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Bertrand Russell On The Paradox of Fools And Wise Men (i.imgur.com)
submitted 7 months ago by Tiger337
[–]Mattson 59 points60 points61 points 7 months ago
I have a problem with this quote... and the problem is I can't seem to find where Bertrand Russell actually said it. The closest I could find is a paraphrase.
"Force plays a much larger part in the government of the world than it did before 1914, and what is especially alarming, force tends increasingly to fall into the hands of those who are enemies of civilization. The danger is profound and terrible; it cannot be waved aside with easy optimism. The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt. Even those of the intelligent who believe that they have a nostrum are too individualistic to combine with other intelligent men from whom they differ on minor points. This was not always the case."
I included the full quote to give it some context
here's some karma for the rest of you... I'm working on a template for you to overlay the text: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell
[–]nevercomment 11 points12 points13 points 7 months ago
Yes, that is the proper quote. Redditors regularly type out quotes from memory, get it wrong and therefore basically write their own sentence with a great thinkers name written next to it. I have yet to see a Churchill quote written correctly.
[–]Mattson 11 points12 points13 points 7 months ago
No they don't.
In all fairness this is the 3rd time I've seen this exact quote in the 11 months I've been here.
They copy links directly... they should at least get the quote right.
[–]Enceladus_Salad 4 points5 points6 points 7 months ago
It drives me nuts when comments like this get downvoted. Have some fucking integrity people. If it's not the correct quote than it shouldn't be in here.
I'm glad I read the comments and didn't take this at face value like most of the crap that gets recycled in r/atheism.
[–]aidrocsid 2 points3 points4 points 6 months ago
People on reddit vote emotionally rather than rationally.
[–]sinsebuds 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
correct. this was actually abraham lincoln.
[–]MrHappyMan 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Oh, I just posted that here. I was sure I'd heard it differently. Thank you good Sir.
[–]mrewr 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago*
it's shit like this bertrand. the real paradox lies in the fact that fools often quote intelligent men, who are also fools considering the grand scheme of things. bottom line is that yes, perception is reality but faith and hope is more important (and perhaps more real) than reality itself. after all, our perception of what we KNOW is easily manipulated with a couple of electroshocks to the right parts of the brain. An intelligent being should be able to intuitively realize that this is happening and HAVE FAITH AND BELIEVE that there is a reality beyond the reality that is being projected from our own limited brains. I think this is the real difference between a fool and an intelligent being. long live the paradox as it helps with natural selection.
[–]Mattson -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
That post reeks of Kant and Kant sucks.
[–]live52 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago*
Depends on which kant you're talking about. Some don't reek.
[–]aidrocsid 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
Immanuel Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable.
[–]live52 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
Heidegger was a boozy beggar who could think you under the table
[–]ZeGermanZurmanMerman 1 point2 points3 points 6 months ago
German consequentialists call him Cunt.
[–]SilentExchange 73 points74 points75 points 7 months ago
This is because wise men are wise enough to know that no human is infallible and fools do not know what infallible means.
[–]SorryItsMyFirstDay 22 points23 points24 points 7 months ago*
"This man, on one hand, believes that he knows something, while not knowing anything. On the other hand, I – equally ignorant – do not believe that I know anything."
Edit: attributed to Socrates by Plato
[–]nrs5813 5 points6 points7 points 7 months ago
"Any man who knows a thing knows he knows not a damn damn thing at all"
-K'NAAN
[–]wayndom -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
Source?
[–]SorryItsMyFirstDay 8 points9 points10 points 7 months ago
So-Crates. Sorry, I was born in 1980. I have to say it that way.
Also rephrased as, "All I know is that I know nothing."
[–]PlatonicTroglodyte 4 points5 points6 points 7 months ago
I could be wrong, but I believe it's actually a Plato quote, from the Apology, where Socrates is the character who says it (and very well could have said something quite similar).
[–]SorryItsMyFirstDay 4 points5 points6 points 7 months ago
Clarification: Attributed as a quote of Socrates on his dealings with the Oracle at Delphi.
Mr. Trog, do I remember correctly?
[–]PlatonicTroglodyte 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
If I remember correctly, you remember correctly. But my namesake comes from Plato's Republic, not Apology. From what I recall, Socrates didn't actually go to the Oracle himself, but Chaerephon asked the Oracle and the Oracle responded that no one was wiser than Socrates. What I took from it was that wisdom is knowing what you don't know. I could be wrong though.
[–]SorryItsMyFirstDay 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
I've gone thru Republic a couple times. I don't remember troglodytes. Teach me?
Edit: Googled. The chained-up cave prisoners.
[–]PlatonicTroglodyte 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
Yes, my name is a reference to the allegory of the cave. What I like about it wasn't really Plato's main point, but I like to think of everyone in the world as the prisoners in the cave, who believe they know what the world is really like but actually have no clue. It's also good to help remind me that I too am one of those people, even though it doesn't seem that way.
With you on that one. At least we know that we have the ability to turn around and adjust our eyes to the fire and sun, even if we havent yet.
[–]niner4 11 points12 points13 points 7 months ago
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.” - Charles Darwin
[–]hommesuperbe 4 points5 points6 points 7 months ago
The more you know, the more you don't know.
[–]HenryGifford 10 points11 points12 points 7 months ago
Well, I don't know how accurate that is, but the more you know, the more you know you don't know, that's for sure.
That's actually what i meant to put but i guess i brain farted.
[–]SorryItsMyFirstDay 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
I accidentally my brain
[–]DictionGun 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
In other words, the more we discovery, the more mystery there is: new things bring new questions.
[–]reddit_user13 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Oh, thanks for 'splainin'.....
[–]Ekorn 23 points24 points25 points 7 months ago
This is actually a scientifically proven phenomenon. I can't remember what it's called but it's well known. Damn my memory
[–]sebso 53 points54 points55 points 7 months ago
Dunning-Kruger effect
[–]dodo_bird 9 points10 points11 points 7 months ago
The critical point to note is that there’s a clear positive correlation between actual performance and perceived performance : the people in the top quartile for actual performance think they perform better than the people in the second quartile, who in turn think they perform better than the people in the third quartile, and so on. So the bias is definitively not that incompetent people think they’re better than competent people. Rather, it’s that incompetent people think they’re much better than they actually are. But they typically still don’t think they’re quite as good as people who, you know, actually are good. (It’s important to note that Dunning and Kruger never claimed to show that the unskilled think they’re better than the skilled; that’s just the way the finding is often interpreted by others.)
