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top 200 commentsshow all 457

[–]fapestniegd 91 points92 points ago

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Because it's not a gay gene, it's a really-really-really-attracted-to-men gene that causes maternal aunts that carry it to have more children, even when scarce resources might cause a woman who does not carry it to reproduce.

http://www.livescience.com/2623-gays-dont-extinct.html

It's actually a trait that can keep bloodlines going when scarce resources would usually make the line die out. Because the women carrying it tend to take the opportunity to "try and reproduce" more often.

Also, it's FABULOUS!

[–]mossyskeleton 46 points47 points ago

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What about gay women?

[–]dcid 79 points80 points ago

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Women are hot, thats why gay women.

[–]Forgototherpassword 7 points8 points ago

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[–]GooglesUrComment 5 points6 points ago

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[–]Emiraly 8 points9 points ago

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Kinda odd, no clue, but every time I saw a statistic thrown around for homosexuality in ALL animals its about 1-10% with some species having like 60%. I always assumed it was something that would occur naturally within a population.

[–]gigashadowwolf 1 point2 points ago

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I remember reading something where women tend to all be genetically bisexual.

If you think about it, there is no evolutionary reason for women to have developed sexual preference. They don't have refractory periods to worry about, they don't need to pick male mates as males usually picked them instead. They just need to be attractive to males and form networks for survival, bisexuality would be an evolutionary boon in a lot of ways for females.

[–]trex88 0 points1 point ago

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Id assume same gene just for men

[–]NowTheyTellMe 9 points10 points ago

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.. so if you marry a women with a gay brother, there is an increased chance of your children being gay?

Don't worry, there is almost no way that tidbit will ever cause problems.

[–]Torch_Salesman 9 points10 points ago

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Son of a mother with a gay brother here. The only dick that I have ever been interested in is my own. Can't say I ever thought that I'd be in a situation where both of those sentences would be relevant at the same time.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points ago

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"Son of a mother with a gay brother" has a wonderful sort of cadence to it.

[–]8dash 2 points3 points ago

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Much more elegant than "I have a gay uncle".

[–]Tiby312 1 point2 points ago

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You can't use individual examples to show that he's wrong though. Doesn't prove anything. It's like saying "My grandfather smoked a pack a day and lived to be a hundred".

[–]Torch_Salesman 1 point2 points ago

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I don't believe I ever said he was wrong, I was just commenting on my own personal life.

[–]scorz 14 points15 points ago

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Blanchard found that with each older brother in a family, the odds increase by about a third that a boy born later will be gay.

This works towards OP's point in a way...

[–]necron30 7 points8 points ago

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For those who want to see the actual study.

[–]Irongate 1 point2 points ago

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That link is one example of why the world needs Google Translate to have an Academic -> Lazy Dumbass option.

[–]Synical__Sandwich 7 points8 points ago

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finally, some form of practical theory on it. I'm not gay or anything but the idea of homosexuality has been so perplexing to me, now I have some sort of vague idea of how it could arise.

[–]1541drive 3 points4 points ago

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...or anything. LOL

[–]Wondering_Wandering 1 point2 points ago

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It's not all genes though. Fancy Gentlemanism can be caused by genes, womb conditions and socialization or any combination of the three.

[–]Blupostit 1 point2 points ago

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So if it's a gene you can switch it on and off? ಠ_ಠ

[–]emmathewhore 1 point2 points ago

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Question for fapestniegd: I've never met anybody who knows this. It should be common knowledge. But what happens if we find out that some people are born pedophiles?

[–]Klemintina 3 points4 points ago*

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Hooray, someone who gets evolution! :)

[–]tiltz 1 point2 points ago

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Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but a 'gay gene' would not have been able to evolve because overpopulation has not been a problem for our race since the (relatively recent) industrial revolution/subsequent population boom.

[–]crpearce 0 points1 point ago

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overpopulation is dictated by resources in an environment. There have been several times humans have faced those limitations. So far though, an external force (changing environment, changes in living conditions, quality & access to food) has expanded our environmental and resource boundary.

but.. that doesn't mean humans will always be able to or have the goal posts moved in our favor.

[–]Mr_Monster 0 points1 point ago

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Unless...there actually IS a god...AND...he/she/it was all omnipotent and whatnot and during the "requirements and design" phase of our species it was added because the god knew we were eventually going to overpopulate because sex is AWESOME!!! It's like planned obsolescence, only with more gay sex and less wasteful manufacturing. Although, that would mean that the god INTENDED for there to be gays. Take THAT WBBC! Booyah!

[–]esdraelon 0 points1 point ago

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This makes a lot of sense. From an economic point of view, especially during hard times, having a healthy proportion of the population be gay is particularly useful. Reproductively-limited parter-pairings would benefit the survivability of the remaining offspring through social mechanism.

I guess the real test would be cross-species analysis. For instance, we would expect to see little or no homosexuality amongst non-social species, and homosexuality amongst social species.

Additionally, I suppose you would see a preference for homosexuality proportional to the "cost" of raising offspring. Social species for which offspring are more expensive (take longer or more resources to gestate and raise) would benefit most from unencumbered aunts and uncles.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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That's ONE theory that hasn't been resolved yet.

[–]brownbesack 6 points7 points ago

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That's not really how evolution works...

[–]biowtf 5 points6 points ago

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That's not how evolution works...

