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Math Atheist (i.imgur.com)
submitted 9 months ago by Tiger337
[–]Spiderdan 72 points73 points74 points 9 months ago
I fucking love Calvin and Hobbes.
[–]jenkins567 26 points27 points28 points 9 months ago
This was my childhood. Now I go back and read them and there's so much more I understand.
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
Same here. They are much more profound than what I gave them credit for when I was 10.
[–]western_style_hj 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I just bought a house. Rest assured a Calvin and Hobbes mural will go up on a wall.
[–]jerbear1978 32 points33 points34 points 9 months ago
Two numbers go in, one number comes out. You can't explain that.
[–]invisibleninja7 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Beat me to it, I was going to say the same thing.
[–]Kafke 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I have an apple, and you have an apple. You give me your apple. I now have one apple and one apple. We define that in english as two apples. So one and one is two.
We use numbers and operators to shorten the wording and writing of this. But that is all we do when we use numbers.
Sorry to burst bubbles, but numbers exist no matter what you think.
[–]mrbrinks 11 points12 points13 points 9 months ago
It's hilarious especially when you realize actual people use this argument to justify a lot of terrible shit!
[–]deepwank 53 points54 points55 points 9 months ago
I think most people are missing Bill Watterson's hidden joke here. On the surface, it seems like Calvin doesn't understand math and therefore reduces it to a faith which he doesn't have. The deeper reading of this comic is that in a certain sense, there is a great deal of faith in mathematics, unlike observational sciences. We must have faith that our starting axioms are true in order to derive more true statements. Of course, what ends up happening is we get a mathematical system that makes sense and closely models what we see in the real world. But ultimately, it boils down to accepting an axiomatic system with total faith that it ought to be true. This is the genius of Watterson.
[–]absentbird 51 points52 points53 points 9 months ago
The thing is that math cannot be wrong as long as it adheres to it's internal structure because it is a created system to work on top of the observable universe.
The application of math can be incorrect but as long as you are only doing math as an exercise there is no faith needed. There is no way to show the math to be wrong because it does not exist beyond it's construct. We know math is not a perfect mirror of the observable world because we have constants that cannot be represented numerically.
At least that is my take on it.
[–]UncertainCat 11 points12 points13 points 9 months ago
Math isn't necessarily created to work on top of the observable universe. In mathematics you don't have to accept that an axiom is true, you just examine what it's truth implies. From there when you find a physical system that is consistent with the axioms you've examined, you can conclude behaviors from your theorems.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
It's simply not. People at reddit just like appending observable universe to stuff.
[–]mongojazZ 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
You completely missed the point observable universe.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
Whoa, I almost didn't take you seriously, but then something about your comment triggered immense respect!
[–]UncertainCat 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I think it's fair to say it often has been used for modeling observables. It's just a mistake to say it necessarily adheres to structure in the universe.
[–]absentbird 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Right, that is essentially what I meant. Thank you for clarifying.
[–][deleted] 9 months ago*
[deleted]
[–]cocorebop 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Math has nothing to do with belief. You don't need faith to know that the word purple is spelled P-U-R-P-L-E; it's true because we said it is. The same is true for mathematical axioms. We define them, and then they produce structures with properties we didn't define, which we can see plain and simple, and completely without faith.
So say I define a set, oh, the integers as we have defined them, and define an axiom, we'll say that 0*a = a*0 = 0 for any "a" in my set, where "*" is an otherwise undefined operation. Then is it true that 0*3 = 3*0 = 0? Yes, because I said so. That rule doesn't "exist" outside our minds; in fact, the idea of "0" is pretty abstract. I think most people just take math for granted and assume it always existed, and we just try to make discoveries. But no, we invented it, and in our axiomatic definitions it gains properties of it's own. Those are what we strive to discover.
[–]worldsayshi 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
That's for when math is purely a symbolic exercise. But what about when we try to apply it to the real world, making predictions and scientific theories? That's when math gain it's value no?
[–]cocorebop 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
No, math doesn't necessarily strive for real world value. The fact that it has so much real world value is mostly because we've structured the world to work well with our math.
So we didn't discover physics, we made it?
No, we just use mathematics to describe it.
But in the property of being able to describe reality observable phenomena lies the value of math.
You say no - but doing that while rephrasing the question. Math may not necessarily strive for real world value no but without finding real world value it is itself valueless. It needs to at least find enjoyment on behalf of the practitioner to exist or to have value. We do math because we find it valueable. Because it gives us something "in the real world".