[–]JimJimWimbleWomble 11 points12 points13 points 7 months ago
on cross-cultural variation
Regardless of how pervasive the phenomenon is, it is clear from Dunning's and others' work that many Americans, at least sometimes and under some conditions, have a tendency to inflate their worth. It is interesting, therefore, to see the phenomenon's mirror opposite in another culture. In research comparing North American and East Asian self-assessments, Heine of the University of British Columbia finds that East Asians tend to underestimate their abilities, with an aim toward improving the self and getting along with others.
[–]Amorougen 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Wow, thanks! I have met so many people with this condition in my life. A questioning uncertainty has it's uses.
[–]scragar 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Never more than a day between postings of that, I'm beginning to feel RES should have a shortcut for it.
[–]patriot_tact 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
I feel like I sway between these two extremes often. This may be the result of when I feel insufficient or sub par at anything I try and get better at it, or because I realize that I'm just not good enough and then I become comfortable with that. Not to make it all personal of course but I'm sure others must feel this way.
[–]RoundSparrow 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
Not to make it all personal of course but I'm sure others must feel this way.
Yin/Yang is about the human brain and it's perception/sensory/interfacing with life.
[–]occamsquattro -8 points-7 points-6 points 7 months ago
I came here to post this.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
The Dunning-Kruger effect (which you're thinking of) is popularly and often mistaken. It's not what this refers to. People who aren't good don't have as good of a grasp on how good they are, but they don't think they are as good as those people who are skilled.
[–]DashingLeech -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
But nothing in the quote says this either. Russell didn't say the confident people thought they were more sure than knowledgeable people, just that they were confident. That could mean they thought they had knowledgeable people on their side.
[–]HaightnAshbury 11 points12 points13 points 7 months ago
Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds - and fanatics.
Cassius J. Keyser
[–]Tbabs 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
I like this. It's concise and easy to remember.
[–][deleted] 31 points32 points33 points 7 months ago
This doesn't have to be in /r/atheism.
[–]RonaldFuckingPaul 42 points43 points44 points 7 months ago
in fact it's ironic that it is
[–]wayndom -8 points-7 points-6 points 7 months ago
Not at all. Though the quote doesn't specifically cite religious belief, it's absolutely relevant to the problems of blind faith vs. rational thought.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
It's also absolutely relevant to the problems of football hooligans and football fans.
[–]CMETRIQ 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
I can debate you on that.
[–]wayndom 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
Why did you provide a link to r/atheism, when anyone reading your post is already in r/atheism?
[–]electricfistula 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
Just typing in /r/atheism will create the link to it.
[–]wayndom 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
I learned something new... (Actually, I wondered if that was what happened, but when I tried it I didn't put the first slash in front of the r, so it didn't work for me.)
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 7 months ago
Because I'm just an awful human being.
[–]StanderdUsername 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
I think there's good inside you, Megadick.
Well, as long as you recognize that fact...
[–]Gfresh404 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Well your name certainly isn't helping your case
[–][deleted] 7 months ago
[deleted]
Is nothing ever enough?
[–]Ske1etonJelly -7 points-6 points-5 points 7 months ago
r/atheism shouldnt fucking exist. i could rant on about how religion is unproductive because it wastes time and encourages people to affirm meaningless beliefs... and so does this place.
[–]nbouscal -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
Religion and atheism can both be arguably said to not be productive, that is absolutely true. Only one of the two can be arguably said to be malevolent or to cause suffering. It would be a wonderful world in which r/atheism did not need to exist. Unfortunately, we do not live in that world.
r/atheism shouldn't need to fucking exist.
FTFY. It needs to exist to resist the oppression of non-believers. Otherwise, there'd be no reason to congregate.
[–]Ske1etonJelly 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
boohooo my retarded cousin posted something about jesus on facebook and i angrily typed six paragraphs at him. im sorry, you thought you were doing something about sacrificing 7 year olds? no one takes this place seriously because it is as circular and reaffirming as a religion. you enjoy feeling superior to believers as they do to you
[–]DashingLeech 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Nice try but you are guilty of a strawman fallacy.
Posting "something about jesus on facebook" isn't what I was referring to. I was referring to:
Active attempts to teach religion in public schools such as the Dover case.
Promotion of religion by the military on its personnel, including harassment, formal punishment, death threats against atheists by religious personnel.
Subversion of legitimate medical science that helps real people based on religious objections, such as stem cell research.
Denial of contraception and failure to fulfill professional duties based on religious beliefs to the harm of citizens.
Exceptions in law that allow parents to horribly murder their children via medical neglect based on religious beliefs.
Religion controlled, ineffective, abstinence-only sex education.
Active efforts to ban gay marriage based on religious beliefs.
Active efforts to ban abortion based on religious beliefs.
Tax exempt status for churches despite direct involvement in politics.
Taxpayers funding faith-based organizations, particularly when they have exemption from discrimination laws based on religious beliefs.
Subversion of First Amendment to include official recognition of religion, including swearing on a Bible as a means of oaths, "In God We Trust" adopted as official U.S. motto and added to money in 1956, and "under God" added to Pledge of Allegiance in 1954.
Re-writing of history to promote the United States as a "Christian nation" favouring Christianity, despite the fact it is secular by design, not founded on Christianity, and the Founding Fathers were a mix of mostly deists and atheists.
Do you really think this is about "something about jesus on facebook"? Of course not. You know that atheists are discriminated heavily in modern U.S. society, and you know that there are many blatant violations of constitutionally mandated secularism. You are simply trying to dismiss the whole thing by portraying it as being about Facebook comments because that serves your purpose.
The belittling of religious beliefs in /r/atheism isn't the goal; it is the mechanism. As religion forces itself into everyone's lives it becomes necessary to fight back. That includes fighting in the courts to maintain secularism, fighting in schools, and fighting in the public sphere. If theists are going to attempt to force their beliefs on others, others will fight back by calling them on their beliefs. That means attacking their arguments, belittling them on circular reasoning and hypocrisy, and pointing out flaws in their thinking. If theists are going to take the fight to the hearts and minds of the public, it becomes necessary for atheists to fight back in that sphere.
As far as being taken seriously, /r/atheism has 366,474 members as of this message and growing rapidly. Non-believers in religions are the most rapidly growing segment of the population, including those that self-identify as atheists, agnostics, deists, and skeptics.