[–]ereldar 164 points165 points ago

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I've been thinking this since I was like 16. It makes perfect sense. Got it from an interesting fact I heard about fish. Some fish release a hormone, the larger they are, the more they release, when there is an over abundance of that hormone in the water, they stop growing. That is why those fish grow to the size of their tank then stop.

[–]zgh5002 70 points71 points ago

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That is why those fish grow to the size of their tank then stop.

Hobbyist fishkeeper here, this is not true at all. A smaller environment will cause stress on a fish that will stunt the growth of its body, but its internal organs continue to grow regardless. If a fish is kept in too small of a tank, it will squeeze itself to the death from the inside.

That's why a goldfish in a small bowl will only live for 2-5 years instead of the 25-30 years it could live if kept in a properly sized tank.

[–]Ridyi 50 points51 points ago

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That....is one of the saddest things I've ever heard.

[–]Taniwha_NZ 5 points6 points ago

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I think after 2 to 5 years in a bowl, the goldfish is glad to be out. Try to think of the positives!

[–]DIDNT_GET_SARCASM 10 points11 points ago

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I'm always lucky if I can get one to last a month

[–]Hara-Kiri 2 points3 points ago

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Do you put them in a shot glass?

[–]MinisterOfTheDog 2 points3 points ago

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Try not to fry them.

[–]Black_Apalachi 1 point2 points ago

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Well fuck. I thought I had some sort of super goldfish when I was a kid because it lived for like 8 years.

[–]jo12d477 0 points1 point ago

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What size tank would it take to give you that long of a lifespan?

[–]zgh5002 1 point2 points ago

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Depends on the breed, but you can't go wrong at 55g+. Goldfish are very messy fish, so a good filter goes a long way as well. I personally only keep saltwater fish, but I'm sure I could dig up some links for you if you were more interested.

[–]interkin3tic 8 points9 points ago*

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I don't think your theory fits the data very well. Out of all the humans born, most are alive today. Human population numbers are at an all time high. Were there a mechanism to turn people gay in response to overpopulation, it would be working in overtime. Instead, only 3 to 20% of the population seem homosexual to any appreciable degree. That's not enough to prevent overpopulation.

It's also not a very straightforward strategy for solving any real problem. Overpopulation is bad for species not because of numbers of individuals or population density, it's because population is associated with not getting enough to eat. And homosexuality doesn't mean one can't reproduce. There is evidence of a more direct method of dealing with the problems of overpopulation. Women who aren't getting enough calories tend to be infertile. In a situation of overpopulation, this may limit the ability of more mouths to be introduced into the population. Just a theory of course.

Fish population control isn't the best comparison in my opinion. Fish are pretty far removed from us when it comes to behavior. Mating too: many (most? all?) fish species undergo external fertilization, which is not very similar to human sexual reproduction.

Homosexual behavior is also observable in non-human primates, which are much closer relative in terms of genetics, behavior, and sexuality. Homosexual behavior in primates seems to be independent of population. Primates on the endangered species list do it, and obviously aren't suffering from overpopulation. Primates in zoos, with enough food, also display homosexual behavior (much to the dismay of some parents taking their kids to the zoo).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Just in regards your first paragraph (second sentence):

http://www.prb.org/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx

[–]Hara-Kiri 0 points1 point ago

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How does one primate know if the other ones gay too?

[–]interkin3tic 0 points1 point ago

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It's complicated and subtle, much like it is with humans identifying single, straight, or gay humans. Some of it we probably don't know because no one was raised as a non-human primate and understands the body language or grunts.

Some species, it's a means of enforcing social structure. THe top male will mount the subordinate males. So it doesn't matter if they're "gay," it is a matter of "I'm your boss, bend over."

Some other species maybe most with homosexual behavior, it's more bisexual than gay or straight. Such primates clearly aren't as concerned with labels and just have sex with whoever is there and available, not caring if it's a male or female.

[–]Hara-Kiri 0 points1 point ago

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I was thinking my question might have been too general to get a serious reply so I appreciate your helpful answer!

[–]iwantanewusername 10 points11 points ago

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there was a report on rats left in a cage with all the resources they needed and they stopped mating after a year. cant find it. ill keep googling til i do

[–]TeaBeforeWar 8 points9 points ago

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I know that study! It was a video on carrying capacity - watched it in highschool biology, but I've never been able to find it since.

Very interesting study, though - the rats never reached the full potential population capacity for the environment, due to a number of reasons. The rats tended to congregate at only some of the feeding stations, rather than using all of them, for one, plus a percentage of rats began to exhibit antisocial behavior - the ones you're thinking of. They were dubbed 'The Beautiful Ones' because they spent all their time compulsively grooming, to the point of never mating.

[–]iwantanewusername 5 points6 points ago

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YES! i knew i wasnt the only one! now if i could just find it.....

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]iwantanewusername 1 point2 points ago

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You sir a doing work for the greater good and we thank you.

[–]davidjs_uk 0 points1 point ago

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NIMH? Rats of NIMH? Was that study the inspiration for the book?

[–]Kaith 83 points84 points ago

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We don't exactly release "gay" hormones that increase the gay population of the populace as the number of people increases.

[–]Gregsterman 151 points152 points ago

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Do you have any references for this claim? Huh?

[–]Kaith 137 points138 points ago

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Dammit you've got me.

I'm actually a member of the Rainbow League. We developed the gay hormone and we're spreading it as I speak.

Tell Glenn Beck that it's too late...
we've already infected him.

