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Looks like he slipped up (i.imgur.com)
submitted 8 months ago by Tubebaum
[–]MrDelirious 228 points229 points230 points 8 months ago
Yes. The God of the Old Testament was the tribal god of the Israelites.
There were others, and they wanted theirs to be the best.
[–][deleted] 98 points99 points100 points 8 months ago
Please read Karen Armstrong's "The History of God".
The ancient Hebrews were polytheists. Yahweh was their war god. Yahweh was a jealous god, and had the Hewbrews make a pact with him to worship him above the other gods after he saved them from Egypt.
He demanded more and more reverence above the other gods until the old testament was rewritten to exclude the other gods entirely.
[–]Radico87 46 points47 points48 points 8 months ago
And now his powers are limited to appearing in dog buttholes and toast. What a wargod.
[–]brn 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Sir, you earned yourself an upvote fo making me laugh a mouthful of half chewed peanuts over my keyboard
[–]palparepa 49 points50 points51 points 8 months ago
Kind of difficult if the Hebrews never were slaves in Egypt.
[–][deleted] 19 points20 points21 points 8 months ago
I was going to mention that actually, but I couldn't think of a way to work it in without distracting from the point I was making about the mythology.
Thanks for bringing it up. It's neater this way.
[–]Aruza 10 points11 points12 points 8 months ago
Gonna give you props for your awkward intelligence.
I often have trouble getting all my thoughts out coherently, and often fail miserably.
[–]pacman42 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I think it was when the Assyrians/Babylonians attacked Israel in its weakened state that the sect of Yahweh grew.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
This is true. I wonder when the whole Exodus story was fabricated though....
[–]khfn 9 points10 points11 points 8 months ago
If anyone wants to understand the other deities of ancient Israel, look into ancient Cana'an- their friendly neighbors.
[–]fuckingcaptcha 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Weren't El and Asherah also Sumerian or Assyrian gods? Were Ba'al Hada and Ashtart that as well?
[–]khfn 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
These deities have different names around the ancient Near East and show a clear evolution or growth of their identities on a time-line. It's interesting to see different cultural-takes on the planetary archetypes, but the roots are still present. Direct correspondences aren't so necessary for this understanding, although they're pretty established.
[–]arquebus_x 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
A few probably were, the same way that the top 1% elites were taken into exile in Babylon. They happened to be the ones who wrote the history, however, so their experience became the core experience even though the vast majority of Hebrews/Israelites were never part of it.
[–]chuckfinley31 14 points15 points16 points 8 months ago
relevant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg&list=PLA0C3C1D163BE880A&index=19&feature=plpp_video
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Indeed. This is the video that first introduced me to this idea. Blew my mind. Everyone should see it.
[–]Selfish_Gene 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Mind = blown
[–]chuckfinley31 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Same here friend. I used to be much like the guy who made the series. Christian who actually believed the bible was the word of God. I always asked questions and once I asked enough questions, I had come to the answer that answers them all.
[–]Phnglui 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
Are you serious? The whole Old Testament is full of polytheism and worship of other gods. That's the whole point of the books of the prophets - that Yahweh is the only god and they need to cut that shit out.
[–]DUG1138 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Let us not forget Dagon (wikipedia).
[–]ninkendo 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Aaand, bought. I knew buying a kindle was bad news. Way too easy to burn through my bank account.
[–]zelmerszoetrop 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
If you're a PIRATE, you can try library.nu
I know, right?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
kind of cool but slightly obscure claim
[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 8 months ago
Not really. I've heard this argument from a variety of sources.
[–]corruptpork 8 points9 points10 points 8 months ago
Is that why in Genesis 1:26 God says "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness...."? In Genesis 1:27 it also says both male and female were created in the image of God. I don't have a lot of background knowledge on the subject so I don't know if it's referring to the trinity or if the ancient Hebrews worshiped male and female deity's at the time.
[–]Tentacoolstorybro 11 points12 points13 points 8 months ago
Don't you know man? Only us Hebrews are true humans. Those Hittites? Sub-human savages, no better than some oxen.
We, made by the best god. Them? Who knows, probably some twisted she-demon.
So, grab this bronze spear and let's go.
[–]corruptpork 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I don't know, I'm not usually one to wipe out an entire tribe of people but........ you sound pretty sure about those twisted she-demons so count me in.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
I don't know. But the bible is filled with little hints like that, so it's a definite possibility.
But I do seem to recall that Genesis 1 is much newer than the rest of the olf testament, so maybe someone with a more thorough understanding of this subject can fill us in.
[–]morpheousmarty 7 points8 points9 points 8 months ago
The old testament starts like one god is making a special deal with one people and ends that the only god is making a deal with the "chosen" ones.
You can almost watch polytheism turn into monotheism if read it fast enough. If I recall correctly, they are even references of defeating other gods.