You said specifically "But what about when we try to apply it to the real world, making predictions and scientific theories? That's when math gain it's value no?". I disagree with that statement. Math does not need to be a part of "real world" predictions or scientific theories to have value. I don't disagree that if math was in no way interesting or enjoyable it would lack value, and I understand that connection to the real world, but that's not what your original point was, which is what I was referring to with my boiled down use of "real world value". Sorry if that last sentence is hard to read.
What do you perceive as my original point then?
Also, I never said math has anything to do with belief.
This is a question that has popped up when discussing the reason behind that science is a "more valid" belief system.
That sentence was pretty unclear but it at least sounded like that's what you were saying. We were talking about math... if you weren't talking about math, you should have stated the less valid belief system is that you were referring to. nbd though
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
What constants?
[–]Fenris_uy 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
e, pi, sqrt(2)
[–]geronimo45 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
and i
[–]qwop271828 -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
Just because they can't be expressed using the symbols 0..9 doesn't mean they can't be completely expressed through the language of mathematics though. We just use different symbols.
[–]absentbird -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
As I understand it, there is no last digit to pi. If it cannot have a numerical representation outside of a symbol it would appear that a physical circle cannot be fully represented in math. We can work with a circle by using the constant for pi but pi cannot be fully numerically expressed; it is like a reference to something outside of the system.
[–]greiskul 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Well, I can write a program that writes down any number of digits of pi that I want. This program can be represented by a single integer number. Therefore, I can create a mapping of numbers that can be computed, to integers. In other words, this type of number (computable) is countable. The scary part of math is when you realize that there are numbers which cannot be expressed at all in any finite way. That's when shit gets REAL.
[–]absentbird 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Nice pun.
Math is incredibly practical in the natural world and the inability to completely render the entirety of an irrational number has no damaging impact on our lives. I was just trying to say that irrational numbers are evidence that there are things in the natural world that cannot simply be represented numerically. I am not an expert in the field of mathematics, that is why I prefaced it with "As far as I know".
[–]gaums 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
No.
Scroll all the way down this page. Look on the lower right hand corner. You will find your answer.
[–]smegul 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
TIL
Nice easter egg
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago*
C/d
I just represented by using 2 variables.
Or, more fancily.
(r=1, so r2 =1)
I used the wrong terms in my first post. I was trying to say that if math was a perfect system for describing the natural world there would not be irrational numbers.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Irrational numbers are problems with the notation that we use for math, not the math itself.
That was my point. I don't think I am expressing myself properly.
[–][deleted] 9 months ago
My entire point is that that is not a rational number. In fact even infinity cannot really be represented numerically. I don't understand why so many people have been pointing out different way to derive pi. All of them are dependent on externalizing part of the calculation to variables or other irrational numbers.
I don't see how stating that some numbers don't have a cut-and-dry base 10 manifestation has sparked such debate. I understand the usefulness of these numbers and I don't think any less of math because of it.
You haven't sparked a debate, you've sparked people into telling you why you're wrong. Pi has uncountably infinitely many representations that don't involve simply writing down the greek letter pi, each of which can be used to define or express pi precisely. Maths does not have a problem with irrational numbers and neither does the universe.
I think that I have a point but I am just not expressing it properly.
I mean that arithmetic such as the kind Calvin is talking about does not rely on faith because it is a system separate from reality that we use to abstract real systems so we can better understand them. My evidence for this is that when we have a thing in the natural world that cannot be expressed by a number we leave it as a constant to be derived instead of dictating a numerical value. If math took faith pi could be exactly 3; instead it depends on other elements in the natural world you are computing so it can be applied to any hypothetical instead of being strictly used to define 3 dimensional things on earth.
I don't know a lot of math terms; I could be wrong about everything, but I think that the logic for the argument is sound.
[–]jay-peg 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I think your explanation can be applied to religion as well.
[–]Thalfon 10 points11 points12 points 9 months ago
There are differences.
First, that math must be internally consistent. I don't think I need to argue to r/atheism about the inconsistencies in most religions! Math requires rigour that simply doesn't exist in religion.
Second, that pure math exists separate from the real world. There are a lot of things in math that would make utterly no sense in real-world applications, like infinite sums that can add up to any number you like just by changing the order you add the numbers, or splitting a perfect sphere into tiny pieces and building two more perfect spheres identical to the first. These make perfect sense in math, but not in reality. Hence when math is applied to reality, it is applied through the lens of science, using only those aspects of math that make sense for the situation. Not directly, verbatim, as religion often is.