[–]McShizzL 15 points16 points ago

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Damn. He was a good man.

[–]shazang 48 points49 points ago

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Now he's a really good man.

[–]gypsywaterbird 100 points101 points ago

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a fabulous man

[–]supergauntlet 11 points12 points ago

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Oh baby.

[–]shazang 0 points1 point ago

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Every man wants to be a macho, macho man!

[–]topgunson 12 points13 points ago

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I read that in a flamboyant fun voice.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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As opposed to? I keed...

[–]shazang 0 points1 point ago

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I have an understandable boner.

[–]Repyro 0 points1 point ago

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[–]32koala 11 points12 points ago

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The human vomeronasal organ, which in all other mammals is the organ which receives pheromone signals, is largely vestigial in humans. Paper: http://chemse.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/4/433.full.pdf+html

[–]eppursimouve 13 points14 points ago

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Well something is syncing all the menses in sorority houses.

[–]Yotsubato 1 point2 points ago

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I can just see the potential for disaster with 30-50 PMSing women concentrated together.

[–]32koala 0 points1 point ago

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The common explanation is selectivity bias. You never hear about the times they aren't synchronized. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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Just found this out recently. It's too bad, it makes for great 19th century advertisements.

[–]King-Babar 14 points15 points ago

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You're also not a fish, i assume.

Unless you're a gay fish? ...Kanye is that you?

[–]crabsis1337 3 points4 points ago

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you obviously don't understand what he was saying

[–]gongabonga 1 point2 points ago

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If it were such a mechanism, it doesn't work very well.

[–]hunch -1 points0 points ago

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Obviously you are not a republican.

[–]shittyartist 0 points1 point ago

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yeah but your parents and parents parents parents might have set the groundwork for something similar.

[–]BillyBreen 0 points1 point ago

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Oh yeah? So what do you call Pride parades? Those only happen in major cities.

[–]thecriminalmind 0 points1 point ago

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It's just negative feedback. An environmental condition triggers a response that inhibits the behavior which contributes to that environmental condition. There doesn't have to be a hormone or any chemical at work although i wouldn't rule it out, but for that matter subconscious psychological responses could be just as operative. Whether this is at work or not is a matter of scientific inquiry, but i wouldn't be surprised.

[–]deaglebro 4 points5 points ago

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I've always thought this too. Maybe someone should post this on /r/askscience so we can get some form of confirmation (if one exists)

[–][deleted] 27 points28 points ago*

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I shall come to you.

No. Not at all. Evolutionary processes of selection work on the individual level. Control of a population is not possible through limiting fitness in select individuals. More fit ones will just out-breed them, and you have the same scenario (basically, if an individual has the chance to screw over everyone else and reproduce more, the trait will be advantageous, despite the ill-effects to the population).

Edit: wording

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points ago

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Exactly. Most people don't understand that evolution doesn't work for the direct benefit of "society" or "the population". It works at the level of the individual (or, more specifically, the individual's genes).

[–]2skwb9 0 points1 point ago

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Actually, the contemporary darwin theory works on a genetic level with genes, not even individuals. But in essence you're still correct.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

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I alluded to that elsewhere, (when explaining the gay uncle theory) but yeah. I thought I would just take it one step at a time, because both are correct, just the individual must be qualified as being a unit often having multiple copies of multiple genes.

[–]Default_Human 0 points1 point ago

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I shall come to you.

I suppose that's flattering.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points ago*

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Please don't help spread this fish myth around. Fish stay small in a small tank because *they are too damn sickly from living in a tiny fish tank to grow to their full size. Picture locking a kid in a small room where you over feed it and come in every two weeks to shovel out some of the waste. That kid probably won't grow to be tall and healthy either.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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Everyone should look up 90 something Harvard Biologist and one of the greatest living scientists E.O Wilson. He says homosexuals actual increase the genetic fitness of those around them so that the genes of those related to them (who carry much more coding than just what is expressed with them) are perpetuated more. Otherwise why would homosexuals still be around? They are genetic altruism at work.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Still selfish actually.

The genes they carry are hypothesized to exist in non-expressed forms in their relatives. By helping their relatives, they may increase the reproduction rates of the individuals who carry "sleeper gay genes" (pardon the phrase). The gene is still working to produce more of itself, or else it would be weeded out.

[–]heavensclowd 0 points1 point ago

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What both you and the guy you responded to are fairly congruent (nit-picking words aside). The point is, in this case the "gay gene" wouldn't be inhibiting overpopulation, it would be promoting it-- it would only be explainable if the gay gene was leading to more people who have the gay gene or sleeper gay gene.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Are you a Harvard PHD and one of the worlds greatest living scientists? I didnt come up with this, just look up E.O Wilson's "Sociobiology" and "On Human Nature".

[–]Venjamin 2 points3 points ago

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So that's what gaydar picks up

[–]greenbowl 2 points3 points ago

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It makes no sense. There has never been an overpopulation problem during evolution, so there wouldn't be a trait developed in response to it.

[–]Alieu 4 points5 points ago

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Thing is though, homosexuality isn't a new thing. I don't think we were running the risk of overpopulation nigh 2000 years ago.

[–]Jezon 0 points1 point ago

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Humans have been straining the available resources for a long time. It's only thanks to revolutions in farming, sanitation, and infrastructure that has allowed us to balloon in size these last few hundred years.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points ago*

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Yeah, except evolution doesn't work like that.

