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In Memory of John Lennon, who was shot dead on this day 31 years ago by a Religious Nut. Lennon, you are bigger than Jesus. (api.ning.com)
submitted 8 months ago by [deleted]
[–]somepersonsname 37 points38 points39 points 8 months ago
I cant find anything saying Mark Chapman kill Lennon for religious reasons. Just the catcher in the rye.
[–]philge 36 points37 points38 points 8 months ago
From the book Let Me Take You Down: Inside the Mind of Mark David Chapman,the Man Who Killed John Lennon by Jack Jones:
"I would listen to this music and I would get angry at him, for saying that he didn't believe in God... and that he didn't believe in the Beatles. This was another thing that angered me, even though this record had been done at least 10 years previously. I just wanted to scream out loud, 'Who does he think he is, saying these things about God and heaven and the Beatles?' Saying that he doesn't believe in Jesus and things like that. At that point, my mind was going through a total blackness of anger and rage. So I brought the Lennon book home, into this The Catcher in the Rye milieu where my mindset is Holden Caulfield and anti-phoniness."
[–]mattjackson4444 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Isn't Holden Caufiled an athiest?
[–]philge 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
Here's a quote from Holden:
"In the first place, I'm sort of an atheist. I like Jesus and all, but I don't care too much for most of the other stuff in the Bible. Take the Disciples, for instance. They annoy the hell out of me, if you want to know the truth. They were all right after Jesus was dead and all, but while He was alive, they were about as much use to Him as a hole in the head. All they did was keep letting Him down. I like almost anybody in the Bible better than the Disciples. If you want to know the truth, the guy I like best in the Bible, next to Jesus, was that lunatic and all, that lived in the tombs and kept cutting himself with stones. I like him ten times as much as the Disciples, that poor bastard. "
[–]OJSlaughter 13 points14 points15 points 8 months ago
The man was mentally ill!
Religion had nothing to do with it, even if you say that religion was his motive: the only reason he interpreted his beliefs like that was due to his metal illness.
[–]thatzombiepunk 12 points13 points14 points 8 months ago
I thought we addressed the mentally ill thing. He said the man was a religious nut. somepersonsname made a remark implying that the killer wasn't religious, and then philge quoted a documented source where it says he is and that's it. I don't understand where you're coming from with the "He was mentally ill!" thing. Sorry if it just wooshed me or something I'm sick and have been studying for finals all day. bleh.
[–]mme_deviance 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago*
As someone who was engaged to an atheist who developed schizophrenia, mental illness can make you religious. He bought and read the Bible and thought Jesus was giving him messages through it. Just an example that sometimes the "nuttiness" can come before the religion.
[–]OJSlaughter -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
He was religious, I was just saying that it was mental illness that made him interpret his religion in that way.
I was saying to not blame the religion for the tragedy!
You didn't miss anything, I just wasn't too clear :)
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
Ok, let's explore the alternate reality where Chapman wasn't religious.
Lennon : "I don't believe in god."
Chapman : "Not a fuck is given."
Did you get your tickets for the '83 Beatles reunion tour?
[–]d0nu7 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Check and mate.
[–]Srsninja 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
Religion is a mental illness in itself. The idea that humanity can't handle it, that we need some sort of invisible protector.
[–]OJSlaughter -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 months ago
Humanity is capable of some rather brash things though!
Consider this: you are an animal, we all are. We are all subscribed to morales, justice and society, blindly following the example of others, is religion all that bad?
[–]Srsninja 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
We are all subscribed to morales, justice and society, blindly following the example of others, is religion all that bad?
Yeah, it is. Because it preaches murder and hate, religion exists to seperate people.
Not all of us are in 'it' for the morals. I only participate in society because I want to see how far it can go and how I can help take it.
[–]Anteres 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Yes. Religion is bad. Very bad. When something encourages discrimination and murder simply because it doesn't agree with that person or people, that thing is bad. While there are some good things that some religions say, there are a lot more bad things that it promotes and encourages, or outright demands from it's believers. Look through a history book, and then ask yourself if religion is all that bad. Or better yet, read a religious tome cover to cover. You will find more hate mongering than morally positive messages.