Here are some mentioned in the old testament: Asherah, Baal, Anath, El, Dagon
[–]corruptpork 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
If I'm not mistaken, there was a Pharaoh in Egypt who banned the worship of all the gods except for one. A relation perhaps?
[–]arquebus_x 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
"In our image, in our likeness" almost certainly just means "looking like a person" here. The idea was that the god(s) looked like people, so obviously, it was because people looked like god(s). The male/female thing is more specificity, which doesn't make any statement about the sex of the god.
[–][deleted] 8 months ago
[deleted]
[–]arquebus_x 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago*
By Christians, after the 1st century. In its original context, "in our image, according to our likeness" meant what I indicated.
[–]wackylol 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
When I learned about this in a secular college intro class about early creation stories and the like back in my Freshman year (great start to a sentence, I know), we were told the plural was meant to be the "royal we" in the sense that God is speaking plurally as king. He already has (although not really talked about) implicitly created an entire host of heavenly beings (they exist starting in Genesis and through the rest of the Bible but none of the creation tellings mention them).
[–]ThirdFloorGreg 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Definitely not referring to the trinity. Trinitarianism wasn't around for a long time after that.
[–]Bilbo_Fraggins 8 points9 points10 points 8 months ago
YHWH was also the chosen tribal god of Josiah, who you might recall "found" the "lost" book of the law.
If you want to know more about the history of the people that would come to be known as the Israelites, check out "The Bible Unearthed".
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
i'm as cautious as reading books with obscure claims about things that happened 2000 years ago as I am taking the bible as a serious historical text so you might forgive me if I don't jump onto amazon right away.
Might check it out though
[–]Bilbo_Fraggins 11 points12 points13 points 8 months ago
Obscure claims? You have obviously not followed Israeli archeology for at least 15 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history#Schools_of_archaeological_and_historical_thought
The book is about what is now by far the mainstream view.
[–]anon22_ 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Thank you for this. I came to reference The Evolution of God by Robert Wright which also tells about how the whole "no other gods before me" is actually a reference to the other gods at the time and Yahweh interacted with.
[–]R88R 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
but don't read "A Case for God"... It's an exercise in false dilemmas and arguments from ignorance, topped off with a terrible interpretation of Kuhn's philosophy of science.
I'm interested in reading that book, very interested in fact. However, I notice that Karen Armstrong also has written "The Case for God," which makes me suspect she is theist and writes from a theist perspective.
Does that influence her history of the Israelites? Does she accept the exodus as historical?
[–]SebCS 23 points24 points25 points 8 months ago
Anthropocentricity at its finest.
[–]Tself 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Nice, my dictionary didn't even have that.
[–]mice_and_mirrors 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
That's because it's a mutant Greek/Latin word and your dictionary is too purist.
[–]autonym 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
What's your dictionary? The word is in Merriam-Webster online: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anthropocentric
[–]Phallic 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
I think he was talking about "Antropocentricity" specifically, as opposed to anthropocentrism.
[–]Parallelcircuit 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Good word, nice woody sound to it.
[–]thesoppywanker 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
This must be a six dollar word.
[–]trentlott 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
In Islamic tradition, Moses jews God down from something like 500 prayers a day to 5.
[–]tmesispieces 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
He was also susceptible to modern technological advancements of his time:
Judges 1:19 - "And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." KJV
[–]Lukkie 9 points10 points11 points 8 months ago
The exclusivity of the relationship between Yahweh and Israel is an important element in Israel's oldest religious tradition. However, it is not necessary to ascribe the present formulation of the commandment ["you shall have no other gods before me"] to a very early stage of the tradition, nor is it advantageous to interpret the commandment as if it inculcated monotheism. The commandment technically enjoins monolatry, but it can be understood within a henotheistic religious system.
[–]kergeten 20 points21 points22 points 8 months ago
The what what with the what what?
[–]pitiesthefool 15 points16 points17 points 8 months ago
God not wanting an open relationship is an important part of Judaism. We don't have to attribute the current phrasing of "you shall have no other gods before me" to early Judaism, and it's not helpful to interpret it as teaching monotheism. It technically teaches monolatry (the belief that there are many gods, but you must only worship one), but it also works in a henotheistic (like monolatry, but more inclusive) religion.
I think that's what he meant. ¯(°_0)/¯
[–]Omegastar19 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
It means that early jews thought there were many gods but they worshipped Yahweh only. They saw the other gods as rivals to Yahweh.
[–]Tachyx 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
The God of the Old Testament was one of the tribal gods of the Israelites Canaanites.
[–]Nicoon 7 points8 points9 points 8 months ago*
The Israelites are a subgroup of the Caananites, so they're really the same people, at least when it comes to their cultural heritage.
[–]Tachyx 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
We can say for sure that what the Bible says is definitely not true. Several different tribes came together to eventually become Israel, but some of them were native (Canaanites), some of them were nomads, and some of them were immigrants fleeing other lands for different reasons.
The problem is that the nomads and immigrants didn't preserve any of their own history that is consistent with the histories of their neighbors.
