire Christians, that would still be persecution. It doesn't matter that Mormons have suffered far worse at the hands of Christians in the past, it only matters that their actions meet the definition of persecution.
[–]runblue 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
To butt into this conversation with my own 2 cents, OP seems to be suggesting that Christians think that being laughed at IS persecution. A quick trip to r/christianity will show that things like "zombie jesus" and "skydaddy" are BANNED IN THE RULES. Anytime anyone mentions those things, there is a cry of butthurt and people link to the rules like crazy.
Basically, atheists laughing at Christians should not be considered persecution, and is especially ironic in light of treatment of atheists in the past.
[–]Bugsysservant 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I don't disagree that atheists don't persecute Christians. What I object to is just the argument that degree of effect or past history in any way define what persecution is. My issue was with the logic, not the conclusion.
Also, I'm not sure that those terms are banned because it's perceived as persecution, but simple disrespect.
[–]KarmakazeNZ 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
What I object to is just the argument that degree of effect or past history in any way define what persecution is.
The definition of persecution depends on the severity of the "offence". Being laughed at is not persecution unless you think every comedian is persecuting someone by telling jokes about them.
Crushing testicles? Now that is persecution.
My issue was with the logic
How else would you define persecution apart from the kinds of violent acts involved?
Exactly. That's what the OP quote was talking about.
but the argument that worse persecutions existed in the past, so minor ones aren't actually persecution is fallacious.
That wasn't the argument. The argument is that laughing at someone's beliefs is not persecution. Crushing their testicles and cutting off their breasts to force them to change their beliefs is persecution.
[–]Jokrmein 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Persecution sits on a spectrum, from harassment and bullying to being tortured. And no one has put your nuts in a vice either, i'm willing to bet. So let's not play games.
Persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another group. The most common forms are religious persecution, ethnic persecution, and political persecution, though there is naturally some overlap between these terms. The inflicting of suffering, harassment, isolation, imprisonment, fear, or pain are all factors that may establish persecution. Even so, not all suffering will necessarily establish persecution. The suffering experienced by the victim must be sufficiently severe. The threshold level of severity has been a source of much debate.
An atheist laughing at a moron is not persecution.
[–]Jokrmein 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
From MW: "Persecution: the act or practice of persecuting especially those who differ in origin, religion, or social outlook"
So being a dick to someone just because they believe in something is persecution. The end, case closed.
So being a dick to someone just because they believe in something is persecution.
Not at all.
per·se·cut·ed per·se·cut·ing
Definition of PERSECUTE
transitive verb
1: to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
2: to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) : pester
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/persecute
You may notice that the second definition includes Christians that won't shut up about me going to hell. So if that's the definition you want to use...
Learn to use a dictionary.
to injure, grieve, OR afflict or to cause suffer of belief, that's exactly what's going on in the op. You do understand or means either, right? lrn2rd before fighting with the dictionary.
You think being laughed at meets those definitions?
Time to imprison the comedians then.
You're a fucking moron, you really are. You must be a Christian.
Bahahahaha!
My head, you make it hurt.
To think, you were the fastest sperm.
It's not my problem if you can't handle logic without getting a headache.
to injure, grieve, OR afflict or to cause suffer of belief, that's exactly what's going on in the op.
Yes, that was the persecution of atheists the OP talked about. In the last line of the quote the author talked about Christians complaining that being laughed at is persecution, which is clearly false.
being ridiculed is persecution.
No, it isn't. Comedians do it all the time. The internet is full of it.
Are we all being persecuted by everyone?
[–]maycausedrowsiness 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
No, that's not quite it. It's more along the lines of she's calling out Christian privilege.
[–]billyup -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
I find that quite fair.
[–]plastic_apollo 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
When you participate in a religion, you stand in solidarity with its practices, beliefs, and traditions. You become part of the narrative of that religion's history; you cannot excuse yourself, as a worshiper in the present, from the reality of that religion's past.
[–]oldmoneey 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
Sins of the father ftw? Goddamn it is that kind of reasoning that is dangerous for this world, you are no better than the discriminating christian. Solidarity my ass. Are you seriously saying that to believe in the Christian God that one is to condone every goddamn naughty deed ever committed by a Christian or a Christian institution? Do you realize how immensely stupid that is? Atheists, Christians, really no difference to me. I know an idiot when I see one and it seems that nothing is safe from stupidity and hypocrisy no matter how logical it is at it's core.
[–]hat678 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Its not the sins of the father, it is the sins of christianity. THis horrible cult is still committing crimes against humanity to this day.
[–]inashadow -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
Let's ignore all the horrible deeds in the past...the present ongoing disgusting nature of religion should be enough to condemn it.
[–]oldmoneey 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Let's ignore all the great deeds in the past. Screw Mother Teresa, right?
[–]Bugsysservant 12 points13 points14 points 8 months ago
Why is that? Can I be an American and not endorse the genocidal practices of Andrew Jackson? Can I be German and not support the eradication of the Jewish people? People are guilty of the wrongs they commit, not those of unrelated people who shared a few beliefs.
Consider: Darwinian natural selection has been used as a reason for various eugenics programs throughout history. Does that mean that anyone who believes in evolution by natural selection is guilty of the forced sterilizations of those regarded as unfit for society?
[–]JonathanBC 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
You can choose your religion. You can't choose your nationality.