One could think about religion in a purely hypothetical environment, and that would be closer to what math does, as long as one could maintain the internal consistency. This would probably contradict the real world at some point or another (unless it was a very light dose of religion, like deism), but from a purely hypothetical standpoint the model itself might remain internally consistent, which would be more like math. But due to the contradictions that would cause, it would not likely have many, if any, applications. (Applying such religion willy-nilly to the real world isn't likely to be much better than how Camping "applied" math to the real world to predict its end.)
All that said, I do think it's arguable that math isn't a science (it's certainly not a natural science). It's always an interesting topic of discussion as to whether it's more of an art or a science. (Some universities give it its own category, separate from both!)
[–]deepwank 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Very well said friend. Through the lens of science is key here. For instance, mathematics often makes use of infinity (there are different kinds!) but there is no observable instance of an infinite number of things in the universe. The same with the notion of a limit in calculus. However, these notions exist in pure math, and sometimes they are super useful when applied through the lens of science. Other times, they are not. I think math is so far from science (no experimental testing, no observable phenomena) that it's actually closer to religion. This notion is very controversial and I think this is what Watterson was getting at.
[–]Thalfon 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
I guess my problem there is that you're viewing religion as the polar opposite of science. I don't think that something is close to religion simply by being far from science. Novels are far from science, but neither are they (for the most part) anything like religion (although a few certain fan bases...).
Similarly, while math may not be a science, it is also nothing like religion. Religion is defined by things like blind faith, spirituality, belief in the supernatural, etc. Math is more like logic, dealing in the purely hypothetical. It requires no faith simply because every conclusion is preceded by an "if." If A is true then B is true. The only reason it lacks experimental testing because it only needs logical rigour; the only reason it lacks observable phenomena is because it's a purely mental exercise. Religion's lack of either is different, and more problematic, as it leads to false claims about the real world.
Religion is just one thing that is distant from science, and I would disagree that a concept being distant from science necessarily implies that it is similar to religion.
General relativity says there are infinities in nature - for example at the centre of a black hole.
[–]ocamlmycaml -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
Math requires rigour that simply doesn't exist in religion.
I'm not sure you can say that. Practicing theologians have been working on making religion rigorous and consistent for ages. Sure, most practitioners aren't at that level, but the same is true for mathematics.
I would suggest there are two differences:
First, if a math student follows the rules of math and comes to the correct answer without mistakes, then they have followed a rigorous method, and even if they do not know how it is rigorously proven, they can be confident that it has. If a religious person has a certain belief, they can make no such claim, because there are millions of little variants of belief, and there is almost no chance that their beliefs perfectly coincide with a particular set of beliefs that some theologian has constructed.
Second, have any of the theologians actually been successful? Remember, religion is inherently trying to talk about the real world. Sure, they could try to create an internally consistent religious model without worrying about reality, but that would basically just be writing a story, and it's doubtful that this is their goal. No, for a theologian to have a truly consistent model it must not only be internally consistent but also consistent with reality. Has a theologian ever made an argument so solid that ever other theologian nodded and said, "yes, this must be true."
A rigorous proof in math says "this must be true." It is more certain, more rigorous than even the hardest sciences, even if perhaps in a different manner. I do not think any theologian can make an argument with that level of rigour, and I certainly don't think the beliefs of the average religious person have been proved to that level (by themselves or anyone else).
The best a theologian could hope to do by comparison is an internally consistent model of what religion would be, ignoring the real world. In essence, they could hope to create a fantasy story without plot holes.
As long as you accept that religion has absolutely no physical or measurable effects then I would agree but I think what you mean to say is that is can be applied to philosophy which is much more accurate.
[–]gagle -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
math cannot be wrong as long as it adheres to it's internal structure
Not an expert on the subject, but I believe Gödel's incompleteness theorems shows that it could go wrong.
[–]BlueParrot 7 points8 points9 points 9 months ago
Not quite. It shows that it is either inconsistent or incomplete. Meaning that IF it is self consistent, then there are true equations that cannot be derived as theorems from the axioms.
Note that this remains true even if you change the axioms. If the system is self consistent and capable of representing basic arithmetic, then it WILL have statements that are true, but cannot be derived from whatever set of axioms you start with.