As for the comparison with religions, analogies don't work that way. You are confusing methods of convincing with the principles of topic. Atheism is to religion as not collecting stamps is to hobbies. The reason you don't see aphilatelists (non-stamp collectors) congregating is because they aren't oppressed. As pointed out in the aphilatelist link, if stamp collectors started treating non-stamp collectors the way theists treat atheists (as in my above non-exhaustive list), it'd be a good bet that /r/aphilatelism would be a very popular place as well. If only theists would keep their beliefs as something personal and not public policy, there would be no problems and no reason for atheists to congregate. They'd simply be people without religious beliefs. Atheists are just those people left over when you add up all of the followers of different religions.
Religion is different. They congregate even without oppression or anything to fight against. They congregate as part of their belief system. There is no dogma in atheism. No rituals. Nothing says to congregate. Nothing says to promote atheism. Only fighting back to protect one's rights creates the need to make atheism acceptable.
Your attempts to re-write reality have no place here. You will be called out on the exact fallacies you attempt to use.
[–]Ske1etonJelly 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago*
i (and a lot of people who see r/atheism) see a bunch of people who realized they didn't believe in god when they were 19 instead of 10.
nobody cares about logical fallacies except pedantic assholes and I didn't read your whole post because it was 5 paragraphs too long. there is no argument that religion causes harm (genital mutilation, human sacrifice, jihad its all the same) but circlejerking and cumming on other atheists wont do anything except make you hang your head in shame when you remember it years on
religion is effective because it controls people and you think sniggering and insulting people just like you will attack the root instead of the symptom
edit: and your post is a perfect example of why it doesn't. too loquacious
[–]Gfresh404 -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
It doesn't have to be but this is probably the place where it'll be most appreciated since most atheists value and appreciate logical thinking
[–]nahog99 22 points23 points24 points 7 months ago
Does r/atheism realize that this quote bashes 99% of the posts(comments) I see on here? I can't even recall how many times I've read a comment that basically goes like this: "I got in an argument with him because I'M right and HE is completely wrong, stupid, and ignorant. We should try as hard as we can to convert people to reason since clearly no one else follows it but atheists."
I hate how so many people on here BELIEVE just a strongly in something as a religious zealot. I mean, I have thoughts about religion, but I don't have ANY beliefs. When it comes down to things like the existence of god or the afterlife(not things that we can prove like evolution) the bottom line is NO ONE KNOWS not you, or any other human being on this earth and it is by the definition of the word ignorant to believe that you do.
[–]ChoadFarmer 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
The problem being that reddit tends to be almost entirely made up of college students, with a few pre-college and a few post-. College students aren't as mature as they think they are, plus they tend to have the attitude that they're now part of the educated elite. These two things coming together makes for a lot of arrogance and bravado, and just plain ridiculousness, and I wasn't that much different when I was a college student. I'm an atheist, but I wouldn't call myself an r/atheist.
[–]nbouscal 4 points5 points6 points 7 months ago
I think the only thing that people on r/atheism consistently believe in with anything approaching religious zeal is reason, and with it, the scientific method. Very few people here are zealous about whether any possible conceivable gods exist. There are excellent arguments like theological noncognitivism on that subject, but that type of stuff doesn't honestly get discussed around here that often. Much more common are discussions of a specific deity, and contrary to the opinion of many, conclusive things can in fact be said about a specific deity. Taking the case of Yahweh, it can be conclusively said that Yahweh did not create man whole from dust and then subsequently create woman from man's rib. It can be conclusively said that many of the other stories in the Bible are false. Therefore it can be conclusively said that the Bible is not the infallible word of Yahweh. As the only definition we have of Yahweh is the account of his actions in the Bible, while we cannot necessarily say with 100% certainty that a divine being named Yahweh does not exist, if he did exist he would not be the being talked about in the Bible, and therefore there is no reason to think he exists at all. I do not see how this argument is arrogant in any way, or how it contains any zeal whatsoever.
[–]Peritract 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
I feel I must offer a correction; though there are many people in /r/atheism who do understand the scientific method and reason, the most zealous shout blindly for what they think reason is.
"A man in a labcoat said this, so it is true" is not the same as "this is scientifically demonstrable or reasonable".
[–]nahog99 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Here's my opinion, the concept of science and reason governing your life is great. I don't like however, that the atheists on this subreddit(at least the ones I see every day) for the most part consider living by that rule an atheist trait. Far too often the consensus here is that religious people in general do not live by reason just because they believe in something that defies reason. The thing I think that most atheists forget is that religion helps A LOT of people in times where science and reason will not. That's not to say they wont use reason. Say for example a religious person is in danger. They are not going to just sit there and let god protect them, or let themselves die because it must just be their time. They will do something about the situation. Living by science and reason is wonderful but not limited to any kind of group or groups. It is an individual trait that some have and some do not. Being an atheist does not mean you have this trait and being religious does not mean you don't have it.
[–]RayOfNope 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
Right on. I've been trying to determine if people understand the irony and are joking about it or if their overconfidence is simply further proving the quote to be true.
[–]nahog99 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
The latter.
[–]peskygods 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
r/atheism doesn't claim to be all knowing, but holds the scientific method and reason in reverence. As a result things with absolutely no proof (religions, prophecies and the like), and yet people use to live their lives by and control others, get derided. Which is fair enough, all things considered.
There's a lot of people on this subreddit who've been oppressed and looked down upon because of their lack of belief, in a country where atheists are the last group whom you can treat like shit and get away with it.
Get off that high horse of yours.
[–]satereader 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Context here matters. There are things about which intelligent people are, and should be, very confident. Smoking causes cancer. Should intelligent people feel confident about this? YES because smoking causes cancer.
Russel was speaking about world politics (in the original quote). That's an area where certainty should be rare and fleeting, among the wise and prudent. General confidence is not what is being discussed.
[–]Godssheep -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
"I got in an argument with him because I'M right and HE is completely wrong, stupid, and ignorant. We should try as hard as we can to convert people to reason since clearly no one else follows it but atheists."
Really? You did? Show me a single one that has been upvoted.
Not saying that some people aren't convinced around here, but that it's something that plague the subreddit, or that is even said in that manner (or in that spirit)? No, just no.
[–]nickajeglin 4 points5 points6 points 7 months ago
Yeats says: The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.
[–]makattak88 10 points11 points12 points 7 months ago
And that's why they get all the bitches, cuz bitches like confidence, and stupid guys are just that.
[–]roy1990 6 points7 points8 points 7 months ago
holy shit. write a book man!