Evolution always works on an individual level. If a trait benefits the population, but not the individual in anyway, it is likely to be bred out.

Edit: Wording

[–]Scatman_Crothers 14 points15 points ago

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Evolution works at the level of the gene. If it benefits that gene then it wil be passed on. This could be helping the gene by helping the population or by helping the individual.

[–]strategicambiguity 7 points8 points ago

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Except that if it gets passed on, it has failed as population control. And if it doesn't get passed on then it's never introduced to the gene pool.

[–]Black_Apalachi 0 points1 point ago

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Oh shit. This makes sense.

Okay, move along people. Nothing to see here.

[–]TeaBeforeWar 16 points17 points ago*

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If a trait benefits the population, but not the individual in anyway, it is likely to be bred out.

If that were true, bees and ants would never have evolved - populations wherein the individual workers have completely given up their ability to reproduce, in order to benefit the population, and therefore the chances of their queen to propagate their shared genes.

Genes that benefit the population can be propagated so long as they are recessive, or otherwise do not impede the reproductive capabilities of the entire the population. When the presence of non-breeders (of the same genetic line as the breeders) benefits the population more than additional breeders would, that genetic line has an advantage. In a highly community-based species such as ours, having a few non-reproducing uncles and aunts to aid community could easily be beneficial enough to keep the genetic predisposition around, buried recessively in the genes of their relatives.

[–]wooperlol 13 points14 points ago

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Bees and ants have a different genetic system. They are haploid, which means they are more closely related to their sisters than their offspring (weird huh?). Here is the wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ploidy

[–]chimpanzee 4 points5 points ago

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Except that naked mole rats have a similar social setup, so it's not just insects that can do that. Not to mention that multicellular life of any type operates on the same kind of system - all but a very few cells in such a creature give up any chance of significant reproduction in order to help those few specialized cells do their thing.

It comes down to the gene, not the individual animal per se, so helping close genetic relatives reproduce is nearly as good as reproducing yourself.

[–]YeshkepSe 1 point2 points ago

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More broadly, kin selection can be seen as a special case of trait groups. The interaction of specific traits in a population can yield tangible fitness benefits to an organism bearing that particular trait, yet don't require a reproductive reinforcement at every reproductive generation in order to promote survival of that group.

Imagine two possible traits within a species, which are mutually exclusive (an organism can only express one or the other of them). The ultimate output of these traits can be expressed as a behavioral strategy for evolutionary game theory (competing for abstract "fitness units"):

Group 1's rule: "In any interaction with a member of my species, cooperate if the expected slice of the fitness pie is 40 percent or greater -- otherwise defect." They'll help even for less than an even take, despite this putting them behind the other party.

Group 2's rule: "In any interaction with a member of my species, defect unless the expected slice of the pie is more than half." They'll cooperate if it benefits them preferentially, otherwise compete.

Five organisms gather together for a round of evolutionary game theory. Four are Group 2, one is Group 1. They each interact with all of the others one for iteration, and each time they must split the take of 10 fitness units.

At the end all the organisms of Group 2 have 6 fitness units each, because they refuse to cooperate with each other (no net benefit), but each one gets 60 percent of the stakes in their interaction with the Group 1 organism. The group 1 organism interacted every time, and so it winds up with 16 fitness units in all (four per encounter). It loses every individual play, but wins the game on points. The trait propagates in the species' population despite the loss.

Real organisms can easily find themselves acting as members of hundreds or even thousands of trait groups during their lifespans; moreover, trait groups can aggregate or disperse quite quickly in a complex lifeform, faster than reproductive cycles occur.

[–]Zanesan 0 points1 point ago

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Evolution occurs at the gene level. Though perhaps it would be more correct to say selection occurs at the level of the gene, but whatever. Consider a gene which codes for something like:

If see predator, then make self sacrificial distraction

Obviously, this is not at all beneficial for the individual. However, if that organism is part of a social group, it may not matter. If there are a sufficient number of other copies of the gene in the social group, and those other individuals realize a large enough boost in fitness given the individuals sacrifice (and therefore realize an increased probability of passing on the copies of the gene in them), it can be completely plausible for a gene to be detrimental to an individual and beneficial to a population.

[–]ncmentis -5 points-4 points ago*

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Other way around. Evolution works on the level of populations by definition. Trait success or failure is measured by its frequency in a population. Think of it this way, if a trait is harmful to the population, it will make breeding more difficult because there will be less individuals to breed with.

edit: although the OPs theory is a little far fetched. It would be a stunningly ineffective means of population control if that was its task.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points ago*

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Completely false. Evolution is observed on the level of populations. However, the mechanisms of evolution by natural selection (which was what we were discussing, rather than a random force like genetic drift or mutation) are always acting on individuals. The population changes, but as a result of forces on the individual level.

What would happen if an individual came along that could mate more than other individuals, but had traits that would lead to extinction? Answer? The species would go extinct.

Perhaps the confusion was when I was reformatting my original statement, I meant to say "on" rather than "as" and I dropped a "level". Putting them back in.

[–]OCPScJM2 11 points12 points ago

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What if having a gay sibling allowed a genetic line to produce more offspring?

The gay uncle?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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Only works if the uncle's homosexuality leads to two or more times as many offspring being produced than the uncle would if he were heterosexual.

