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What Atheism is up against (imgur.com)
submitted 10 months ago by coastermonger
[–]JonesBee 59 points60 points61 points 10 months ago
"Arguing with religious people is like playing chess with a pigeon. It'll knock over the pieces, crap on the board, and fly back to it's flock to claim victory." -Anonymous
[–]Wanhope -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 months ago
Ugh, this is almost exactly how the talk went with my girlfriend. Except just ended with me apologising and slightly less feces(faeces?) involved.
[–]Judeo 22 points23 points24 points 10 months ago
Don't apologize for being atheist.
[–]Wanhope 3 points4 points5 points 10 months ago
Indoctrination is a bitch, she can't even fathom that god might not exist because her mother has drilled it into her head since birth. Every word I said just made her more and more upset, not because I was "mocking" her as so many religious people will say when you question their beliefs. But that every word made it seem more and more sure that I'm going to be going to hell (which is a terrible place so I'm told, not somewhere you want your loved ones to be).
Comes down to her wanting to help me, but she's unable to see how it's not needed. So I apologised for upsetting her, and said (long story short) that we'd work something out I'm sure.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 10 months ago
this relationship is going to get real ugly before it gets any better.
[–]Wanhope 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
I actually told her that somewhere in the conversation, almost exact words.
And it will, for her, I just have to make that entire religion pedestal crumble and be around to catch her. Probably take a few years.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 10 months ago
i hope the best for you, but i also really hope you understand that it's extremely difficult to change someone. people often get into long relationships on the hope that their partner will change. it rarely happens.
also, if you think you have more power than her mother in this situation...well, it's going to get ugly.
[–]Wanhope 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Yes I know it will be very difficult. It might not even happen, but as long as religion stays outside of us (at the very least) I can deal with it.
She doesn't go to church, neither does her mother. But her mother still is a stern believer, and the gf never get preachy at me. Which is why I didn't think it would be much of a problem.
Just have to convince her that I wont be burning for all eternity. :/
[–]JonesBee 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
I'm pretty much in the same situation. My wife believes in God and I don't. She has been brainwashed since she was a child, and was taught to fear. That's pretty hard to get over. We don't let religion interfere with our relationship but we've had discussions about it. She is a logical person so I've planted the seed of doubt in her mind, and most of our discussions about the matter have ended in her silence, thinking about it all. I don't mind if she gets solace from religion, as long as it doesn't interfere with her ability of making decisions on her own and not leaving everything to praying for God. We also have a child on the way and she wants to baptize him/her, and I don't. I've said that you don't need to be a member of the church to believe, and who are we to decide for the baby which religion he/she should be part of, there are hundreds of choices or choosing not to believe at all.
[–]John_um 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
unless you want future blowjobs.
[–]tha_ape -7 points-6 points-5 points 10 months ago
"Arguing with atheist people is like playing chess with a pigeon. It'll knock over the pieces, crap on the board, and fly back to it's flock to claim victory."
You're not going to change peoples beliefs... stop trying. Believe what YOU want, and let THEM believe what THEY want. No one likes to be told what to believe.
Atheists trying to convert people are just as bad as religious zealots trying to convert people. Quit arguing and enjoy life, who cares what happens after its over...
[–]Faraday07 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
What happens after death is not the problem. It's how religion affects us in this life. It permeates our personal lives, politics, education and science (especially in the US)
People do change their minds and it's rarely just by themselves with no outside help. People come to r/atheism everyday saying they changed their mind because of the discussion here. This is the case for any atheist portal on the net.
No, atheists "trying to convert" are not as bad as religious zealots. When we start torturing people to convert or blowing people up come talk to me. We talk and discuss, mock and laugh, debate and argue and rarely go out of our way to force ourselves on anyone. This is no different than what anybody does for any topic on anything meaningful or not; you just seem to make religion a sacred cow that can't be touched.
Religious beliefs inform actions. Actions have consequences that we have to live with everyday. The only thing that can affect peaceful change is challenging the ideas, discussing them and making our grievances known.
This atheist portal is a place to let out frustration. Go to a republican convention and pick up on all the jokes about Dems or an N'Sync fan club making fun of Backstreet Boys fans. If you don't like that type of discourse then don't go to places where it happens.
