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Let your children develop their own opinions (i.imgur.com)
submitted 9 months ago by UtopicVision
[–]Bilbo_Fraggins 37 points38 points39 points 9 months ago
I was thinking, "I'll have mine medium-rare please".
[–]EXPLAINS_USERNAME 25 points26 points27 points 9 months ago
A juxtaposition of the J.R.R. Tolkien character Bilbo Baggins, and the word "frag", which comes from fragmentation grenade and means to assassinate an unpopular superior officer.
[–]BlazeOrangeDeer 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
try this one
[–]thrawnie 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I read this automatically in the voice of the guy who narrates excerpts from the Hitchhiker's Guide in the movie :). Beautiful novelty account!
[–]EXPLAINS_USERNAME 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Possibly a reference to the character Thrawn in the Star Wars extended universe novels.
[–]s-mores 8 points9 points10 points 9 months ago
Really? I was wondering where they were going to brand the baby. I guess my burning curiosity got the best of me.
[–]robmac411 38 points39 points40 points 9 months ago
like in Lord of the Flies?
[–]rushmc1 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
Good thing most kids grow up within the framework of a civilized society, no?
[–]Tularemia 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
That's still not their own opinions.
I think we should have the courage to admit that when we say "let them develop their own opinions", we're really just talking about How we want them to develop our personal opinions.
[–]rushmc1 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Except that that is NOT what many of us are talking about. Your inability to understand is not our responsibility. <shrug>
[–]Tularemia 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
You know damn well, just as I do, you may not be talking about this, but that most of r/atheism is not being truly benign in this "let the kids decide for themselves!" debate. They're saying "let the kids decide for themselves, as long as they don't become Christians, Muslims, etc...", not "let the kids decide whatever they want". The hivemind here would lose its shit at a person whose story is that they were raised by atheist or otherwise secular parents but willingly chose a life with God.
This is a common hypocrisy. It's like what happens during elections. People always encourage others to get out and vote--until they realize those other people are going to vote for the "wrong" candidate.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
And I think we need to face the fact that most normal Christian families will bring up children as religion as a part of tradition. This picture made it seem like growing up in a religious family is somehow bad. It isn't. It's all about who your parents are and how loving and accepting they are.
This x1000. Kids are great and all, but they have neither the intellectual faculties nor the emotional maturity to make good decisions.
[–]mike42A 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
As great as this sounds, your kids will get their opinions from someone. It's much better if they get them from their parents, rather than their peers. Especially if their peers are already religious. I've told my 5-year old that Jesus and God are like Santa. This way, when she realizes that Santa is fake, she'll realize that Jesus and God are the same. Otherwise, she will be like many people on this site, totally cut off from believers, and therefore totally unable to empathize with them. I also have some cousins who only saw their parents for 2 or 3 hours a day. The rest of the time they were in daycare, school or sports. The disconnect between generations is frightening. So, as much as I would like to have all kids choose on their own, I don't think it is good to have such a disagreement in a family.
[–]instapunish 16 points17 points18 points 9 months ago
While I think there is something to be said about kids getting opinions from someone, I'd also say that teaching critical thinking is the best way of dealing with this, and encouraging discussions based on it.
Understandably with a 5 year old, a simpler route may be needed as a temporary measure depending on the circumstances though.
[–]wazzaa4u 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I totally agree. Give them a temp idea when young and let them decide for themselves when they are older.
[–]rushmc1 8 points9 points10 points 9 months ago
This is not really true. Kids get INFORMATION from everyone around them (usually piecemeal). Then they, themselves, form OPINIONS.
[–]callumgg 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I was brought up atheist (and not being encouraged to develop my own opinions), fast forward to my late teens and I'm theist. Even if you try and indoctrinate your kids, it isn't going to stop everyone.
[–][deleted] 9 months ago
[deleted]
[–]Tarman83 13 points14 points15 points 9 months ago
They'll be tolerant and completely understanding, right?
... right?
[–]moriar 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Then that is their decision.
There are two factors that I think weigh heavily on that matter, and on many other matters:
1 - They have a right to make that choice for themselves.
2 - Attempting for force them to believe otherwise would have horrible, horrible side effects. (In addition to probably not working.)
[–]kampai12 98 points99 points100 points 9 months ago*
I would prefer a fish tattoo to having part of my dick cut off.
EDIT: I meant brand but couldn't think of the term.
[–]Ganbare_Goemon 61 points62 points63 points 9 months ago
Exactly. Whether you like to admit it or not, circumcision is a form of mutilation. Most people who have been circumcised had no choice or say in the matter-it was done to them when they were babies.
Not only that, but, unlike, say, getting your tonsils removed, being circumcised actually does have a noticeable effect. When you remove the foreskin, you are not only removing the most sensitive part of the penis, but you are also taking away the penis's natural "shield"-meaning that the now circumcised penis has to toughen itself to adapt, meaning even less sensation.
And, unlike, for example, a vasectomy, a circumcision cannot be undone or reserved. There are methods to create a natural pseudo-foreskin, but even that will never be as sensitive as the original foreskin.
I find it hilarious that western civilization laughs whenever a city tries to ban circumcision on minors, yet they cringe in horror and call those who perform female circumcisions immoral and cruel.
[–]TheGreatEnt 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
Yeah, but people will defend to the end the right to circumcise their children because it was done to them. Just cause your idiot parents chopped off part of your dick, doesn't mean you should mutilate your children's genitals. Stop being butthurt about it and end the cycle of stupidity.
[–]mitreddit 36 points37 points38 points 9 months ago
female circumcision, usually, means removal of the clitoris (the female analogue of the penis). the male equivalent of that would be removal of the penis. so they are not the same thing at all.