(The 2x factor is because a "genetic line" isn't considered evolutionarily. You need to look at the level of the gene, and we only share ~50% genes with our siblings. Read "The Selfish Gene" if you want to know more)

[–]TeaBeforeWar 1 point2 points ago

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Of course, it's not necessary to produce more offspring if the benefit is stronger, healthier, more likely to succeed offspring. It isn't a pure numbers game, when just the ability to survive and thrive to create the next generation is part of the equation.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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True, but at some point the traits need to be producing real evolutionary gains in the form of more offspring. "Fitness" is really a transition currency that you eventually cash in on with more offspring at Generation X.

However, that cash-out needs to happen quickly (on the generation time-scale) or it has to be BIG. Because each successive generation shares only half as many genes with the original individual as their progenitors did, the increase in genetic offspring is halved with each generation.

[–]TeaBeforeWar 0 points1 point ago

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At the individual level, yes. When a gene provides only a small benefit, it's a coin toss whether it will survive long enough to propagate through the community.

But if it makes it that far, and even completely neutral genetic changes can be successful purely by chance, the presence of a gene with even a small beneficial influence can, over many generations, give a statistical advantage. And when every natural selection is a roll of the dice over dying of smallpox or being eaten by a wolf, any statistical advantage is a benefit and a step up over the guy without it.

[–]tallbrian 0 points1 point ago

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So in fact the OP was wrong and it would actually worsen the overpopulation issue?

[–]OCPScJM2 0 points1 point ago

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The children of the children could also gain an advantage.

[–]chimpanzee 0 points1 point ago

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One factor that you may be forgetting here is that people used to have a lot more kids than they do now, so the gay uncle would have a lot more siblings to help out, and also infant mortality because of things like starvation was a lot higher. Having one sibling out of 6 or 8 or so who's saving up resources, making social connections, and generally building up a reserve that can be shared with whichever of the others turns out to need it rather than focusing on the near-term concerns of building a family seems like it would have been a lot more valuable in those circumstances than it is now, when there's reliable infrastructure and at least some kind of public safety net available to most people who need it.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

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Exactly. However, the causes for homosexuality are not known, so a simple genetic explanation may not explain everything.

[–]heavensclowd 0 points1 point ago

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And if this hypothesis is true, then it isn't preventing overpopulation, it is promoting it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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Yeah, this isn't right. Read "The Selfish Gene"-- it's a good read and it'll teach you the difference. Evolution works at the level of the gene, not the population.

You share 50% of your genes with your children and 50% with your siblings so it's evolutionarily advantageous to help them. But your genes are very different from those of your next door neighbor (unless they're family :-p). It's not evolutionarily advantageous to promote the long-term survival and prosperity of anyone but yourself and your immediate kin.

Note: It gets tossed around a lot that all humans are "99.9% genetically identical", but that's a misleading statistic. That statistic refers to nucleotides, which are the building blocks of genes. We are not 99.9% identical at the level of the gene, which is what counts in evolution. That 0.01% nucleotide difference in nucleotides makes a HUGE difference in your biochemical makeup. The more you know!

[–]BaronVonDinosaur 3 points4 points ago

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The Selfish Gene is promotes a gene-centric view of evolution that Dawkins and others support. Dawkins rejects the idea of group selection, but it's not a settled issue. Dawkins has an appealing view because it attempts to be parsimonious. Group selection has appeal because of its explanatory power.

For example, some people have argued altruism is harmful to the individual but beneficial to the group, and it exists because of group selection. The connection between homosexuality and fertility in women could be explained in terms of group selection or genes. Whatever means help further the existence of particular genes will be beneficial. I don't have a strong view on this issue, but it's interesting.

[–]Taniwha_NZ 1 point2 points ago

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Not sure if you are serious, or even half-serious.

First of all, evolution is the gradual accumulation of genetic advantages over hundreds of generations (at least) within one species. If the gene mutation we are looking at is to be gay, then it immediately causes the death of that genetic line. Because gay people don't reproduce.

Evolution is an incredibly powerful force for species survival, but it's not fucking magic. If a species stops reproducing, there's not much evolutionary biology can do to spread this latest mutation around, is there.

However, for the sake of argument, I'll overlook that rather large hurdle and consider instead the time-scales involved:

The population of the earth in 1940 was 2.5 billion, according to the UN (via Wikipedia). It's now 7 billion, and by the year 2040, the average estimate is about 8.5 billion. I think that's probably a bit conservative.

So the earth's population will at least triple in the hundred years from 1940 to 2040. The overpopulation crisis will be well upon us by 2100, so that's 160 years after the population was perfectly sustainable.

But in 160 years, evolution hasn't even gotten it's eyes open yet, let alone woken up completely to the looming population problem. By the time the evolutionary process might come up with a genetic solution to our breeding, the world's population would be in the hundreds of billions... or (more likely) war, famine, and disease will have reduced the population on their own to a realistic level.

You've been 'thinking' about this since you turned 16? Seriously, if you are any older than 16 years and five minutes, you might want to look up 'thinking' and make sure it means what you think it does...

Unless I've just been masterfully baited and trolled, in which case I tip my hat.

[–]Khavos 1 point2 points ago

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Sounds really interesting, but how do you explain bisexuality?

[–]ereldar 0 points1 point ago

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Choice

[–]Khavos 0 points1 point ago

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Wow...Guess ignorance still exists...

[–]dekigo 0 points1 point ago

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i think that was a joke? hopefully?

[–]jacobman 0 points1 point ago*

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It doesn't seem to make that much sense really. Why not have a population that grows to its limit and then continues at equilibrium due to the excess dying off? There even seems to be an advantage to this since if your population ever falls below the equilibrium level that the environment can support the population would rebound quicker.