[–]Nicoon 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Several different tribes came together to eventually become Israel, but some of them were native (Canaanites), some of them were nomads, and some of them were immigrants fleeing other lands for different reasons.
Source? I've read plenty stating that the Israelites came from the Canaanites.
[–]Calsendon 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Wasn't he their god of war?
I'm no authority on this subject; I merely recall so from a video I watched titled "History of God" by evidence (with some 3s).
[–]RebelTactics 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Even in the old testament god said "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness."¹
Even the first Judaic/Christian book implies there were more than one god at the helm. Perhaps someone could shed some light on this historical conundrum. What were all the gods at the time of the beginning of Judaism? Who were these other gods that were left out of the scriptures? I ask only from a historical perspective.
[–]Phnglui 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Kings in ancient times would often refer to themselves in plural form, to imply that they're speaking for the whole kingdom. His plurality in Genesis is a reference to his authority as a king, not to other gods.
That said, Genesis is more than likely not verbatim how Creation went, simply how the Israelites of the First Temple period imagined it happened.
[–]ProfessorGalapogos 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Source please. I've never seen any good evidence for this interpretation.
I can't find it offhand, but I believe the book is called "The Old Testament: An Introduction to the Hebrew Bible." Used it in an Old Testament course at LSU. It was my first time learning about the documentary hypothesis. Great book, my professor was great too.
Thank you for sharing that. in the past I'd heard people go as far as to say there were many gods even aliens as an explanation. Your's is the logical explanation and I am glad to have closure on that matter.
[–]fuckingcaptcha 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Came here to say just this.
[–]Nikoras 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Ehhh even I'll chalk this one up to poetic licensing, it's the whole "magic is real" thing that gets me.
[–]captainhaddock 28 points29 points30 points 8 months ago*
Biblical scholarship is actually moving away from the term "monotheism" in Old Testament studies since it does not accurately describe the religious beliefs of the Israelites, who were generally polytheists or henotheists.
One of the oldest verses, in Deuteronomy, tells of the seventy sons (gods) of the creator god El, of whom Yahweh, the patron deity of Israel and Judah, was one. The same doctrine appears in the pre-Israelite religious texts of Ugarit, except that their pantheon did not include Yahweh. (But it did include Baal and several other gods that are mentioned in the Old Testament.)
Psalm 82 describes a heavenly courtroom scene in which the other gods are judged by the assembly of El, found guilty of failing their nations, and sentenced to death. Dominion over these nations is then given to Yahweh (who was previously just the god of Israel and Judah).
[–]Barney21 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
I didn't know about this one. The Psalms are some of the newest material in the OT.
[–]captainhaddock 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
As a collection that is true, but some of them preserve quite old stories and myths. Many have close parallels in the religious literature of Babylon or Egypt.
[–]MoT 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Mesopotamia and then Egypt. Which is an important distinction because as far as historically the deity structures passed on from a civilization to another.
Found in Sumer first(Akkad, Babylon, Ur, Uruk, Eridu, etc...[New day Iraq and parts of Iran]).. With the rest of the oldest preserved written material found to date..
Then found in Egypt, then Greece and finally in Rome(in order of appearance in the respective civilizations)..
[–]greqrg 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Oddly enough, I think I learned this reading Snow Crash.
[–]captainhaddock 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago*
Which is an important distinction because as far as historically the deity structures passed on from a civilization to another.
True, but the authors of the Bible didn't necessarily adopt those stories in that order. Canaanites (including Israelites) had close cultural ties with Egypt throughout the period the Bible was written. There were Jewish settlers in Egypt, Jewish mercenaries fighting wars in Egypt, and even Jewish temples in egypt.
Egyptian religion didn't really influence the Bible that much, but their stories (e.g. Moses) and wisdom writings (e.g. Proverbs) did.
[–]MoT 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
No idea about the order of adoption of stories.. As far as history of the Canaanites and Israelites goes, there isn't as much availible information that's stripped of a theist viewpoint, at least not as far as I've encountered. Yes, Jericho and others are/were incredibly old settlements and these tribes were probably present in between Sumer and Egypt maybe the whole time.. it's hard to make out from what's left.
I was merely trying to point out that one did not exclude the other but preceeded it. The one constant being the deity structure and their relations and a general theme of all the stories. That to me is intriguing that it has one source from which the others just copied(ie. Sumer).
[–]el_chivo 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I read on the footnotes of my school bible that the word used for “God” in the genesis was "Elohim". I later learned that this word is a plural.
Also in this bible (it was the “standard” Spanish bible) in the genesis god always talks like if they are a bunch of people, like “…[if they eat the apple] they will become like Us”.