[–]lumberjackninja 16 points17 points18 points 9 months ago
There are less extreme forms of female circumcision as well, usually practiced in "developed" countries. That's irrelevant though, and trying to decide which is worse simply detracts from the issue. Both things are a fundamental violation of a child's bodily autonomy, and should be left for an adult to do voluntarily.
[–]Britt6 8 points9 points10 points 9 months ago
It almost all cases they DO NOT remove the clitoris. In general they remove the labia and then sew what's left back together basically leaving one tiny little hole for urine,sexual intercourse and menstruation etc.
[–]tentacular 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
That also sounds horrible.
[–][deleted] 20 points21 points22 points 9 months ago*
female circumcision does not always mean the removal of the clit, there are various forms, all of which are still considered female mutilation.
According to the WHO there are 4 types and they define it as "Female genital mutilation (FGM) includes procedures that intentionally alter or injure female genital organs for non-medical reasons"
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/
Also, circumcision of either gender is a forced medical proceedures to alter the genitals for non-medical reasons. This is generally performed on people too young to consent themselves, most of whom would never consent as an adult.
edited
[–]Gecko99 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
The fact that worse things exist doesn't make it okay to circumcise boys.
[–]exochicken 8 points9 points10 points 9 months ago
So you wouldn't mind removing the clitoral hood for "cultural reasons"? That's disturbing.
[–]praisecarcinoma 13 points14 points15 points 9 months ago
I was cut when I was young; but not for religious reasons. And in the end I'm glad they did it.
[–][deleted] 32 points33 points34 points 9 months ago
You'd better be glad they did it, because you didn't have a choice! If you don't have a choice in the matter, then it might be best to choose to be glad about it, for your own sanity.
[–]cerialkiller 44 points45 points46 points 9 months ago*
I don't understand how this subject can even be controversial.
Better illustration: http://i.imgur.com/bkqRB.png
[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 9 months ago
But they are going to be biased to want to think that they wanted it if they had it done without their permission. It's like the fox who wants the grapes at the top of the tree, but when he realises that he can't reach them he tells himself that they were probably sour anyway, to make himself feel better about not being able to get them.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
why don't you have more upvotes for this?
[–]Braile 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
I didn't have a choice and honestly I think more sensitivity would be a good thing, It may just be me, or the way my doctor preformed the operation, but I still have scars and I'm 24. Couple this with huge competency issues many of my past (and now even my current) relations have had because they feel they are inadequate because it is hard for me to climax. All in all, I wish I had a choice in the matter, but there is no use crying over it now, it's just best to keep going on.
[–]Ganbare_Goemon 13 points14 points15 points 9 months ago
Well, I'm glad that you ended up liking the decision that your parents made. But, my point is, while you may like being circumcised, there are others who may not like the fact that they are circumcised. Guys should be able to decide whether they want to be circumcised or not at an age where they understand the effects of their decision.
[–]dejavudejavu 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
As a female I am horrified at the thought of something like that happening to me, especially as an infant or young child. I too believe it should be up to the guy, or girl, to decide what they want to do with their own body.. later in their life, when they have grown into adulthood.
[–]StevieWonderTwin 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I thought the foreskin increased the vulnerability to bacteria growth underneath, especially in little boys who could care less about washing everywhere.
Plus, how do you know it's more sensitive? Has there been circumcisions of older men in the past?
Did they have sex with foreskin, get it hacked off and then have sex again...with a resulting pleasure level survey afterwards (for science)?
[–]alx3m 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
So splash some water on their l'il dicks from time to time.
"Plus, how do you know it's more sensitive? Has there been circumcisions of older men in the past?"
Yes, there has, anyway you can look at nerve endings in the foreskin. It can also be deduced that taking the head's natural protection away would desensitize it, it works the same with any other body part.
[–]Daemon_of_Mail 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
It's an old myth that has become tradition. All you have to do is wash your dick once in a while and you won't get diseases. Seems like pretty standard fucking procedure to me. The real reason for circumcision, imo, is to reduce sexual pleasure so you only will have sex to spread the seed, so to speak.
[–]legatlegionis 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
The fact that most people in the US take circumcision as a given doesn't mean it is right. There are plenty of other "developed countries" with similar health care capabilities to the US where circumcision is not the standard. Obviously, there are exceptions where the procedure has to be done for medical reasons but saying that bacteria accumulates under the skin is bullshit. If you teach the children how to clean it that takes care of it. It is not some complicated procedure, if you take a shower once every two days that takes care of it. I am uncircumcised and never had a urinal infection or anything of that sort. Also saying that it helps protect the transmission of STD's is false, the US has higher AIDS % than other similar countries where circumcision is not widespread. The things that help to protect STD are called condoms! The main-streamization of circumcision comes directly from the Judeo-Christian legacy and otherwise lacks basis. If you think that just because a child won't remember its ok, I dare you to see a video, its one of the most terrible things to see a little baby like that. If he doesn't remember doesn't mean that he does not feel.
Edit: Note this comes from a religious person but I don't agree that we should make irreversible harm to children for the sake of some tradition
[–]spiesvsmercs 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Twenty-seven studies were included. Of these, 21 showed a reduced risk of HIV among circumcised men, being approximately half that in uncircumcised men (crude RR = 0.52, CI 0.40-0.68). In 15 studies that adjusted for potential confounding factors, the association was even stronger (adjusted RR = 0.42, CI 0.34-0.54). The association was stronger among men at high risk of HIV (crude RR = 0.27; adjusted RR = 0.29, CI 0.20-0.41) than among men in general populations (crude RR = 0.93; adjusted RR = 0.56, CI 0.44-0.70).
[–]alx3m 8 points9 points10 points 9 months ago
It's called a condom, quite popular in uncircumcised Europe actually.
Just don't have random unprotected sex from strangers and you'll have a lower risk.
[–]Tawfiq7 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Great, so let them have a circumcision when they're old enough to consent to it if they're planning on sleeping around without a condom.
