use the following search parameters to narrow your results:
e.g.reddit:pics site:imgur.com dog
reddit:pics site:imgur.com dog
see the search faq for details.
advanced search: by author, community...
2,813 users here now
Welcome to r/atheism, the web's largest atheist forum. All topics related to atheism, agnosticism and secular living are welcome here. Please read our FAQ.
Recommended reading and viewing
Thank you notes
Related Subreddits <--the big list
Chat: #reddit-atheism on irc.freenode.net
Watch: #/r/atheism on reddit.tv
Read The FAQ
Submit Rage Comic
Submit Facebook Chat
Submit Meme
Submit Something Else
reddit is a source for what's new and popular online. vote on links that you like or dislike and help decide what's popular, or submit your own! learn more ›
The logic is uncanny (imgur.com)
submitted 8 months ago by monkyjojo234
[–]OnlyChobo 98 points99 points100 points 8 months ago
Read that so many times to make sure I didn't miss subtle difference.
[–]JediApprentice 9 points10 points11 points 8 months ago
Oh my god me too. I even got out a calculator for effect.
[–][deleted] 8 months ago
[deleted]
[–]fencerJP 24 points25 points26 points 8 months ago
So Polytheists can't have faith? Buddhists can't have faith? Is faith limited to your idea of God? Or is it abrahamic in nature?
Oh what a tangled web we weave...
[–]Fat-Elvis 8 points9 points10 points 8 months ago
Can't tell if trolling or actually insane...
[–]Drakonisch 7 points8 points9 points 8 months ago
Known troll, don't feed it.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
-3720 karma; pretty sure trolling...
[–]Fat-Elvis 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
As an example of how blissfully ignorant I was, I didn't even notice this was /r/atheism.
-3720 is pretty impressive. Is there a record?
[–]Darth_Hobbes -24 points-23 points-22 points 8 months ago
That's it guys, downvote the person you disagree with. I can't imagine why people would call us a circlejerk.
[–]Cielys 19 points20 points21 points 8 months ago
He's a known troll.
[–]Darth_Hobbes 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
Ah. I'd better tag him.
[–]Drakonisch 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
You sure got a lot of downvotes just for not knowing he's a troll. Here, take an upvote, and my condolences.
[–]chenhsi -7 points-6 points-5 points 8 months ago
Isn't that what the purpose of a downvote is? You downvote things you dislike or disagree with?
[–]Darth_Hobbes 8 points9 points10 points 8 months ago
"Please Don't ...Downvote opinions just because you disagree with them."
Wait, so ten people disagreed with you when you said you thought downvotes were used to indicate disagreement... so they downvoted you...
[–]churmpy -5 points-4 points-3 points 8 months ago
shut up and fuck off.
[–]thrillreefer -4 points-3 points-2 points 8 months ago
What about the faith-based decision to believe in no God?
[–]opinionated_comment 44 points45 points46 points 8 months ago
I don't see a difference between the tw- ohhhhhhhh
[–]rathum2323 9 points10 points11 points 8 months ago
my sentiments exactly.
[–]Archaneus 8 points9 points10 points 8 months ago
Anyone want to turn this into a well-designed background image? Google does not possess one, it seems.
[–]Markles 8 points9 points10 points 8 months ago
Here you go. In the classic Reddit Quote style.
http://i.imgur.com/JfGJu.jpg
[–]abbiistabbii 25 points26 points27 points 8 months ago
Quickly done, but I hope it nice enough.
[–]TheSeparateFirst 11 points12 points13 points 8 months ago
Upvote for ponies.
[–]Joe_Kerr 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Taken from my favorite episode at that. Someone give that guy an internet.
[–]Archaneus 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
I suppose I really should have expected that.
[–]ijoinedforthis 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago*
I'm genuinely curious as to why you think you should have expected that.
Edit: How's this?
Way to troll with the horrible line breaks, bro.
[–]drewbug 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I second this request.
[–]Vee_Vee 17 points18 points19 points 8 months ago
Scumbag atheist: calls "logic," "uncanny."
[–]Cheeseducksg 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 8 months ago
noun : seeming to have a supernatural character or origin : eerie, mysterious
lol'd.
