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Twainianity (images.elephantjournal.com)
submitted 9 months ago by Guessquire
[–]failcheck 91 points92 points93 points 9 months ago
"But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most, our one fellow and brother who most needed a friend yet had not a single one, the one sinner among us all who had the highest and clearest right to every Christian's daily and nightly prayers, for the plain and unassailable reason that his was the first and greatest need, he being among sinners the supremest?" -- Full quote, in case anyone wants the rest of it.
[–][deleted] 29 points30 points31 points 9 months ago
our one fellow and brother who most needed a friend
I feel bad for him...
I'LL BE YOUR FRIEND STAN!
[–]prose-before-hoes 7 points8 points9 points 9 months ago
Ever read Paradise Lost? Satan's just misunderstood.
[–]AsAChemicalEngineer 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Paradise Lost is an extremely difficult book to read, not bad, just difficult.
[–]prose-before-hoes 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I know. I couldn't finish it.
[–]DreadPosterRoberts 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
It's the kind of book that is written so densely and so long ago that you will probably have a better experience by just reading the wikipedia summary and modern critical analysis. Save you some time and a bunch of frustrated reading sessions.
[–]Icsifil 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
It's funny because even Milton misunderstands Satan.
[–]couchiexperience 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
When I believed in God, I used to pray for Satan every night. I don't believe in God anymore, but I still feel sorry for Satan.
[–]Sdingel 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I prayed for Jim as a kid once or twice. I feel sorry for people captured and tormented by the belief of Satan.
[–]Alreadyhaveone 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I spent awhile trying to remember who jim was from sunday school......
[–]Sdingel 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Ha ha ha, what a typo, obviously you already figured out I meant him not jim. Jim is gods casual name
[–]couchiexperience 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I had no idea what you were talking about.
Sorry about that.
[–]couchiexperience 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
No need to apologize, have a great day!
[–]micphi 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
This quote reminds me of Victor Hugo's "Et Nox Facta Est". When I read it, it was the first time I ever really pondered the humanity of Satan in the Abrahamic mythology.
[–]yesisright 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
That's a misconception. No where in the bible does it say you should pray for people in hell. God has forgotten them. At least that's what I thought, right?
[–]failcheck -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
I'm not a Christian, so I have no idea. I just love the quote because we should always help those who need it most. Because, if we don't try and save Satan, who will? It would take an incredible person to believe Satan can be saved, and I think that's what this quote means. People can call themselves Christians and preach what they want, but it takes a strong will and a decent heart to try and change that which cannot be changed, religious or not.
[–]James-Cizuz 49 points50 points51 points 9 months ago
This is still the most disturbing thing i've ever seen. I love it.
[–]Kowzorz 18 points19 points20 points 9 months ago
"Nevermind them. People are of no value. We can make more sometime if we need them."
It really goes to show the nature of our reality. We, as experiencing beings evolved to feel empathy because it's advantageous to our survival, feeling for other intelligent beings who succumb to death. Would an intelligent being who has no need for such empathy feel the same way as us? All that we are are interacting quarks which produce interacting subatomic particles which produce interacting molecules when produce interacting cells, some of which are neurons which produce empathy, among other things. Who's to say that last step is skipped and a more "perfect" being is created.
What gives us value? Is it that we feel empathy? Suffering? Love? Hate? Why do we consider ourselves so much better than the cow slain for our hamburger dinner?
[–]CowboyBoats 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
Would an intelligent being who has no need for such empathy feel the same way as us?
I have a religious friend who always likes to argue that an objective morality is built into the universe, so it must have come from God. He imagines that if we found a sufficiently advanced alien species, it would be sure to have discovered basic principles of mathematics, and likewise it would certainly have a moral system, and probably some understanding of God.
I replied, your alien species is a classic No True Scotsman, because it can never be falsified: even if I did find an alien species with no concept of morality, you would simply dismiss them as insufficiently advanced. But I can think of several species that can reason, but that have not evolved any moral systems to go with there intelligence. Here is one.
[–]Variance_on_Reddit 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
What gives us value?
Elezier Yudkowsky studies the philosophy of artificial intelligence and its decision-making, which is a good example of your more "perfect being"; and an imperviously inevitable one as well. A lot of what he does revolves specifically around trying to make it so that hyper-intelligent beings don't automatically crush all of humanity with their birth cries.