Back in the Bronze Age (1961), when I was thirteen, deeply doubting Christianity and moving rapidly toward atheism, Bertrand Russell was the ONLY popular author who wrote about atheism (as well as a multitude of other social issues), and was my touchstone, my only assurance that I wasn't alone in my thoughts about life.
To me, he's a giant on the level of Einstein and Newton, except that his greatest stature was in the areas of the social and the philosophical. Dawkins, Hitchens, and the other current atheist champions, all "stand on the shoulders of" Russell, who blazed the path alone, in a time when being an open atheist was almost as dangerous as being an open homosexual.
[–]notsureiftrollorsrs 19 points20 points21 points 7 months ago
I hope you see the irony in this.
[–]alexthelateowl -2 points-1 points0 points 7 months ago
There is really no irony in this.
[–]BuccaneerRex 7 points8 points9 points 7 months ago
The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.
-Excerpt, "The Second Coming", Wm. Butler Yeats.
[–]Kevin_Sorbo 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
Beat me to it. Yeats is the man.
[–]SkySilver 54 points55 points56 points 7 months ago
Well, r/atheism always seems pretty confident about themselves
[–]RoundSparrow 4 points5 points6 points 7 months ago*
New York Professor Joseph Campbell, atheist, who was a teacher for 38 years. he clearly experienced this phenomenon first hand with his many students and his own formal study:
"Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions, for example, are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies.” ― Joseph Campbell, Thou Art That: Transforming Religious Metaphor
A lot of atheists seem to say there is no God, yet won't reason what the meaning and purpose of religion is! if god didn't send it from "heaven", then it came from inside man's own life experience. and why is mythology so popular and powerful throughout history, in all parts of the world? humans wrote it, humans popularized it. Mythology serves a human purpose and need. Similar to language or writing. Half the world is traditionally Hindi or Buddhist, and they spell out to the attentive reader that it is primarily an education system on metaphors of psychological education! But most "followers" don't listen to that part...
[–]CrinkleFarts 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
Half the people in the world
Really?
[–]SkySilver 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
If you're talking about the second "half of the people in the world", yes, really, I've seen many reports that claim more then 75% of the world is theist.
[–]RoundSparrow 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
wow, you do take things as 'facts' as campbell says.
it's a figure of speech. Like "most of the people"
[–]CrinkleFarts 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Two problems with that 1) I don't believe in god or follow a religion and 2) I was taking issue with a ridiculously broad generalization that makes him sound like he's talking out of his ass.
FYI if you aren't saber rattling you use phrases like 'most people' when speaking of a majority, 'half the people' when speaking of an evenly divided issue and 'few' when speaking of a minority. When you are making an argument for or against a controversial topic you generally want to back that shit up with some real numbers and sources.
[–]wayndom 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
Myths were necessary to provide explanations and guidence in the absence of real knowledge (about the origin of the earth, for example). The problem with myths is that they become codified, an inviolable part of the culture which cannot be challenged (the crime of "insulting Islam," for example). And as such, they become impediments to knowledge and understanding.
tl;dr Fuck myths
[–]Smallpaul 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
they spell out to the attentive reader that it is primarily an education system on metaphors of psychological education
[citations needed]
[–]v_soma 20 points21 points22 points 7 months ago
This idea is a little deeper than just how certain /r/atheism is. The essence of /r/atheism is rejecting theism based on theism being irrational/harmful. Theistic beliefs are often professing certainty (or something close to it) regarding the existence of deities, the divine authorship of certain books, the origin of the entire universe and biological world, the mind's relationship to the brain, and consciousness after death etc.
The only thing atheists tend to be very sure about is that the theist is way too sure about things, especially considering where these ideas come from (books and word of mouth, not experimentation).
[–]Munkeyspunk92 20 points21 points22 points 7 months ago
I would really like to believe that the whole of /r/atheism is a collection of open-minded atheists willing to shape their ideology as soon as new evidence comes along. Sadly, I seem to only run into the: "god isn't real, you're an idiot for saying you don't know" kind of atheists. So I kind of agree with skysilver, the atheists that I've run into on here seem every bit as confident that god does not exist as the theists they openly mock; I am not saying this is all of /r/atheism, it is only my brief experiences as of late. The most unfortunate aspect is that these particular atheists are just as impossible to carry on a discussion with as their theistic counterparts; resulting in an overall decrease in their understanding due to their inability to weigh new ideas against their own.
[–]Godssheep 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Come talk to us when "new evidence comes along"
When was the last "new evidence" for God? I'm totally serious here... I would like to examine it.
[–]v_soma 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
I think the majority of atheists are willing to change their beliefs with new evidence (I am one of them), I'm not sure about the whole of /r/atheism though. It's really hard to judge because you never see the entire demographic, and because honestly nobody posts anything saying "I'm just here waiting for evidence for God" even though they may be willing to see evidence. The posts are always about the bad logic and false evidence that theists often give since there is a lot of that.
It really all depends on the definition of God either way. Atheists that you've run into are quite easily disproving the definitions of God that involve Christianity and Islam. There are tons of logical and scientific arguments in that domain. But there's also the generic God or the "higher power" which I don't think most people in /r/atheism would say doesn't exist. And I think they would be open to evidence for it. The problem is that in discussions people use these definitions of God interchangeably so you can't get a good grasp of people's actual positions.
But still, the "higher power" version of God is sort of defeating the point of honest discussion in the first place because it gives credence to something that doesn't have any evidence. There are plenty of other things without evidence that don't get discussed like whether every human brain has 2 minds but we only have access to one. These kinds of questions don't deserve an answer yet because we have no evidence to work with. The same goes for a "higher power" type God. The "higher power" is only discussed because it's a spin-off version of the religious version of God.
[–]Solomaxwell6 4 points5 points6 points 7 months ago
I think the majority of atheists are willing to change their beliefs with new evidence (I am one of them), I'm not sure about the whole of [1] /r/atheism though. It's really hard to judge because you never see the entire demographic,
Seconding your entire post, but this in particular. There are plenty of douchebags on /r/atheism, just like there are plenty of nice guys here. It's no more right to assume that /r/atheism is collectively an evil place as it is to assume all Muslims are terrorists or are Christians hate homosexuality.
[–]v_soma 3 points4 points5 points 7 months ago
Yes, i agree with that. Actually very few Muslims are terrorists. Terrorists are really rare. But a significant fraction of Muslims around the world advocate things like honor killings and/or abandonment of children for leaving Islam etc. Similarly a significant fraction of Christians think homosexuality is wrong, and some small fraction hates homosexuals themselves.