[–]UniversityGraduate 17 points18 points19 points 10 months ago
You should have followed this with "...am I right fellas?"
[–]tallywhacker22 8 points9 points10 points 10 months ago
Back me up guys ... guys? .... guys?
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
.... I could say something here but I won't
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 10 months ago
and if it said 'him' instead of 'her' no one would've batted an eyelid.
[–]BowlingisnotNam 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
What point are you failing to elucidate?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
'University Graduate' was implying some sort of laddish sexism. The fact that if the genders were reversed it wouldn't be consider an issue suggests he's reading too much into this.
[–]mitch-james 3 points4 points5 points 10 months ago
Theists get offended when we challenge their beliefs but think its ok to shit all over ours. Not that i get offended when my beliefs are challenged it's just that it seems so hypocritical to me.
[–]rib-bit 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
logic and faith will never reconcile... what atheism is up against is the same thing that religious are up against -- both are really shouting at each other in a language that the other doesn't understand -- and then going back to their group to say how cool they are...
[–]I_love_tacos 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
To which an astute atheist would have to reply:
Atheism = absence or lack of belief in a god/gods.
How can that which does not exist (belief) be wrong?
[–]Born_on_mt_top_in_tn 4 points5 points6 points 10 months ago
I think it is important to mention that religious folk usually only like to talk about their faith with others who already believe the same thing. They pretty much live in the assumption of argumentum ad populum with a lot of communal reinforcement. This pretty much leaves them feeling defenseless when people come at them with arguments that challenge those beliefs, especially when they seem to actively avoid thinking outside their own paradigm. They are living examples of the idea that faith unchallenged is weak.
Atheists frequently have experiences with defending themselves and having their creed (or lack thereof) challenged by family, friends and sometimes authority figures like teachers as we saw in another post today. This can be a harsh and unforgiving experience that few are able to survive with their atheism intact. This leaves the group with mostly strong individuals who are well-armed for an intellectual discussion. Major religions have no such filter for their followers.
In my opinion, religious people will often sense an atheist's strength of person and argument, which causes them to sense their own lack of personal potency and preparation, while simultaneously realizing all the back patting for giving good answers in church is no good in a more nuetral intellectual space. This leads to the gut response people frequently have regardless of personal beliefs: interpret argument as an agressive threat and respond in kind hoping to dismiss or divert.
It's unfortunate because sometimes atheists want to have a legitimate discussion without intending to offend. Additionally, we all know it is impossible to interpret tone from brief blurbs of text.
[–]praisecarcinoma -1 points0 points1 point 10 months ago
I don't disagree, necessarily. But I do find, as an atheist, that I'm mostly surrounded by other atheists, and am seldom challenged on my beliefs by Christians. I feel like my life as an atheist is far away from the lives of many other's, hah.
[–]Born_on_mt_top_in_tn 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Your situation seems common as well. I was just using the default scenario we frequently reference in these discussions about the persecuted and alone atheist.
In a more adjusted and supported surrounding like your own, I would say some of the comments in here hit on it pretty well. Atheism is more like a set of hypotheses open to review and change, whereas the religious beliefs are based on doctrine meant to be lived and obeyed with sincere dedication. Ideas are free to be discussed amongst most people without a fuss, but religious beliefs literally become a way of life for people. Most people tend to get defensive about something that personal, especially if they feel the topic is bring treated like any other casual idea open to refutation when it is something they completely identify themselves with.
[–]aconcernedconsumer 4 points5 points6 points 10 months ago
You know when you call a fat person fat and they get upset? It's offensive because it's true. Basically the same thing. Calling a skinny person fat shouldn't have the same effect.
[–]sluggdiddy 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Sort of like this idea... Usually when you laugh at someone for something they say, or believe, they will ask you.. "what are you laughing at"...but if you laugh at a religious person for their beliefs... they do not ask that question, they pretty much go straight to anger. Why is this? Probably because they know why we are laughing at them, they know their beliefs when they really think about them are silly, they know they have no good reason to believe it, so anger is the only response they can bring about to try to side step having to actually confront the idea that their beliefs are laughable. (probably fucked up that argument, just was trying to paraphrase one I had come across before, I'll link to it when I get out of work)
[–]7nights 10 points11 points12 points 10 months ago
Don't you take offense if she says your beliefs are wrong?