[–]MegaFilth90 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
But its not a tattoo, its a brand. Two meanings there folks
[–]protoopus 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
the splendid thing about circumcision when done for religious reasons is that it implies the subtext, "just correcting god's mistake."
My parents were raised christian and not very religious, and I still got my foreskin cut off. :(
[–]themisc 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
My first thought was that those brands are much too large for a tiny baby. They will have to be much smaller to fit.
[–]AkuTaco 19 points20 points21 points 9 months ago
Unless their opinion is that God exists, AND THEN SHAME THEM MERCILESSLY.
[–]dontreadme 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
BRING FORTH le RAGECOMICS
[–]Valkoon 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
They should probably have irons for sports teams as well.
[–]Hailz_ 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
Agreed. I think if one truly believes in the message of this image they wouldn't raise their kids to not believe in God or to believe in God - they'd truly let them decide (don't push them one way or the other). I like how atheists always turn this into an atheist message and keep reposting it, when it should be more of a message of freedom and open-minded thinking.
Personally I am a theist but I won't ever lie to my children and only tell them how I feel and about my own life experiences. If they choose to believe, that's fine, if they don't, that's fine too.
[–]admdelta 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
My girlfriend's parents did that too. She didn't become a nun, but she wound up Christian nonetheless.
[–]popscythe 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I want the caption to be "Don't fuck up your baby."
[–]Xuiryus 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
I want to bring my children into the world free of all religion and allow them to make their own choices and form their own opinoins when they get older. However my long term girlfriend (who I plan to have children with) wants them christened and then choose to stay with or leave the religion just because it's what she did.
I think the clean slate approach is more appropriate especially in a modern world where people are more open to allowing people to believe what they want. (At least in some places around the world.)
Doesn't sound like she's really "left" if she thinks it matters if you drip some magic water on them.
[–]MAGfloat 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
The repost rate of this picture is too damn high!
[–]Tylzen 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
I teach my son how to think, rather what to think.
[–]LeftLampSide 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
I will never understand people who feel the urge to slap some completely unnecessary text on something that speaks for itself.
[–]bak- 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
here you go: http://i.imgur.com/dNQTj.jpg
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I agree. The art would have a lot more power if you let the viewer draw their own conclusions.
[–]Polemicist82 17 points18 points19 points 9 months ago
Why can't this be a billboard?
[–]jaxioni 18 points19 points20 points 9 months ago
How much are billboards. Let's chip in and make one somewhere that needs it. Your move, someone that can organise this kind of thing.
[–]canonymous 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
And what would that accomplish, other than putting some money in the pockets of a billboard company? Do you really thing that people are going to change their view of the universe because of a slogan they saw on the way to work? It's just as obnoxious as the signs in front of churches.
[–]FredFredrickson 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
If it doesn't change anything, why would churches do it? Sometimes just planting the seed of an idea is important.
[–]iamnotasian 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Depending on the spot, you're looking at something starting around $3,000.
A good billboard will probably cost you up to $5,000, and a very good one (good place + size) is probably no lower than $10,000.
[–]OmegaVesko 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
No billboard company is going to publish it, they say it's too "controversial". A lot of the "good without God" billboards got removed because of that, this wouldn't even make it up.
[–]Babkock 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Remember how well the other atheist billboards went over?
[–]Roik 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I'm still wondering what the fish symbol is.
Seems unlikely that it's a cult of fishermen.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist6.htm
[–]AptMLE 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago*
It's not the Darwin fish; it has no feet in this picture.
It's the Ichthys fish, more commonly known as the Jesus fish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys
I stand corrected - that was the result of 10 seconds Googling :P
But wait.. there's already a crucifix there - why two Christian symbols?
[–]AptMLE 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Hmm, I wonder too. Maybe it's Catholicism vs Protestantism, but I wouldn't know enough about it to really say.
[–]tentacular 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
The esoteric order of Dagon?
[–]NightFox819 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I so agree with the statement that this picture is trying to get across. Simply because a child had the unfortunate accident of being born into a strictly religious household, that doesn't mean that the child is a member of that religion. They are too young to make decision for themselves
Like calling a 4 year old a "Republican" or "Democrat." Preposterous.
[–]frodevil 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Except, to Christians and most other 'afterlife' based religions, this isn't an option because to them, their kids will burn in hell if they don't become Christian. So, time and time again this type of post doesn't work.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
While I agree with this, letting kids form their own opinions (assuming they are presented the appropriate amount and diversity of information) will make them atheist. They may decide their stance on god(s) is that their could possibly be one, but their stance on the validity of any one theology will be pretty predictable. Without the pressure to not be an outsider in the religious community, nor the indoctrination that goes along side a religious upbringing, they would not hold the same emotional attachment. There would be far less factors working to pull a child into a certain belief, meaning he'd see each story as all equally ridiculous, though, he may see some as more helpful and more positive than others.
I know this, because I was raised by parents who dropped their religion and raised me to believe whatever I wanted to. I toyed around with all sorts of ideas that I came across growing up, but I still couldn't ever think of any religion as true or believable. My mother still is convinced Jesus walked the earth, though she doesn't believe he was the son of a god or anything, while I am far more accepting of the evidence to the contrary (I'm open to both sides, just not convinced their is enough evidence to prove that Josh from two towns over really was a person, minus the embellishments). Never really talking about their beliefs until I was an adult, I formed my own position autonomously from them, with only my personal experiences to form my perspective on the topic. This led me to a perspective that is unable to accept theology as a serious topic of discussion (outside of discussions about literature, philosophical discussions, social/cultural impacts or in critique).
And, this is exactly why religious people don't want to give kids the chance to decide for themselves, with no pressuring them and influencing them since before they could speak full sentences. They'd think too much like me.