[–]philge 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Well maybe people shouldn't hold beliefs based on ancient literature that is open to vastly and wildly different interpretation.
[–]OJSlaughter -4 points-3 points-2 points 8 months ago
They are within there rights to and many get courage and solace from the literature. I'm just saying, don't be a dick! Respect all other religions or you are just as bad as the Religious Nuts...
[–]Srsninja 10 points11 points12 points 8 months ago
Respect all other religions or you are just as bad as the Religious Nuts...
This is not true, sorry. Obviously everyone should be free to do as they wish, but respect? No.
I will not respect an organization that has killed over 100,000 people for witchcraft. I will not respect an organization that allows rape and honor killings.
I will not respect people who don't respect themselves.
[–]OJSlaughter -8 points-7 points-6 points 8 months ago
Organisation? You seem to be under the delusion that religions are all controlled by some single actor, that is not the case. Simply accept everyone and don't believe that your beliefs are the only answer, that is all I ask!
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
So you would never condemn any belief ever?
Simply accept everyone and don't believe that your beliefs are the only answer, that is all I ask!
Oh, but they are. I mean, sure, it is possible but there is a God? Yes. It is extremely possible that I am wrong. HOWEVER...no other opinion can be backed up but mine. I state there is no God and he will not interfere, and he won't.
Deism I can respect. But Christianity? Islam? Others? no.
[–]iMarmalade 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
don't believe that your beliefs are the only answer
If you don't believe that your beliefs are true, then why hold them? Sounds like some mushy thought there....
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago*
There are plenty of religions with texts that insist on not involving themselves in the lives of non-believers
Ill respect those. Not the Abrahamic ones
Believe what you want, but dont immediately assume you deserve respect for beliefs that have demonstrably hurt people in my country. Im willing to bet you dont respect people who believe Elvis is alive, you laugh at them behind their back and call them crazy
I suppose I do come from a rather secular country (UK) where religion really has no impact on us: apart from some rather outlandish displays by members of certain religious sects.
Still I stand by it: people need to ignore all the bullshit and learn to respect each other. We would all be better off without the drama and conflict
[–]Foucatswim -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
I find it funny that you're being logical and nonhateful in your posts, and they keep downvoting you. I mean, to me, it seems that they're downvoting you for not blaming everything on religion. Ah that's pretty golden. You're a good guy, OJ, a good guy. Not like the rest of these jags.
[–]OJSlaughter 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Exactly my point: don't trust some of the irrational people on this site!
:)
[–]somepersonsname 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Thanks for that.
No problem. I believe that religious conviction was a big contributing factor to Chapman's motive.
[–]nyuncat 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
If you're basing this on the quote you posted above, couldn't it have been about Lennon not believing in the beatles just as much as him not believing in Jesus? There doesn't seem to be enough here to classify Chapman as a religious nutjob. I'd stick him in the category of general nutjob.
[–]Freak8206 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
in fact chapman was a huge Beatles fan. From what I have read, the thing that angered him most was that he felt John was being hypocritical for the line "imagine no possessions" when he was one of the biggest names in the world and could have just bout anything he wanted. This is what I've read and found, and while I don't think it's wrong, it could be.
[–]paraedolia -4 points-3 points-2 points 8 months ago
I thought he was trying to impress Jodie Foster, and David Bowie was next on the hitlist if he missed John Lennon?
[–]Alyeska2112 11 points12 points13 points 8 months ago
That was John Hinckley, Jr.
[–]paraedolia 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
That's it! Damn I wish the outcomes of those two assassination attempts had been reversed.
[–]philge -2 points-1 points0 points 8 months ago
It's possible. All I'm saying is that religion certainly played a part in it.
[–]BuckyDuster 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Yeah, me too. I find no hard evidence that Mark David Chapman was religious. I agree that Mark David Chapman was a nut and I am a fan of John Lennon.