[–]Bugsysservant 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
There may be some barriers, but in most of the world you can leave a country. And you can always renounce your citizenship (though that also leads to quite a few problems). However, if remaining a citizen necessarily means supporting all of the choices your country has made then it doesn't matter if it difficult, the ethical thing would be to change that.
But the bigger point here is that beliefs don't cause guilt, actions do. The argument that people are responsible for the crimes of others who share their beliefs has been the cause of immense discrimination and hate crimes against Muslims post-9/11. Do you really believe that to be justified?
[–]notrace 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
You can't possibly say that all people who are guided by the same book all practice exactly the same beliefs as each other. Even if you were able to choose your nationality, not everyone would (or should, logically, be expected to) operate under the same belief system.
[–]SubtleMockery 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Um... pardon? You can totally choose your nationality. I think you meant race. Just say race when you mean race.
You can, if you are an adult, choose the nation in which you reside. If I moved to Sweden, I'd still be "the American." I should have said you can't choose where you're born.
[–]OrganizedChaos 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Slavery and genocidal practices have been removed/made illegal from American law where as they are still instructed in many religions (ie. the bible, qur'an, torah), that's why.
The Bible, the Koran and the Torah are not religions, they are major books in religions. So I can be a Christian (or Jew, or Muslim, &c.), and still believe that slavery and genocide is wrong. Believing that the ten commandments are good and that Jesus died for my sins in no way means that I'm standing in solidarity with the Spanish inquisition, or Cotton Mather. That's absurd.
You can't magically divorce christianity from it's religious texts. If someone voluntarily aligns themself with the christian cult, they are responsible for the cult's actions by default.
You can't divorce Christianity from its texts, but that doesn't imply that Christians need to literally believe and follow every word.
But, putting that aside, after 9/11 a great many Muslims faced discrimination in the United States because of the actions of other Muslims. By your logic, any Muslim who didn't immediately convert after 9/11 was voluntarily aligning themselves with Islam, and were therefore responsible for the actions of all Muslims. Thus this discrimination was fully justified. I'm not sure if you're actually okay with that, but that's a position that I cannot accept. People are guilty of their actions, not those of others who share their beliefs.
So you're making up you're own religion then?
[–]CokeHeadRob 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
I think you can join a religion and not agree with the past. There's nothing you can do about that, so why let it stop you from joining?
[–]Bra1nDamage 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
So all white Americans are responsible for the enslavement and dehumanization of black Americans before the Civil War? All Germans are responsible for the atrocities committed during WWII? I could go on and on. What happened to atheists in the past is horrible, but as someone who grew up Catholic, I will not apologize, just as I will not apologize to a black American for what previous members of my race did to them. This is nothing more than a gross over-generalization of religion, something r/atheism seems to do all too often.
[–]Zodiwacts123 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Well to be fair you don't have a choice about your race, but you have a choice about your religion
[–]squigs 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
How about nationality though? Should we dissolve the US government who were responsible for a lot of that stuff. We should also dissolve Germany as a nation and parcel it up and distribute it to its neighbours. Should anyone who is a member of any of those nations leave and renounce their nationality?
AIn't that almost exactly what happened to Germany post WWII?
[–]squigs 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Yes, but that was over things that they had done within the last few years, and very much within living memory.
[–]baconOclock 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago*
If you are indoctrinated from birth chances are you are still going to be religious. The type of education we receive plays are very important role. We mostly learn to succeed at specific tasks in school while rationality, general problem solving skills, critical thinking and learning to detect bullshit are mostly undermined.
[–]hat678 -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
It is unfair to say that All Germans are responsible for the atrocities committed during WWII.
But if someone proudly proclaims himself to be a "nazi", does he bear any responsibility for the attrocities?
THe point is that people are openly boasting of belonging to the christian cult, but they want no responsibility for the horrors committed by the cult.
Actually I can, I have no control over what misguided people have done in the past in the name of god, no more then I can take credit for parting the red sea.
[–]WhenSnowDies 7 points8 points9 points 8 months ago
Madalyn O'Hair was murdered by a fellow at American Atheists:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madalyn_Murray_O%27Hair#Investigation_and_arrests
Free people like to complain about how persecuted their predecessors were, often to persecute others locally. Ironically Ms. O'Hair didn't find death at the hand of any inquisition or demagogue or god, but by one of her fellows at American Atheists over money.
It is ironic how some groups like to focus on other groups as "the problem", be it if they hate a certain race or religion or nation, when "the problem" is liable to be something a little less fantastic, like greed or hatred; the very problems which Ms. O'Hair didn't seem to dedicate much time to, but would ultimately forfeit her life to.
[–]dripless_cactus 11 points12 points13 points 8 months ago
True that she died at the hands of someone who worked for her own organization (a batshit insane person), but law enforcement, the community and the news media didn't really give a damn either-- that I believe to be due to prejudice against the fact that she was a vocal atheist. As I understand it, the O'Hairs were captive for a month before they were murdered. Justice was not done until 8 years later. It's pathetic.
I won't deny that there are other factor's at play-- Madalyn O'Hair was not exactly a well liked person nor did she try to be, and perhaps there was reason to believe that the three of them had fled the country. Still I have trouble believing that nothing of this circumstance had something to do with religious persecution.
[–]WhenSnowDies 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
True, in fact she was not just unliked, but a deplorable person.