There are surely plenty of douchebags on /r/atheism, but the key difference to note is that it does not derive from a tenet of atheism (because there are none).
I couldn't agree more. I didn't intended to say, that r/atheism is a bunch off these "god isn't real, you're an idiot for saying you don't know" kind of atheists, like Munkeypspunk92* said, but it's just that that kind is more outstanding.
*I meant the expression he used, not that he said r/atheism is full of these.
[–]Munkeyspunk92 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
I would be surprised if they didn't, if it was concrete evidence; although should that evidence come along what would it say about the people that claimed with absolute certainty it was not there to be found in the first place? I guess what I'm saying is that I don't pretend to have any certainties about the existence of any God, because one simply can not know at this point; so anybody that lays a claim to know definitively either way is making a bold claim as to the extent of their knowledge of the universe, and they are holding out on us! spill the beans geniuses I wanna visit mars!
I doubt there is a single atheist here on r/atheism who would not immediately recant their position if they were provided with evidence indicating that they should do so. I should point out, though, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The "certainty" that you run into around here is simply a function of how extraordinary the evidence would have to be to prove theistic claims, specifically those of the major monotheistic religions.
[–]Munkeyspunk92 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
But why set yourself up to be possibly proven wrong? Why not just say there is no way to know short of dying or having christ himself come descending from the sky and leave it at that? if they are so willing to change their views on the subject given proof then they must not be so definitively sure of the nonexistence of god.
[–]Smallpaul 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
But why set yourself up to be possibly proven wrong?
Because...that's how human beings get through the world. Maybe France does not exist. I think it does, but I'm open to the evidence that it does not. It would take a shitload of evidence, but I'm open to it.
Should I sit in agnosticism about the existence of France?
Why not just say there is no way to know short of dying or having christ himself come descending from the sky and leave it at that?
Because absolute knowledge is a useless goal for human beings. We're fallible. Therefore the best we can achieve is overwhelming evidence. The overwhelming evidence is that christ is NOT coming back. We've been waiting 2,000 years and he's still not here. And there is a lot of stronger evidence than that.
Why should I sit around pretending that there is a 50/50 chance that a dead jew is going to come down from the sky?
if they are so willing to change their views on the subject given proof then they must not be so definitively sure of the nonexistence of god.
If they say that they are definitively sure of the non-existence of god, then you call them closed-minded.
If they stay open to the evidence, then you seem to see that as weakening their case.
That's bizarre.
Every human being should stay open to the evidence about everything, always. Always.
No, I see it as weak that people think they can be both at the same time.
"I know for a fact, without a shadow of a doubt, that God doesn't exist; but hey, I could be wrong!"
that's my issue, if you KNOW god doesn't exist, then fine; but to say that those same people are also willing to admit that they may be wrong is just contradictory. I agree that every human should stay open to evidence always, until we attain ultimate knowledge and that will never happen anyway! so why claim to have ultimate knowledge by stating you know for a fact as to the existence of a supreme creator of the universe? I mean you actually agreed with me a bit, I was saying why claim to know for sure? why not stay open to the evidence and say until we see it we can't possibly claim to know either way.
[–]sorenk99 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Point out an example of a person in /r/atheism who claims to know God doesn't exist for sure and claims to have ultimate knowledge, then we'll talk. That would be a gnostic (that's 'gnostic', not 'agnostic') atheist, which is very rare.
That's what I was getting in my original post, I guess it's because I'm new or something but I had terrible luck early on because the gnostic atheists are more vocal than other posters I guess. I know they aren't the majority but they are out there and I think they look as foolish as the people who claim to know for a fact that god exists
[–]peskygods -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
It is bizarre, but that is the mindset of many who call themselves "agnostic" (while obviously not understanding the meaning of atheism and theism). They're actually deists with a degree of theistic bias.
[–]nbouscal 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
When using that reasoning, why believe in anything at all? Why believe the sky is blue? After all, we're just relying on imperfect information from the photosensitive cells in our retinas to make that determination.
I'm willing to change my views on religion given proof, but you have to understand that that does not mean that I'm not definitively sure of the nonexistence of god. I'm as sure that god doesn't exist as I am that I do exist. That is to say, I'm of sure of it as I am of absolutely anything. But, given proof, I will change my views on anything: to not do so would be intellectually dishonest. The caveat is simply that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I am perfectly ok with that, the only real problem I have is atheists that appear to have some sort of absolute knowledge and still try to say they are open to new evidence which in my eyes is contradictory
Well, there are a few things that I can claim to know about god with absolute knowledge. I can claim to know that there is not a god that is both infinitely just and infinitely merciful. That is because those two concepts are mutually exclusive. I can claim to know that there is not a god that is omniscient and omnibenevolent for a similar reason. You have to be able to sort out the logical arguments from the evidentiary arguments. There are some things that evidence could be provided for that would change my viewpoint on them. There are others where no evidence could be provided, because my viewpoint is based purely on logic, not evidence. There's no contradiction there, it's just different methods for evaluating different claims.
I see you on that, and I think my point is getting bigger for the small minority I am talking about... In the end the atheists I have a problem with are the ones that say "I know there's no invisible wizard in the sky, lol you're an idiot for believing," and then turn around and say they are totally open to change their stance if given evidence. They are not as prevalent as my continued postings might imply but when they appear they are very vocal. Because I don't think that those people are open to change at all, and if given evidence they would shrug it off so they can keep hating. But you definitely have a point about logical conclusions entirely separate from evidence, I never really thought about things in that manner.
So thanks for giving me a new angle to look at things from!
I still think you're misattributing your dislike for the people you're referring to. I'm pretty sure the reason you dislike them isn't the "I know there's no invisible wizard in the sky" part, but rather the "lol you're an idiot for believing" part. Which is totally reasonable. There's no reason for that kind of ad hominem in any debate, least of all one about religion where one is rendered somewhat helpless due to childhood indoctrination.
The part I think you're still missing about the evidence thing is just what caliber of evidence would be necessary for pretty much any atheist to believe theist claims. Basically, it comes down to the sky actually opening up and Jesus Christ actually descending on a cloud, bathed in heavenly light, followed by the end of the world. We have too much evidence against theistic claims for much of anything else to be convincing. Thinking about it realistically, it's quite obvious that anyone would be convinced by the end of the world (if their consciousness survived it), so there really isn't a subset of atheists that wouldn't be convinced by evidence. It would just take some really intense evidence.