[–]tahollow 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I've also read that when he shot Lennon he was found with over 15 hours of Beatles music on his person and told police god told him to shoot John Lennon. I don't have a source other then it was in a class I took at the university. Religious intent or not the fucker was crazy.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
John Lennon knew too much... secret societies had to take him down
[–]maldio -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
The JAMs?
[–]3rdgearisheaven 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
I was the Dreamweaver, but now I'm reborn. I was the Walrus, but now I'm John. And so dear friends, you'll just have to carry on. The dream is over.
RIP John.
[–]JoyStain 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
No religion? We would find other reasons to kill each other.
[–]philge 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
We certainly would, and I don't believe that can ever be stopped. If we want to make the world a better place however, a good start would be to toss this wicked and twisted religious superstition that is so heinously disguised as morality.
[–]Dustin_00 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I rather don't like this pic as it hides the social and economic injustice the US enables corporations to wield against those with fewer resources.
Those towers stood as the pinnacle of unethical greed, western economic dominance, and will to extract every resource from the rest of the world without proper compensation.
Even without religion, 100s of millions have much to complain about western society.
Pinnacle of unethical greed? Interesting.
[–]Dustin_00 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Coffee: A Dark History
[–]Mrs_Boxdog 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Oh, when I read that it was a tiny bit like hearing it for the first time all over again.
Chapman was plain fucked in the head.
[–]Mallack 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
My name is Lennon and this is giving me a huge ego trip
[–]simpletonlol 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
I love John Lennon, his attitude, and the Beatles, so this has my upvote. However, as a history major with a focus in U.S. foreign relations this picture is what I would expect from Americans. 9/11 had very little to do with religion. It was mostly direct retaliation due U.S. Cold War foreign policy.
The CIA formed and funded the terrorist organizations to fight the Soviet Union and stop the spread of communism. As long as the terrorists were anti communist, they would be recruited, regardless of religion, politics, etc.
The U.S. fucked them over, yanked their chains, and committed countless covert activities frequently during the duration of the Cold War. Eventually groups like the Taliban and the mujahideen got fed up and retaliated with attacks on embassies and U.S. military institutions, leading up to 9/11. The terrorists just happened to stoop that low and inflict civilian casualties, but its no different then U.S. foreign policy was towards the end of the Cold War: shock and awe, regardless of the casualties.
TL;DR - Blowback. Get informed people.
[–]shaggyzon4 -2 points-1 points0 points 8 months ago
You were doing great - until you decided to conclude your post with a sarcastic TL;DR.
Honestly, the information you provided is insightful. It's the reason I come to reddit. However, the condescending TL;DR largely negates your credibility. People don't like to be insulted. They just think "Oh, this guy is a dick, so I'll just ignore his comment." I appreciate the fact that you spent time studying the real history of the U.S., but if you don't present in a palatable manner, people are likely to ignore your salient points.
[–]simpletonlol 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I mean no insult, as most are ignorant when it comes to foreign policy. Not pernicious ignorance, but just a lack of knowledge on the subject.
[–]shaggyzon4 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I wasn't insulted. And I understand your frustration. My personal experience has taught me not to combine my rants with my "public service announcements", though. After all, we are all ignorant of something. I certainly wouldn't go into r/science and rant at someone for not being able to solve a differential equation. I wouldn't say,'Get informed, people. Calculus has been around for hundreds of years.' Yet, compared to the complexity of social issues, calculus is easy. The solution is algorithmic. Mathematics problems are...doable and solvable. Addressing a social issue is much more difficult. Many people think that they've studied history - they don't realize that they have only read biased accounts and misinformation. People like you and I are left in the unenviable position of telling them that everything they know is total bullshit. It's not an easy job, and I respect the fact that you are willing to share your considerable knowledge of history with the folks here on reddit. Also, please keep in mind that Americans are fed this bullshit from age 5 to age 18, in public schools and the mass media. I am an American, and I can tell you this - it's difficult to find anyone in an American high school who hasn't been brainwashed in this regard. So...try to remember that you are fighting against 12-13 years of mental conditioning. It's tough...nearly as ingrained as religion. (After all, in America...religion, history and patriotism walk hand-in-hand-in-hand down the halls of our schools.) TL;DR: Americans are often brainwashed.
