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[–]somepersonsname 37 points38 points ago

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I cant find anything saying Mark Chapman kill Lennon for religious reasons. Just the catcher in the rye.

[–]philge 36 points37 points ago

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From the book Let Me Take You Down: Inside the Mind of Mark David Chapman,the Man Who Killed John Lennon by Jack Jones:

"I would listen to this music and I would get angry at him, for saying that he didn't believe in God... and that he didn't believe in the Beatles. This was another thing that angered me, even though this record had been done at least 10 years previously. I just wanted to scream out loud, 'Who does he think he is, saying these things about God and heaven and the Beatles?' Saying that he doesn't believe in Jesus and things like that. At that point, my mind was going through a total blackness of anger and rage. So I brought the Lennon book home, into this The Catcher in the Rye milieu where my mindset is Holden Caulfield and anti-phoniness."

[–]mattjackson4444 2 points3 points ago

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Isn't Holden Caufiled an athiest?

[–]philge 6 points7 points ago

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Here's a quote from Holden:

"In the first place, I'm sort of an atheist. I like Jesus and all, but I don't care too much for most of the other stuff in the Bible. Take the Disciples, for instance. They annoy the hell out of me, if you want to know the truth. They were all right after Jesus was dead and all, but while He was alive, they were about as much use to Him as a hole in the head. All they did was keep letting Him down. I like almost anybody in the Bible better than the Disciples. If you want to know the truth, the guy I like best in the Bible, next to Jesus, was that lunatic and all, that lived in the tombs and kept cutting himself with stones. I like him ten times as much as the Disciples, that poor bastard. "

[–]OJSlaughter 13 points14 points ago

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The man was mentally ill!

Religion had nothing to do with it, even if you say that religion was his motive: the only reason he interpreted his beliefs like that was due to his metal illness.

[–]thatzombiepunk 12 points13 points ago

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I thought we addressed the mentally ill thing. He said the man was a religious nut. somepersonsname made a remark implying that the killer wasn't religious, and then philge quoted a documented source where it says he is and that's it. I don't understand where you're coming from with the "He was mentally ill!" thing. Sorry if it just wooshed me or something I'm sick and have been studying for finals all day. bleh.

[–]mme_deviance 1 point2 points ago*

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As someone who was engaged to an atheist who developed schizophrenia, mental illness can make you religious. He bought and read the Bible and thought Jesus was giving him messages through it. Just an example that sometimes the "nuttiness" can come before the religion.

[–]OJSlaughter -1 points0 points ago

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He was religious, I was just saying that it was mental illness that made him interpret his religion in that way.

I was saying to not blame the religion for the tragedy!

You didn't miss anything, I just wasn't too clear :)

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points ago

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Ok, let's explore the alternate reality where Chapman wasn't religious.

Lennon : "I don't believe in god."

Chapman : "Not a fuck is given."

Did you get your tickets for the '83 Beatles reunion tour?

[–]d0nu7 2 points3 points ago

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Check and mate.

[–]Srsninja 4 points5 points ago

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Religion is a mental illness in itself. The idea that humanity can't handle it, that we need some sort of invisible protector.

[–]OJSlaughter -3 points-2 points ago

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Humanity is capable of some rather brash things though!

Consider this: you are an animal, we all are. We are all subscribed to morales, justice and society, blindly following the example of others, is religion all that bad?

[–]Srsninja 2 points3 points ago

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We are all subscribed to morales, justice and society, blindly following the example of others, is religion all that bad?

Yeah, it is. Because it preaches murder and hate, religion exists to seperate people.

Not all of us are in 'it' for the morals. I only participate in society because I want to see how far it can go and how I can help take it.

[–]Anteres 1 point2 points ago

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Yes. Religion is bad. Very bad. When something encourages discrimination and murder simply because it doesn't agree with that person or people, that thing is bad. While there are some good things that some religions say, there are a lot more bad things that it promotes and encourages, or outright demands from it's believers. Look through a history book, and then ask yourself if religion is all that bad. Or better yet, read a religious tome cover to cover. You will find more hate mongering than morally positive messages.