[–]DoomyDoom 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
While I agree with this, letting kids form their own opinions (assuming they are presented the appropriate amount and diversity of information) will make them atheist.
That is the point.
I'm just saying that this is exactly why it won't ever happen. Religious people know they have to work it into their heads early when their skulls still have that soft spot in the back, then cork it in with a bunch of fear and self loathing. A religious person would never want their kid to think for themselves if the parent truly believed.
[–]MayorEmanuel 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Not necessarily I was raised in a mixed religious house hold and as is usually the case in a mixed religious household the two religions (Judaism and Christianity in this case) ended up canceling each other out. For most of my childhood life I set foot in a church about 3 times and a temple twice and also never celebrated a religious holiday with its intended meaning. About a month after I had the ability to start driving myself around I made a beeline for my town's reformed temple only to leave it after a few months for a conservative one. To this day I am still the only person in my family who practices religion on any kind.
[–]IlikeHistory 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
Your mother is correct on the fact Jesus did walk the earth
Paraphrasing historian and Yale professor Dale Martin
All reputable historians agree that Jesus did in fact exist There is too much evidence he existed and it is just not controvertible. There were 1 or 2 reputable scholars in the 19th century who denied that Jesus existed but you can not find them nowadays.
My source is the lecture The Historical Jesus at minute 15:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_dOhg-Fpu0
[–]bak- 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I'd love to have some of these sources of evidence. I always had heard that the only evidence created around the same time as opposed to a few hundred years later was a single Jewish scholar who called him the savior, which a Jew would never say, so people to think that his words were altered after the fact by Christians.
If there really is too much evidence, it shouldn't be hard to cite two or three pieces of it?
[–]IlikeHistory 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago*
No historian just takes ancient sources at their word. To interpret ancient sources you need a highly skilled historian.
There is only a limited amount of academic research available on the internet without access to a University.
There is a chance there is information on the internet but I currently don't have time to dig through Google.
The Yale Professor above has 24 hours of lectures on the historical accuracy of the new testament on youtube and here is another lecture series offered by Stanford.
Historical Jesus by Stanford Continuing Studies Program
"Over the last four decades historical scholarship on Jesus and his times—whether conducted by Jews, Christians, or non-believers—has arrived at a strong consensus about what this undeniably historical figure"
http://itunes.apple.com/itunes-u/historical-jesus/id384233911#ls=1
[–]davorzdralo 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Ho copy-pastes this same comment around, I doubt you will get a response. The video has comments and ratings disabled, which is typical for dubious material which people don't want questioned, and all the evidence it relies on is from Christians. Basically, crap. As Wikipedia puts it (emphasis by me):
The evidence for the existence of Jesus all comes from after his lifetime.[4][5][6] The material which refers to Jesus includes the books of the New Testament, statements from the early Church Fathers, hypothetical sources which many biblical scholars argue lie behind the New Testament (the so called Q source), brief references in histories produced decades or centuries later by pagan and Jewish sources[7] such as Josephus, gnostic and other apocryphal documents, and early Christian creeds.[8]
Can't tell if serious, or poe...
First, accepting a video on face value is not the best way to go about finding historical facts. Just because he's a Yale professor does not mean every word he says is the full truth, unbiased, researched and tested. He is a professor of Religious studies. His bachelors degree (B.S. in Music Education) is from Abilene Christian University. He received a Masters in Divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary. He did receive a Ph.D. from Yale, but it seems fairly clear that he has much to gain personally by dispelling the idea that Jesus may not have existed, especially to himself. If you look at the books he's written, they are not as much critiques of christianity as a promotion of it (Slavery as Salvation being one). His thesis at Yale was, “Slave of Christ, Slave of All; Paul's Metaphor of Slavery and 1 Corinthians 9." As his publications seem to talk mostly about validating or explaining certain controversial topics in the bible, everything on his CV would express a serious bias towards christianity as being true in every respect. I'm sure he is fantastically knowledgable about his subject, but he is claim cannot be accepted on face value. His video doesn't do much to dispel this, showing an overemphasis on the bible as a historical document and looking at scholars well after Jesus' supposed life.
He even says, "When we talk about history, we're not talking about the past, we're talking about an account of the past." This is, of course true. He goes on to say that you can't get a full picture of the history because we can only get a basic picture based off text. He even says that the historical Jesus cannot be found in history because he isn't in written history, and we cannot go back in time. However, this does not lay credence to the claim he did exist. Saying we can't prove he never existed doesn't prove that he did.
Saying you can construct an historical Jesus, comparing it to past presidents or rulers of ancient empires, is ridiculous. These things were far more documented and have far more evidence to prove their existence than Jesus. Jesus is never mentioned by any contemporary writers or historians, even though he seems to have made a huge impact based off the claims made by the bible, and even Paul says, "I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ." Paul, the first reference to Jesus, coming decades after his supposed death, says he didn't even learn this through word of mouth. This is what the gospels are based off of, and even they have huge differences between in regards to who he was, what his philosophies were, how he died, etc., which show that each writer has a specific goal and ideology he is pushing through the words. Looking at the life of Paul, whether or not he existed, makes his claims even more suspect.
Here is a well researched paper about myths about Jesus, specifically how people think the idea he didn't exist is ridiculous. I assume you'll probably look at it the same way I looked at your video, so here also is r/atheism's partcial culmination of history and literacy analysis. I don't expect you to read any of that, though there is a lot of information there, in general, and a lot specifically on whether or not Jesus existed.