[–]gagle 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
Thanks for the clarification !
[–]JoelQ -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 months ago
I don't see anything being clarified here. There is no "deeper meaning." The joke Calvin is making is just that, a joke. It is similar to the annoying Creationists, who actually use this argument: "YOU EVOLUTIONISTS HAVE FAITH IN DARWIN DERPPP." Science and math don't use faith. Those mathematical principles on which Calvin's homework is based are derived from logic. They are provable! Repeatable. Unchanging. There is no "faith" in mathematics.
What the author said.
[–]Zayl 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
He was thanking BlueParrot for clarifying GIT, not for clarifying anything in the comic. Perhaps that's why you're being downvoted.
I know. I was responding to Blueparrot's clarification. I think the reason I'm being downvoted is because I'm suggesting that Calvin and Hobbes might not be the brilliant, post-modern commentary that reddit thinks it is. I think the joke here was simply, "Calvin is a clever rascal that hates homework." That's the joke.
[–]keeganspeck 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Blueparrot was talking about Gödel's incompleteness theorems, not the comic.
[–]spider67pl 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Yawn
[–]Somnombulist 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
However, Math is just a formal system that must reference itself. There are underlying concepts found externally which we can use "Math" to simulate, but ultimately the formal system does not directly equate to the reality.
Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by Douglas Hofstadter was an amazing book.
[–]madplayshd 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Im no mathematician either, but here is how I understand it:
They show that you cannot tell if something is true or not for every statement. That was an extremely important step, by the way. You must know, back in the 1900s math was not like today. Mathematical proof wasnt as rigoros, not everything was really proven. There actually were some people that said there must be a place for intuition in mathematics.
Along came a guy named Bertrand Russell, and he was obsessed with finding truth. So when he was in college, and learned the state mathematics really was in, he began a quest to make some solid foundations. While doing this Russell stumpled upon a paradox, called "Russell's paradox". Let R be a set that contains all sets that are not a member of themselfs. Is R a member of itself?
Think about this for a second.
The answer is: If its not, it is. If it is, its not. This was a shock for all mathematicians because set theory suddendly seemed flawed. He and a friend of his, Whiteman then wrote a book called 'Principia Mathematica' (not to be confused with Newtons work), to fix this problem. They thought they would need two years, but in the end it was more like 20, and they didnt really fix the problem either. No publisher wanted to publish it and in the end, they had to pay themselfes for it to be published. Russell knew only two people who read the book in his lifetime (altough it later became the foundation of a lot of modern mathematics and even one of the foundations of computers): Wittgenstein, who later volunteered for the first world war and was generally crazy, and Gödel.
Gödel (chronically depressive) later proved that you just cannot say for every problem if it is true or not. That solved a lot of the issues.
[–]TashanValiant 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I didn't read much of what you said, but math has been rigorous for 3000 years. The standard of mathematical rigor has been extremely consistent since Euclids Elements. 100 years ago mathematical rigor was extremely important. Same as it was 200 years ago or now. Bertrands paradox and Godels Incompleteness theorem have nothing to do with rigor. They are limitations of consistent or complete axiomatic systems.
[–]madplayshd 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
You might be interested what Poincare said about this:
"Poincaré had philosophical views opposite to those of Bertrand Russell and Gottlob Frege, who believed that mathematics was a branch of logic. Poincaré strongly disagreed, claiming that intuition was the life of mathematics. Poincaré gives an interesting point of view in his book Science and Hypothesis:
For a superficial observer, scientific truth is beyond the possibility of doubt; the logic of science is infallible, and if the scientists are sometimes mistaken, this is only from their mistaking its rule.
Poincaré believed that arithmetic is a synthetic science. He argued that Peano's axioms cannot be proven non-circularly with the principle of induction (Murzi, 1998), therefore concluding that arithmetic is a priori synthetic and not analytic. Poincaré then went on to say that mathematics cannot be deduced from logic since it is not analytic. His views were similar to those of Immanuel Kant (Kolak, 2001, Folina 1992). He strongly opposed Cantorian set theory, objecting to its use of impredicative definitions."
I don't really see what any of that has to do with the basis of rigor. Or perhaps your definition of rigor is different from mine.
I was saying that the logic of mathematics and proving what was true was held to a high standard for some time.