[–]philge -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 months ago
I've explained this several times now. It does not matter whether or not the attacks were motivated by religion. The huge number of Americans believe that these attacks are just Muslim hatred against Christians. This belief has caused hatred and Islamaphobia across America. So it doesn't matter what the purpose of the attack was, the fact of the matter is that Muslims are being persecuted in America because of it, and they are being persecuted by ignorant Christians. This IS a religious issue.
You're only backpedaling after being called out on your ignorance. That's obviously not the message this image intends to send.
[–]philge -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
Thank you for letting me know what my intentions are.
[–]simpletonlol 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Let me rephrase my TL;DR TL;DR - Get informed, ignorant Christians.
[–]EvOllj 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
the dirt under my toenails is bigger than jesus. when compairing, aim high.
[–]asharkey3 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Is there proof that the killer did it for religious reasons? Or is this just someone using a tragic event as a scapegoat?
[–]philge 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
He didn't do it explicitly for religious reasons, but Chapman has stated that Lennon's views on Jesus and God did make him very angry.
[–]asharkey3 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
ah, point conceded
[–]ZeeHanzenShwanz 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Hmm I don't think the world trade center massacre is an appropriate representation of the message Lennon was trying to give. The terrorists who did this did not do it because of their religious beliefs, they did it because they were pissed off at the US govt and its citizens. Yes they may have been very religious people, but to imply that there is a correlation between the two is misinformed and misconstrued.
If you really want to break it down, let's take the "imagine there's no countries, nothing to kill or die for" line. Because that's really what these bastard terrorist were killing for. The sovereignty of their country, that the US had taken away from them with their military occupation, and bombings which killed many innocent civilians.
[–]philge 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
No one seems to be reading the comments. I've explained this probably five times now: It does not matter whether or not the attacks were motivated by religion. A large number of Americans believe that these attacks were just Muslim hatred against Christians. This belief has caused hatred and Islamaphobia across America. So it doesn't matter what the purpose of the attack was, the fact of the matter is that Muslims are being persecuted in America because of it, and they are being persecuted by ignorant Christians. This IS a religious issue. Believe me, I live in the Bible Belt. When people see a hijab or any sort of head-wear that is foreign to them, and brown skin, they immediately think "Muslim" and then "Terrorist!"
[–]ZeeHanzenShwanz 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Right, well i'm in agreement with you in that it has bred a sea of ignorant and thoughtless reasoning, but the message I construe from the image is that the twin towers would still be there if there was no religion, and I definitely do not think that is true. I see your point that, all too often, people wage war based on falsified beliefs, and it is a damn shame that so many lives are lost this way but the amalgamation of religion and the WTC just doesn't strike a logical chord with me.
[–]SuperSaucyBiscuit 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
He did it because he wanted popularity for killing Lennon. This is why if you notice any official document released about the Beatles they will always leave his name out.
[–]Modpunkoi 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Darby Crash also died today, don't forget the Germs.
[–]maldio 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
John Malkovich and Donny Osmond were both born today, another cosmic juxtaposition.
[–]mikewazowski333 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I miss John Lennon so much. Despite not being alive at the same time. If it wasn't for him I'm not sure who I'd be today, let alone if I'd be an atheist.
[–]El_Sid 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Seriously is there a connection between the twin towers and religion?
[–]junkeee999 -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
Oh for fuck's sake. You're going to pin Chapman's craziness on religion?
Sometimes this subreddit is really good. This is not one of those times. This is why it does not have higher standing around here.
[–]hollingm 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
Oh for fuck's sake, educate yourself about the man's religious zealotry before you post a comment.