[–]3rdCultureKid 0 points1 point ago

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I've been thinking this too for a few years. It does make some sense.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]upandrunning 0 points1 point ago

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Increasing tolerance is the social aspect. Desire is the aggregate result of the biochemical processes within us. I believe that the reason we find a particular kind of person attractive is based primarily how we're wired, and there is some genetic influence here. It's not inconceivable that sexual orientation is little more than a natural variation that occurs along a spectrum, with a small number being exclusively homosexual or exclusively heterosexual.

[–]fuzzb0y 0 points1 point ago

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Using humans as an example, when you think about it it might not make sense. Regions around the globe that are responsible for increasing our current population (most, if not all developed countries have a declining population as of 2011) usually have a culture or society that prohibits and punishes homosexuality therefore repressing homosexuality where it is needed the most.

[–]NJlo 0 points1 point ago

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I remember a friend mentioning something about the 'gay hormones' or something similar being more likely to be released the more people are around you. This is one of the reasons larger cities have more gays than small towns he said. Kinda sounds like bull, but I'm curious if there's some truth to it.

[–]tavernkeeper 0 points1 point ago*

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Actually it makes no sense. If there were a cheater who stayed hetero, he would have more kids who would also be cheaters. Eventually the whole population would be cheaters.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago*

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Is unfaithfulness a genetic trait?

[–]tavernkeeper 0 points1 point ago

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Not cheater in that sense. I mean cheater as in someone who stays hetero even when there is high overpopulation. I say cheater because he is cheating the system of controlling overpopulation.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Ah, sorry for my ignorance and thanks for the explanation.

[–]gigabates 0 points1 point ago

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And then they could all run really fast. Oh, cheaters.

[–]Kaith 50 points51 points ago*

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This is a funny image; not a scientifically probable theory.

Some of the comments in here concern me.

There's no way that there would ever be a selection bias for homosexual tendencies in any organism.
EDIT: This part is false, read Kernel's reply.

Humanity has never been in a situation during its evolution where its ongoing survival is determined by having a certain portion of its populace being homosexual in order to prevent overpopulation.

And there's also the (slight) problem that those people who carry this so-called "gay gene" would be naturally selected against by, well, sex.
EDIT: Nope!

[–]KernelD 68 points69 points ago

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There's no way that there would ever be a selection bias for homosexual tendencies in any organism.

Incorrect. Some theorize that it was advantageous to have some homosexual members of the tribe as they would not attempt to breed, but would still be available to help raise kids and perform other tasks. As their siblings would be more likely to have successful offspring (due to the additional manpower available) and those siblings had very similar genes to the homosexual sibling, the homosexual trait would remain in the population (though never growing too strong as it would then become a disadvantage). Part of this is a hypothesis that the more children are already in the family, the more likely the next child is to be homosexual.

Of course, this is all conjecture. But at least it's plausible for it to be an advantageous trait. It wouldn't have been there so much for population control, though.

[–]Kaith 49 points50 points ago

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I feel like this now.

You have a good point! In fact, your comment led me to do more research into the current scientific hypotheses on the subject, many of which involve studies that indicate genetics likely plays at least some sort of role in homosexuality. Today I learned... :)

[–]Klemintina 36 points37 points ago

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That's awesome, I love it when people admit when they're wrong, it's really quite rare. You're open-minded, but no so open that you're brains fall out. You seem smart, wish I knew you in real life.

[–]ashleyschaeffer 1 point2 points ago

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Got to love scientists.

While we have our theories and laws, they are always being tested, questioned, and scrutinized. We should all be open to change given sufficient evidence to support the changes.

[–]Ironballs 0 points1 point ago

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This particular point of homosexuality is something /r/askscience would probably be a good place to discuss it in.

[–]sailfaster 1 point2 points ago

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eusociality in naked mole rats might be a good case to read up on, of course we have no way of knowing if the non-breeding classes of the rats are gay, but it does illustrate a deviation from the norm of all members of a species are competing for sex and reproduction.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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Also, bees.

[–]DoctorSpacemann 1 point2 points ago

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Isn't this referred to as the "Gay Uncle Hypothesis" or something along those lines?

[–]RustyRobot 1 point2 points ago

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Right. I feel like genetics may play a bigger role in some people's cases than others, but some it's completely irrelevant. Some gay people may have chose to be gay, while others had no choice.

[–]protendious 1 point2 points ago

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Yup, the evolutionary advantage of altruism is highly plausible and has its place in the theory of evolution.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]KernelD 0 points1 point ago

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I know it's not supposed to be related, but if you're trying to claim legitimacy via educational credentials, you could at least bother to form your sentences correctly.

I'm not trying to say that the idea that "more children == more likely to be gay" is necessarily accurate, it's just someone's random hypothesis. Though remember, a person's body changes from giving birth. These changes could, in some strange manner, influence the activation (or lack thereof) of a gene that promotes homosexual behavior. I've heard of stranger things in nature by far.

Of course, the first step would be to gather statistical data to see if the number of older siblings a homosexual has is notably higher than the number of older siblings a heterosexual has. If this were shown to be true, then one could probably gather funding to study why this is so, perhaps discovering some previously unknown influencing element on the development of a fetus (or a previously unknown effect of an existing influencing element). Unfortunately I have neither the time nor the resources to do this.