Basically, there is no record of this supposedly highly influence character in history. The only evidence for his life came from writers decades later, who had never been around him. If you look at Bart Ehrman's lecture about Misquoting Jesus, you'll see how the texts differ from each other in story lines and depiction of the character, along with how certain conversations only make sense if spoken in greek, specifically one which centers around the confusion of what Jesus is saying based on a double meaning of a word. When jesus was born and when he died are also suspect to variation between the texts. The kings he was said to have lived under and died under differ, showing a period of a hundred years he would have had to live over to meet all the timeline, and he would have had to be born and to die multiple times to match the accounts. Also, there were many characters similar to Jesus. Here is a video discussing this, which exposes a severe contradictions in his life within the first minute.
I'm not saying I know he never existed, I'm saying that there is no evidence to express that he did. Anyone who tells you there is evidence is either lying or fooling themselves. The texts that came decades after are no more proof of his existence than the Terminator movies are to the terminator. And, saying I would be more inclined to believe that he existed if we don't make any assumptions of miracles made, as espoused in the texts, would be disingenuous. That would be like saying I believe the could have terminator existed if you remove the time travel and the whole robot thing, and that his running around killing and blowing things up was just never reported by anyone. No, it's far more likely that Jesus was a fictional character.
Also, the claim that, "All reputable historians agree that Jesus did in fact exist," is false. Typing it in bold doesn't make it any more valid (linking it to a site could have, but I bet anyone on r/atheism could find serious error in whatever group was making that claim). You might be right that the majority of scholars believe he existed, but truth is not ruled by the majority. Further, this claim seems far to broad. You should be making the claim that all historians of that period agree, and not just the ones in America. Still, this is wrong. Also, while many may assume he existed, they did not necessarily look into the evidence for his existence and are just accepting it as truth. Wanting to believe that he existed isn't going to make him exist, and wanting the people who say he did to be right isn't going to make them right. You need to accept that their is very little evidence for his existence, and what is available is highly contradictory.
I feel what I wrote was sufficient, at least in providing a reason for my strong skepticism. While I could certainly provide more information on the subject, I feel like it would be a pointless effort on my part to accumulate more information on the topic because you wouldn't read it anyway. I've already provided enough information here for you to ignore, why add to the pile?
[–]inyouraeroplane 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
My mother still is convinced Jesus walked the earth, though she doesn't believe he was the son of a god or anything, while I am far more accepting of the evidence to the contrary (I'm open to both sides, just not convinced their is enough evidence to prove that Josh from two towns over really was a person, minus the embellishments).
Ordinary claims require ordinary evidence. There being a guy named Yeshua and even thinking himself divine isn't that implausible.
[–]Anticlimax1471 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
I dont get this "let your kids choose their religion" thing.
If my kids still believe in Santa Claus, fairies and leprechauns when they are teenagers, I would make sure they knew that it's actually all bullshit.
Same thing for god.
[–]MaterialsScientist 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago*
Exactly! You gotta educate your kids, not let them believe whatever they want.
(Though if you believe God exists, it makes sense to teach your children he exists, IMO. It's only logical to want them to know what you think is the truth.)
[–]Anticlimax1471 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
But it's not what I think is the truth. There is no scientific evidence of any kind for the existence of Santa Claus, or fairies, or indeed any kind of magic.
Magic is made up, the people who make it up acknowledge that they made it up.
Any adult who believes in Santa, fairies, monsters or any other kind of magic is either delusional, or doesn't function cognitively as an adult.
If an adult believed in Santa, or fairies, yes it would make sense that they would teach that to their children. But the majority of people would see that as wrong.
Someone who firmly believed in the existence of fairies, Santa and magic, and were trying to pass those beliefs on to their children would probably have their children taken away from them. Then that person would probably be subjected to psychological treatment.
[–]mmx64 8 points9 points10 points 9 months ago
My parents are not belivers, and they did not indoctrinate me in any way. Basically, the topic never came up, and hasn't after I've grown up either. It's a non topic. I would think this is the norm.
[–]Daemon_of_Mail 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
My parents are believers and they chose to allow me to develop my own opinion. I think it helped that they came from two separate religious backgrounds.
[–]Bilbo_Fraggins 8 points9 points10 points 9 months ago
Unfortunately this is true.
I write about this every time I see a parenting question.
Teaching critical thinking and evidence evaluation is proper. Make sure when teaching your children you don't overclaim for the evidence in the way you believe either. It's a difficult thing, but worthwhile both for you and the child. ;-)
[–]Finkelton 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
so it's missing a brand for something that exists inherently? I don't quite understand, see Atheism is the default setting. Religion is the thing we insert....... Humans aren't born with some vast knowledge of the universe and it's workings and i'll be damned if i'd trust information handed down (by word of mouth, think... telephone game) over the past couple o thousand years, but hey if you want to, I've got a flat earth theory to sell ya
[–]McBurger 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
34 years ago, you were born atheist.
[–]acdcfanbill 11 points12 points13 points 9 months ago
isn't lack of belief the natural state? or are you referring to other types of thinking from religious?
[–]torrent1337 14 points15 points16 points 9 months ago*
I would argue that agnosticism is the natural state.
Technically incorrect. "Gnosticism" describes certainty while "theism" describes belief. To be Gnostic means that you can know god exists. To be agnostic describes someone who does not know whether god exists or not.
Most atheists are agnostic atheists, meaning they don't know whether god exists, and upon lack of evidence ascribe the likelihood of god's existence to a level similar to Santa Claus and Unicorns.
edit: Grammar
[–]OriginalStomper 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
And most theists (whether they consciously realize it or not) are agnostic theists who cite "faith" rather than "knowledge" as the foundation of their belief.
[–]wmjdgla 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
many/most non-believer parents don't also indoctrinate their children to their way of thinking
Dude, "their way of thinking" is "thinking for themselves" so as to come to their own conclusions. If you see this as indoctrination then you're being ridiculous.
[–]rushmc1 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
I would be very happy if society indoctrinated thinking for themselves into all children. I can see no downside to this.