From Wikipedia:
"In 1980, William Murray [O'Hair's son] was baptized at a Baptist church in Dallas, where he took up work as a preacher. This led to a permanent estrangement between mother and son. As she put it, 'One could call this a postnatal abortion on the part of a mother, I guess; I repudiate him entirely and completely for now and all times...he is beyond human forgiveness.'"
Also I'm not sure about law enforcement not working hard to find her. I know that they were accused as such and countered such arguments. As for the media, I don't think that they're obligated to care particularly, because their interest is ratings and they are private organizations. Most kidnappings are under reported by the media anyway.
Further justice is oft not done for many years in many cases without bias. I think that Ms. O'Hair made enough enemies to make indifference to her death plausible, but it's not provable that others were as hateful or dismissive of her as she was to those who disagreed with her (see: her own son).
In other words I don't think that she was treated unfairly when it came to the value of her life, excepting by one of her own from American Atheists over greed. I think the victimization of her by the society at large rather than the criminal himself is a legend spread to emphasize her message of atheistic victimhood, when in reality she religiously persecuted her own flesh and blood openly.
The conclusion: I don't think that Ms. Madalyn O'Hair is a good source of quotation for any manner of wisdom, inspiration, or admiration by any thinking or feeling ethical human being.
[–]dripless_cactus 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago*
It's no secret that Madalyn and her son didn't get along, and part of the reason may be because he converted to Baptism Christianity (or maybe the fact that he was an alcoholic and a loser with serious resentment issues).
But just because she may not have been a good mother and her style was more brash than you may prefer, it doesn't mean she wasn't a brilliant person with valid ideas worthy of our admiration.
[–]hamjim 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Most kidnappings are under reported by the media anyway.
Um, have you seen CNN in the past 15 years? Granted, Ms. O'Hair wasn't a pretty blonde 20-year-old, and as such, outside CNN's range, but one can hardly claim "the media" ignore kidnappings.
[–]WhenSnowDies 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
Yes they're very good at covering pretty blonde 20-year-old kidnappings but, otherwise, forget about it.
Do you know how many persons go missing in the US every day? Statistically do you know how few are noticed by the media?
[–]hat678 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
This quote stands on it's own, regardless of you opinion of O'Hair.
[–]WhenSnowDies -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
Even dictators have catchy quotes, but you wont see me quoting them.
[–]justwentfullderp 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
ROW ROW, FIGHT THE POWAH
[–]veiwtifuljoe 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
"Words." ಠ_ಠ
[–]chonnes 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
If you view/read the posted image and then immediately return to your main Reddit page all the links look purple as if they've already been clicked.
It must be some sort of atheist magic!
[–]lawlessmage 7 points8 points9 points 8 months ago
I'm not out to defend anyone here but why do people think that just because something happened in the past that it somehow affects them personally in the present?
Just seems to be living in the past to me when really we need to think about the future. So much better quotes you could use than this.
[–]zoozoo458 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
"those who can't remember the past are doomed to repeat it"
-George Santayana
[–]manueslapera 11 points12 points13 points 8 months ago
"Awesome guitar riff" -Carlos Santana
"hohoho" -Claus, Santa
[–]lawlessmage 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Remembering is completely different than using it as leverage.
[–]hollywoodbob 11 points12 points13 points 8 months ago
You're right, we should forget about slavery and the holocaust while we're at it.
this is not entirely sarcasm
[–]SubtleMockery 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
We remember them to prevent them from happening again, not punish the descendants of those responsible.
We shouldn't forget, but we shouldn't throw at germans when we have a disagreement.
[–]fuLc 9 points10 points11 points 8 months ago
Learn from history, or you will repeat it. Living in the past is not the same as remembering the past.
Christians want to cry about persecution when they've been on the other side of it for centuries. Reminding people of this IS thinking about the future.
I just wish I knew the full context of that statement.
[–]lawlessmage 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Should we remind germans constantly about hitler and ww2? and hold them accountable for that too? Japan and pearl harbor? Wasn't it not long ago that people were saying "that disaster was for pearl harbor" Holding transgression against people for things done in the past before anyone was born is not remembering the past.
[–]fuLc 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Do the Germans and Japanese consistently cry about being persecuted? I don't think so. Nice try, but I think you have a short in that connection.
Some do. I just don't paint all Christians with a broad brush. I have some very good friends that are Christian and I at least respect them. It's a matter of context.
That's why I'd like to know what the whole conversation was. This type of reply is warranted occasionally. Once someone starts the holier than thou attitude .. gloves come off.
Most of my family are hardcore christians. I respect them. We don't talk religion anymore, because it always ends with big circle of fuck and them getting red in the face.
Yup It's about context. I'm just afraid that people will take this kind of quote and run around using it in ill manner. Such as learning someone is christian and laughing at them for sake of making fun of them. Then when the religious one gets upset the atheist will throw this at them. That's just not cool.
Now if the christian was acting like a douche and telling the atheist how wretched he is, then the atheist retaliating by scoffing at him I would find it appropriately used.
But if anyone acted in the first manner towards my religious father, whom I hold very dear and respect, I would punch him in them mouth. Because my father is not one of those holier than thou types.
But still I believe we can't go around holding cultures, races, denominations, and religious backgrounds accountable for the transgressions that people made long in the past. I think Atheist have enough fire power for what religious people are doing in THIS day and age to need to go back to something that happened several generations ago.