[–]Pantsman0 50 points51 points52 points 8 months ago
Yes, in the original writing of the start of the Old Testament had at least 3 gods(that I can find): El Elyon (God of all/most high/father of the gods) ,El Shaddai (God of the Mountains, who handed down the 10 commandments to Moses), Yahweh (The Great Warrior, who was rewritten into to earlier books to be the only god)
Evid3nc3 has a good explanation of the origin of the old testiment starting with this video
[–]gahvandure 17 points18 points19 points 8 months ago
The king of somewhere or other (Moab I think?) sacrificed his son to another god (Chemosh, I think?) so he could beat the Israelites in battle...and it worked.
Too lazy to go get the chapter & verse right this second, but I'll come back to it.
[–]ADNox 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Thanks; this was a story I didn't know, despite several theology classes.
[–]gahvandure 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
2 Kings 3:18-19
God promises Elisha (the prophet) that the Israelites will overthrow the city and conquer Moab.
2 Kings 3:26-27
The king of Moab sacrifices his son (to the Moabite deity, though I can't find the reference to the name Chemosh), and the Israelites lose.
[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 8 months ago
I would think that these are just different names for the one God, but you seem to know more about this than I do. What I learned in religious studies was that God never revealed his true name in order to retain his power. Also, the Bible was written by many people, not just one, so it would make sense that different individuals would invent some other name for him. I'm thinking about this from a Catholic's prophetic POV, not from any sort of scientific, logical outlook.
[–]AmbroseB 8 points9 points10 points 8 months ago
That just sounds like a religious rationalization. Reminds me of the whole trinity thing and how they are three entirely different beings but, like, really only one god, somehow.
[–]joeflux 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Wait, God would lose his power if someone knew his true name!?
[–]el_chivo 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I think that in the Jewish tradition, all those names are different aspects of god, like the merciful god or the fighting god. But this could have been just a way to unify a pantheon of gods into a single being. Also I think that saying the true name of god will destroy the entire existence, not lose his powers.
[–]monedula 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
And one of the words usually translated as "God" or "Lord" is Elohim which typically has a plural meaning.
Edit: this is the background to the Skeptics Annotated Bible column on gods, which I see Lowbacca1977 has already linked to.
[–]Pantsman0 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Yeah, I consider Elohim mostly a group term for the gods worshipped before the monotheistic rewrite
[–]arquebus_x 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
That idea is just a major fail at understanding the ancient Hebrew language, nothing more. Elohim may be a plural word but it can refer to a singular entity.
[–]monedula 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
The failure is yours: Elohim can be used as a singular entity but in the bible is frequently used as a plural entity. As you would know if you had bothered to follow the link I provided.
I didn't have to bother, this stuff is elementary biblical Hebrew. Karen Armstrong is good, but she's not a specialist in biblical Hebrew or ancient Israelite/Hebrew religion.
[–]INeverFinishMySen 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
The study of Biblical etymology is a tricky subject, but this might help clear it up
While many may think Christians are stupid, Biblical scholars know their book.
An article that opens by asserting that the purpose of man is to glorify God, without any qualification at all, is not an article that can be trusted to clear anything up.
[–]INeverFinishMySen 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I would trust people who have studied the Bible, religious texts, Hebrew, Greek, and Arabic for decades over a comment on the internet, but hey, that's just like my opinion man.
[–]samisbond 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
And this is based off of A History of God by Karen Armstrong.
[–]Barney21 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Solomon also worshiped Chemosh (among others) (1 Kings 11:7):
On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites.
[–]CrunxMan 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
You seem knowledgeable about this subject. I've always been interested in ancient myths, what version of the bible would you suggest I read (considering there are hundreds of english translations)?
[–]Geroots 10 points11 points12 points 8 months ago
In my terrible religion class (taught by a catholic monk) we learned about how the one true God fought the Egyptian gods and stuff. Me and him got in an argument then i got sent to the principal and she had a bowl of candy on her desk and I took all the candy and I won.
[–]-xCaMRocKx- 13 points14 points15 points 8 months ago
Something that's always bugged me: an integral part of Christianity is acknowledging Yahweh is the only true god, and you mustn't make idols of or pray to any other. Now, I suppose this could be extended to include Jesus, but even so, isn't praying to saints directly against their god's word? Doesn't that extend to having paintings and statues of these saints?
Doesn't this mean you are performing a grievous sin every time you say something like, "Mary was looking out for me?"
[–]EmperorSexy 16 points17 points18 points 8 months ago
This is what bugged Martin Luther 500 years ago. The only statue you'll see in a Protestant church is Jesus, whom Christians regard as being One with Yahweh. You're supposed to worship Jesus, because He is the Son of God, and He is God. God can be His own Son, because, hey, He's God.
[–]yaharon 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Dogma is such a confusing bitch.
[–]KaayLemc 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Prayers to the saints and Mary are used because it is believed that when asked, they will intercede or pray for those who seek their help (kind of like when someone asks his community to pray for a personal intention). This isn't considered worshipping them because we know that they have no power without God. However we use prayer to ask them for help. Because we know that they are holy and have reached the ultimate goal of heaven, catholics have statues of Mary and the saints because it celebrates and honors them. It gives us reminders of the exemplary lives they led. As for Mary looking out for you, her opinion is thought to be held in such high regard by God that her will has a greater chance of helping us than merely our own.