[–]servohahn 1 point2 points ago

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Statistically, the more male offspring a woman has, the more likely that male is to be homosexual. They believe it's partly because the mother's immune system builds up a resistance of sorts to a male embryo. It seems like it would be biologically pertinent given that women are more important to procreation than men.

[–]necron30 0 points1 point ago*

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study indicates that this line of reasoning is not the best evolutionary explanation (I mean it is not as parsimonious as it could be). Posits one that is even better (more parsimonious), IMHO.

EDIT: Part of study explains

hypothesis that the more children are already in the family, the more likely the next child is to be homosexual.

very well also.

[–]Thizzlbafool 0 points1 point ago

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Your theory is based off of robins/blackbirds (i forget which) which have some children that never leave the nest, they just help their parents. Consequently, the fitness of the parents is increased.

Maybe I just have a liberal bias, but most of the gay people I know seem to have a better understanding of themselves and other people (Why do girls like hanging out with gay guys? because they understand human emotions better IMHO) so it's not that far out of an idea to me. Even with humans they still bring something evolutionary to the table.

[–]YoungDekuTree 0 points1 point ago

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If you haven't already read the book: "Sex at Dawn," you totally should, you seem like the person who would really like it.

[–]wraitheon 4 points5 points ago

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I disagree. Homosexuality can be selected for, as it may confer benefits such as providing extra relatives to care for offspring or boosting fertility. Here's a summary.

Selection pressure aside, I believe acceptance of homosexuality would operate as a useful tool in slowing population growth. Other tools could include encouraging pet ownership over procreation and subsidizing birth control. These measures would be more benign and almost certainly less harmful than China's infamous and draconian "one child" law or the U.S. eugenics program.

However, a look at fertility rates around the world seems to show an inverse correlation with income, education and women's rights, so to really slow population growth, we'd need to somehow spread the wealth around.

EDIT: Fixed my markup

[–]RandomName13 1 point2 points ago

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Props for at least keeping your mistakes up for us all to view.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Another way that homosexual behavior could be helpful evolutionarily is that you have twice the options when it comes to mates. So if there's a male/female imbalance in the population, an animal can still find a mate to either help care for the offspring it already has or to survive long enough so that it can procreate. Also, the rule in non-human animals is "bisexuality" rather than strict, gold-star homosexual orientation, so it doesn't rule out procreative sex.

[–]lucas-hanson 8 points9 points ago

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WE'LL FUCK

ftfy.

[–]graymonster 5 points6 points ago

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It's not. That's not how evolution works. This only proves that reddit is full of 12 year olds who haven't taken enough science courses yet.

[–]livetobe 1 point2 points ago

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or any science courses yet.

[–]doublelen 1 point2 points ago

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I want to say this whenever anyone says the words "evolutionary mechanism" at all. Evolution isn't a conscious act. It isn't even an act. It's a statistical pattern.

[–]RadioMars 0 points1 point ago

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Upvotes for science.

[–]asldkfououhe 1 point2 points ago

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it's not

[–]Bryguy100 1 point2 points ago

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But homosexuality isn't new. The only difference is now we won't throw people in jail for being gay, it's only a societal change.

[–]antihumanminifesto 1 point2 points ago

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you obviously dont understand evolution

[–]Braziliger 1 point2 points ago

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Except that the gay has always been around. It's not a new phenomenon by ANY means - people just whine and cry and bitch and scream about it more now that we have television and the internet and things that amplify peoples opinions into everyone's faces. Gay people have been here for a looooooong time.

[–]420chiefofZEP 1 point2 points ago

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Its in our nature to reproduce, just like anything else. You dont see male lizards goin around humping each other. Plus things like condoms

[–]abiogenic 0 points1 point ago

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[–]kamakaro 1 point2 points ago

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hahahaha

[–]DrPedophile 1 point2 points ago

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Since Europe is more crowded than the US, is that why they're all gay?

[–]Leeroy909 1 point2 points ago

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Evolution does not work for the benefit/survival of the population/species. Nor does it work for the benefit of the organism.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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Yeah I always thought this idea was kind of stupid. The error is that it presumes that the process of natural selection would know beforehand how to prepare for an overpopulation crisis. How would it? Natural selection is dumb--it doesn't know anything, and it can't just pop a "good" gene like that out of nowhere. As far as natural selection goes, we are doing just fine.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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NO NO NO. This is an example of group selection theory. Evolution acts on individuals, and its effects are seen in populations. If a trait gives zero benefit to an individual, then it evolution cannot act on it, and the population does not benefit. Absolute altruism does not occur in nature.

[–]abeebitmybottom 2 points3 points ago

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Ctrl+F "Group selection". Upvote.

[–]abiogenic 2 points3 points ago*

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over-population could effect my sibling's offspring. their survival is in my benefit. therefore, not absolute altruism.

this is kin selection

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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The idea that the OP suggested is definitely group selection. The math simply doesn't work out. Kin selection might be at work, but kin selection is almost always a secondary driving force in evolution because reproductive fitness declines exponentially as you start moving away from direct parent-sibling relationships.

[–]Loji 2 points3 points ago

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No one has read Dawkins' "Selfish Gene"? While this is a funny post, evolution is not a group selection thing, it's by individual genes. Genes want to be passed on, ahem, specific genes want to be passed on. There is no benefit for a survival machine (human) to have it's genes not being reproduced, so there's no reason why it would occur.