[–]Swampfoot 22 points23 points24 points 9 months ago*
You can't indoctrinate something which exists by default - in this case, a lack of belief in a deity.
There is no atheist doctrine or dogma.
[–]katowse 31 points32 points33 points 9 months ago
While a lack of a belief in a deity may be a default state this does not mean it is something that cannot be indoctrinated.
ANY idea can be indoctrinated. What sets teaching ideas apart from indoctrination is not whether or not it is a "default state", but how the ideas are put into context. That is, the reasoning and logic behind behind the ideas are taught while refraining from teaching that the idea is inherently truthful.
[–]ForgettableUsername 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I agree entirely.
I think maybe we shouldn't talk about six year old atheists any more than we should six year old Catholics or six year old Libertarians.
[–]hiptarded 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
technically, couldn't you cram "there is no god" down their throat? not judging that as good or bad, but it seems possible.
[–]kingssman 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
Are children really born atheist though? In every corner of the globe shows human civilization had some sort belief in a deity. Could it be that our human brains are programmed into rationalizing a deity when we encounter something we cannot comprehend?
I would love to find some evidence that a child, isolated from outside environment would not at some point rationalize the existence of a deity .
[–]banuday 15 points16 points17 points 9 months ago
Children aren't theists or atheists by default, which are more concrete philosophical positions, but they are definitely animists. Children often ascribe supernatural presences (monster in the closet, imaginary friends, ghosts) to the world because they have powerful imaginations but do not have the education to understand the physical processes underlying what they see. I think this correlates strongly with early tribes being animist or shamanist.
[–]Vibster 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I think it's fair to say children lack a belief in god when the are born.
[–]finalcut19 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
But that's really because they have no understaning of what a god is/should be. I technically didn't "believe" in evolution when I was born, but I eventually came to understand what it is. Because of this understanding, I'm able to accept it as fact. So it is 100% true that children lack a belief in god when they are born, but it's a weightless statement because newborns don't really have an understanding of anything in the world.
[–]protendious 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
To be fair, if there was a child who was left to their own devices of thought, and then around 5 or 6 felt that maybe there was some form of deity governing the universe, that child would be dissuaded by atheist parents.
[–]kingssman 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Concepts of deities came from somewhere. I'm sure taking an African tribal child and letting it loose in the wild, as it grows up it will come up with things like rain gods and animal spirits to provide conclusions to things unexplained.
Our human brains are genetically programmed to fill in the blanks. What we fill it in with depends on how much we currently know.
[–]banuday 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Oh also, there is no "theist" dogma or doctrine anymore than there is a "atheist" dogma or doctrine. These are both generic terms indicating belief or non-belief in a deity.
However, organizations develop around codifying certain theist beliefs, aka religions, and from these organizations arise certain guiding principles, aka dogmas.
I could also imagine atheists developing organizations codifying certain beliefs, such as that irrational beliefs must always be attacked and/or ridiculed, that religion is harmful to society and must be eliminated and making it a goal to get people "see the light", as it were, etc. And these organizations could meet on a regular basis to discuss certain literature and to instill a sense of "mission" in its members. Only these wouldn't be called religions with dogmas, just associations with certain guiding principles.
[–]christoph8_21 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
In my experience (which of course isn't everyone's), this is bullshit. My parents did not take me to church but also did not talk to me about why god is wrong. I was raised in a house, as were a lot of my non-believing friends, that simply didn't have any ideological concept. We did family stuff and didn't need to discuss any of it. A child has enough tangible problems in their life.
[–]Celltrex 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
So if an atheist parent doesn't speak about religion to his son, he is actually indoctrinating him? Well, the more you FUCKING KNOW.
[–]admdelta 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I think the point he's making is that a lot of atheist parents do speak out against religion to their children.
[–]robywar 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
It's not indoctrination to tell your kids about evolution. Or gravity. That the earth is round. It's not indoctrination to tell them that there are no magic men in the sky.
[–]Coraon 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Actually telling them what to think would be indoctrination, suggesting that they decide for themselves and supporting whatever decision they make would not be. A good parent provides an example, a child uses this and their own conclusions to make up their own mind.
Yes, we have another word for that: education.
[–]aiiieeeee 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
gravity, evolution, earth is round - based on science and observation no magic men in sky - philosophical position (there are no scientific studies confirming)
[–]wormsaregood 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
This is absolutely correct and, generally, why this board makes zero progress in the real world. They're just as close-minded (and think in one dimension) in the same way as the people they're trying to reach (or sometimes insult) It never works.
[–]bluthru 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
why this board makes zero progress in the real world
Information and thoughts presented in /r/atheism helped me shake religion a few years ago. I'm sure there's plenty of us. Stop speaking in absolutes when you don't have sufficient data.
This is why this subreddit does work. r/atheism trolls and critics don't get it. I don't visit here like every day, but it's a great place to go to vent, to present ideas, and to learn. In a way, the trolls of the subreddit give us an opportunity to continue to think critically, present counter arguments, and exercise our brains. Shit, I'm doing it right now and it feels good. People who criticize the subreddit don't realize that some people are at a different stage of transitioning in the belief structure. r/atheism is a place that generally accepts these folks who have questions and give them an honest answer (maybe biased but then why the hell are you on r/atheism in the first place?)
Then why post here? bluthru makes a great point that happens plenty on this subreddit. I dismissed religion with a few thought provoking friends, a religion class, and had a summer of a job that required tons of driving to reflect on it. Folks like bluthru had more access to thought provoking ideas and people through r/atheism and that changed them as a person and hopefully they're content with it and being proactive in their new found beliefs.
How do you know that the ideas that myself, bluthru, or anyone else in this subreddit learn in this subreddit aren't ones we share and discuss with our intelligent colleagues and friends to which we all benefit from intellectually and act upon in our daily life? I fucking do this plenty!