[–]ZeroError 16 points17 points18 points 8 months ago
A noun? Is it not an adjective? o.O
[–]pianobadger 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
I've got your 'uncanny' right here.
That's an uncanny.
[–]paolog 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Maybe AndyTran was thinking of this.
[–]Fat-Elvis 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
It ain't uncanny unless it's got some crazy weather bitch with a mohawk and some dark phoenix shit going on.
[–]wayndom 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
Reminds me of an old Soviet joke:
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
Under capitalism, man exploits man.
Under communism, it's just the opposite.
[–]inikul 7 points8 points9 points 8 months ago
B-but he said the same thing
[–]DaPurpleCobra 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
my exact reaction
[–][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 8 months ago
Breaking News: Louis C.K. is insane according to this quote.
[–]megabiceps 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
you are just as bad as any religious person in that:
We're all insane in some way or other. We're human beings, not rational constructs.
[–]megabiceps 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
true, insanity is relative
Oh, you know my mother in law!
[–]CopaceticMan 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I lol'd!
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
What did I say that wasn't to your liking?
[–]megabiceps 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Sorry it does seem a bit harsher then I meant it to be but, I assume you are talking about where he says he's not an atheist in his AMA. But then he goes on to say:
well i don't "Believe in god" i have zero idea how everythign got here. I would personally say that, if i had to make a list of possibles, god would be pretty far down. But if I were to make a list of people that know what the fuck they are talking about, I would be REALLY far down. aids.
So if you are saying he's insane because of this, I would have to assume it's because he isn't a strong atheist. The ironic part is to be a strong atheist you have to have more faith then Louis does, and thus, by your statement, making them insane.
As for point number 2, I viewed breaking news as sensationalistic. Maybe that's not how you meant it but that's how it came off, at least to me, feel free to correct.
[–]LiveOnSteak 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
There isn't any faith necessary to be a strong atheist. There is no evidence for gods, therefore there is no evidence for a strong atheist's "beliefs" to be incompatible with. Strong or gnostic atheism does not mean closing your mind entirely off to the possibility of there maybe being evidence of super-powerful entities capable of god-like actions.
Wrong. You still BELIEVE that there is no god(s), therefore faith.
Faith is confidence or trust in a person or thing, or a belief that is not based on proof
Just because your belief isn't incompatible with evidence doesn't mean it's true. It's the same as a christian saying creation theory isn't incompatible with evolution, so no faith necessary.
[–]Keisaku 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Semantics. Keep working with it if it makes you feel good.
You are completely mixing up what you believe with an idea where we somehow got assimilated by your people (are told about this at a young age) and are now running away from it- Then invoking some god awful Mathz skillz in algorithm twistyness to now tell us we believe in something else.
Stop it. Just stop. Jeesus fucking christ. Get a room (with you're choice of deity.)
Oh, I love how you're really really trying to use logic to not only rebut logical folks but logically assume you're theist standing is logical. Brilliant.
Yo dawg.
Semantics
You mean correct definition?
your people
Who are "my people"?
god awful math skills
By math skills do you mean a logical argument?
you're theist
Where do I say I'm a theist? And it doesn't matter whether I'm a theist or not. I'm not rebutting logical folks, I'm rebutting people like you.
Seriously every statement you made either makes a wrong assumption or is just flat out wrong. Just because you don't understand a concept, or because you don't want to take the time to understand correct definitions and principles doesn't make it wrong. You are a shinning example of how many strong atheists (capital A) are still not far from strong theists in terms of faith and thought process.
Maybe try thinking for yourself instead of blindly following what the cool kids do.
I can't find my comment your posting too. I looked in the main thread and it's not there.
But reading your last sentence I think we can agree to disagree. That's a very interesting phrase and I think we ought to end it there.
[–]LiveOnSteak 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
You still BELIEVE that there is no god(s), therefore faith.
Wrong. I have come to the conclusion based on the lack of evidence that there are no gods. Science does not require belief, and admitting to a lack of evidence does not require faith.
Just because your belief isn't incompatible with evidence doesn't mean it's true
Read my comment again.
there is no evidence for a strong atheist's "beliefs" to be incompatible with
The subject of god is not yet in the realm of sciences we can perceive. Admitting lack of evidence is fine, but it doesn't prove anything.