[–]philge 2 points3 points ago

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Well maybe people shouldn't hold beliefs based on ancient literature that is open to vastly and wildly different interpretation.

[–]OJSlaughter -4 points-3 points ago

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They are within there rights to and many get courage and solace from the literature. I'm just saying, don't be a dick! Respect all other religions or you are just as bad as the Religious Nuts...

[–]Srsninja 10 points11 points ago

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Respect all other religions or you are just as bad as the Religious Nuts...

This is not true, sorry. Obviously everyone should be free to do as they wish, but respect? No.

I will not respect an organization that has killed over 100,000 people for witchcraft. I will not respect an organization that allows rape and honor killings.

I will not respect people who don't respect themselves.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago*

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There are plenty of religions with texts that insist on not involving themselves in the lives of non-believers

Ill respect those. Not the Abrahamic ones

Believe what you want, but dont immediately assume you deserve respect for beliefs that have demonstrably hurt people in my country. Im willing to bet you dont respect people who believe Elvis is alive, you laugh at them behind their back and call them crazy

[–]OJSlaughter -1 points0 points ago

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I suppose I do come from a rather secular country (UK) where religion really has no impact on us: apart from some rather outlandish displays by members of certain religious sects.

Still I stand by it: people need to ignore all the bullshit and learn to respect each other. We would all be better off without the drama and conflict

[–]Foucatswim -1 points0 points ago

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I find it funny that you're being logical and nonhateful in your posts, and they keep downvoting you. I mean, to me, it seems that they're downvoting you for not blaming everything on religion. Ah that's pretty golden. You're a good guy, OJ, a good guy. Not like the rest of these jags.

[–]OJSlaughter 0 points1 point ago

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Exactly my point: don't trust some of the irrational people on this site!

:)

[–]somepersonsname 2 points3 points ago

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Thanks for that.

[–]philge 2 points3 points ago

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No problem. I believe that religious conviction was a big contributing factor to Chapman's motive.

[–]nyuncat 3 points4 points ago

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If you're basing this on the quote you posted above, couldn't it have been about Lennon not believing in the beatles just as much as him not believing in Jesus? There doesn't seem to be enough here to classify Chapman as a religious nutjob. I'd stick him in the category of general nutjob.

[–]Freak8206 1 point2 points ago

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in fact chapman was a huge Beatles fan. From what I have read, the thing that angered him most was that he felt John was being hypocritical for the line "imagine no possessions" when he was one of the biggest names in the world and could have just bout anything he wanted. This is what I've read and found, and while I don't think it's wrong, it could be.

[–]paraedolia -4 points-3 points ago

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I thought he was trying to impress Jodie Foster, and David Bowie was next on the hitlist if he missed John Lennon?

[–]Alyeska2112 11 points12 points ago

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[–]paraedolia 1 point2 points ago

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That's it! Damn I wish the outcomes of those two assassination attempts had been reversed.

[–]philge -2 points-1 points ago

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It's possible. All I'm saying is that religion certainly played a part in it.

[–]BuckyDuster 0 points1 point ago

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Yeah, me too. I find no hard evidence that Mark David Chapman was religious. I agree that Mark David Chapman was a nut and I am a fan of John Lennon.

[–]tahollow 0 points1 point ago

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I've also read that when he shot Lennon he was found with over 15 hours of Beatles music on his person and told police god told him to shoot John Lennon. I don't have a source other then it was in a class I took at the university. Religious intent or not the fucker was crazy.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points ago

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John Lennon knew too much... secret societies had to take him down

[–]maldio -1 points0 points ago

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The JAMs?

[–]3rdgearisheaven 2 points3 points ago

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I was the Dreamweaver, but now I'm reborn. I was the Walrus, but now I'm John. And so dear friends, you'll just have to carry on. The dream is over.

RIP John.

[–]JoyStain 6 points7 points ago

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No religion? We would find other reasons to kill each other.

[–]philge 3 points4 points ago

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We certainly would, and I don't believe that can ever be stopped. If we want to make the world a better place however, a good start would be to toss this wicked and twisted religious superstition that is so heinously disguised as morality.