[–]-xCaMRocKx- 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
But in order to be canonized (at least in the Roman Catholic church), mustn't one have performed at least two miracles?
It seems to be rather shaky ground to me.
I'm not saying they are officially recognised as gods by the church. But people do pray to them, and do say "Saint X cured/saved/helped me." Are these people doing it wrong?
[–]pointis 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Catholic-born atheist here. In theory, the miracle requirement is still in place. In practice... let's just say that Mother Theresa is gonna get in, but never performed a miracle in her life.
But no, saints aren't gods, demi-gods, istari or any such thing. The truth is, the Church's explanation for why the saints are useful is pretty much exactly what KaayLemc said. I know it doesn't make sense, because why would an all-powerful God want or need intercessors? Obama needs surrogates because he can't be everywhere at once. God, in theory, has no such need.
Therefore, saints make no sense. Try telling that to the Pope.
[–]AmbroseB 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
If they want to make someone a saint they will probably just make up some miracles. After all, all you need is one dude who once kinda of saw her totally heal a guy with her hands or shit like that, the burden of proof isn't exactly overwhelming.
[–]KaayLemc 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I really can't say if anyone is living their faith correctly or not :) However for the roman catholics the definition of a saint is actually just a person who is in heaven. We recognise certain people in history as saints because they have lived lives that mimmick the selfless way that Jesus lived and told us to live and we've collected enough evidence to say with near certainty that they are in heaven. They have performed miracles through God and always accredited him, never assuming responsibility for that power, so I think maybe this is stronger that simply performing miracles? At any rate the criteria for becoming a saint is quite stringent, going far beyond performing miracles. For example, you know the story of the children at Fatima? It is accepted by the church that they saw Mary appear to them yet even all these years later they have not yet acquired the title of "saint". I like to think that even if people do not fully understandand, and therefore assume the saints have their own god like power, that God understands people well enough to know we're all plagued by naivety and aren't actually trying to be blasphemous. Haha I hope that helps give a different perspective on things. I prefer to trust my own feeling when it's a little different from what the church says. After all, they're human too... Things get lost in translation.
[–]-xCaMRocKx- 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Very interesting. While I'm certainly not a believer, religion fascinates me and it's always good to hear from people within different religions. Thanks for spending some time to explain your understanding to me! :)
[–]Tachyx 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
The Israelite fight against polytheism is a relic held over into Christianity. But since they are trying not to edit out anything, they try to create some application of it in a world without other gods.
[–]mice_and_mirrors 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
They've had 2000 years to think this through, dude. I'm sure you could find entire chapters on these questions in many major theologians, like Thomas Aquinas.
A basic premise followed in much Catholic theology is "lex orandi, lex credendi," which means "the law of prayer is the law of belief." That means that (traditional) prayer is the standard by which theology is measured, not the other way around.
[–]step1makeart 12 points13 points14 points 8 months ago
the two are not exclusive statements. just because someone worships a god, does not make that god exist. The statement means, "do not worship any other gods but me," which can be followed with, "because I am the one true/real God," without contradiction.
[–]OsakaWilson 10 points11 points12 points 8 months ago
What exactly disqualifies Satan as a God?
[–]TheCastle 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Personally I always suspected they are the same guy. One has a twirly mustache and is red skinned and that's about it.
[–]Zyphane 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Well, the Christian conception of Satan is that of a fallen angel, making him the creation of, and therefore inferior to, the Big G.
Also, deities tend to serve a function of some sort, managing some greater or lesser part of existence. In orthodox Christian belief, Satan doesn't really do much more than antagonize the Heavenly Host and work to corrupt and mislead humans.
[–]EncasedMeats 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
the Christian conception of Satan is that of a fallen angel
Wasn't that just Milton's conception? Ah, also the Book of Enoch, which is not usually canon.
[–]haroldp 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
A fervent belief that your religion is monotheistic despite the obvious evidence to the contrary.
[–]Larhalt 26 points27 points28 points 8 months ago
playing devils advocate here but i think it means something like
no other "false" gods..
[–]Barney21 13 points14 points15 points 8 months ago
Fine, but that is just your interpolation. The original document does not say that.
[–]imsoinspain 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
But what you seem to be missing is that all that matters to believers are their own particular "interpolations," and they think that's legit because "faith."
[–]Haddaway 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
The Bible has been rewrote and translated so many times that I don't think anyone can say what the 'original document' says.
[–]Omegastar19 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
No, if they believed that other gods were false, the commandment shouldve said "Thou shalt have no other gods BUT me". 'before' is very different, as it implies that Yahweh is simply the most important god, that he should be worshipped in preference to worship of other gods.
[–]Goupidan 8 points9 points10 points 8 months ago
Yes and the English semantics apply to Hebrew.