Let me put it this way. You can either:
Claim to KNOW there is no god. This does not require faith, but I would be interested to hear a logical argument for this.
Not believe in god. This does not require faith.
Believe that there is no god. Lack of evidence is not justification. This requires faith.
I claim to know that there are no gods. I would agree with you that if a god exists, it is outside the realm of science. That is actually the basis for my reasoning. I place the question of a god's existence in the same realm as the "brain in a vat" thought experiment. A god could exist, or we could be brains in vats, but all of our senses and thinking indicates that this reality is real, and that it is the only reality. Therefore anything outside our reality is irrelevant. Furthermore, there is no reason to believe in an entity which has no effect on our reality. If an entity outside our reality was capable of affecting our reality, we would be able to detect it, making it part of our reality.
I realize my reasoning is not perfect, and by no means am I representative of the majority of atheists. The above argument is actually only a small part of why I call myself a gnostic atheist. Since the atheist movement is in its infancy (in the US at least) I consider it more helpful to the cause to appear firm in my unbelief, even if among other atheists I will admit that knowing 100% is not possible. Also it is helpful, especially among my family, to appear certain, as many fundamentalists have trouble seeing shades of gray.
[–]BLiPstir 10 points11 points12 points 8 months ago*
Except that faith doesn't necessitate incompatibility with evidence, so this point is moot. For example, I can have faith that the Packers will win their next football game, and it is probably going to happen. Faith only necessitates something that you cannot know 100%, not something contrary to the evidence. Downvote away!
Edit: spelling
[–]doom_blade 15 points16 points17 points 8 months ago
I can have faith that the Packers will win their next football game
This depends of on how you define faith. When I see your example, I see a hypothesis based on the fact that they so far have an undefeated season, just destroyed a team, scoring, I believe 31+ points in the first half and have one of the best offenses in the NFL. Not to mention, their next game is against the Chiefs, a 5-8 team. Therefore, your conclusion is based on fact and can then be referred to as a hypothesis. Edit: formatting
[–]Scaryclouds 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Hey fuck you! The Chiefs are going to destroy the Packers! We are only lulling the Packers into a false since of confidence by showing a complete lack of competence against the Jets.
Palko is going to light some shit up against the Packers! If Clay Matthews tries to sack him, Palko is going Burt Reynolds that sorry ass Fabio wannabe.
[–]BLiPstir 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Well put; I would tend to agree, but it gets very semantic. While calling it a hypothesis is definitely correct, you would hard pressed to say that it doesn't require an element of faith, as the outcome is truly unknown.
[–]Vibster 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
Every outcome is truly unknown. I wouldn't say, 'I have faith in gravity to pull me towards the center of the Earth', because I can't be certain it will. I could fly off into space at any moment.
[–]Ixius 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
If you said, "I believe that the Packers will win, and there is no other possible outcome," I'd agree with you that you require the OP's quote's definition of faith. I'm going to guess that's not the position you'd hold, though.
Most Packers fans would probably phrase it like this: "I believe the Packers will win (because X, Y, and Z, if asked to explain), but it is possible they may not." We enter the realm of probability with some real factors, which (and I agree with doom_blade) makes your statement one of hypotheticals rather than a faith-based claim. When a statement is testable, it no longer relies solely on "faith".
[–]Ixius 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
The difference is that you could argue that your faith in the upcoming success of the Packers is reasonably held: you could show how well they've been performing or training, for example, or point out that their opponents' star player has been put out of action. You still have no real way to know the outcome of the game, but you can use some form of reason or evidence to indicate your faith in them isn't irrational.
I guess the problem we run into is that nobody seems to be able to agree on the definition of "faith" - this quote addresses faith held by the religious in their religion, which by and large seems to make it accurate. We have no examples of genuine evidence or reason that they may be able to present to show that their faith is "reasonable faith", as you can for your faith in the Packers.
Yeah, this was clearly about capital-F Faith.
[–]churmpy 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
that example of faith is just weighted probabilities. something likely to happen based on past experience and only a finite number of outcomes that are clearly defined beforehand. there is no "unknowns" in that model. rubbish example.
most faiths have some nonsense in them that are contradictory to evidence. so yes it does necessitate it.