Totally agree. My grandparents are what every christian should be imo. I've NEVER heard them say a bad thing about anyone. I've debated with them many times for hours and hours. They're the only christians I've never been able to stump.
I agree people shouldn't go from 0 - militant atheist in 5 seconds. Sadly I would say about 90% or more of the in depth discussions I've had with christians end with them basically plugging they're ears acting as if I've physically abused them or something. Granted it doesn't usually start off well when it's known I'm an atheist considering I live in the south.
In my mind there's a few different kinds of christians. The ones that go to church for social status and don't really care much about it all. Then there's the fanatics. That they must give Jesus as the answer to everything and talk down to anyone that thinks otherwise. Then there's the role models of the collective. They try to live as Jesus would. They're always happy to talk with or help anyone no matter what their beliefs are. Even though I consider them delusional. I still hold respect for the latter.
[–]KarmakazeNZ -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
At last someone who seems to have actually read the whole quote and understood it. Upvoted.
Why do you think the quote said anything like that?
Read the last sentence. What does it say? Does it refer to people like you not calling being laughed at "persecution"? Why yes, yes it does. Does it say anything at all about you or anyone else alive today being responsible? Why no, no it doesn't.
Why am I not surprised at the lack of reading comprehension and attention span amongst the "believers" here?
Who said I was a believer? I really don't give a damn one way or another. I'm just going to live my life the way I see fit and what ever happens happens. I don't have time to contemplate that shit. I just do my best to be a good person and leave it at that.
I'm just saying you shouldn't use actions that the person never committed as a basis for your argument. Did that christian he is talking about ever beat, kill, torture him or anyone in this day and age? No he's talking about douches centuries ago that has nothing to do with the person in front of him. Also you know what. It wasn't just christians or anyone. It was people. Human beings that did fucked up shit and they are gonna do it whether they have a god or not. Human beings sometimes just want to watch the world burn. We just have more crazy religious nuts than crazy nonreligious nuts. And when it comes to the time when there are no religious people were still gonna have people that want to do fucked up shit and will find a way to justify it one way or another.
Also how is laughing at the them going to bring them to a better understanding of the world? At that point your just being a dick and no one wants to be around or listen to that type of person. It's about being a bigger person.
Instead of being douche bags to religious people be nice to them and they will be more inclined to listen and try to see your way. Or you can just be a douche too and continue the world down shit.
I'm just saying you shouldn't use actions that the person never committed as a basis for your argument.
Why not? Am I not allowed to use the actions of the Nazis as a basis for my argument that Fascism is a bad political system? No one is accusing the current crop of Christians of doing those things. They are simply saying that being laughed at is not being "persecuted" by showing what real persecution looks like.
Also how is laughing at the them going to bring them to a better understanding of the world?
Why is it my responsibility to save them from their own stupidity? Free will, motherfucker; Use it. Don't expect me to help you. I'm too busy laughing at you for getting yourself in that predicament in the first place.
At that point your just being a dick and no one wants to be around or listen to that type of person.
Good. The kind of people that get insulted by me laughing at Christians are the kind of people I don't want around me trying to convert me into one.
I'm not on a crusade to save you from your own stupid choices. I'm just having fun at your expense, like pretty much all comedians do to someone.
[–]lawlessmage -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
So your an asshole? Ok I get it. Well, have fun with that while alienating people.
[–]manueslapera 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Im from Spain, and Im being yelled by some people from Mexico for what my Grandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrandgrandfather did.
[–]metalmusicatheism -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
When I see this quote, I always think "this is no different than black people blaming white people for the persecution that happened 50+ years ago." Then I remember it is the Christians that complain about persecution first.
[–]thatdeductivefellow 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Excuse me, uh, sir? Sir...? Hey, sir, just so you know...uh...that wasn't me. I didn't do any of that. I'm a Christian and I...I had nothing to do with anything you just mentioned...
...Sir...?
[–]bgates87 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
And none of us ate a magical fruit in the garden of Eden.
[–]KarmakazeNZ 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
And laughing at you for believing we did, is NOT PERSECUTION as the quote in the OP is saying.
[–]thatdeductivefellow 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I don't believe I ever claimed you did?
[–]bgates87 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago*
Yet you believe every human who has ever existed was born into sin and deserves to be tortured forever because someone else did eat a magical fruit from the garden of Eden? Or do you not believe sin is hereditary? And if not, what did Christ die for?
Perfect.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
No, you just subscribe to a belief system that encourages that sort of behaviour. It's in your rulebook.
Nooooope, pretty sure my belief system does not encourage any of these things. Nice try, putting words in my mouth, though.
I'm pretty sure the belief system that I was taught at Catholic school does encourage those things. Sure, they skipped over the bad parts at school. But I actually read the rest of it, which is why I did not leave school as a Catholic.
You believe everything they taught you in Catholic school? o_O
I believe what they said was in the Bible was true, yes, as I have also read the Bible.
And you believe that the contents of the Bible are exactly as your Catholic school taught them to be, even having read it for yourself?
No, because my Catholic School tried to teach me that The Bible is completely true.
haha, Well then I suppose your definition of true would determine how you felt about that, man.