Also, Poincare was one man. He held his beliefs but it didn't change the nature or procedure math took as it changed. He believed Cantor's ideas on Set Theory would disappear. The entirety of mathematics is held on set theory now. Analysis isn't the only way to accomplish things in math either. Geometry is well defined without analysis. As well as Graph Theory.
Also I don't quite think you understand the term analysis in your quote from wiki there. It is mathematical analysis. Which has its own logic and basis for set theory.
And Godel's proof has nothing to do with statements of problems. It is axiomatic systems, of which set theory is one. And it also has little to do with Poincare or his beliefs on set theory.
[–]freekwagon 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
self portraiture of Bill Watterson http://imgur.com/ESoja
[–]PipPipCheerio 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Very astute analysis, deepwank.
[–]hookrsftw 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
You guys should read Anathem, now!
[–]rmhawesome 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
There are two types of people in this world, people who can do math and people who cannot. The majority is made up of the second group, apparently humanity wasn't meant to be good at it. But if you can actually use abstraction to picture and perform math, it all makes sense in a basic way. Just put one jelly bean on a table next to another, and suddenly you have two. Work your way up from there and who knows how far you'll go.
[–]umanwizard 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago*
No. We don't have "faith" that our axioms are true. This is meaningless.
We assume they are true and find out what we can deduce from them. Worlds of difference.
[–]zodar 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
There is no faith involved. Math is an a priori truth.
[–]MrBigOpportunity 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
This guy seems to understand that but still loves math.
http://www.youtube.com/user/njwildberger
[–]logifal -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
Most people miss this? Oh, I forgot this is on /r/atheism.
[–]DriedT -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 months ago
No, I don't think it's supposed to be that deep; I know it would please you more if it was nice and deep, Mr. deepwank. The axioms in math are based on things that can be verified with observational science. You can physically take equally sized sticks and prove addition, subtraction, division, and multiplication are all true quite easily.
[–]UandV 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Stop talking shit. Everyone stop trying to discuss mathematics, it's embarassing.
[–]an_eggman 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
You have no clue how mathematics are built up do you? How about you take your sticks and "prove" the ZFC axioms. :)
[–]DriedT -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
Yes, axioms governing how math can be written down on paper are not easily proven with sticks. I could write some elaborate response with identical size sticks of various colors and different densities and so on to try to prove the ZFC axioms with sticks, but my work day is almost over.
Math is just a language to represent the physcial world and the physcial world is imperfect, but that does not mean math is incorrect. The entire world you know only exists in your mind, events occur outside of your conciousness but you only know of those events once they enter your conciousness. Math exists no matter what, into enternity. It does not matter if you call it "Math", or if you have "numbers", it will always be there not giving a shit. We use Math to try to comprehend our physical world. In our world if you have 20 objects and take away half those objects you will have 10, if you add the magical "1" object you will then have 11 objects, physically the objects will eventually cease to exist but the math is sound. This is as correct as anything can be in our conciousness. :P
[–]qwop271828 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Mathematics is not solely a language to represent the physical world. Areas like group theory deal with purely abstract concepts and make no attempt to relate them to the real world. The fact we have a concept of a group in everyday life also is just because it is convenient terminology for mathematicians.
Group theory came about in the 19th century as a consequence of considering certain questions in number theory and equation theory (areas of maths which which provide extremely useful tools for describing the real world). When the abstract concept of a group started to become a topic of study in its own right, many mathemeticians were slow to embrace it because of its lack ability to provide explicit answers to equations.
To my knowledge nothing in the natural world was to be well described by group theory until we started using symmetry groups in quantum physics which was much much later than the birth of group theory. So until then, group theory remained completely abstract. The fact we use it in quantum physics is incidental.
[–]an_eggman -2 points-1 points0 points 9 months ago
Good luck verifying the axiom of infinity...
Okaaaaaay.
[–]ocamlmycaml 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
How can you conceive of things like numbers, groups, etc. without reasoning beyond pure observation? And there's application of logic and reason which aren't immediately observed, even in your example of 'adding' sticks together.
[–]DriedT 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
A number is not a physical object, it is simply used to represent an object, distance, or something along those lines. When using a number to represent something, that something becomes perfect/ideal, such as saying a stick is 1 meter long; is it really exactly 1 meter? No but thats not what math is about. This is also how words work, the word "fish" represents a fish but it is not actually a fish; the fish you imagine when reading the word is a perfect/ideal fish that doesn't really exist anywhere.