[–]kagayaki 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Who seriously says "I have faith that x team is going to win the game" though?
You may say you hope X team wins (even this is not faith the same way religion requires faith), but normally the only time I hear someone say "I think/have faith that X is going to win" is because during the season they've had a better record than the team they're facing. This is different from having faith in a god which has no evidence beyond personal experience and anecdotal evidence, you have verifiable history to base your prediction on whether or not the team you're rooting for is going to win. Heck, even science works the same way -- theories predict what will happen even though no theory has true 100% accurate predictability.
Even if you do not know whether or not X is going to happen, you're still saying X is going to happen based on previous evidence. Not that different from saying that "based on finger prints on the weapon and blood under the defendant's finger nails that matches the victim's." We can't say for sure whether or not the defendant is guilty, but I imagine based on that evidence, most juries would convict the defendant.
tldr; saying you have faith in a deity has much different connotations than saying you have faith in anything else.
[–]capgras_delusion 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Completely right. Faith would be the belief that the Packers will win next week before the game happens. Insanity would be the belief the Colts have won all their games this year, despite watching ESPN, looking at the newspaper, and watching the games (actually, that might just be denial, 0-13 is pretty miserable).
Sorry, I couldn't here you over the sanctimonious bullshit.
If you truly had faith you'd believe the Colts are going to win the Superbowl- Put all your money/house/car/wife into that bet and resign yourself to a monastery for the rest of your life regardless if they won or not. The thing is you used logic as the basis of your argument- Why else would you pick the Packers to begin your faithful trek?
Anyone can have faith in a white surfer dude with a beard and a robe- Try having faith in something unpopular.
That's faith- because in the end your faith stands and you live your life still betting on that team.
How did Jesus get so fucking white anyways?
[–]foot-long 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Nythology.
[–]RedVillian 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I read it as πythology. For anyone with a font that looks as bad as mine "π" is supposed to be Pi
[–]GMLW 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Hey... wait a minute...
...
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
[–]monkyjojo234[S] 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I would like to point out, for all of you that have asked about why it isn't "inside the lines", that it's not on paper. That is a wall.
[–]allensmoker 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
so was it the faith that made him not stay inside the margin of the paper?
[–]unicornsoccur 11 points12 points13 points 8 months ago
No, that appears to be a minor side effect of getting an art degree
[–]Archaneus 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I'm fairly sure that's a wall with a crack in it, not paper.
[–]ronbreddit 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
Complete with a perfectly cited source!
Bravo my friend.
[–]monkyjojo234[S] 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
I paid well attention in english
[–]holy_holy_holy 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Great quote
[–]ceeeh 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
faith isn't necessarily 'incompatible with the evidence' given different perspectives on what is evident.
Probably would have been better to use "regardless of the evidence" instead of "incompatible with."
But it's saying that most sane people or people who don't have faith would abandon a belief if it was incompatible with reality, whereas insane/faithful people hold onto a belief regardless of the evidence.
[–]Atheistus 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
TL:DR.
[–]jeblis 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Anyone else bothered by the poor line breaks of the writer?
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
THOSE TWO ARE THE SAME DAMN THING!
[–]rahtin 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I think that defintion also works for stupidity.
"All these people are smiling being nice to me, and they're all telling me that giving my money to the church is a good idea, so that must be the right decision to make!"
[–]ChangeTheBuket 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
...that is incompatible with evidence...
Not necessarily, no.
[–]Fat-Elvis 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Weird choice of word "ability."
I'd rewrite it as "the practice of" both times, because it's a choice, people.
[–]dc_bryan 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
that my phriends is a conundrum. bum bum bum
[–]keeblur 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Is that Mythology, because that M sure looks like an N.
you could have just typed it out if you thought it was important
[–]GhostGoku 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
May the great vengeful flying lizard who hath created all man punish you for your mockery of his faithful. If believing in a flying lizard that created man in 4 days 200 years ago is insanity then how do you explain all the good deeds in the world?? Something to think about....
[–]MrAbobu 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
What happened to all of the cans?
[–]Odusei[] 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
So what would you call the ability to hold firmly to a conclusion despite there being no evidence either way, or only inconclusive evidence? The belief in intelligent life on other planets, for example.