[–]CRSPHC 7 points8 points9 points 8 months ago
Cool message, but white font on a bright red background in one thin, long paragraph isn't the best way to spread it
[–]pineappleespresso[S] 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
yeah, i would have definitely formatted it differently. i just found this on a friend's facebook and managed to link it from my phone. my eyessss
[–]OccamsAxe 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
Reverse redditor: takes something off facebook and puts it on reddit.
[–]furries 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Fellow atheists, please don't do this. We mustn't put ourselves in a position where we try to make others feel they owe us something. Our humility persuades people to open their minds, not this childish behavior.
[–]KarmakazeNZ -2 points-1 points0 points 8 months ago
WTF are you talking about? Recounting the history of the persecution of atheists as a counterpoint to theist claims of persecution when we laugh at them, is childish?
[–]furries 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Yes. We shouldn't be in the business of outdoing one another. We're trying to open minds, not turn them away.
It's not "outdoing" it's defining "persecution".
Persecution does not equal being laughed at, as the last sentence of the quote implies.
Yes, when you act like your eyes are being gouged.
No one is acting like their eyes are being gouged except the Christians that claim atheists are persecuting them because they laugh at them. As the quote explains.
The original post implies that modern Christians are currently doing this to atheists, or that modern Christians are responsible for actions of people centuries ago. This is not simply a recounting of history, rather an attempt to show that modern Christians cannot claim persecution based on the actions of historical figures, as though modern Christians and atheists carry the flag of their predecessors. Persecution is persecution.
The original post implies that modern Christians are currently doing this to atheists, or that modern Christians are responsible for actions of people centuries ago.
No, it doesn't. Not unless you never read the last line.
It simply defines "persecution" for the people that call being laughed at "persecution".
Persecution is persecution.
True, but as the last line actually implies, laughing isn't.
You totally missed the point. The image was basically saying to all the religious people complaining about being persecuted, "You don't know shit about persecution in america."
No, I got that. It's my opinion that we shouldn't participate in this one-upsmanship. Humility and logic are our best weapons. The quote itself is fine because it's educational. But I don't think we should be using it as ammunition in religious debates.
[–]billyup 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
You are correct. I wonder though, what would be a reasonable response to hearing a die hard fundi say that "christians are the most persecuted people in the world?" Wouldn't it be something along the lines of whats in the image? Maybe not being as long winded as the image but, hitting on the same points. comparing the current struggle with the old struggle.
[–]furries 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I had a few days to think about, and I agree that it is appropriate to use this in response to someone talking about how persecuted the christian were. I guess my main beef is that it does nothing in the "Does God exist?" debate.
But then again, maybe nobody was arguing it did. :)
I thank you for giving it more thought than I ever did, lol. There are many many many ways in which religious debates happen. Most of the arguments the religious have are ignorantly based on what they are told, not what they learn for themselves. It is definitely tough deciding what is an appropriate response to ignorance. I say go with what feels go to you, I like being a dick. You on the other hand might try the more diplomatic approach. To each their own. Now to take my morning poop.
[–]Wanhope 7 points8 points9 points 8 months ago
I downvoted you, because you didn't even TRY to make this submission anything other than text in image form to whore karma.
At least put a stupid picture that makes it desktop worthy.
[–]sorenk99 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Given that those were the punishments of the day, why not just pretend to be faithful? Yes, I know its cowardly, but damn, I do not want my scrotum crushed.
[–]billyup 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Given the punishment of the day, why not just pretend to be a nazi? Yes I know it's cowardly, but damn, I don't want to be sent to the ovens.
Now do you see how ridiculous you sound?
[–]sorenk99 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
That's a false analogy (and an offensive one, at that). Nazis didn't send people to the ovens for not being Nazis. They wouldn't have allowed Jews, etc., to join the Nazi party even if they wanted.
No, I think it's perfect.
[–]inashadow 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Yet many pretended.
Which is sad, no?
[–]Haiwani 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Great Quote, Unthoughtful Image. Sorry but that's a down.
P.S. Up for Madalyn though
[–]acridict 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Repost?
[–]philge 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
We need to see more Madalyn Murray O'Hair on here. She is the founder of American Atheists, and the reason why there is no longer group prayer in US schools. She was widely regarded as the most hated woman in America. Here's a great clip of her:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9LS5xYq8zI And if you're interested, a documentary:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8o8I8kLYSA
[–]Self_Hating_Liberal 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Oh cool! I'm an atheist! That means I'm a persecuted minority! Bye bye white guilt! I think I'll join the Black Panthers.
[–]periculum_in_mora 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
You can't hold present day people responsible for the crimes of the past.
[–]DJMaddMax212 11 points12 points13 points 8 months ago
And today you condemn homosexuals, bomb abortion clinics, push prayer in public schools, knock on my doors to tell me about your made up star child... anyone else would like to add to this?
[–]SethBling 11 points12 points13 points 8 months ago
Then say that, don't talk about centuries old crimes. I'm sure there are some perfectly nice Germans out there, that wouldn't ever think of enslaving Jews.
[–]micrometer9 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago*
A vast majority of Germans from 1930 - 1945 would never think of enslaving Jews, as a matter of fact. Pretty much feared into the whole idea.
[–]SethBling 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
But on the other hand I'm sure a vast majority of Spanish in the 16th and 17th centuries vigorously yearned to torture and kill atheists with their bare hands. /s
[–]Malicali 9 points10 points11 points 8 months ago
This quote is a general response to: "What did we (christians/religion) ever do to you (atheists)?"