[–]Kowzorz 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
As a computer scientist, this is highly relevant to my interests. Thank you for those links. I'd love to spark a discussion here as well, so please mention anything you have problems with or that sparks your interests.
[–]Variance_on_Reddit 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
Yudkowsky can communicate on these ideas better than I can, so the best I can do is recommend anything by him, and particularly the site he runs on rationality, LessWrong.
[–]typicalharu 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
He also has a fantastic piece of gasp Harry Potter fanfiction. The only one that ever was so tolerable http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality I think it's his way of introducing his ideas in a more publicly available manner.
[–]Variance_on_Reddit 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Elezier is a good writer, but just an okay storyteller. I couldn't make it through the dozen-chapter-long sequence of Harry infiltrating Azkaban when I originally read it, and it doesn't look like he's made that many chapters since. But the concept of the story is great, and makes the non-sequency parts fun.
[–]mirex0_0 8 points9 points10 points 9 months ago
Well that was...
[–]JediFish 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
Can someone explain what I just watched?
[–]Ark6476 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
The Mysterious Stranger by Mark Twain
[–]Richas 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
http://i.imgur.com/a8eeZ.jpg
What bothered me the most about this video is how similar my beliefs are to Satan's. I thought of this when one day the world was mourning Princess Diana's death. She seemed so important to so many people that she's never met, but no one mourns for the slaughtered cows that unwillingly provide for us. The world doesn't stop when a baby calf is slashed to ribbons just for its tender meat. I saw the world in gloom over a single, unimportant human and it irritated me. The idea of life and its value are abstract ideas, i feel we're nothing more than biological commodities.
Maybe this is why my friend says I'm too "extreme"? That or I drink Mountain Dew a lot.
[–]JetTiger 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago*
Some people above mentioned Paradise Lost, and how Satan is depicted there [at first] as a tragic hero of sorts.
He is intentionally portrayed in such a way that the reader will feel sympathy for him, and when Satan explains why he rebels from God, the reader is meant to actually side with him. It is only later that Satan's true nature is shown, and everything he says, including his noble reasons for rebelling against God are lies. Relevant to your point however is that those reasons, even though lies, convince 1/3 of Heaven to rebel against God (a case of Straw-Man Has a Point, I suppose).
I bring this up because what you said about how your beliefs are in line with his is exactly how many well-known and respected literary critics feel about Satan (as portrayed in Paradise Lost), among them Percy Bysshe Shelley and William Blake (a popular notion is that Satan is the unintended hero of Paradise Lost, and makes the reading for an atheist such as myself much more interesting on another level).
It is notable because the same things that Satan supposedly rebels against God for are ideals (he mentions egalitarianism, freedom from a tyrannical ruler among them) that most reasonable people would share.
It's not surprising then that people feel sympathy for the devil.
Satan makes many observations on the human race that secular people outside of the Christian morality system would likely agree with. Among them, a rejection of blind faith, a trait absolutely despised by Satan
Speaking about Adam and Eve after observing them in the Garden of Eden:
do they only stand By ingorance, is that their happy state, The proof of their obedicne and their faith?
do they only stand
By ingorance, is that their happy state,
The proof of their obedicne and their faith?
Point is, Satan's morality can be seen, even when he is purposely portrayed as a villain, as being superior to that of God's in the Bible (hence why the GGLucifer Meme exists, and a general argument against God's benevolence).
Edit: Wow, that was a really long-winded way of saying, "I know that feel bro." Then again, I am putting off a 7 page paper on Paradise Lost (figures that it would come up on /r atheism after weeks of not seeing a single reference to it).
[–]Richas 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
That long winded was awesome lol Thanks for taking the time to write that :)
[–]Irongrip 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
You have convinced me to finally sit down and read Paradise Lost. I've also saved your comment in case I forget about this.
[–]gatz -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 months ago
Uh, a human life in infinitely more important than an animal's life. How could you equate a cow to a human being?
[–]Hadrieldragoon 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
What makes it more important? It is easy to equate one animal to another and we do it all the time, cats and dogs are more important than fish and spiders because we empathize with them and make them our pets. Your perspective lacks objectivity.