[–]steelgrain 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
Lack of belief is the default setting. In other words all babies are born agnostic. Most atheists, agnostics and 'modern day christians' teach their children critical thinking skills. It is the only thing the parent should mind to when talking about beliefs. As Tyson said 'children are natural born scientists, adults come in and step on their shit, ruining their experiments.' That's pretty much verbatim.
Ehh.... I'm not sure about that. I used to think that, then I started reading the work of Paul Bloom. He never says babies are born religious (which would not be true), but his work seems to point that babies have a ingrained dualist belief.
[–]shematic 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
When I was born, the doctor slapped my mother.
This is ridiculous. Children will develop their own opinions regardless of upbringing.
Yes. That is why so many Christians have Muslim children, and Muslims have so many Buddhist children... oh wait, they don't.
[–]omatic810 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I'd rather it have a message akin to "Teach science, not religion.". My parents let me form my opinions (thank Noodle), but they made darn sure that I had plenty of facts about what we know of the universe. Without that, I might be head of a well-intentioned-but-extreme cult by now. Ronald Mc Hubbard pulled it off, and he didn't even have the internets!
[–]quitefunny 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Thanks for the text, whoever added the text. Without it, I wouldn't be able to grasp the subtle meaning of this image.
[–]Onefortwo 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
The irony is that it is a poster supporting atheism but using "damn" is a word that is used in religion to say something is being sent to hell
[–]dbroyles 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I wish it could be just that OP, but you see, most people don't see it as an opinion.
[–]Angstrom88 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
The caption is not even necessary. Original?
[–]Gezonheid 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I watched this video the other day and Neil Tyson makes a great point here about letting kids learn for themselves not so much about religion but just in ever day life http://youtu.be/YXh9RQCvxmg?t=1h13m
[–]schoofer 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Sorry, I can't upvote this. In fact, it's pretty detestable. To compare the theory of evolution with religious dogma isn't just offensive, it's asinine. Our job as parents is to help our children become critical thinkers who care about other people, to inspire them to achieve their goals, to help them develop those goals, and to teach them how to get along with others.
I plan on teaching my children facts about the Earth and all of its inhabitants, including the theory of evolution. Fuck anyone who thinks that's as bad as religion.
[–]hachiko007 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
bullshit
That implies that both are correct, which is false. I wouldn't let my kid think 2 + 2 = 5, so why would I let them think the earth is less than 10,000 years old and all the other ridiculous dogma associated with Abrahamic religions?
[–]nazihatinchimp 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Yeah because I never see posts from r/atheism that have people indoctrinating their kids.
[–]junkeee999 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Let children of people I disagree with develop their own opinions.
FTFY
Yeah, because atheist parents won't indoctrinate there children. Yes, kids do what ever the hell you want! Its your own life, want to drop out of school? ok!
[–]Doomdoomkittydoom 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
No. I didn't give my life to raising the little shits for nothing more than passing on my genetic material. I meant to pass on my morals, memes, skills, ideals, etc...
Sure, they'll probably adulterate them, rebel, and ultimately have to make their own way, but fuck hypocritical fantasy that any parent will for a fucking second not teach to their children that which they know, hold dear, and/or believe what is best for that little parasite.
[–]Outofmany 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I agree you shouldn't brand your kids atheists either.
[–]poopyfinger 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I like how Atheists claim they just want to be left alone when it comes to beliefs. Yet they love to tell others how to raise their kids.
[–]wjbc 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
It doesn't matter what you tell your kids, they learn from what you do, who you are. Good luck trying to change that after having kids.
[–]rushmc1 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
The second part of your sentence is true; the first part is not.
[–]Achalemoipas 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Yeah, like when they want to eat cigarette butts in the park.
They should have the choice to decide if they like cigarette butts.
[–]9babydill 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Abrahamic Religion is child abuse.
This goes for Atheism as well. If your kid ends up wanting to believe in god, let them. I guess you think your child would be an ignorant retard right? Make sure to sow the seeds to prevent coming to their own conclusion.
Hypocrites.
Coming from an atheist.
[–]larynx1982 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
If you raise your child properly with critical thinking skills and teach them about religion as mythologies (which they are) in history class then most likely he/she will turn out to an Atheist. Atheism is just a natural bi-product of proper Skepticism.
[–]Toodles1823 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
This is what my husband and I have decided to do for our son. If he decides he wants to be christian, buddhist, taoist, atheist whatever he can be it. I'll take him to his decided place of worship (Or none). Just don't shove it down my throat, boy, and I'll be happy with you. Probably going to draw the line at something like the Nazi party.
[–]krevency 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Wasn't sure how that message would come across in this community.
[–]alexyork3d 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
*Damned.
[–]NiPlusUltra 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
And would you, as an atheist parent, let your child choose religion?
[–]Bonkers83m 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I rather tell my kids what to do then have the government, TV, school tell my kid what to do with their life...
[–]Cronyx 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I'd pay a lot of money to have this on a t-shirt.
This is an excellent image.
[–]colinmurphy00 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Mmmmmaaaaaaaaan!
[–]Mattcusprime 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Thanks! I'll pass your opinion on to my children.
[–]wardsac 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
This kills the church.
[–]Joe_middendorf 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
What is the symbol to the far right on the branding tools?
[–]ronbreddit 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
...and let them keep their foreskin too!
Wait, what?
[–]Doilyn 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Please, please do this.
[–]invioletlight 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Agreed. Just because I have certain beliefs doesn't mean my son will feel the same way. Religion is not genetic. As a Wiccan, I do not push my faith on anyone, but if my son chooses after he turns 18 to come to the Wiccan faith that is his choice.