If you try to argue these things against math you are starting to get into philosophy and questions about reality and if you want to go get into that stuff math is of no consequence any longer and you need not worry about trivial things such as addition.
[–]XiaoD11 -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
My math professor showed us this when introducing Peano number system. There is a reason why 1+1=2.
[–]cocorebop -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
No, we define the axioms to be true and therefore they are, no faith involved at all. That's like saying I need "faith" to believe that I named my cat Bill. I named him Bill and therefore he is. After you define axioms, however, the structures have properties beyond the axioms, and the discovery of those properties is the goal of mathematics.
[–]supahnath 18 points19 points20 points 9 months ago
I guess one could say he a... mathiest?
[–]TomCADK 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
Hmmm, wouldn't that be a believer in math?
How about, amathiest.
[–]Somnombulist 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
I didn't realize AMA had started it's own cult...
Are the moderators like the apostles then?
[–]Bandit1379 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
No, I'm pretty sure it would be "matheist"
[–]santa4nt 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
He's the mathiest of them all!
Matheist. Sheesh.
[–]SiRchuki -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
I had a feeling someone would beat me to it.
[–]GAMEchief 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
So I recently met a girl who literally doesn't believe in math. I don't know how to respond to such a claim. She says numbers are entirely invented, and that there being 1 object plus 1 other object does not make 2 objects if we don't believe it makes two objects.
She tells this to people, and so far 100% of the responses have been, "The fuck are you talking about?"
[–]Pernic10us 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
The fuck is she talking about?
[–]GAMEchief 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I don't know. I think I'm going to use a physics example next time she brings it up. Whether or not humans believe in math, physics still abides by it, so maybe that will resonate.
[–]PuzzledJigsaw 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Or you can turn to philosophy, it has been the general concensus that mathematics is true based on reason alone since ancient greece. Thus, its not much about "believing", it just is. Also by some points of view this makes her less human.
[–]BallsDeepInJesus 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
She must know about Quantum Mechanics.
[–]Cerbyn 7 points8 points9 points 9 months ago
I wish I could of enjoyed this fully but the title gave away the punch line :(
[–]The_Chaos_Pope 12 points13 points14 points 9 months ago
You just need to develop a shorter attention span.
[–]RoflCopter4 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
TL;DR
And Hagar the Horrible
[–]kt00na 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
Number Theory is just a theory, not fact.
[–]TomCADK 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
You may all just be figments of my imagination. How do I know you are real?
[–]studmuffffffin 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
He's making fun of creationists.
[–]namer98 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
We all know all the numbers were invented. You can not use the system to prove the integrity of the system. Godel's theorem
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
Godel's theorem only says that any sufficiently-powerful formal proof system is either incomplete or inconsistent. So far, we have no reason to believe that our systems are inconsistent.
[–]namer98 -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 months ago
But neither can we prove it is inconsistent.
I have no reason to think Judaism is inconsistent. But can I prove either way?
Same goes for math.
[–]DriedT 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Yes, read the bible, BAM! Judaism is inconsistent. Learn all the math, BAM! consistent.
[–]namer98 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Where is Judaism inconsistent? Where can you prove maths consistency? I have a BS in math, I think I understand it.
[–]DriedT 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Millions of Jews pray for the same thing (correctly, verbatim to the original prayer), they all get different results.
Millions of people do the same math problem (correctly), they all get the same result.
[–]namer98 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago*
Ok, good point.
But why do they get the same result? What makes math work? Math is as man-made as you might think (believe/know/etc) as religion is. You can not prove math is consistent using math.
Edit: Are you familiar with mathematical logic and proofs?
[–]BallsDeepInJesus -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
A whole Bachelor degree. You must be really smart! A bet a guy with a Bachelor in English could write Shakespeare.
It is of course possible to create formal proof systems which are inconsistent. Technically this mean that I can prove both a proposition p and the proposition not(p) using the rules of the system.
We don't use these systems to do mathematics for obvious reasons.
Then you haven't read the bible.
Old testament, not bible.
We can not prove math is consistent using the rules of math. We all know it (believe it to) be consistent, but not able to formally prove it, using math.
Sure. I agree with you. But you said we can't prove it inconsistent, which is a different claim and I was responding to that.
Sorry, meant consistent.
[–]Fenris_uy 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
1+1=2 is still based on 2 axioms. you have to believe that axioms or the math can't exist.
[–]UandV 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
People upvoted this? Piss off.