[–]jingerjew 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Quit being anti-semantic.
[–]darth_chocolate 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
The best thing about this joke is its recyclability.
Yoink!
This is me doubting you know enough about hebrew to make that call in this situation.
[–]hotbowlofsoup 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I don't get how it would imply this.
Before here means in front of.
[–]Aphidina 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
I love the irony how defending Christians/God's holy bible means "playing devils advocat".
[–]DisFuRiteHur 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago*
That would imply he himself was "false"
[–]Rockran 12 points13 points14 points 8 months ago
He jelly.
[–]Trioate 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Yup.
[–]TheCastle 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Why the heck is his name jealous and then it goes on to say that he is jealous too... Who goes around with a jealous name?
[–]PyrusFTSC 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
I'd take it more as god saying "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. By that I mean don't you crazy free willed humans make up any other gods to worship. I'm looking at you L Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith"
[–]Arlieth 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
I feel rather geeky that I learned about monolatrism from Snow Crash.
[–]erzzr 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
The early Jews believed in one true god, but believed that other gods existed. This is called monolatry
[–]sogladatwork 7 points8 points9 points 8 months ago
Actually, early, early Jews were polytheistic. It was a small cult of Yahweh that came to prominence and declared that there was only one true God.
To me it is questionable whether these "early Jews" you are talking about were Jews in any sense.
You could argue they were Hebrew speakers, but most Jews throughout history have not spoken Hebrew (and still don't today), so that seems like a poor definition.
Claims about their belief system are based on extremely scanty evidence, mostly from the OT which is heavily slanted. The people of the Levant ere not monument builders, andthe archeological evdince of their beliefs is extremely thin. Anyway modern Judaism is based on the Talmud which was written in the early Middle Ages -- after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
There have been a lot of religions in the Middle East over the past 3,000 years. Nobody really knows what people were worshipping when.
[–]TheDerpster907 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
i always thought that... never thought to put in the form of philosoraptor
[–]teslaisajoke 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I admit nothing.
[–]KaayLemc 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Hmm I believe that "no other gods before me" means do not make other things into a god, or give them that status i suppose, as they would therefore come before Him in your life. For example the golden calf was made into a god by the Israelites and God didn't like that. So when He says to not have gods before Him, He isn't saying there really are others but that we might mistake other things for gods.
[–]Hillska 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Although there were other acknowledged Gods in the Old Testament, it's also important to remember that most Christians and Catholics acknowledge that the Bible is not perfect. It was the word of God, transcribed by man (who is imperfect,) which means it is imperfect. I've found that a lot of the time, it's better not to pick out little arguments like this based on how something in the Bible is worded because your argument is usually shot down and not even acknowledged just because they admit the bible 'isn' perfect.'
[–]darkangelx 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Man you didn't grow up in the south, people 'round these parts here think that shit is the literal word of god, written by god, and is perfect in every way and if you find something wrong it is YOU that is wrong, not the book.
Not sure where are from but 'round here saying that shit gets you bitch slapped and kicked out the front door.
[–]PlaySomeJazz 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
This law actually comes from the Torah (The 5 Books of Moses), which according to tradition is the only writing in the Bible that was dictated by God himself, word for word, and is therefore perfect. This leaves out the "human imperfection" argument (for this situation).
But he can stack a turtle on it and say your argument is invalidated by his previous statement of imperfection. It's bullshit all the way down. Personally I believe that this whole argument is probably the one thing in your life that you should try to maintain absolutely no stance on, as both binary postions in the argument (is there a god, or isn't there a god) are simply bets to make. You are betting on one immeasurable outcome of a race that never ends.
[–]deathbyboobies 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
So... does this mean we can have Gods after him?
[–]Whawhawah 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I see what you did there...
[–]DeadMan32 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Not at all He is talking about how you should not create a faluse God and worship it instead of him. It's like if you walked up to Joe bag i'donuts down the street and said I think that your a God I'm gonna worship you now for the rest of my life. People really need to think about what they are saying when they make comments like this. Comprehention levels must be a bit low.
YOU get a god...and YOU get a god..and YOU get a god!....
[–]xboxter 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I hate it when the Bible says things that make Mormonism look correct.
[–]DocPenguin01 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago*
He's saying that you can have other imaginary friends too, but you have to chill with him when he's bored.
[–]Gramma42ton 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Now a Christian would tell you that it's a metaphor to not worship false things because of temptation where "god" is a loose synonym of deity and it refers to a higher moral.
Now, as an atheist, I can safely say that all this is steaming pile that deserves no merit since a literal interpretation makes the whole thing laughable. Hence, why it is most likely written by a human for the sole purpose of influencing other people under the pretext of a superstition.
The ambiguity is there to keep people talking about the contents of the book rather than how retarded it is as a whole.