[–]coastermonger[S] 42 points43 points44 points 10 months ago
No,
My beliefs are hypotheses about this world which can be skeptically challenged and subject to scientific scrutiny. Fortunately I consider the available evidence before forming such opinions. Either that or I withhold judgement in the case of inadequate proof.
In the end we're all fallible, and these guesses about how the world works are really just tools to help us make predictions. And if our guesses happen to align with reality, all the better. If not, I'll gladly change my views. There's nothing to be offended about.
[–]7nights 8 points9 points10 points 10 months ago
There are also some Christians who don't take offense either.
[–]coastermonger[S] 23 points24 points25 points 10 months ago
I'm sure there are. (not sarcasm) but I'm definitely picking up a general trend here. Religious beliefs, no matter how much they tread on the grounds of scientific inquiry, tend to be touchy subjects. People who cling to them believe they are personally entitled to hold and exclaim them. I say absolutely, they are, but in the same breath they shouldn't be offended when the factual inaccuracies, inadequacies, and logical fallacies of these beliefs are brought to light. No one can expect to publicly divulge their ideology and expect it be protected from skepticism.
[–]7nights 7 points8 points9 points 10 months ago
Generally speaking, if you disprove what they have known their entire lives, expect them to be offended.
I dub it the 'santa isn't real' effect.
[–]coastermonger[S] 14 points15 points16 points 10 months ago*
Oh I believe you, I just think its ridiculous that people think they are inseparable from their ideas. They use these doctrines to define themselves, and when the dogma is brought into question they erroneously perceive it as a personal attack.
By comparison, you can imagine how many physicists got offended when it was suggested that neutrinos broke the speed of light
[–]I_R_Hopo 4 points5 points6 points 10 months ago
I can't help but think that any scientist who would become offended because new evidence might contradict something that is accepted as fact isn't really doing their job all that well.
[–]BowlingisnotNam 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
Devil's advocate (God's advocate?): Being christian is an identity to the believer. Maybe not in the same way that say, sexuality is, but its still an identity. The believer is caught up in the "fact" that they are part of some cosmic plan with souls, afterlife etc. The fact that the "identity" of a christian unravels at the point where their faith is post hoc doesn't mean that christianity isn't definitive of their values, beliefs, aspirations, world-view, lifestyle etc. People are their identities, as far as it describes them.
Atheist again: Don't just discount the discomfort people have when you discredit the foundation that they have built their identity on. Does sensitivity really matter to truth? No. But people aren't really being absurd when you challenge them like that. It isn't just as simple as beliefs=self.
Conclusion: Let them be offended, it may a really good way for them to see that their identity is untenable. But realize why they are.
[–]7nights -7 points-6 points-5 points 10 months ago
Quite a few, I imagine.
Btw, you might not have seen this but:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/nov/21/faster-than-light-neutrinos-doubts?newsfeed=true
[–]ryhntyntyn -1 points0 points1 point 10 months ago
if you disprove what they have known their entire lives
How would one do that?
[–]7nights -1 points0 points1 point 10 months ago
i dunno
[–]Semihomemade -1 points0 points1 point 10 months ago
I'm picking up a general trend here.
I'd say so general, it applies to most people about most things. Try to convince people that a "mother's wisdom" (I dunno what the saying is) doesn't work, ESPECIALLY if they have tried it with limited results. People will cut you if you tell them going out without a hat when it's cold won't make you weaker to colds, or that chicken noodle soup doesn't cure a cold, or that coffee doesn't sober you up if they think it does. Then, after attempting to cut you, they will attack you personally, or tell you why you are wrong with anecdotal evidence, or whatever.
I read some of your comments so it doesn't seem to apply to you, but people in general are very stubborn, religion (or even lack thereof) is just an aspect of that. I think if you take the lens off religion and focus it on political beliefs, or beliefs about medicine or whathaveyou, you'll find similar things. It's why people who say "in the end, we're all fallible, [if I'm wrong] I'll change my views, there's nothing to be offended about" so nonchalantly should be the ones in charge of the world, not stubborn pricks.
edit: by limited results, I mean with false positive feedback
[–]tha_ape 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
While true, all new theories must explain why the old theory worked but was still wrong. If you want to get world peace, you must unite science and religion, probably someone who has a mixture of physics and psychology will do this.