[–]DrMerkwurdigliebe 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
How do you define "important"?
If, in some hypothetical scenario, I had to choose between saving the life of some random cow and some random human stranger, I would save the human, without hesitation.
But there would also be no hesitation on my part if it were a choice between saving MY dog, and, say for instance the guy who was sentenced to death earlier this week for his role in the home invasion, rape, and murders of the mom and her two daughters in Connecticut. Human though he may be, I'm saving my dog.
In other words, I DON'T subscribe to the notion that ANY human life is automatically more "important" than that of any animal's life.
Why is it more important?
[–]frodevil 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Anyone else noticed all the comments for that video are written by meme abusing preteens? Weird.
[–]pmac135 17 points18 points19 points 9 months ago
have you never been on youtube before...?
[–]solidpit 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
So.... redditors?
[–]onemadnigga 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I didn't want to go bed anyways...
[–]ziltiod94 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I watched that entire thing! It is so great.
[–]wabudd1 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Thank you for that... this might be the most insane thing I've ever seen.
[–]Say_Ocean 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
You should post that to its own link
[–]Tendow 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Thank you so much for reminding me of this⸮
[–]kaytango 30 points31 points32 points 9 months ago
I did once, when I was 5-ish.
But I also pledged my allegiance to him later if he'd get me a kitten for Christmas. I was a silly child.
[–]Sentient545 11 points12 points13 points 9 months ago
You know I just remembered, I promised to pledge allegiance to Satan in like 4th grade if he would start my music teacher on fire...he didn't hold up on his side of the bargain.
...her and her goddamned recorders.
[–]ConstipatedNinja 7 points8 points9 points 9 months ago
Fucking FUCK those goddamned recorders. They were 5th grade for me.
[–]Kowzorz 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
Short of a piano, they're probably the best music instrument to learn music on. Pitches are related to the number of fingers over holes. Very intuitive.
[–]ConstipatedNinja 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
Yes, but the forced learning of it sapped me of any will to learn any instrument for years. It took me forever to pick up the guitar that I now love.
[–]Takoulya 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Story of my life, really.
[–]ConstipatedNinja 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Tell me about it. I remember taking a test in 1st grade that put my reading level at post-high-school. I had to read fucking Moby Dick in the first grade for an assignment because it was the only book in the library at my reading level. I've read hundreds and hundreds of books, but I didn't read much at all from 1st grade til about the 10th grade when I had a really good english teacher help me get back into reading.
[–]inmatesmurf 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
i had kinda the same thing didnt start reading until senior year in HS. But Moby Dick that musta been hell in 1st grade lol.
[–]ConstipatedNinja 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
It really was. To add insult to injury, my senior year AP English class read Moby Dick. I quote it constantly and without meaning to.
What remorseless emperor commands me!?
you know it is my favorite book now... i didn't have to pour through it at your age though... when I think of reading greek mythology now I shudder though.
[–]ThroughDiamondEyes 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
4th and 5th grade here. I hate the sounds those plastic pieces of shit made.
But I couldn't really hold a grudge against the music teacher because she would play the Harry Potter theme and other cool stuff on the xylophone.
[–]kaytango 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
He's waiting for when she dies.
[–]ProfessorD2 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I did too (the prayer for Satan part, not the allegiance part).
[–]Digimonisbetter 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I did as well, pared for Judas, Pontius Pilot, ad Sudam Hussei too. No Stan worshipping her though... :( I could've had a cat huh....
[–]zdayatk 15 points16 points17 points 9 months ago
I like Mark Twain
[–][deleted] 9 months ago*
[deleted]
[–]ProfessorD2 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
What did he contribute to mathematics or science?
I don't know very much about him but that surprised me to hear. Wikipedia was no help finding what you meant :(
[–]m741 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
None of what he said is true.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I don't recall Mark Twain being a tall-standing figure in terms of the development of mathematics and science... He was a writer and humorist.
He did, however, have a close friendship with Nikola Tesla, and I think you may be getting a little mixed up between the two people.
[–]cjc813 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
I did, as a child. No joke.
[–]ProfessorD2 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Just in this thread several of us have expressed memories of doing this. Maybe things were different during Twain's time; or maybe he didn't understand the religious mind and habits as well as he'd like to criticize them.