[–]Yserbius 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
It's just another issue with the Ancient Hebrew to English translation that is the King James Bible. The actual wording used is "There should not be amongst you other lords". The Hebrew word for "lord" (el/eloha/elohai/elohim/elohecha) is often used to refer to the Lord, and is the word used over here, instead of the Tetragrammaton which has no other meaning.
[–]downloadar 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Just to compare,
In Islam the declaration of one who becomes a Muslim reads:
لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله (lā ʾilāha ʾillallāh, Muḥammad rasūlu-llāh) (in Arabic) There is no god but God, and Muhammad is the messenger of God. (in English)
Its worded in a perfect way that it cannot be indetpreted in any other way. And the first part "There is no god but God" is more important that the rest of creation.
[–]acntech 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Funfact: Yahweh used to be part of a pantheon of multiple gods. Judaism didn't just pop into existence as monotheistic religion. Lots of traces are left in the bible.
no. hes saying "dont make up any more imaginary friends because im a sensitive malevolent imaginary friend and when i get jealous, i wait for a bad storm to come through and take credit for all teh people who drown
[–]Lowbacca1977 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/gods.html Whole right column
[–]sogladatwork 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
At the time it was written, it wasn't even claimed that he was the only God. That came later.
[–]huskarx2 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Yes.
If you and god were to be in a relationship, god is telling you upfront, any form of cheating with other gods is a dealbreaker. This is the cosmic pre-nup.
Penalty for breaking it is a little worse than god getting half, something like you burn in hell.
[–]joeflux 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
And your children too, according to the second of the 10 commandments.
[–]a111127 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago*
the bible had to address the multiplicity of gods because all religions want to have a monopoly on god-hood. they know they have competition, and they know they have to respond to criticism and defend themselves against competitors. so there it is the admission that there are other gods right there in the 10 commandments because this point is so important.
calling other gods "false gods" is the "no true scotsman" fallacy, and it doesn't matter if they are false or not, just stating the obvious existence of any type of gods is a degradation of xtianity. those others gods are false? then why not some asshole with the stupid fucking name "YHWH" can be a false god too!
and religions are afraid to name their god, so they just use the generic term "god" and they attempt to own the word by capitalizing it and making it synonymous with YHWH... because if they said YHWH instead of god, people would just mock them, and because of the ethnicity of the name the xtian religion would rightfully be mocked a jewish religion. and considering how many people HATE jews their influence would decline. further its important to point out to people that xtianty, judaism AND islam are all abrahamic religions and as such are brothers fighting amongst themselves. not unique, not different, but merely shades of the same butchery common to all of them
[–]TheOthin 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Can't find verification of it, but I recall reading that Adonai was the name of the god of weather from an earlier polytheistic religion. If this is the case, it seems that Judaism originated as a sect within that religion saying that Adonai was the best of the many gods and supporting him in defeating the other gods. Certainly, it's the same story that gets told with Moses in Egypt: The Pharoh demonstrates magical powers of his own gods when he turns his staff into a snake, but Moses then turns his own staff into a snake and has it eat the Pharoh's snake. The story was not that Adonai was the only god, but that he was the best and most powerful god.
[–]Phnglui 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Adonai is Hebrew for "lord."
The Bible makes many comparisons (indirectly) between Yahweh and Marduk though. Genesis 1 picks up perfectly after the end of the battle between Marduk and Tiamat in the Enuma Elish, and Psalms and Isaiah mention God slaying Leviathan / Chaos.
[–]deepthrought 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
well he's not.
[–]altgrrr 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
God didnt say that, humans did.
[–]SwampJew 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Not only did he 'admit' that, in the first temple they were all worshiped. Yahweh just got supreme billing, Ishtar was #2.
[–]DHumefan 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Touche.
[–]hyper_sun 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
if religious fundamentalists were on r/atheism, would they be convinced by a thoughtful dinosaur? edit: thought it was another subreddit
[–]thejewishdilemma 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
There are plenty of references to other Gods in the Torah, like Bael for one.
He's just the Goddiest God, is all.
[–]wzuur 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
actually, yes. christians just don't even understand their own religion. they also say they don't believe in reincarnation, but jesus talks about it pretty clearly.
[–]Rendez 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
As it was explained to me and I believe it makes sense, is that anything that you put before God is your God, for example, if you play video games religiously (see what I did tharr?) you are worshiping the video game before God, therefore, you created what is to be considered as your God.
[–]MSpainting 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
It probably reveals more about the people who wrote the bible than anything else.
[–]Smallpaul 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
"It was all a metaphor." "the competing gods are money and pride"
No, I do not believe the ten commandments were metaphorical, but that is what apologists will say.
[–]NeedsMoreCrazy 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Just because you worship a god, doesn't mean the god exists.
You may have no other imaginary gods before God.
[–]lakewoodjoe112 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
He doesn't say that there aren't any other gods, but rather one true God.
[–]undergarden 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Well, yeah. Monolatry/henotheism was in force at the time.
[–]iiRockpuppy 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
That's for the viewer to decide.