[–]Dustin_00 1 point2 points ago

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I rather don't like this pic as it hides the social and economic injustice the US enables corporations to wield against those with fewer resources.

Those towers stood as the pinnacle of unethical greed, western economic dominance, and will to extract every resource from the rest of the world without proper compensation.

Even without religion, 100s of millions have much to complain about western society.

[–]philge 2 points3 points ago

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Pinnacle of unethical greed? Interesting.

[–]Dustin_00 0 points1 point ago

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[–]Mrs_Boxdog 1 point2 points ago

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Oh, when I read that it was a tiny bit like hearing it for the first time all over again.

Chapman was plain fucked in the head.

[–]Mallack 1 point2 points ago

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My name is Lennon and this is giving me a huge ego trip

[–]simpletonlol 3 points4 points ago

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I love John Lennon, his attitude, and the Beatles, so this has my upvote. However, as a history major with a focus in U.S. foreign relations this picture is what I would expect from Americans. 9/11 had very little to do with religion. It was mostly direct retaliation due U.S. Cold War foreign policy.

The CIA formed and funded the terrorist organizations to fight the Soviet Union and stop the spread of communism. As long as the terrorists were anti communist, they would be recruited, regardless of religion, politics, etc.

The U.S. fucked them over, yanked their chains, and committed countless covert activities frequently during the duration of the Cold War. Eventually groups like the Taliban and the mujahideen got fed up and retaliated with attacks on embassies and U.S. military institutions, leading up to 9/11. The terrorists just happened to stoop that low and inflict civilian casualties, but its no different then U.S. foreign policy was towards the end of the Cold War: shock and awe, regardless of the casualties.

TL;DR - Blowback. Get informed people.

[–]shaggyzon4 -2 points-1 points ago

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You were doing great - until you decided to conclude your post with a sarcastic TL;DR.

Honestly, the information you provided is insightful. It's the reason I come to reddit. However, the condescending TL;DR largely negates your credibility. People don't like to be insulted. They just think "Oh, this guy is a dick, so I'll just ignore his comment." I appreciate the fact that you spent time studying the real history of the U.S., but if you don't present in a palatable manner, people are likely to ignore your salient points.

[–]simpletonlol 1 point2 points ago

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I mean no insult, as most are ignorant when it comes to foreign policy. Not pernicious ignorance, but just a lack of knowledge on the subject.

[–]shaggyzon4 0 points1 point ago

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I wasn't insulted. And I understand your frustration. My personal experience has taught me not to combine my rants with my "public service announcements", though. After all, we are all ignorant of something. I certainly wouldn't go into r/science and rant at someone for not being able to solve a differential equation. I wouldn't say,'Get informed, people. Calculus has been around for hundreds of years.' Yet, compared to the complexity of social issues, calculus is easy. The solution is algorithmic. Mathematics problems are...doable and solvable. Addressing a social issue is much more difficult. Many people think that they've studied history - they don't realize that they have only read biased accounts and misinformation. People like you and I are left in the unenviable position of telling them that everything they know is total bullshit. It's not an easy job, and I respect the fact that you are willing to share your considerable knowledge of history with the folks here on reddit. Also, please keep in mind that Americans are fed this bullshit from age 5 to age 18, in public schools and the mass media. I am an American, and I can tell you this - it's difficult to find anyone in an American high school who hasn't been brainwashed in this regard. So...try to remember that you are fighting against 12-13 years of mental conditioning. It's tough...nearly as ingrained as religion. (After all, in America...religion, history and patriotism walk hand-in-hand-in-hand down the halls of our schools.) TL;DR: Americans are often brainwashed.

[–]philge -3 points-2 points ago

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I've explained this several times now. It does not matter whether or not the attacks were motivated by religion. The huge number of Americans believe that these attacks are just Muslim hatred against Christians. This belief has caused hatred and Islamaphobia across America. So it doesn't matter what the purpose of the attack was, the fact of the matter is that Muslims are being persecuted in America because of it, and they are being persecuted by ignorant Christians. This IS a religious issue.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

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You're only backpedaling after being called out on your ignorance. That's obviously not the message this image intends to send.