Take note in one word there; ever, and how it's used in that question. That should clear things up for you. This quote isn't a statement, it's an answer.
[–]ion_ion 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
Ok, so it's like this: "You theist have been big dicks to us for centuries, now are are going to be big dicks to you!"?
[–]Malicali 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
That's what a theist would like others to think. In reality, atheists aren't as mean to theists as the theist makes it out to be.
For example: If a theist asks me to pray for somebody, and I instead offer my hope for that person's well being or recovery, a theist calls this offensive and "being a dick", when in reality it's simply being neutrally respectful.
And even if the example is of an atheist mocking a theist based on their beliefs, it's not like a typical theists response to atheism is any less disrespectful anyways, therefore having the "what did we ever do to you?" response, holds absolutely zero weight for the typical and well educated atheist. (and note; this is also completely removing any actual personal ill-intentions that a theist may have once committed on an atheist today).
[–]ion_ion -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
Well, I am a theist and I have no problem with atheists, so long as they keep their beliefs to themselves. I also keep my beliefs to myself, I don't go preach them around. Of course, I like to debate if that other person wants to, but I don't go around saying: "You are going to burn to hell if you don't accept Lord Jesus as your Saviour!"
As for atheists being dicks, I mean stuff like Dawkins calling theists all kind of nasty things (irrational, superstitious, stupid, etc.) And I mean the /r/atheism people who don't have anything better to do than post 'funny' images about theists. Do you see stuff like that on religious Internet communities? I mean, only posting shit about other religions?
[–]Malicali 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
Are you asking if the same sort of "disrespectful" content and popular response present from the atheist side is also there on the theist side?
Of course not, and of course it isn't the same, it's two totally different views, therefore the disrespectful content and responses are found in totally different ways.
If you are unaware of the hugely anti-atheist presence around the world and the typical response of deserved violence that is very regularly conveyed, then I would say to perhaps get out more and stop sheltering your beliefs general viewpoint regarding atheism. I'm normally not noticeably outspoken regarding theistic (non)belief unless provoked, but it doesn't mean I'm ignorant of those who are like Dawkins, but it also doesn't mean I don't share in his feelings on the matters he speaks of.
What is somewhat humorous that I will point out, is that if a theist attempts to call me or other atheists stupid, irrational, or virtually anything that would otherwise degrade my viewpoint, rarely will an educated atheist find this in any way anything other than something to laugh about, whereas more often than not the theist will find it offensive, and furthermore, the theist that attempts to call an athiest stupid or what have you, they will even find it offensive when the atheist laughs over the theist attempting to insult them in the first place. This is not rational.
[–]ion_ion 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I am sure there are parts of the world where atheists are persecuted and ostracized. But I did not notice that happening in the US or Europe (in the last, say, 100 years). Furthermore, this "but they killed us for 1500 years" thing only happened in some countries, and it usually happened for political reasons. I don't really think the church of England, Spain, etc. was Christian, they were just in there for the power. They showed virtually none of the Christian values.
And there were many Christians persecuted (imprisoned, their shit confiscated, even killed) by atheists in Eastern Europe for most of the 20th century (starting in 1920 and ending at the end of the 80s). So does that mean that those Christians should start posting images of fake Facebook conversations where atheists say stupid things?
Alright you are now completely and frustratingly missing my point. So I am going to keep this one short and be done as to not get into a long drawn out and unnecessary conversation where you don't really get what I'm saying.
The last 100 years? As I said, get out more, the only reason a lot of theists don't take violent action against atheists in America is because it's illegal. Whereas the only reason a lot of atheists don't take violent action against theists is because it isn't the right thing to do.
[–]ion_ion -2 points-1 points0 points 8 months ago
Ok, so let's talk about America of the 20th century then. I think we both agree that the majority of people are/were theists, yes? And since the US is a variation of democracy, it means that it was mostly the theists that passed the laws that protect the atheists, no? But it is not all about laws here. As you are probably aware, during the 20th century a lot of blacks were killed, despite for the fact that there were laws against it. Also, the Japanese people were sent to camps during WW2. Muslims were and still are targets for discrimination after 9/11. What about atheists then? When was the last time atheists were murdered or persecuted in mass, during the 20th century in the US?
My point is, the US society of the last 100 years was very kind to atheists, more kind than it was with blacks, Japanese and Muslims (groups that are not atheist).
[–]burgerboy426 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
There have been students in the past few years that have either: been bullied into suicide, shot in the head, beaten, ostracized, harassed, or been given lower treatment by teachers. There are children every single day that "come out" to their parents as atheists and get banned from their home before the age of 18. There are Muslims that have come out atheist and been killed or run out of town.
Don't tell me you don't see it. It's right in front of you.
[–]metalmusicatheism 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Irrational and superstitious is the definition of religion.
In your world murdering someone and laughing at them is simply 'being a dick'?
Yes, this is what I am saying. Is it not true? If you steal 1 apple every day, you are a thief. If you are stealing 50 billion dollars, you are still a thief. I am not saying that those things are as bad, but they are both examples of being a dick.
[–]KarmakazeNZ -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago*
No, it is more like "laughing does not equal ball crushing, therefore laughing does not equal persecution".
It's right there in the last line of the quote.