[–]cjc813 -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
I'm pretty sure my inclination toward compassion and understanding had more to do with it than my religious mind.
Maybe this is same for the others as well?
It would be rather ironic if I criticized Twain for assuming too much about other people's private thoughts and motives, only to turn around and entertain similar speculation.
I'll pass ;)
[–]eriotak 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
Mark Twain was really progressive in his views, he had a few really good quotes on on censorship and on experimenting with one's body.
"Whose property is my body? Probably mine. I so regard it. If I experiment with it, who must be answerable? I, not the State. If I choose injudiciously, does the State die? Oh, no."
“Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it.”
[–]Suitecake 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
I did, when I was a young and a Christian. My Sunday School teacher rooted that shit out real quick.
[–]Agroking 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I perform in a black metal band. My religious grandparents were horrified when they found out, and sent me to a few sunday school sessions. I gave that teacher hell.
[–]CoolStoryClub 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
I'm Christian and when I was a kid I know I have.
[–]Spec_Laconic 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
I know no one will probably see this, since this is already on the front page, but screw it, I'm going to post this anyway.
Twain wrote a series of short stories from the POV of Satan on earth, and it's really freaking good.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/twainlfe.htm
[–]Antlered 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I love you for posting this.
[–]Deggit 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
This and "The Damned Human Race" are some of the best things anyone has ever written about God... ever.
[–]sirbruce 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
"I'm here on the ground with my nose in it since the whole thing began. I've nurtured every sensation man's been inspired to have. I cared about what he wanted and I never judged him. Why? Because I never rejected him. In spite of all his imperfections, I'm a fan of man! I'm a humanist. Maybe the last humanist." - John Milton, aka Satan, The Devil's Advocate
[–]zalecot 9 points10 points11 points 9 months ago*
I know this is a repost, because I made that image myself and posted it a few months ago and got a few hundred up votes.
I now understand why people don't like others reposting their images.
Edit: Here is a link to the post http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/k8dud/who_indeed/
[–]ContraPositive 7 points8 points9 points 9 months ago
Why not take pride in the fact that someone liked what you made enough to post it again?
[–]Pullmylightus 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
If you didn't want someone else posting the awesome content you made you should have been reposting it yourself until it ran out of karma. Once the image is in the public domain, not only can a person repost it, but they almost have an obligation to to make sure as many people see it as possible. You dropped this one, and it looks like Guessquire took up the flame.
[–]arbores -7 points-6 points-5 points 9 months ago
downvoted for trying to get upvotes
[–]AdrianBrony 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
About 2 years ago, I began to wonder if Satan would be saved if he genuinely repented and asked for forgiveness. That was probably the first thought that started a string of thoughts leading me to deconverting.
[–]irrelevant_thoughts 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
If Twain was alive, would he nag about his quote being reposted by someone else?
[–]AeliSupernova 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
When I was very young, probably around five, I did pray to Satan. I was at my Meema's house. My grandparents are good people, deep Christians and very in love with their faith. That day I had asked about Satan, and how he had come to be there in the first place. My Meema told me that he used to be an angel and he and god got into an argument and god banished him to hell.
That night, I prayed to both God and Satan. I asked them to work out their differences and forgive each other, and maybe be friends again like they used to. No one likes being mad at each other, and I thought that if they could just get along, no one would have to go to hell. We could all be happy together in heaven.
I told my Meema the next morning and she was completely horrified. I got put into time out for that one. =/
[–]dumnezero 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I think he's asking for Some Clemency
[–]nombre44 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Made my day, sir. That is all.
[–][deleted] 9 months ago
[–]zdayatk 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
It's a question, not an argument. So I think there is no counter-argument to this.
[–]mathgod 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I prayed for him back when I was a Christian. Of course, that's all behind me as of the age when I was given the choice.
[–]alexthehut 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I used this in my 11th grade ap English paper some years ago. It crushed. 105%.
[–]Sdingel 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I love Twainisms.
I think that would have something to do with such a prayer being meaningless, as his fate is already sealed.
[–]NoticesIrony 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I love how thought provoking this man's words can be. I never considered this and yet it is a truth that any Christian I know would damn the devil before considering following the 'love thy neighbour' approach. I deeply admire his well-written, well-thought points.