[–]Indigomist 1 point2 points ago

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Ever since I read this in "The Forever War" it's always been an appealing idea to me:

"The veterans learn that to curb overpopulation, which led to worldwide class wars caused by inequitable rationing, homosexuality has become officially encouraged by many of the world's nations"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forever_War

[–]Lord_Bradford 4 points5 points ago

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I just toasted the air with the goblet of wine I am drinking while browsing Reddit and said to nobody in particular, "That it is, and a fabulous one at that." and took a drink followed by a drag of my cigarette. Cheers, sir or madame.

[–]HittingSmoke 1 point2 points ago

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I like you...

[–]Lord_Bradford 1 point2 points ago

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Well thanks, random stranger!

[–]gabriot 1 point2 points ago

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No... gay people don't pass their genes on. Perhaps you should study evolution and natural selection.

And either way... it's not like evolution has a mind of it's own.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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The Tragedy of Group Selectionism.

Relevant read, Evolution is never going to design something that "willingly" limits it's own success for the benefit of the group.

[–]Skepgnostic 1 point2 points ago

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Haha. Na, human's biotic potential follows an "exponential growth" pattern, not a "logical growth" pattern. We will continue to produce until something, typically extrinsic (and abiotic), Limits our growth. All organisms grow exponentially. Only social and environmental factors (such as an environment approaching a carrying capacity, or food limitations) cause logical growth, and is also seen within many animal species.

[–]wizrad 1 point2 points ago*

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Dunno if it has been posted already but... probably. Statistically speaking the more older male brothers you have the more likely you are to be gay. I've heard it say it increases anywhere between 5-30% each time. Link to an article.

The advantage would be this: You have an older brother who mates. Your genes (since you and him are basically the same on a biological level) are passed on. Score. And he has the twofold advantage of

1) not having to compete with his genetic twin (or mostly genetic. You guys had the same parents)

2) Since humans are social animals, you help him raise his kids. Plus younger kids have to learn how to be slightly more social so they make great friggin babsitters.

Also something to keep in mind: Statistically speaking, the oldest child is the largest and smartest child you will have. First of all the more children you have, the more it wears on your body. And the older you get the shittier your body is at feeding a fetus and making babies. And with that first child, you actually have time to give him attention. So he/she can learn stuff good like. And since he/she's gonna help you raise the other kids and teaching is a great way to learn. So you want that older child to breed. Odds are he's the strongest, smartest, and most genetically viable thing to spring forth from your loins. So what happens? Your other children are slightly gayer.

I don't know how this would apply to females but in males it makes sense. One male can knock up a bunch of females.

tl;dr: I'm sure it isn't quite "population control" so much as "we want the badass kids to make more badass kids."

Edit: changed some wording around so that it didn't sound silly.

[–]omdoks 0 points1 point ago

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Is it measurably true that older siblings are superior? I understand the reasoning but I have never heard that idea before.

[–]wizrad 1 point2 points ago

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Well, statistically speaking they have a leg up. But you don't have to take my word for it:

Maybe "superior" wasn't the best word for me to use. I should have said "have a higher IQ and are larger."

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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no

[–]bigshum 1 point2 points ago

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If it is it's not working. I think we may have to approach 50% homosexuality for this to make a difference. Preferably in Southern States and the North of England. Oh, and France.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]ReducedToRubble 3 points4 points ago

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But they're all hillfolk! Damn the hillfolk!

[–]Eat_sandwiches 1 point2 points ago

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I've had this thought for like the past few months! Glad I'm not the only one haha

[–]drivendreamer -1 points0 points ago

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This has been my hypothesis for a while actually. And it makes perfect sense

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]Roombafollower 2 points3 points ago

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For the main part (excluding surrogacy) they are not 'creating' a new child they are choosing to look after a child that was already born/conceived, so not much validity to your argument...

[–]Kandarian 0 points1 point ago

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Sorry, I don't have a link to this, but in an article I read recently, there were some anthropologists who were studying homosexuality. They found that in one tribal society, children who had gay uncles (men without children of their own) had better survival rates because their uncles acted as second fathers and provided support to them and their moms.

Raising a child is hard work, maybe homosexuality is a way of spreading the work out a bit.

[–]TheWereRabbit 0 points1 point ago

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Even disregarding the fact that this is not how evolution works, this theory still doesn't explain bisexuality.

[–]Glaucous 0 points1 point ago

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Been sayin' it for years

[–]Omniabsence 0 points1 point ago

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It would surprise me about as much as a terrorist gene/culture that's developed for the same purpose - That is to say, it would fit in to this fucked up world like a glove.

[–]GB20 0 points1 point ago

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There's still science to over-populate the world. IVF/surrogate mothers anyone?

[–]cdbgj 0 points1 point ago

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Evolution takes the most successful adaptation and retains it.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/03/pictures/110303-zombie-ants-fungus-new-species-fungi-bugs-science-brazil/

I believe this is possible. See Jurassic park, frogs turning into females, etc.

[–]cavortingwebeasties 0 points1 point ago

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Chris in the morning, FTW!

[–]blasfemi 0 points1 point ago

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[–]brodie21 0 points1 point ago

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OH MY GOD..... BRILLIANT!!!!!

[–]thebattlefish 0 points1 point ago

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Also cancer.

[–]ronpaulorfkingdie420 0 points1 point ago

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id bet its media brainwash to control world population before this

[–]abbiistabbii 0 points1 point ago

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Well the birth order theory would support this.