[–]ion_ion 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I will guess that the quote refers mostly to the inquisition crap, right? Well, the inquisition people were pretty 'equal opportunity employers', and they tortured a lot of religious folks as well, not only atheists. And just because the Inquisition claimed to do God's work that doesn't mean jack shit, because what they did was in total contradiction with the teachings of Jesus and the New Testament. If I were to start the "Atheist church of Darwin and Dawkins" and then randomly kill people, claiming that I am helping with evolution, would it be fair to blame atheists, Darwin and Dawkins for my deeds?
If I were to start the "Atheist church of Darwin and Dawkins" and then randomly kill people, claiming that I am helping with evolution, would it be fair to blame atheists, Darwin and Dawkins for my deeds?
No but then you'd actually be persecuting them rather than just laughing at them, which is the point of the quote. Laughing at someone's beliefs is not persecution. Mocking them is not persecution.
Throughout history, almost any group of people, religious, ethnic, racial, etc. has done some shit to another group. In Europe for example, almost any country fought with any other country in WW1 and WW2. France and UK had nasty wars for hundreds of years. Some of the people that fought in WW2 are still alive, and most of them pretty much got over it. So why is it OK for the atheist to to constantly mock people for their beliefs, hundreds of years later?
So why is it OK for the atheist to to constantly mock people for their beliefs, hundreds of years later?
Why is it OK for comedians to tell fat jokes?
There is your answer.
It depends on the situation and your definition of OK. A comedian who tells fat jokes in clubs is one thing. But someone who constantly mocks their fat coworkers or classmates is a different thing, right?
What atheist constantly mocks their co-workers etc? None. In fact I'm pretty sure that would constitute harassment.
Care to provide any evidence of it?
No, that last line makes it perfectly clear what this is in response to. It is a response to the modern Christian's claim that they are being persecuted by atheists. You know "the war on Christmas" and all that crap.
[–]Sizzleby 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Uh... then how do feel about reparation payments to the black community, designated Indian living land, and war reparations?
If you can prove that specific assets were stolen, then reparations are a good idea. THis is currently the case with nazi gold.
[–]micrometer9 -2 points-1 points0 points 8 months ago
I'd love a paycheque or a tax break for being an atheist! Petition?
[–]YosserHughes 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
How does this have anything to do with holding present day people responsible for the crimes of the past?
All it's doing is pointing out to present day religious people what their forebears did in the name of their religion, so when they complain and bleat about how awful atheists are to them we can tell them to shut the fuck up.
[–]klystron 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
They would do it again in a heartbeat, if they were allowed to.
[–]YosserHughes 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
You're absolutely correct, just look to the parts of the world where the law doesn't hold them accountable, they're still burning people alive.
[–]xMcNerdx 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I actually saw a link about two weeks ago to a video of Africans burning each other alive over religion. I really wish I didn't click it.
[–]durfsmurf 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I'm an atheist but my ancestors were very religious folk. So I'd have to point out what my forebears did in the name of their religion.
Second comment that I've seen that shows you actually read the whole thing and understood it. Upvoted.
[–]dripless_cactus 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
The O'Hairs faced enough direct personal discrimination and hate crimes to rightfully complain. I don't recall specifics but I'm pretty sure they had a pet or two killed, her kids were harassed at school, they received piles of hate mail and death threats, etc
And oh yeah, they were murdered (which may or may not have been religiously motivated, but, probably because they were atheists, it was just assumed that they had stolen money and left the country. In fact some insane asshole had kidnapped and coerced them to withdraw large amounts of money from American Atheists, and then killed them)
[–]comatose811 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madalyn_Murray_O'Hair#Investigation_and_arrests
The murderer worked at American Athiests and seemed to only want money. There doesn't look like there's anything religiously charged about this case.
Also, a lot of the speculation about stealing the money came from fake evidence given by the murderer.
[–]deejayalemus 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
What about when they continue to benefit from it...
[–]jamesuyt 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Honest question here:
If what you said is true, that present-day people are not accountable for the crimes of their predecessors, then why does God still punish us because of the wrongs of Adam and Eve? Why do women still bear pain during childbirth? I know I certainly didn't eat from any Trees of Wisdom.
Where in the quote do you see that?
I see the last sentence that says "and you have nerve enough to complain to me that I laugh at you" but nothing about you being responsible for those past crimes.
You did read the whole thing, right?
[–]allanpopa 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I heard that a few times. I'm still wondering who the atheists were 1500 years ago though?
[–]mbanana 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Here you go. Of course I'm pretty sure a lot more people were atheists even into the high middle ages, but knew better than to talk about it.
Heck the Roman expression "Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo" (I was not, I was, I am not, I care not) was a common enough sentiment that it was used as an abbreviation on tombstones (NFFNSNC).
I can see precursors to contemporary atheistic thought in Antiquity but I wouldn't be so quick as to view the thoughts and agendas as identical. The Roman expression you are referring to is an Epicurean dictum, it doesn't express a lack of belief in gods or any sorts of deities (most people during this time probably believed in quite a few gods, at least nominally).
The period between the Antiquity and the Early Modern Period simply didn't feature atheism as a prominent intellectual pattern. This is true even at a broader view of non-European cultures. Atheism, I think, took some very interesting mutations of thought and belief which occurred in/by the Protestant Reformation, especially that of the divorcing of God from nature and the emerging critiques of folk-religion and superstition...