The real mystery of this image is what that weird brown is overlaying the white board (maybe wall?) and picture taped below the quote...
At first I thought the text was poorly shopped to look like it was on a white board, but now I'm just confused...
[–]platypusmusic 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
The difference is insanity holds firmly to a conclusion that is imcompatible with the society.
i wish my handwriting looked like that, goddammiii...SCIENCE DAMMITTT
[–]cyrusmandrake 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I love it.
everyone has faith. in the end, we know nothing, and all knowledge is technically "insanity."
[–]stackered 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Nah this is wrong... (religious) faith is a belief in a supreme being but I disagree with this definition of insanity. I have goals/aspirations in my life that may seem impossible when analyzing the evidence but with IMAGINATION (Spongebob voice) I make it a reality and keep myself driven.
[–]cypocryphy 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Ctrl c/ Crtl v, has been thwarted, now i must type... damn.
[–]whiteknight521 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Everyone has the ability to believe something contrary to evidence, I think it should read "faith is the act..."
[–]Fascinatingnewthing 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I was like "aha makes sense" ... 30 seconds later "wait a second!". ~Reads it again~ "I see what you did there."
[–]CharityTroll -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
No, insanity is denying God and sending yourself on a one way trip to hell.
I really hoped that link was to lemonparty
[–]wayndom -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
Reminds me of an old joke from the Soviet Union:
Under capitalism, man exploits his fellow man.
[–]idma -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
fuck you christians
u mad bro?
[–]CharityTroll -4 points-3 points-2 points 8 months ago
[–]giddyup21 -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
Oh I see what you did here
[–]vanillaafro -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 months ago
without knowing how crazy or how much they believe in God...Who would you rather have watch your kids, a crazy atheist person or someone that believes in God?
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
[–]OnlyChobo 98 points99 points100 points ago
[–]JediApprentice 9 points10 points11 points ago
[–][deleted] ago
[–]fencerJP 24 points25 points26 points ago
[–]Fat-Elvis 8 points9 points10 points ago
[–]Drakonisch 7 points8 points9 points ago
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]Fat-Elvis 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]thrillreefer -4 points-3 points-2 points ago
[–]opinionated_comment 44 points45 points46 points ago
[–]rathum2323 9 points10 points11 points ago
[–]Archaneus 8 points9 points10 points ago
[–]Markles 8 points9 points10 points ago
[–]abbiistabbii 25 points26 points27 points ago
[–]TheSeparateFirst 11 points12 points13 points ago
[–]Joe_Kerr 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Archaneus 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]ijoinedforthis 1 point2 points3 points ago*
[–]Fat-Elvis 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]drewbug 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Vee_Vee 17 points18 points19 points ago
[–]Cheeseducksg 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points ago
[–]ZeroError 16 points17 points18 points ago
[–]pianobadger 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]paolog 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Fat-Elvis 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]wayndom 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]inikul 7 points8 points9 points ago
[–]DaPurpleCobra 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]BLiPstir 10 points11 points12 points ago*
[–]doom_blade 15 points16 points17 points ago
[–]Scaryclouds 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]BLiPstir 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Vibster 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]Ixius 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Ixius 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]Fat-Elvis 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]churmpy 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]kagayaki 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]capgras_delusion 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Keisaku 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]foot-long 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]RedVillian 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]GMLW 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]monkyjojo234[S] 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]allensmoker 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]unicornsoccur 11 points12 points13 points ago
[–]Archaneus 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]ronbreddit 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]monkyjojo234[S] 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]holy_holy_holy 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]ceeeh 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]kagayaki 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Atheistus 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]jeblis 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]rahtin 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]ChangeTheBuket 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Fat-Elvis 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]dc_bryan 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]keeblur 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]GhostGoku 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]MrAbobu 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Odusei[
] 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]RedVillian 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]platypusmusic 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]cyrusmandrake 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]stackered 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]cypocryphy 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]whiteknight521 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Fascinatingnewthing 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]CharityTroll -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]RedVillian 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]wayndom -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]idma -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]BLiPstir 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]CharityTroll -4 points-3 points-2 points ago
[–]giddyup21 -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]vanillaafro -3 points-2 points-1 points ago