[–]philge -1 points0 points ago

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Thank you for letting me know what my intentions are.

[–]simpletonlol 0 points1 point ago

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Let me rephrase my TL;DR TL;DR - Get informed, ignorant Christians.

[–]EvOllj 1 point2 points ago

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the dirt under my toenails is bigger than jesus. when compairing, aim high.

[–]asharkey3 1 point2 points ago

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Is there proof that the killer did it for religious reasons? Or is this just someone using a tragic event as a scapegoat?

[–]philge 4 points5 points ago

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He didn't do it explicitly for religious reasons, but Chapman has stated that Lennon's views on Jesus and God did make him very angry.

[–]asharkey3 0 points1 point ago

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ah, point conceded

[–]ZeeHanzenShwanz 1 point2 points ago

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Hmm I don't think the world trade center massacre is an appropriate representation of the message Lennon was trying to give. The terrorists who did this did not do it because of their religious beliefs, they did it because they were pissed off at the US govt and its citizens. Yes they may have been very religious people, but to imply that there is a correlation between the two is misinformed and misconstrued.

If you really want to break it down, let's take the "imagine there's no countries, nothing to kill or die for" line. Because that's really what these bastard terrorist were killing for. The sovereignty of their country, that the US had taken away from them with their military occupation, and bombings which killed many innocent civilians.

[–]philge 0 points1 point ago

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No one seems to be reading the comments. I've explained this probably five times now: It does not matter whether or not the attacks were motivated by religion. A large number of Americans believe that these attacks were just Muslim hatred against Christians. This belief has caused hatred and Islamaphobia across America. So it doesn't matter what the purpose of the attack was, the fact of the matter is that Muslims are being persecuted in America because of it, and they are being persecuted by ignorant Christians. This IS a religious issue. Believe me, I live in the Bible Belt. When people see a hijab or any sort of head-wear that is foreign to them, and brown skin, they immediately think "Muslim" and then "Terrorist!"

[–]ZeeHanzenShwanz 0 points1 point ago

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Right, well i'm in agreement with you in that it has bred a sea of ignorant and thoughtless reasoning, but the message I construe from the image is that the twin towers would still be there if there was no religion, and I definitely do not think that is true. I see your point that, all too often, people wage war based on falsified beliefs, and it is a damn shame that so many lives are lost this way but the amalgamation of religion and the WTC just doesn't strike a logical chord with me.

[–]SuperSaucyBiscuit 0 points1 point ago

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He did it because he wanted popularity for killing Lennon. This is why if you notice any official document released about the Beatles they will always leave his name out.

[–]Modpunkoi 0 points1 point ago

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Darby Crash also died today, don't forget the Germs.

[–]maldio 0 points1 point ago

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John Malkovich and Donny Osmond were both born today, another cosmic juxtaposition.

[–]mikewazowski333 0 points1 point ago

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I miss John Lennon so much. Despite not being alive at the same time. If it wasn't for him I'm not sure who I'd be today, let alone if I'd be an atheist.

[–]El_Sid 0 points1 point ago

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Seriously is there a connection between the twin towers and religion?

[–]junkeee999 -1 points0 points ago

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Oh for fuck's sake. You're going to pin Chapman's craziness on religion?

Sometimes this subreddit is really good. This is not one of those times. This is why it does not have higher standing around here.

[–]hollingm 6 points7 points ago

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Oh for fuck's sake, educate yourself about the man's religious zealotry before you post a comment.

[–]tynich 2 points3 points ago

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He said he believed it was a contributing factor. Respect other people's insights, asshole.

[–]junkeee999 -2 points-1 points ago

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Why should I respect other insights when they're wrong? Chapman would have been a fucking loony whether he was Christian, Muslim, Jew or atheist.

[–]philge 6 points7 points ago

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I don't think he would have been enraged about Lennon's "more popular than Jesus" comment if he was a Jew, or atheist.