[–]Pelycan 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
We've come a long way.
[–]octochan 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
No longer shepherd, no longer man- a transfigured being, a light-surrounded being, that laughed! Never on earth laughed a man as he had laughed!
Thus spoke Zarathustra. After biting off the head of the thick, nauseating, black snake that crawled down his throat, the shepherd walks away transformed. I never applied this quote to overcoming religion before, but after reading this post I can't help but see it. Thank you.
[–][deleted] 8 months ago*
[deleted]
You guys are missing the obvious point the author (I can't read the name on that horrible color scheme) is trying to make.
The point is in the last sentence:
And you have nerve enough to complain to me that I laugh at you.
Athiest here. Can I get some proof of this stuff? I do believe that this happened, but I've not come across any actual proof of this torture, and I didn't want to be a hypocrite by blindly following this, haha.
[–]saffer001 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Atheist*.
Also, I win.
Wow, I legitimately thought that word was spelled 'Athiest'. Thanks for the correction.
Also, what do you win?
[–]theftinprogress 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I tried to explain anti-theism to a friend with a metaphor.
Imagine you had an abusive stepfather. When you were young, he beat you and your siblings black and blue, lied to you, and used your family's money on his own expenses rather than on essential things. Now you're older and on your own, and stepdad is feeble and in a wheelchair. He's old, he says that he loves you and always loved you and wants you to come back to him.
Your siblings tell you that you should come back home and forgive the old man, as he said he was sorry a few times, and after all he wasn't so bad, he did read you stories at night when you were young. Plus, he's too sick and feeble to actually hurt you now, that was all in the past. But you say no, that he abused you when he was strong and powerful and you were weak and had nowhere else to go. He may mean it when he says that he loves you, but that doesn't change what he did, and it doesn't mean that he won't revert to his old ways with your kids if he gets out of the wheelchair again.
Maybe a full apology to everybody that he harmed would signal that he's changed, but he's not willing or able to do that. So no, you don't want to take your kids to meet him, and no, you won't be coming for Christmas. And that's how anti-theists think about religion.
This is the background on my iPod!
[–]slayersaiez 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
This is starting to get into the whole blacks vs whites thing. You weren't around to suffer these horrible acts and you shouldn't complain about them either. Move on, what's done is done.
flame suit
[–]originaluip 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I don't think the people Dr. OHair was laughing at did any of those treacherous things to him. I also don't think it's fair to criticize an individual for the faults of their ancestors, whom they had no control over. This is actually one of my issues with Christianity, as men should not be held accountable for the actions of Adam and Eve; I don't believe we atheists should be employing this argument.
OMG did any of you guys read the WHOLE THING?
This is a response to Chirstians claiming they are being persecuted when we laugh at their idiotic beliefs.
It simply points out that being laughed at is nothing like what happened to atheists for 1500 years. They can start complaining when we crush their testicles.
[–]alibong0 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
None of which happened to you personally. Chill.
This is posted fairly often so I'll summarise the main problems with it.
1500 years ago atheism was practically unheard of. The idea that there wasn't a creator would have been considered ludicrous.
Just about every religious group was being persecuted somewhere.
Atheists don't have clean hands when it comes to persecution either. Mexico's atheist leaders in the early 20th century were pretty hostile towards the religious.
None of the people who are members of any religion were responsible for any oppression over 100 years ago. Hereditary sin is a Judeo-Christian concept. I don't think it's fair for us to apply it unless we also believe in that religion.
1500 years ago atheism was practically unheard of.
The word comes from ancient Greece over 2500 years ago. The lack of belief goes back to the dawn of man.
True. But being laughed at is not persecution. It's that simple.
None of the people who are members of any religion were responsible
No one, not even the quote in the OP said they are.
I don't think it's fair for us to apply it
We aren't. Did you read the whole thing? What does that last sentence mean?
Tell me where in there it says that "you" are responsible for it.
[–]UnforgivenIndividual 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
This is probably one of the best atheist related post I've seen, I think that the person who created this quote needs a big hug.
[–]argobargo -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
TIL that I've lived for 1500 years.
I am pretty sure the quote was referring to the christian cult, and not you personally.
[–]argobargo 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I will stand by my failed attempt at humor. This ship will not sink alone.
[–]AlternateKarmaSource -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
This is bullshit. I'm a non-believer, and none of that shit happened to me. It all happened before I was born. Why would I get to be angry about it, and why would I get to get revenge for it? It's not like I come from a long line of atheists, and past persecution still affects me to this day, like when people of disadvantaged races make this argument. Right now we should all focus on being excellent to eachother.
Did you read the whole thing? Including this part:
This is saying nothing about getting revenge. It is not even blaming current Christians for past persecutions of atheists.
It is showing modern Christians what real persecution looks like.
[–]assman1229 -2 points-1 points0 points 8 months ago
God damn you guys are all so butt hurt.
[–]zoozoo458 -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
[–]twelvefortyAM -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
So past offenses by altogether different people towards people other than yourself justifies present, though lesser offenses against people loosely similar to yourself and someone else?
Right, my people were enslaved by the Romans, I'm going to go yell at Italian people for a while.
No, but when we react to their lesser offences with our lesser offences they act like we're being cunts, and they are being virtuous.
It's nothing more than another symptom of the built-in persecution complex of all major religions.
[–]vandalklown -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
*words
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
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