You have to show, through empirical evidence, that god doesnt exist and why (some) believe in one. This has to be done by showing what the chemicals in the brain do, similar to love. You cannot prove you love someone, its just a mixture of chemicals that tell you that you do.
Ok, I'll try and stop rambling. Never forget, many of the top scientists of all time were "believers". They just kept god out of their work. Someone needs to unite the two.
One last point. god - ( lowercase ) one of several deities, especially a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
While the man in the book may not be real, to deny that there is nothing in the universe superior to us is a bit narcissistic, is it not? There could very well be somehting that works on different scales (time, length, EM spectrum, etc) that we cannot detect, but that can do "things". Maybe not micro manage your day, but perhaps control the universe as a whole.
[–]inikul 6 points7 points8 points 10 months ago
Nope. But hypocrites make my blood fucking boil.
[–]Spletch 8 points9 points10 points 10 months ago
r/atheism people LOVE having their beliefs challenged. It's like the best part of the day for some people.
[–]colinsteadman 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
I get intrigued and somewhat excited. It could be an opportunity to learn something new, or gain a deeper understanding. Unless its some muppet who is going to vomit bullshit in my ear, thats just depressing.
[–]ButterThatBacon -1 points0 points1 point 10 months ago
I was about to say: sounds familiar. Here come the posts with lots of big words...
Not sure what you mean...
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
I don't believe anything. I make conclusions based on the best available evidence.
[–]lollerkeet 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
You believe that is the best method?
[–]CaptainAbrecan 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
I can't speak for cynicalone, but I believe that is the best method.
Some atheists are starting to sound like religious people.
[–]lollerkeet 18 points19 points20 points 10 months ago
Many atheists used to be religious people. It does take a few years to stop thinking that way.
[–]shakamalaka -1 points0 points1 point 10 months ago
Many atheists used to be religious people.
...and that's the problem with r/atheism right there.
I've noticed a ton of people on here acting no differently from religious zealots... they're just on the other side of the argument. It's like they switched 'religions' and are using the same tactics to bully people into atheism as they did to bully people into Christianity (or whatever religion).
I was raised atheist. I don't give a shit what other people believe. I find the loudest people on here tend to be the most recently converted, because they feel they have something to prove. When was the last time you saw someone who was atheist since childhood flip out on someone for their beliefs? It doesn't happen nearly as much.
Question.. why don't you give a shit what other people believe? Do you not think that other people's beliefs effect you ?
And I take issue with even comparing the most vocal atheists with the religious zealots. Not because I am of that group, but because .. preaching reason, logic, and rationality is a positive thing and can be shown to have a foundation in reality and can be shown to be the best means to acquire truth. Preaching religious dogma on the other hand, is the exact opposite, it is insisting that despite their being no good reason to accept their claims as true, everyone should do it anyways. The two are not nearly the same thing, regardless of how much either one bothers you, they aren't equal. The loudest people here may very well be the most recently converted, but the "something to prove line" is.. well.. hard for me to accept.I find it more likely that they are the loudest because they finally are allowed to vent about these things, after how ever long they were trapped in a religion, of course when they escape they are going to likely be vocal about their experience and new found views on the world, what is wrong with that?
ANd I just had to laugh at " using the same tactics to bully people" yes ok... because atheists are going around telling people they will be tortured forever if they don't repent and accept reason. Seriously man, what the fuck are you talking about ?
Do you not think that other people's beliefs effect you ?
That's right. Other people's beliefs have no impact on me whatsoever, because their beliefs are none of my business, just like my (lack of) beliefs are none of theirs.
If you can just recognize that religion is a personal thing and it's none of anyone else's business, you can get along just fine with people who have different beliefs and you don't have to yell at each other all the time.
For some reason, Americans haven't figured that shit out yet, even though almost every other First World country has, which is why you guys (I'm assuming you're American) still have religion as a major issue in the US and feel the need to scream at each other about it all the time.
preaching reason, logic, and rationality is a positive thing and can be shown to have a foundation in reality and can be shown to be the best means to acquire truth.