[–]junkeee999 -1 points0 points ago

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But he would have been just as crazy. If not John Lennon it would have been somebody else.

[–]philge 4 points5 points ago

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It's possible, but the fact is that he is a Christian, and he did comment on how enraged he was on Lennon's comments about God and Jesus.

Let's not start talking about hypothetical situations here.

[–]junkeee999 -3 points-2 points ago

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His comments on God and Jesus...and the Beatles. Are we conveniently forgetting that part?

[–]philge 4 points5 points ago

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We're not conveniently forgetting anything. Chapman was upset about Lennon's commentary on God. I'm not saying that there weren't other factors involved.

[–]junkeee999 -1 points0 points ago

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All I'm saying is, the quoted text talked about him being mad at Lennon's statements about God, Jesus, AND the Beatles. One of these three gets dropped. Hmm.

And why does it get dropped? Because it serves to illustrate that Chapman was nutty and he might as well been mad at Lennon's comments on Mickey Mouse.

This whole thread is pointed at saying religion killed John Lennon. That is insane.

[–]philge -1 points0 points ago

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That's actually not what the whole thread is about. The main point is to imagine John's ideas about no religion. I included the fact that his killer was a religious nut to illustrate the irony involved.

I am only pointing out that religion was a contributing factor, and I have provided my evidence. I have said several times now that religion was not the only motive.

[–]tynich 2 points3 points ago

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Why should you respect other insights even if they are wrong? Because you'll do nothing but cause argument when you try to belittle other people's opinions. Provoking someone because you have a different opinion/belief will probably end up bloody for you one day. Good luck with that.

[–]Arcanorum -4 points-3 points ago

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Rewriting history 31 years later to support a stupid claim is not the same as an 'insight'. Chapman was nuts, religion didn't make him nuts and it certainly didn't make him kill anyone. His own fucked up brain chemistry did that.

[–]philge 2 points3 points ago

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Who is rewriting history? I've stated only that religious conviction was one of many contributing factors, and I've cited the evidence for it. This is my speculation based on the evidence at hand. You may agree or disagree, but I certainly have not said anything fallacious.

[–]Arcanorum -4 points-3 points ago

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You cited 1 passage from 1 book written more than a decade after the incident at hand. The passage you cited is a rambling, incoherent mess of thought coming from a deranged man. What that passage proves is Chapman was nuts. PERIOD.

[–]philge 3 points4 points ago

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Chapman stated that he was angry about Lennon's commentary on God. That's all there is to it. The murderer himself said that this was one of the reasons he was angry with John. What more do you need?

[–]Arcanorum -4 points-3 points ago*

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He also said that one of his reasons had to do with Catcher in the Rye. Do we now consider literature to be a contributing factor? Or should we see Salinger himself as a contributing factor? He said that Lennon's statement about not believing in the Beatles was a reason as well. Are the Beatles or Lennon himself a contributing factor? Or is everything he said just the disjointed rambling of a crazy man?.

If you are going to take the religion part of the quote seriously because it came straight from Chapman, then all the rest of the quote should be taken just as seriously. The problem with that is no one takes the rest of the quote seriously because it's the ramblings of a sick man. So why treat the one part that /atheism will upvote as being a true/resonable statement?

EDIT: If the title of your post was 'In Memory of John Lennon, who was shot dead on this day 31 years ago by a Literature/Music Nut. Lennon, you are bigger than Jesus.' everyone would agree its a retarded post. But put in 'religious' and you get instant upvotes.

[–]philge 3 points4 points ago

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I consider all of these things contributing factors.

[–]Arcanorum -2 points-1 points ago

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If Catcher in the Rye/Salinger/Lennon/Beatles/religion were all contributing factors then why hasn't every person who's dealt with the same media had a reaction similar to Chapman's? The reason why they haven't is because the only factor here is Chapman's mental illness. Everything else is irrelevant.

[–]philge 2 points3 points ago

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Well, upon examination by psychologists, he was declared fit to stand trial. If the only factor was mental illness, then he would be in a mental institution and not a prison.