[–]junkeee999 -6 points-5 points-4 points 8 months ago
You really don't get it.
[–]hollingm 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Mirror. Look into one.
[–]tynich 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
He said he believed it was a contributing factor. Respect other people's insights, asshole.
[–]junkeee999 -2 points-1 points0 points 8 months ago
Why should I respect other insights when they're wrong? Chapman would have been a fucking loony whether he was Christian, Muslim, Jew or atheist.
I don't think he would have been enraged about Lennon's "more popular than Jesus" comment if he was a Jew, or atheist.
But he would have been just as crazy. If not John Lennon it would have been somebody else.
It's possible, but the fact is that he is a Christian, and he did comment on how enraged he was on Lennon's comments about God and Jesus.
Let's not start talking about hypothetical situations here.
[–]junkeee999 -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 months ago
His comments on God and Jesus...and the Beatles. Are we conveniently forgetting that part?
We're not conveniently forgetting anything. Chapman was upset about Lennon's commentary on God. I'm not saying that there weren't other factors involved.
All I'm saying is, the quoted text talked about him being mad at Lennon's statements about God, Jesus, AND the Beatles. One of these three gets dropped. Hmm.
And why does it get dropped? Because it serves to illustrate that Chapman was nutty and he might as well been mad at Lennon's comments on Mickey Mouse.
This whole thread is pointed at saying religion killed John Lennon. That is insane.
That's actually not what the whole thread is about. The main point is to imagine John's ideas about no religion. I included the fact that his killer was a religious nut to illustrate the irony involved.
I am only pointing out that religion was a contributing factor, and I have provided my evidence. I have said several times now that religion was not the only motive.
Why should you respect other insights even if they are wrong? Because you'll do nothing but cause argument when you try to belittle other people's opinions. Provoking someone because you have a different opinion/belief will probably end up bloody for you one day. Good luck with that.
[–]Arcanorum -4 points-3 points-2 points 8 months ago
Rewriting history 31 years later to support a stupid claim is not the same as an 'insight'. Chapman was nuts, religion didn't make him nuts and it certainly didn't make him kill anyone. His own fucked up brain chemistry did that.
Who is rewriting history? I've stated only that religious conviction was one of many contributing factors, and I've cited the evidence for it. This is my speculation based on the evidence at hand. You may agree or disagree, but I certainly have not said anything fallacious.
You cited 1 passage from 1 book written more than a decade after the incident at hand. The passage you cited is a rambling, incoherent mess of thought coming from a deranged man. What that passage proves is Chapman was nuts. PERIOD.
Chapman stated that he was angry about Lennon's commentary on God. That's all there is to it. The murderer himself said that this was one of the reasons he was angry with John. What more do you need?
[–]Arcanorum -4 points-3 points-2 points 8 months ago*
He also said that one of his reasons had to do with Catcher in the Rye. Do we now consider literature to be a contributing factor? Or should we see Salinger himself as a contributing factor? He said that Lennon's statement about not believing in the Beatles was a reason as well. Are the Beatles or Lennon himself a contributing factor? Or is everything he said just the disjointed rambling of a crazy man?.
If you are going to take the religion part of the quote seriously because it came straight from Chapman, then all the rest of the quote should be taken just as seriously. The problem with that is no one takes the rest of the quote seriously because it's the ramblings of a sick man. So why treat the one part that /atheism will upvote as being a true/resonable statement?
EDIT: If the title of your post was 'In Memory of John Lennon, who was shot dead on this day 31 years ago by a Literature/Music Nut. Lennon, you are bigger than Jesus.' everyone would agree its a retarded post. But put in 'religious' and you get instant upvotes.
I consider all of these things contributing factors.
[–]Arcanorum -2 points-1 points0 points 8 months ago
If Catcher in the Rye/Salinger/Lennon/Beatles/religion were all contributing factors then why hasn't every person who's dealt with the same media had a reaction similar to Chapman's? The reason why they haven't is because the only factor here is Chapman's mental illness. Everything else is irrelevant.