Why do you need to preach anything to people? Again, it's none of your business. If someone comes up to you and says, 'hey, you're an atheist, can you tell me a little bit about why you don't believe?"... then by all means go on and deliver your message, but otherwise, keep it to yourself.
That goes for anyone with a political or religious agenda. I don't want someone preaching to me about which god to believe in, which candidate to vote for, or anything like that. Write down your information and leave it in a pamphlet or on the Internet. If I'm interested in finding out more, I'll check it for myself.
Frankly, the minute someone starts trying to sway my opinion on any issue, uninvited, is the minute I actively start defending the other side, just because the person is being a dick (even if I agree with their position) and they deserve to be fucked with.
The two are not nearly the same thing, regardless of how much either one bothers you, they aren't equal.
Sure they are. It's someone trying to force a viewpoint onto someone else. That's always bad in my books. Doesn't matter what the viewpoint is. When you become basically a walking sales pitch for your point of view, you're an asshole, plain and simple.
The loudest people here may very well be the most recently converted, but the "something to prove line" is.. well.. hard for me to accept.I find it more likely that they are the loudest because they finally are allowed to vent about these things, after how ever long they were trapped in a religion, of course when they escape they are going to likely be vocal about their experience and new found views on the world, what is wrong with that?
This is a little comparison I like to use: I've never eaten meat. Not ever. I was raised vegetarian, and I'm also lactose intolerant, so I have an essentially vegan diet.
As someone who has never eaten meat and has been surrounded, most of my life, by friends, classmates, co-workers and extended family who do eat meat, seeing other people do so doesn't bother me. It's a non-issue. My wife grew up on a farm. She eats meat. That certainly wasn't a deal-breaker for me, because even though I, personally, am morally opposed to it, that's just me, personally.
My set of individual morals does not apply to other people, and I can acknowledge that they're at least partially a product of my ubringing. My wife, for example, was raised in an environment where slaughtering animals for meat was part of the way her family earned a living, so she has a different perspective. I can absolutely respect that. Neither dietary choice is universally right or wrong... our individual choices are right for us as individuals. I feel the same way about religion.
...and here's where we come back around to your point quoted above. There are few people that piss me off more than vocal animal-rights/PETA-type assholes. They infuriate the hell out of me. In my experience, the loudest, most vocal of these types are people who have just recently become vegetarian or vegan. I'm talking about the type of jerk who will see someone eating a hamburger and making a big scene about how disgusting it is and trying to shame the person into stopping.
Basically, a total scumbag waste of humanity who thinks he/she is right and everyone else is wrong. The type of person you don't want to hang out with. I would say in 90% of the cases I've seen this happen (and I've seen it happen a lot... when I was in high school a lot of wannabe vegetarians looked to me for suggestions of what kind of good veggie food is out there), the person making a big scene is a new convert.
I, on the other hand, have been a vegetarian my entire life, and I don't give a shit what other people eat. I'd rather my friends and loved ones ate healthy food so they'll be around longer, but if they want to eat meat, my own moral opposition to it shouldn't affect them. If someone is enforcing their own morals on other people like that -- even though I agree 100% that eating meat is wrong (for me) -- I tend to take the side of the meat-eaters and call the zealot on his or her shit.
A friend of mine recently started eating meat again after seven or eight years as a vegetarian. A lot of people made fun of him for that. I didn't. I told him that if he felt eating meat was right for him, healthwise, he was making the right choice.
Do you see how this applies to religion? How many times have you encountered 'born-again' assholes who are waaaay over the top in their proselytizing? Compare those to people who have gone to church all their lives and keep it to themselves. The 'new' religious people want everyone to know about it and want to show off their new, religious self, while the real believers don't need to tell anyone about it.
ANd I just had to laugh at " using the same tactics to bully people" yes ok... because atheists are going around telling people they will be tortured forever if they don't repent and accept reason.
I don't understand why this bothers you. If someone told me I was going to hell (which has never happened, by the way, in almost 30 years of being an atheist), I would smile and say "OK". I know there's no hell, so why would I have a problem? They might as well be damning me to Oz or Wonderland. It's fictional. It doesn't bug me one iota. How could it?