[–]Halvarian 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
No people, god means money! People shouldn't worship money! Donate everything to the church!
[–]IDST 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
The commandment states, "thou shalt not worship false Gods before me". Nowhere does it entertain the idea that there are other gods. I was raised Irish Catholic, but am an Atheist by choice, i.e. don't bother responding if you think i'm wrong :) this is fact, not my "interpretation" of the commandments.
[–]listguru 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Is "she" admitting.....
[–]nnnslogan 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Judaism was the product of an attempt to institute monotheism where there had previously only been polytheism. In the previous pantheon Yahweh had a female counterpart, and was one of the many children of the god El.
Despite attempts at revisionism, you can still see the outlines of the previous polytheistic religion in Bereshith (Genesis) especially in the fact that the plural word "elohim" (gods) is featured so prominently. That's why it says things like "Let us make him in our image."
[–]Zapooo 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Aw man, he done goofed...
[–]I2ichmond 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
By "before," I think the text means "of higher priority." Whenever scripture is interpreted (theistically OR atheistically) one must remember that the english they are reading is simply the optimal translation... all the more reason it shouldn't be taken literally!
[–]Neurogasm 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
What the heck is this crap?
[–]worduser 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
did they not have a bigger picture
[–]Vertical_Horizon 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Using that as some kind of 'smoking gun', is simply an old Jedi mind trick.
Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
By the way, greetings ! (I'm new here...)
[–]milagr05o5 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Upon reading this, I just heard George Carlin answer the OP question in his best fuck the children comedy voice (oh wait, he's not going to touch the children, is he?!)
...
YES HE IS
(... admitting that he is not the only god)
[–]Bendrake 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
This post is a little ignorant. God was acknowledging the fact that other "Gods" were being worshipped. He was stating that those other "God's" should not be worshipped. Don't read a verse of the Bible and then go running to your laptop to post on Reddit. Intelligent debate is welcome, but that is not what this is. For instance, I would never enter or start a debate on molecular structure knowing only one small thing about it.
[–]griesuschrist 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Yes, I think it also refers to the golden cow that everyone was worshipping below the mountain. And this verse refers to them worshipping fake gods instead of the one true god.
Meh, probably doesn't help too much but that is my two cents.
[–]ProteanHero 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
ie. the JEDP hypothesis.
[–]inquirer 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
(from a Christian)
There's no slip-up. That's entirely correct. It's silly that many Christians have tried to say there are no other gods when the Bible is very clear that other "gods" of some sort exist.
[–]bruiserman 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
So you believe there are several gods out there that refuse to show themselves and you think you picked the right one as well? Interesting.
[–]God__Here 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Ra, Odin, Zues, Kronos, the Titans, Chaos, I hid them away to never be found ;)
[–]konamorris 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Good point! Thanks.
[–]xedsullivanx 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Actually, Yes.
[–]OminousHippo 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
God didn't write the Bible, people did.
[–]sirbruce 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Don't forget when Moses challenged the power of the Egyptian Gods to the Pharoah, the Pharoah's court magician turned his staff into a snake. Sure, Moses turned his into a bigger snake that ate the first snake, but the supernatural power of the Eygptian Gods is undeniable in Christianity.
[–]mikeyc252 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Seriously, r/atheism? This Commandment was applied to the Israelites who were creating false idols out of gold and worshipping them. It can quite clearly be applied to the practice of creating Gods, worshipping things like God, and, in our modern age, taking material things more seriously than God.
This is not a new interpretation. It's an obvious one. But of course, I wouldn't expect r/atheism to point it out, since doing so would require learning about Christian theology and hermeneutics, and then actually speaking up in a thread that quickly becomes devoted to pointing out the polytheism rampant in the OT, COMPLETELY missing the point of the commandment.
[–]moediggity 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Optimus Prime has always been there for me.
[–]Atrain009 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Ew, logic.
[–]FooingBars 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Actually a more correct reading of the Hebrew phrases that make up the "10 Commandments" might sound like the below:
If you are My people, you will have no other gods before Me.
And so on with an implied repetition of the phrase "If you are My people, you will..."
The crux then is the word "will" and the implication of human freedom to go against God's commands and will for His "people".
Common mistake, but thanks for opening a forum so we could talk this out!
Edit: i can't spell
[–]dangerousmutelunatic 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Actually yes. According to my anthropology prof, in the bible they mention that the Israelites don't worship Baal. Not that Baal isn't a god, but that they simply don't worship him, and other people worship him.
[–]Slavigula 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
If there were a real god then he'd never say that, it's pointless saying from his perspectives. Now, the bible was written by people who wanted everybody to obey "their god" so when they were writing it then it was making sense to them. One of many idiocies from the bible.
[–]larmander 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Ahem. Wasn't it actually "no false gods before me...."
Yes, that is exactly what he is saying. If there are no other gods, why is He always shown as a jealous god? What does He have to be jealous of?
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