Well, upon examination by psychologists, he was declared fit to stand trial. If the only factor was mental illness, then he would be in a mental institution and not a prison.
[–]pipenho 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Do you really think that the 9/11 attacks were done because of religion? I think that they were political reasons instead of religious...
[–]ELNOOBSTER 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I'm reading this book "9/11 Wars", and it goes in depth into the reasons behind the attacks and what happened after the attacks.
9/11 attacks were done to get shit started basically. The intent was to radicalize parts of the islamic world into jihad against the muslims countries governments and the west. In OBL's view this required a theatrical and massive terrorist attack, a view that wasn't shared by everyone in al-qaeda. This radicalization would eventually lead into a block of strict islamic countries in the middle east - a new caliphate if you will.
Now as we saw, this is essentially what came to be. The attack and wests response did in fact increase the jihadist movement 100-fold. But even that wasn't enough to reach al-qaedas goal. One of the reasons it didn't work is that while at the beginning many were symphatetic (in the islamic countries) towards OBL and the 9/11 attacks, the support for these tactics decrease rapidle the closer to your home the terror attacks happen. Like we saw in Iraq, people get tired of muslims killing muslims in a few years.
You have to understand that in the view of some muslims politics, law and religion are inseparable, so it's impossible to explicitly state all the factors. But the studies on how someone becomes an extremist and travels to another country to fight jihad .. it has a really strong religious component.
The motivation behind the attacks is up for debate. I believe that there were a number of factors behind the event, both religious and political.
Even if the cause of the attacks was not religion at all, the event still caused religious intolerance towards Islam in America that still goes on today.
No it's not really up for debate. They were explicitly because of US imperialism and hegemony in the Middle East. The religion of the hijackers was incidental at best.
It certainly is up for debate as one surely cannot know the motives of another.
[–]Beard_of_life -2 points-1 points0 points 8 months ago
Well, just a nut, really. They were crazy, and not because of religion. They happened to be religious sometimes, but their craziness was separate from it.
[–]Arcanorum 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I'm so sick of reasonable/neutral comments getting downvoted around here. You said nothing worthy of a downvote, but no one around here likes hearing that religion isn't responsible for every single bad thing in the world.
Yup. Edgy Teen Atheist Just As Ignorant As Stupid Christians He Denounces
[–]slackerdc 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Religious nuts are responsible for a ton of bad things but killing John Lennon wasn't one of them. Don't make us look bad by saying it was.
[–]BlueThief -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
No.
[–]eggshan -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
If you were smart you would know that 9/11 had nothing to do with religion. Wow even atheists are ignorant.
[–]buckybone 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
They used religion as an excuse, and bin Laden was influenced by Sayyid Qutb's views on Islam.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
No they didn't. You literally just made that up(kinda like the bible AM I RITE?). They explicitly said it was because of US imperialism and hegemony in the Middle East.
[–]Malizulu -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
Imagine No Dick Cheney think tanks:
Section V of Rebuilding America's Defenses, entitled "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force", includes the sentence: "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor" (51)
Source: Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategies, Forces, and Resources For a New Century, September 2000, archived from the original on 24 January 2009, retrieved May 30, 2007
[–]zzzzzzzzzzyx -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
Lennon spoke of peace and happiness to all the world, let's just hope they don't decide he's the son of god god in about 300 years.
[–]shaihalud -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
i think there should be a very defined differentiation between religion, and the interpretation of god and his disciples
[–]emr1028 -14 points-13 points-12 points 8 months ago
9/11 had almost nothing to do with religion...
I find it very hard to believe that those men would have flown a plane into a building, killing thousands of innocent people in the process, without the motivating factor of their faith.
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 8 months ago
That's because you're completely ignorant of the history of US interventionism in the US and want to be an "edgy" atheist. Their faith was incidental at best; it had everything to do with US imperialism and hegemony in the region.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago*
I'm completely ignorant of US interventionism? Where do you get off saying something like that when you know nothing about me. Most of what I study is World History, INR, and Terrorism. I know about the larger geopolitical motivations behind the attacks.