That's the fundamental difference between atheists and theists, really. Theistic claims could be proved by evidence, because they make a positive assertion, but no evidences for their claims have ever been seen. Atheistic claims make a negative assertion, which leads to theists' ability to be completely closed to evidence, because negative assertions are by their nature either not provable, or very difficult to prove.
[–]P1C0 -5 points-4 points-3 points 7 months ago
False.
What you are talking about are Theist that are Fundamentalist. A small part does not represent the whole(what you and many are assuming/implying about every other theist). Not only that, but religion/beliefs itself is for people to feel "better" and its more about "morals" than actual "THIS IS TRUE!". Of course, fundamentalist theist and extreme atheist take this too literally and forget the whole reason why it was created in the first place: To live a better life if you are struggling one way or another.
This of course is a common trend in r/atheism and it does not represent what the majority of atheist think.
So in conclusion...you sir are an extreme atheist, and don't take things to literally because you are no better than the fundamentalist theist. I might start a topic about this because this part of reddit is getting ridiculous.
I am not talking about fundamentalists. All theists in the world have a belief in some divine being, and almost all theists believe in at least one of the other things I listed:
Theistic beliefs are often professing certainty (or something close to it) regarding the existence of deities, the divine authorship of certain books, the origin of the entire universe and biological world, the mind's relationship to the brain, and consciousness after death etc.
You also said:
religion/beliefs itself is for people to feel "better" and its more about "morals" than actual "THIS IS TRUE!"
Beliefs are what people hold to be true. Again, all theists by definition believe in a divine being, and almost all believe in some other supernatural things. These facts justify my statement. If religion for a particular theist is about morals and not beliefs, then they are not concerned with what's true about religion, so this whole post is irrelevant to them.
So in conclusion, you sir need to understand what people say before you respond to it. I might start spelling it out more clearly so people don't react with angry messages because these kind of responses are getting ridiculous.
[–]P1C0 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
All theist I known throughout my life have one thing in common..."hopefully there is a god because after this life you really don't know". Nobody and I mean NOBODY(theist not fundamentalist) have ever told me " I believe for certain that there is a god"
All theist by experience not by some "definition" would like for it to be true but they are NOT certain. People who are certain is what we theist called fundamentalist. You could call them "agnostic" by definition but then again they practice some type of religion and would like to believe it to be true.
Religion is not supposed to be about facts its about how to lead a better life, have expectations of what might be after this life, help cope with problems, etc. Religion is about beliefs to some point, but there is also no "certainty". If you are certain then you are a fundamentalism and you sir have twisted the word to mean something that is not.
True of religion? So in order to be in some type of religion you need to follow some guild lines written in stone? What like prying 5 times a day or someone will smash you to pieces? Or pray because I might go to hell? If you follow a religion to the T you are a a fundamentalist. End of story. Like I said the word has been twisted and represent to many something that is not.
I not angry, I'm just stating what I see.
[–]v_soma 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
It doesn't matter what the theists you know say or what you practice personally. That does not define theism. It's fine if religion for you is about hope, but for a large fraction of people in the world it involves strong beliefs, and for some it involves certainty. These are simply the statistics of theists.
The facts matter here. Theism has a definition, to believe that at least one deity exists. You don't get to redefine it to mean something different. If you or the people you know don't believe in at least one deity, then you are not theists.
How exactly is religion about leading a better life? According to the book that Christianity is based on (if you follow a different religion, I apologize, I would be happy to provide examples for your particular flavor), it is perfectly moral to have slaves, but perfectly immoral for gay people to have consensual sex. The idea of religion as a moral guide is beyond absurd.
[–]TEdwardK 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
You are talking out of your ass man. Even if religion is just something to "live a better life if you struggle" and we ignore the people taking it too literally, v_somas point still holds true. Overall it's irrational and harmful to believe in fairy tales just to help you thru life.
[–]christmasbonus 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Hmmm wonder how that jives with most of r/atheism being agnostic atheists while most christians settle on gnostic theism?
[–]LostFromYoutube 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
You just made that up on the spot; I, however, know that 63% of theists prefer dogs to cats
Given that many theists live their lives in a particular way and see atheists as a big threat and a very bad thing, they don't sound all that agnostic to me. Seeing the state of the world, most theists do appear to be pretty gnostic.
[–]christmasbonus 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago*
And you just made up the fact that I made it up on the spot. Why didn't you ask me to provide evidence instead? I've surveyed another site of a few hundred people and it turned out to be almost strictly gnostic theists vs agnostic atheists.
[–]LostFromYoutube -2 points-1 points0 points 7 months ago
BUT 2+2 =/= 5 !!!! burden of proof on the claimant!! Dawkins be praised
[–]deadsoon 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
He covered that with "fanatics."
Conservatives too!
Because all the arguments for theism are so easy to see through. We're not confident about what we know, we're confident about what isn't known and can't be known.
It's easy to be confident that leprechauns and ghosts don't exist.
[–]mhinojosa13 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
So... I agree with this sentiment more than I would ever like to. However, I always have an issue with expressing it to others because it implies that I believe that I am in some sense wise, which contradicts the fundamental premise of the idea. And then I immediately sense that something is faulty about that line of reasoning, but I can't quite figure out what it is--which in turn forces me to confront my own mental shortcomings, and I'm not sure how to interpret this confrontation given this fool/wise-man paradigm I've already established.
[–]deejayalemus 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
How about this: I know what I know. Until that changes. Then I will know differently.
[–]Redararis 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
This quote is so popular because we all think with certainty that we belong to the second group.
[–]Jowicota 4 points5 points6 points 7 months ago
Not only brilliant, but transcends all belief systems (including Atheism), holding consistently true for all of them. Gonna try to print this off and frame it in my home.
[–]normalite 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
"Not always right but never in doubt"...my motto.
That or "I'm not a complete idiot...some parts are missing".
[–]Bromleyisms 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
You do realize this applies to everyone, everywhere---not just fundie christians.
[–]kenatogo 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
Yeats said this in one of his famous poems, and also, pretty much every thinker dating back to Plato has come to the same conclusion. I'm not sure why this is news.
[–]NotSelfReferential 7 points8 points9 points 7 months ago
HAHA I AGREE THIS IS 100% TRUE, NO TWO WAYS ABOUT IT
[–]tansii 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
This guy ended up being my favorite philosopher in college. There are a lot of great stories about him.
[–]Kidney05 4 points5 points6 points 7 months ago
You guys seem pretty sure there is no god. Goes both ways, bro.
[–]nbouscal 2 points3 points4 points 7 months ago
Hey cool, another guy who hasn't read the FAQ.