[–]Britt6 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Back to the actual picture.....I think the same could be said about anyone not only religious groups. There are horrible things being ingrained in children from day one of a "non-religious" nature yet because they are non-religious it's just completely acceptable? Atheism is just as much a "religion" as the next and essentially do the same thing to their children only they use a different brand. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
[–]mickeyblu 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
It can go both ways. A an atheist ending up with a religious nut for a kid.
You need to teach your kid what is right or wrong according to you, whatever that means. You don't tell them what to think, you just tell them what you think. If you're not coming across as a douchebag they might listen to you.
[–]Trollegater 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I disagree
[–]boutsofbrilliance 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
see, i don't really agree with this statement. when you say "develop their own opinions", you are pretending that the process by which they form these opinions will be a sterile, informative experience. that at such a young and impressionable age, they will carefully compare the merits of one school of thought versus another, discarding the myriad coercive influences that surround them.
of course, this is not what will happen. your young child will face pressure to conform to the local religious majority in the same way they are pressured to dress, act, and carry themselves in every other way by everyone around them. at that age, they want acceptance and the security and confidence that offers.
would you also suggest that you do not teach your children to be tolerant of others, regardless of sexual preference, skin color, country of origin, but rather allow them to develop their own opinions on these things ?
[–]KingofDerby 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Problem is that to many, it's more important then simply opinions. It's literally life or death. In the church I was bought up in, it was taught that to not bring them up it 'The Truth' was tantamount to manslaughter.
(Same reason they will not stop preaching. To do so is to be blood guilty.)
[–]shredderooze 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Where is the atheism brand?
We call that the brain. Most kids are born with it.
[–]Hoser117 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
That baby has some very toned buns.
[–]Aldrenean 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Why are there two Christian symbols?
[–]EliteKill 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I actually disagree with this. As a parent, it is your duty to educate your children, and part of that is in the religion section. If you don't do it, someone on the outside will, and I think that's worth than your parents "forcing" a religion onto you.
[–]itsprobablytrue 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I always get the feeling that atleast 30% of the posts on r/atheism is nothing more than teens feeling like they are rebelling against the establishment.
[–]GreyareaWalker 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
All wee need is common sense. The rest takes care of itself.
[–]hawaii4485 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
BEAUtiful
[–]SoapBoxOne 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Every day that passes I consider more and more the thought of leaving this country.
[–]njbartocci 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I see what you're saying, but it's a parent's responsibility to develop a moral compass within their child.
Of course someone who believes that there is a God and a Heaven and a Christ and that we must truly believe to go there, is going to want their child to be religious.
There's nothing wrong with THAT overall. But when it starts interfering with a child's natural logical development, he becomes a DROOOONNNNNNEE
[–]parasocks 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
This is why I had big reservations letting my child be baptized, if I ever even had a choice anyways. My wife is Mexican, and it was a pretty big deal there. I dunno. Same thing with going to Catholic school (even though the Catholic schools here are rated more highly and have less problems...) It's just so foreign to me. I'm only 30, but when I went to school here in one of the most multicultural cities in the world, the catholic kids were all italian/portuguese/white canadian and public school was a mix of everybody. The elitist would think "great! how could you turn down putting your kids with higher society! what an opportunity!" but I dunno. I think of it more like the well rounding of a piece of sharp glass thrown into a river, now totally smooth.
I asked them this.. If I said I wanted and expected that he'd go to a muslim school, or an orthodox jewish school, would that be weird for them? Would my kid not be effected by this segmentation? And how is it any different?
But as a father in a family, you sometimes just gotta go with the flow, and make sure you can actually stick around long enough to still have a say and be the devil's advocate as your children grow up.
My parent believe in God had 3 children but let us choose. We ended up 2 no-believers and 1 believer.
I did the same for my 2 children and got 2 non-believers.
[–]v0rtex1 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Why's there a fish and a cross? Aren't they both representative of Christianity?
[–]collin_ph 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Sounds like this belongs more in r/agostic as r/atheism is full of opinions.
[–]cjb630 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
i'll play http://i.imgur.com/KYdEL.jpg
[–]CApnJuMp 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
As an atheist captain: I approve!
[–]ittehbittehladeh 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
My parents educated me from a young age about all sorts of religions. They allowed me to choose whether or not I went to church (i didn't), told me whatever I believed was okay, and let me decide for myself. I didn't know their religious views until I was 14. My dad is an atheist and my mom is a deist, and when I told them I was an atheist they didnt have any reaction one way or another. Religion simply isn't a part of their lives, and they dont even like to talk about it because it just isn't relevant.
I love my parents.
[–]Atheist_Simon_Haddad 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Why is there a cross and a Jesus -fish?
[–]frenlaven 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I plan not to feed my children food. I want them to choose for themselves whether they want to eat or not, and how to prepare said food. I don't want to shove my own preference to eat food daily down their throats. amiright??
[–]apalms 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Would you still say this if your children wanted to look into religion? (not being accusing just wondering)
[–]Rum_Pirate_SC 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
facepalms
[–]Shinma 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I don't always get the tip of my dick chopped off
but when I do, I prefer it to happen while I'm too young to remember it.
[–]kidjan 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Nice pic, but I think it's missing a branding iron in the shape of a flying spaghetti monster. :P
I'm adamantly secular, but I do believe in letting my kids develop their own opinions. If my daughter ends up being a mormon (or whatever), so be it. I'd prefer not, but at some point I have to acknowledge she's in charge of her own life.
[–]samurailawngnome 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
While you're at it, let them choose if they want to have part of their dick cut off.
[–]Dat_Ahole 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
why is there a jesus fish and a cross?
[–]roepieroepie 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
It's not about options , it's about truth.
I have develop my own opinions and I have become a Christian. Religion is just more logical to me
[–]ForgettableUsername 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Does this apply to all of the 'I'm so proud my six year old is an atheist' posts as well?
[–]DuckTruck 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Ya'll should let everyone on facebook make their own opinions too.
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
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