Yes, the big guys who designed the attacks did have political motivations. However, they use the religion to motivate the people conducting the attacks. My father is a counterintelligence officer in the Military who has experience in counterterrorism in Pakistan. my stepmother is an ex-muslim and currently works as a counterterrorism expert with the government. I often speak with them at length about their work, so, yes, I do know a little bit about this subject.
EDIT: Also, here is one of Bin Laden's more famous quotes:
In compliance with God’s order, we issue the following fatwa [religious injunction] to all Muslims: The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies—civilians and military—is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa mosque and the holy mosque [in Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim.
Though it is about foreign occupation of their land; the extremely commanding religious foundation of this quote shows that they are using Religious justification for their actions.
[–]onus111 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
Really? Who do you think gave incentive to those who hijacked the planes? What do you think they screamed before impact? Where do you think they hoped to go after doing their "good deed"? Conspiracy bullshit aside, the religious justification for the violence on 9/11 is undeniable.
[–]emr1028 -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago
...
The stated motivations for 9/11 were: US Military presence in Saudi Arabia, crippling sanctions on Iraq, and US support for Israel. It's entirely geopolitical and has almost nothing to do with religion. Read a book, cure ignorance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motives_for_the_September_11_attacks
[–]squigs 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
You make a good point. While I agree their motivations were clearly political, I wonder if it would have been possible without religion.
These people clearly were rational enough to work out a plan to hijack 4 planes and destroy several US landmarks. I can't think of anything that would radicalise them as much as religion.
[–]onus111 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
They may have been motivated by politicians, but their rationalization was definitively religions. Are you really arguing that, the moment before impact, the agents that hijacked the planes screamed, "In the name of globalization and provoking the United States!"? No. It was, "allahu akbar" and that is why so many people are xenophobic and stereotype MUSLIMS as mad-bombers.
[–]onus111 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Really? Ignorance? Did you even read the link you provided? Look into Fatwa and see the flaws for yourself - they are linked in the one you gave. Cure your own ignorance and, while you're at it, stop being a presumptuous twat.
lol this is why nobody takes this sub seriously, even other atheists. its a bunch of Edgy Teen Redditors who are clueless about the world around them.
It's really worrisome that I can't tell who you are really referencing here.. But, in all honesty, I'm new to this and so far it's been pretty good! Just joined reddit a couple days ago and I am really happy with the overall community.. if that helps alleviate your concern at all..?
Regardless of whether or not religion was a cause of 9/11, the event has sparked more religious intolerance (specifically towards Muslims) in America.
[–]emr1028 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
That has nothing to do with the picture. The picture said imagine no religion, and showed a picture of the WTC. The 9/11 attacks were a geopolitical event, and were not motivated by religion.
The motivation behind the attacks is up for debate.
Like I said, even if the cause of the attacks was not religion, the event still incited intolerance against Islam in America.
In the 1998 fatwa, Al Qaeda identified the Iraq sanctions as a reason to kill Americans: "despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation....On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims: The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies—civilians and military—is an individual duty for every Muslim..."
[–]2011tyos -2 points-1 points0 points 8 months ago
yes his is!
[–]funkymonkeyq -2 points-1 points0 points 8 months ago
ha, that's what she said... :-)
[–]iluvemmy -2 points-1 points0 points 8 months ago
Imagine building 7 never being intentionally demolished in a controlled demolition....
[–]fascistgases -8 points-7 points-6 points 8 months ago
Honestly, fuck you. You have proven with this post that you don't need to be religious to be a bigot.
[–][deleted] 8 months ago
[deleted]
[–]Callumlfc69 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
Shows how much you know about music my friend.
[–]clutch_944 -5 points-4 points-3 points 8 months ago
who cares. fuck the beatles
[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 months ago
That's... not how the song goes.
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
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