Atheists in general are not sure that there is no god. We simply have never seen any evidence for any of the multitude of gods that humans have believed in over the millennia. The fundamental claim of atheism is that of lack of belief, and that lack of belief in most cases stems from a lack of knowledge, combined with a self-awareness of that lack of knowledge. The vast majority of atheists are agnostic atheists, whereas the vast majority of theists are gnostic theists. Agnosticism comes from a place of humility, while gnosticism most certainly does not.
[–]MasterBistro 3 points4 points5 points 7 months ago
Atheists in general are not sure that there is no god.
I don't think that /r/atheism is a perfect sample group of atheists, most of the posts seem strongly opposed to the idea of a god.
[–]nbouscal -2 points-1 points0 points 7 months ago
Absolutely. We are very strongly opposed to the idea of a god, because we have seen absolutely no evidence supporting the idea, and have seen great deals of evidence opposing the idea. That does not mean that we profess certainty as to whether the idea is correct. Do we have an opinion on the matter? Of course. That does not mean we think we know the answer.
A great comparison would be to the recent neutrino experiments. Science is pretty damn sure that relativity is accurate. We're pretty damn sure that neutrinos aren't actually traveling faster than light, and that there's some kind of calibration error that we just haven't figured out yet. Nevertheless, we're perfectly happy to continue investigating deeply into the issue, and if we do find proof that relativity is inaccurate, we will adjust our theories accordingly. That seems extremely unlikely, and we certainly won't adjust our theories until we're sure, but once we have sufficient evidence, we will go where the evidence leads us.
Similarly, atheists in general are pretty damn sure that there is no god. There is absolutely no evidence for any kind of divine being, and there is a lot of specific evidence against specific divine beings that are purported to exist. There are also great logical arguments against the very notion of certain divine beings, namely ones that contain attributes like omniscience, omnipresence, etc. Nonetheless, if we were to find evidence of a divine being, our models would be changed accordingly. Note that, like with neutrinos traveling faster than light, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So, a picture of Jesus on a piece of toast isn't going to cut it. However, were we presented with sufficient evidence to justify the claim, we would be perfectly happy to amend our claim.
That is, in a nutshell, agnosticism. The vast majority of atheists are agnostic atheists. We're perfectly happy to say that we don't know the answer, we just have some good ideas about what it might be.
[–]Kidney05 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
I can understand that. I personally have a "live and let live" mentality with religion so I think people can think whatever they want as long as they're not hurting anyone else-- hence I hate seeing r/atheism posts that are condescending to believers. I wouldn't mind an agnostic atheist, but I don't get that impression from any of these posts.
There are some really wonderful books out there that I would highly recommend if you still have a "live and let live" mentality about religion. If you've been around r/atheism at all, you've probably seen most of the recommendations already. Anything by Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens would be a great place to start. The simple fact is that religion is harmful to humanity.
As for agnosticism, there are really very few gnostic atheists on r/atheism. I actually find myself much closer to the gnostic side of the spectrum than the majority of people on here, simply because I'm more than willing to call myself a gnostic atheist with regards to specific deities, and most others I feel comfortable ruling out with arguments along the lines of theological noncognitivism. I tend to find myself arguing the minority view, here, though, which should be quite good evidence that the majority of atheists here on reddit are of the agnostic sort.
[–]ssercomic -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
I don't think it's that fanatical or foolish to say our ancestors were capable of making stuff up. It seems more like the completely ordinary position to take given the long history of human deceit and all that jazz. That's just my opinion, though. I don't believe the guys on the street corners talking about a 2012 apocalypse, and nobody calls me a fanatic or fool for saying so these days. But yeah on the matter of 2,000 year old stories we're all on the same ground, here! Makes perfect sense.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
That is the most profound thing I've heard in my entire life. I might just abstain from consummating my relationship with Sheldon because of it.
Sure thing, Amy.
[–]hrgilbert 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
What does this have to do with atheism? I'm not trying to sound like a dick, I am genuinely interested in your opinion!
The author was an atheist.
[–]hrgilbert -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
He was also British, should this be posted in /r/unitedkingdom?
[–]deejayalemus 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago*
Pedantic at best.
[–]mgorky -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago*
Here, let me brake it down for you.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
Now not just religious people can be fools or fanatics it's true, and i've met a few religious people who seemed wise.
But those driven and committed by faith seldom allow themselves to doubt it, making them foolishly unquestioning and fanatical often. They are the members of religious groups that most often draw ire of, and persecute atheist as a mater of routine. They are blinded by their faith, making them fools and fanatics.
The wise, who self question and question others, most often over time find that religion is at best, problematic. A lot remain spiritual in some way but distance themselves from the churches and temples they come of age with. And very often this leads to an agnostic or atheist position. Active anti-theists are at times prone to foolish certainty, but agnostics certainly not and atheist only claim a lack of belief in god, not a certainly about what is true. It may not make them wise in other things but about the question of god, it is the more moderate stance.
And very few have been persecuted or abused by atheists for their faith, but atheists and everyone else has been at some time abused, suppressed, oppressed, exploited and murdered for not believing in one, or the right god. Hence "The whole problem with the world" he talks about in the quote.
Thank you for breaking it down for me, oh wise one. But you unfortunately did nothing but make everything more muddy. In short, and quite simply, the quote is about two sets within the set human: foolish people (of which we will include fanatics, for simplicity's sake) and wise people. There are some atheists in both categories. There are religious people in both categories. Thus, the quote at best has an indirect (and, as we can now see, quite weak) relationship with atheism or theism. The quote is not meant for theists and atheists and it is not about theists or atheists. It is about the foolish and the wise.
The whole problem with the world has absolutely nothing to do with atheistic persecution or vice versa. The 'problem with the world' he is talking about is quite explicit: fools are certain of themselves, and the wise are not. I'm afraid that you are desperately trying to make this quote about atheism or theism and it seems to me that you failed to do so effectively.
Your argument and analysis of the quote, unfortunately is quite biased, inaccurate and at worst, spiteful. You make very large generalities and claims based on little to no evidence (from what I can see; which is all that you have presented me with).
[–]hrgilbert 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Why didn't you ever state that? Do you have a source?
[–]Grwl 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
"True wisdom is in knowing that you know nothing." Socrates
[–]tigerbird 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Relevant:
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2475#comic
[–]freakzilla149 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Isn't it amazing how the more we learn about something the more we understand that we don't really know much about it. It makes it difficult to speak with confidence about anything.