[–]UnderTruth 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
But some of the Church Fathers and others did pray for the devil, and this seems to be what Love requires. I think an atheist who would pray for the devil if he thought such a being existed seems to have more compassion than a Christian who thinks he exists and doesn't care--and I would think God would want more of the former!
[–]Priestofdownvotes 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Not to be sarcastic, as I'm sure no one is actually asking. However, multiple early church fathers suggested that we should pray for the redemption and forgiveness of Satan.
I don't have the exact quotes in front of me, but I know Origen suggested it. I believe Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian suggested it as well.
[–]Sirdannykins 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
goosebumps! so good!
If you think it feels silly and useless praying for someone you know, apply that tenfold to praying for an imaginary bogyeman character. Even a lot of Christians probably get that feeling, admit it or not.
[–]nombre44 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Twain's religious evolution is fascinating, and central to my own rejection of religion. I grew up in a fundamentalist, evangelical Christian household and attended a private, not specifically religious (though it was generally assumed that all students were from the same background) school.
I did a book report on Huckleberry Finn and fell in love. I read everything I could find by and about him. By the time I got to Number 44, the seeds of doubt were planted. Eventually, they bore fruit.
I owe so much of who I am to that man, but most of it isn't relevant to r/atheism, so I'll skip to the end and leave you with some of my favorite Twain Quotes about religion:
"I have long ago lost my belief in immortality---also, my interest in it."
At the end of a long list of the virtues of Bermuda, "...no follies but church, and I don't go there."
"Heaven for climate, hell for company."
"Let us swear while we may, for in heaven it will not be allowed."
"All right, then, I'll go to hell."
I've already gone on for too long, but I will submit that an atheist will find Mark Twain to be as good a friend as Darwin or Dawkins or Harris or Hitchens, and certainly funnier.
[–]BlackPride 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
What does this have to do with Atheism?
It's the sort of question that has helped a lot of people begin to question what it is they believe, and why. Remember, not everyone that views (or even subscribes) to r/atheism is already an atheist.
The questions matter. (See above.)
[–]Bronystopheles 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Actually, when I was a little kid, and Catholic, I did pray for Satan. It was almost unbearable for me to think about his suffering. I guess I was destined to become an atheist from the beginning: empathy just comes automatically for me--and with excruciating intensity--which is why I can't stomach Christianity.
[–]masinmancy 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Please allow me to introduce myself .I'm a man of wealth and taste .
[–]The_Auryn 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Mind blown. I'm gonna ask my dad if he ever prays for Satan. He's a 'prayer warrior'.
[–]notsoeviltwin 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Why Christians don't pray for Satan? Because they believe that he is ultimately doomed and can never be forgiven. Revelations 20:7-10.
[–]TheSarahj 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
When I was a teen attending a Christian summer camp, a pop culture "seminar" they held encouraged us to pray for a ton of doomed sinners such as Marilyn Manson, Ozzy, Eminem, and Satan.
Just finished watching The Adventures of Mark Twain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzw589stLJ8) this morning and then saw this... God damn I love that movie.
[–]Unnecessary_Question -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 months ago
Who is that in the picture?
[–]heyiquit 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Didn't you read the god damned thing? That's Satan.
[–]OkayGuyGreg -20 points-19 points-18 points 9 months ago
Pray for satan? HA! Might as well sign your lease for 4 acres in the underworld. Satan chose his own path it was his own personal choice that landed him the proverbial "dog house" if you will. We, in this country, need to start taking back the value of individualism and personal responsibility if we ever want to make it as a nation. If you are down you need to look towards g0d, not shun him with your so called 'logic' and science. Twain knew this, which is why he was a highly religious person who is well known today as a Christian American Hero!
[–]CypherAlmasy 7 points8 points9 points 9 months ago
Poe's Law: Making it impossible to determine the appropriate way to reply to Reddit comments since 2005
[–]dank4tao 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
Trollolololol.
[–]OptiMystic 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
Not going to say anything about the comment you made as I'm not sure if troll or dumb. I will say though that you really like bolding certain words for no reason, as per comment history.
[–]UnicornsBeforeJesus 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Troll or not, you sir, should be neutered.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
uhhhhhhh
...I don't know if I should be laughing right now.
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
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