[–]pipenho 0 points1 point ago

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Do you really think that the 9/11 attacks were done because of religion? I think that they were political reasons instead of religious...

[–]ELNOOBSTER 1 point2 points ago

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I'm reading this book "9/11 Wars", and it goes in depth into the reasons behind the attacks and what happened after the attacks.

9/11 attacks were done to get shit started basically. The intent was to radicalize parts of the islamic world into jihad against the muslims countries governments and the west. In OBL's view this required a theatrical and massive terrorist attack, a view that wasn't shared by everyone in al-qaeda. This radicalization would eventually lead into a block of strict islamic countries in the middle east - a new caliphate if you will.

Now as we saw, this is essentially what came to be. The attack and wests response did in fact increase the jihadist movement 100-fold. But even that wasn't enough to reach al-qaedas goal. One of the reasons it didn't work is that while at the beginning many were symphatetic (in the islamic countries) towards OBL and the 9/11 attacks, the support for these tactics decrease rapidle the closer to your home the terror attacks happen. Like we saw in Iraq, people get tired of muslims killing muslims in a few years.

You have to understand that in the view of some muslims politics, law and religion are inseparable, so it's impossible to explicitly state all the factors. But the studies on how someone becomes an extremist and travels to another country to fight jihad .. it has a really strong religious component.

[–]philge -2 points-1 points ago

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The motivation behind the attacks is up for debate. I believe that there were a number of factors behind the event, both religious and political.

Even if the cause of the attacks was not religion at all, the event still caused religious intolerance towards Islam in America that still goes on today.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points ago

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No it's not really up for debate. They were explicitly because of US imperialism and hegemony in the Middle East. The religion of the hijackers was incidental at best.

[–]philge 0 points1 point ago

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It certainly is up for debate as one surely cannot know the motives of another.

[–]Beard_of_life -2 points-1 points ago

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Well, just a nut, really. They were crazy, and not because of religion. They happened to be religious sometimes, but their craziness was separate from it.

[–]Arcanorum 1 point2 points ago

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I'm so sick of reasonable/neutral comments getting downvoted around here. You said nothing worthy of a downvote, but no one around here likes hearing that religion isn't responsible for every single bad thing in the world.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points ago

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Yup. Edgy Teen Atheist Just As Ignorant As Stupid Christians He Denounces

[–]slackerdc 0 points1 point ago

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Religious nuts are responsible for a ton of bad things but killing John Lennon wasn't one of them. Don't make us look bad by saying it was.

[–]BlueThief -1 points0 points ago

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No.

[–]eggshan -1 points0 points ago

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If you were smart you would know that 9/11 had nothing to do with religion. Wow even atheists are ignorant.

[–]buckybone 0 points1 point ago

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They used religion as an excuse, and bin Laden was influenced by Sayyid Qutb's views on Islam.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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No they didn't. You literally just made that up(kinda like the bible AM I RITE?). They explicitly said it was because of US imperialism and hegemony in the Middle East.

[–]Malizulu -1 points0 points ago

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Imagine No Dick Cheney think tanks:

Section V of Rebuilding America's Defenses, entitled "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force", includes the sentence: "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor" (51)

Source: Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategies, Forces, and Resources For a New Century, September 2000, archived from the original on 24 January 2009, retrieved May 30, 2007

[–]zzzzzzzzzzyx -1 points0 points ago

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Lennon spoke of peace and happiness to all the world, let's just hope they don't decide he's the son of god god in about 300 years.

[–]shaihalud -1 points0 points ago

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i think there should be a very defined differentiation between religion, and the interpretation of god and his disciples

[–]2011tyos -2 points-1 points ago

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yes his is!

[–]funkymonkeyq -2 points-1 points ago

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ha, that's what she said... :-)

[–]iluvemmy -2 points-1 points ago

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Imagine building 7 never being intentionally demolished in a controlled demolition....

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]Callumlfc69 6 points7 points ago

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Shows how much you know about music my friend.

[–]clutch_944 -5 points-4 points ago

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who cares. fuck the beatles

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points ago

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That's... not how the song goes.