[–]Freak8206 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
That does seem to be about as logical as Christians, Muslims, and Jews if you ask me...
[–]Kefka85 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Best comic strip cartoon ever. I love Calvin and hobbes.
In general I mean, Calvin and Hobbes are always a "cheer me up" for me
[–]iTrackfast 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I'm just sad that I only have one upvote to give.
[–]sultan_drops 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
this is the plot of the most recent episode of bevis and butthead
[–]BuckyDuster 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Empirically
[–]jreckers 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I have a BA in Mathematics, and was really into comics as a kid. I have had this printed and in my car's rear window for years (to the point that the paper it is printed on is discolored from the sun.)
[–]mrytudor 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Yep that's how dumb atheists sound
[–]UnknownArchive 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Anyone seeking more info might also check here:
source: karmadecay
[–]spaceboundmonkeys 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
As an atheist and an angineer, I think math and it's connection to science is one of the only things that might be used to hint to something divine existing out there. It really is awesome how precisely the natural world can be described with a little creativity and mathematical logic.
[–]wjbc 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
"The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is at all comprehensible." --Albert Einstein
I loved the book ending to Sagan's "Contact."
[–]darrellgb 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Just because you can't comprehend something doesn't mean you should dismiss it
[–]Erynsen 7 points8 points9 points 9 months ago
exactly! why can't you comprehend that jesus is our lord and savior!
[–]PureQuixotry 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
You're so right, how did I allow myself to be led astray!
[–]NovusHomoSapiens 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Wrong. Why can't you comprehend that Mohammed is our true prophet sent by our Allah?
[–]DigitalOsmosis -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 months ago
You realize you're posting in /r/atheism right? I upvoted to try to help you out, but they'll be comming with their pitchforks soon.
[–]cr41g0n 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
whoosh.
[–]CalvinandHobbesSucks 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Holy hell does this ever suck.
[–]flexfunk2001 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Tru dat my brother
That makes a lot of sense until you consider that arithmetic can be epiracallly proven.
[–]Nekomancerr 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
This is a great C&H! One of my math professors loved this one and would put it on our assignments.
[–]TracyMorganFreeman 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
MAtheist.
[–]Czarmstrong 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
A mathiest?
[–]Pernic10us 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
An Amathist?
[–]Misanthroat 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Then there is unlicensed crap like this... http://blog.beliefnet.com/stuffchristianculturelikes/2010/07/172-calvin-praying-at-the-cross.html
[–]Deutschbury 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I love Calvin and Hobbes so much for this exact reason.
[–]elRinbo 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
ah but Calvin, you just haven't seen the light yet!
[–]Sambo33 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
i want to upvote this a zillion times
[–]W00ster 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I know how he felt, I had the same feeling when dealing with elliptic curves.
[–]metalmusicatheism 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Actually, Math is just a theory. Why is it being taught in public schools! It's false!
Theory of Numbers by the way.
[–]Penguin_Dreams 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
As someone with dyscalculia, I couldn't agree more with Calvin.
[–]Graywolves 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
It makes perfect sense! Everything that we believe to be concrete and consistent is completley reliant upon our acceptance of the rules that we've established and that the reality presented to us is reality!
[–]FreeThinker76 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
A Matheist.....I get it
[–]TheThomaswastaken 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Math is not believed, it is assumed. Then tested, and found to work. The axioms of math are just assumptions. Could be called guesses or something to have faith in. The rest is the logical expansion of those assumptions. One example of these axioms is 'the point' from Geometry. It is assumed to exist and be infinitely small. A logical extension of 'the point' is a line, an infinite row of these points.
[–]hopy921 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
"Religion is the opiate of the masses"(from Calvin and Hobbes), so true...
[–]medlish 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
It's funny cause the same math let's us build bridges and tall buildings, let's us create machines, programs, let's us go to the moon and back etc.
[–]RockfordBrodie 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
[FWWEET] Illegal use of apostrophes, 15 yards, still 1st down.
Randomly was thinking of this: Use its for possession and it's for contraction for its' sake.
I was trying to think if its' could ever be used correctly.
[–]eiskalteschatten -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
That is really great! That's exactly how I've always felt about maths....
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 9 months ago*
Isn't he sort of correct?
Isn't math ultimately a shot in the dark until we solve the P=NP problem?
Or are there other axioms that allow us to get around that?