[–]mattwla 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
I think this serves as a lesson for those of us who consider ourselves intelligent and have the good of the world as our intentions. Be more passionate and decisive! Don't just think, act!
[–]TheLorax86 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Fools, fanatics, fundamentalists. FTFY (now with 50% more alliteration)
[–]HarryBlessKnapp 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
This is why stupidity can be a strength.
[–]nonsensepoem 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
That's not a paradox. Paradoxes aren't just ironic or funny situations.
[–]rda_Highlander 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Upvote!
...
Or maybe not?
[–]MyOverflow 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
This guy is famous for proving that 1+1=2 on page 362 of Principia Mathematica, an attempt by Russell and Whitehead to completely formalize and create a complete, consistent foundation for mathematics.
Then Gödel came along and showed that it's not possible. Drats!
[–]belowthelaw 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
It's also not a paradox.
I like this quote. At first I upvoted, but after discovering that the quote is not accurate you get a downvote! Be accurate!
The stupid are cocksure, the intelligent are full of doubt.
[–]rcinsf 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Yeah but he's getting 20m from Katy Perry! RICH BITCH!
[–]Cameljoe11593 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Good man
[–]brian44cali 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
I think most people get to the point where they just say "Aaw fuck it, if I'm right I'm right. If I'm wrong, who gives a shit? It was fun."
For example: this comment.
[–]validates_op 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
he also said "a stitch in time saves nine."
[–]AhhhClem 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
"Who understands does not preach; Who preaches does not understand." or "Those who know do not say; those who say do not know." depending on the translation (Lao-tzu)
[–]nomadz 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
That is also why I'm always pissed at people who rant about how atheists should be more "tolerant" and less vocal against religion... I'm not asking atheists to act like fools and be "certain of themselves" or mock religious people all the time, but in a world where the crazies and the intolerant manage to have the upper hand all the time just by making more noise and being absolutely convinced of their entitlement, vocal opposition is sometimes really needed... even if it's just politely asking challenging questions.
[–]nthensome 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Well said
[–]yroc12345 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Russel, Marx, Nietzsche, and Freud were the original Sagan, Hitch, Dawkins, and Harris.
[–]SaintCrouton 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Show me an atheist full of doubt, and I'll show you an agnostic.
[–]robertolycus 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Does Bertrand want wise men to be more confident, or is he just making an observation? Is this statement descriptive or prescriptive?
[–]ProzacLady 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Book recommendation: Logicomix. It's an excellent graphic novel that includes lots of biographical information on Bertrand Russell as well as explanations of some of his and other logicians' theories.
I know the book has been recommended on this subreddit before, but this thread seemed like a good place to repost. It's accessible and the notes at the end are a great primer on some of the great philosophers.
[–]jcbkmk13 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
The funny thing is that Bertrand Russell displays a fair amount of certainty by generalizing with this statement.
[–]Printerwater1 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
That's not really a paradox, if anything it's irony.
[–]guer_j 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Wow, this explain g.w.bush and obama presidency perfectly.
relevant
[–]mrmilitantatheist 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
God damn I love Bertrand Russell.
[–]mrewr 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
bertrand russell is a doubtful fool. long live the paradox.
[–]cryptobomb 0 points1 point2 points 6 months ago
How sweet the irony is of seeing this in this subreddit.
[–]ravin_monkey123 0 points1 point2 points 2 months ago
"True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing"
Socrates
[–]everyothernametaken1 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt
[–]StChas77 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
You see proclamations here all the time: All religious people are uneducated fools; doubly so for Christians who are nothing but a group of hateful, scumbag rednecks.
And yet, people can't upvote a quote by Bertrand Russel quickly enough, even if it flies in the face of the certainty that so many people in this subreddit enjoy so much.
You're right! It's simply inconceivable that, in a subreddit with 364,000 subscribers, one might see evidence of a diversity of ideas and opinions, some of which contradict each other.
It's perfectly conceivable!
That's why it's so surprising that it hardly exists.
Its existence is abundantly evident, for anyone who cares to look for it. I have no further interest in engaging you in discussion. Have a lovely evening.
[–]lamuella 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
the lesson here is that even if you feel exceptionally sure about yourself, have a little caution, in case you're one of the fools.
[–]ChickenFarmer 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Upvoted by 1,152 people who consider themselves wise.
[–]TheGhostOfDRMURDER 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Now, guys, was this really the best quote for this particular board?
You're rather sure of yourselves, is all I'm saying.
[–]DiddyDD -8 points-7 points-6 points 7 months ago
Haha soo hypocritical of you self preaching atheists
[–]ZackyBeatz -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
Wow, this is so true !
[–]fizolof -4 points-3 points-2 points 7 months ago
HAHA THATS SO TRUE CHRISTIANS ARE SO STUPID AND WE ARE THOSE SMART PEOPLE AMIRITE! EVERYBODY GIMME UPBOATS SO I WILL SOLVE ALL THE WORLD PROBLEMS IN THE WORLD FROM MY MASTURBATION STATION! IT'S GREAT TO BE A VOICE OF REASON, UNLIKE ALL THOSE DUMB PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH ME.
[–]Synergythepariah 1 point2 points3 points 7 months ago
Here, I'll help you /r/circlejerk
[–]yoshi314 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
yup, caps lock seems to be working fine. the amount of testing is more than adequate, thank you.
[–]LaymanSpeculating -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
Is the paradox here that we cannot be sure if Mr Russell is a fool or wise man since he is making a boldly assured statement regarding the reason for the worlds problems, you might say he is ´certain´, which presumably leads to the possibility he is a fool.
[–]disordered1 -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
It's not really a paradox at all.
It's likely due to people in doubt being more left-brain oriented and people that are certain being more right-brain oriented. Iain McGilchrist (Watch his talks on Google) often notes that left-brain oriented folks tend to be left with a sense of emptiness where as right-brain oriented folk are left with a sense of meaning, etc. Listen to him speak - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9WO2B8uI
[–]AtheistSanta -1 points0 points1 point 7 months ago
This is a cool quote, it reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Bill Maher's Religulous:
"And anyone who tells you they know, they just know what happens when you die, I promise you, you don't. How can I be so sure? Because I don't know, and you do not possess mental powers that I do not. The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions is not the arrogant certitude that is the hallmark of religion, but doubt. Doubt is humble, and that's what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting shit dead wrong."
[–]smokecat20 -4 points-3 points-2 points 7 months ago
I'm a fucking idiot brah!
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
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