EDIT: Hate to be this guy but to the downvoters, please explain, I'm just asking for clarity on the subject. Getting downvoted for an honest question without explanation is maddening.
DOUBLE EDIT: WHATS THIS ABOUT GOD? I'm an atheist, I am asking a question of mathematical proofs and the incompleteness of axioms.
[–]Hartigan_John -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
you can downvote all you want, math is based on unproved stuff like the axiom of choice. and just like God. all your study of chimic, physic and every science branch is based on math theorems. sorry to hurt you, a God probably exist, even if not the one worshipped by most religions.
[–]Original_Woody 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Except that a mathematician, a Muslim and a Christian can all fly in a plane going 350mph and then come to a safe and complete stop thousands of miles from their departure point and know exactly where they are. Sure mathematics might be a theory, but it's the best of all "faiths". I have never seen self-explanatory evidence of any divinity. At least that I can make sense of like I can with math.
[–]Hartigan_John 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
you get that sense of divinity after a while messing your mind with stuff which doesnt even exist in real life.and that actually has sense also. like the torricelli's trumpet
[–]Original_Woody 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
My only point is, all three of those people can share the same experience that was completely founded by our faith in math. While not one of those people can share the same experience of divinity. I was a chrisitan for 22 years, I know the sense of divinity, and I realize now it was all in my head. But I'm not debating then philosophy of math, just using we have empirical evidence that is true.
in all honesty, is just find it amusing how atheists think that believing in a God is totally stupid and for brainless. they dont seem much different from the christians they nag. trying to convert and insult, to overcome with verbal and physical violence. you all talk about living peacefully your own life without minding other's busness and using reason. being atheists doesnt make you a scientist nor a smart guy. if a person is a dumbass, he just is, no matter if believer or not. i have more a vision of Platon's God, where math is just the soul of our world. its simply absurd to think its random that nature uses so many math formulas in totally different forms
Nice generalization. You clearly don't know many atheists if that is your experience with them. If you are basing your conclusions on atheist from reddit and the typical post, I shouldn't have to point out the error in that. I know a lot of christians and fewer atheists, but in my experience, even before I was an atheist, the atheists I knew were much more thoughtful and rational than the christians I knew. Some of us are always constantly challenging our own ideas, analyzing, arguing with our self-narrative, something that I can say for only a handful of religious folk I know. Your general characterization of atheists is actually everything I despise about religion. This constant attitude that since a few people of a group act a certain way, they must all be that way. Or since our way works for us, it must work for everyone else. However, I will admit that on a purely philosophical level, math could be similar to faith. Additionally, just because math works, it doesn't require a divinity or supernatural force. Calculus didn't exist prior to Newton, Newton designed calculus to describe his observations, not the other way around.
who said calculations didnt exist before Newton? math laws were there alredy, they dont get invented or built like a bridge, they are DISCOVERED. ofcourse many theorems were realized by trying to solve real problems, but then they got generalized in a more abstract form ( look at the fourier serie for example). and by the way, yeah, i referred to the atheists here on reddit. isnt this whole site generalizing how christians are? i find it amusing, and yet, childish. i dont really care much, some of the irony is good, but a huge part of it its just sad. the one generalizing here isnt surely me but most of this community members. for my personal experience in real life, arguments about religion are pretty rare. even if even my girlfriend is an atheist and we love each other she still shows some intolerance toward me once in a while. we still respect each other without making fun of our beliefs. to ridicule is wrong by both sides, it feels like most of people here is just frustrated by a bigot mindset
I'm an atheist... how did god get mixed in this? I'm talking about the reduction of proofs in mathematics.
Math eventually relies on axioms and it was my understanding that until P=NP gets solved we are unsure if math is absolute.
[–]Hartigan_John -2 points-1 points0 points 9 months ago
you noobs, kurt godel proved God's existence. math power
[–]Esuma -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
Compelling arguments hahah
[–]Sarahmint -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 months ago
Actually it can all be proven.
[–]tinfang -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 months ago
He's right, it's why it's called math theory. First you have to believe there is a value cap. If there are infinite parts of one what is the value of 1, if there are infinite parts of infinite parts you get....?
You have to have faith to make it work and ignore the details that do not support your conclusion.
[–]lintamacar -4 points-3 points-2 points 9 months ago
I swear to the flying spaghetti monster that if I see this reposted 1 more time... ಠ_ಠ
[–]YummYumms -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
I have this comic cut out and carry it in my wallet
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
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