Well.. not sure where to start here. Firstly, your point about religion being personal.. would be true.. except for the fact that those with a religion are constantly forcing it onto everyone else through legislation at every level of the government. Why can't you buy alcohol on sunday in some states? Why can't gays get married in most states? Why can't women freely get an abortion without being harassed in some states ? Why in some states are they trying to get creationism into the science classroom and prayer back into the schools? Because of people's "personal religious beliefs", which apparently aren't really that personal.
I mean seriously are you subscribing to the notion that everyone should just believe whatever the fuck they want, that all opinions are equal?
Why do I need to preach anything ? Well because thousands of people in this country have been indoctrinated as children to believe in something that there is no good reason to believe in. These people are holding back social and scientific progress based on those beliefs, those beliefs that they only hold because they were told it is the truth when they were children. Why do I care ? Because I want the world to actually improve, I want all the hate between the religions to go away, I want all the lazy thinkers to get a little less lazy and actually use some critical thinking skills, I want the world to be a better place than it was before when I die. I want children to grow up not afraid of hell, but to be excited for life, to be allowed to be curious, to be allowed to search for the truth regardless if it goes against some bronze age books. And also because... reason, logic, and more specifically the scientific method has proven itself to be the best way to find truth, the best way to sort between fact and fiction, that is why I am vocal, I don't want another generation of people wasting their lives to get into heaven, all the while being told they are filthy sinners. I want ignorance to be defeated by knowledge and curiosity.
The bottom line is.. beliefs inform your actions. If you believe something, it is almost undeniably going to influence your actions. Which is why the idea of just "keeping your beliefs to yourself" doesn't work, its impossible, well its very very hard to separate the two. Which is why less than 40 percent of the us population accepts evolution, their beliefs inform their actions, which lead them to deny the science.
"That goes for anyone with a political or religious agenda. I don't want someone preaching to me about which god to believe in, which candidate to vote for, or anything like that. Write down your information and leave it in a pamphlet or on the Internet. If I'm interested in finding out more, I'll check it for myself."
I mean.. it seems to me like you are saying that we shouldn't discuss anything with anyone and just keep everything to yourself.Which is a sure fire way for nothing to ever get done that is progressive at all.Again, brings me to my point.. a lot of religous people.. the majority, were indoctrinated from childhood, they are never EVER going to seek out information for themselves that might contradict their faith, they have been taught to do that, so by you saying we shouldn't mention it to them.. it is essentially dooming them to the same fate their parents had and their parents before them, there is no breaking the cycle because they will not seek out the information (not true of all, but definitely many). It seems you havn't been exposed to that sort of religiousness or something, I don't know but you claim that you have never had someone tell you that you were going to hell for not believing? I just find that odd, surely you've had one conversation with a religious person about why they believe right ?
And just because I don't believe in hell, doesn't mean I don't see the issue with a christian telling me I am going to burn in hell, it doesn't mean I appreciate the idea that Christians love that we are all dirty sinners and all flawed human beings in need of salvation from jesus. Am I offended by that? No, but I understand that what they are really saying is "fuck you", so yes.. just because I don't believe in it, doesn't mean they don't believe in what they say.
There are all sorts of people in this world, and clearly me and you are vastly different despite being similar in regards to accepting claims based on faith. And that's perfectly ok, but it doesn't mean that you have a "better" way of going about it, it just means that we view things differently, I actually want to impact the world in a positive way, and I think fighting against religion is a worthy cause worth cracking a few eggs for. I see all the problems religion causes in this country and.. I can't just let everyone believe as they choose, because they are effecting my life with their beliefs. Look at the fucking assholes the religious right puts into power in politics, its disgusting, and.. its all based on religion that these people keep getting elected. They have their very religious base that they pander to and they get them all worked up over homosexuals, abortion, and a war on christmas and then they have their votes, and they get reelected. I mean, I don't know what part of this country you live in, but it seems to be very secluded from the rest of the country and its religious zeal.
Firstly, your point about religion being personal.. would be true.. except for the fact that those with a religion are constantly forcing it onto everyone else through legislation at every level of the government.
That's a very America-specific worldview, which is pretty common on r/atheism. I'm not surprised.
Why can't you buy alcohol on sunday in some states? Why can't gays get married in most states? Why can't women freely get an abortion without being harassed in some states ? Why in some states are they trying to get creationism into the science classroom and prayer back into the schools? Because of people's "personal religious beliefs", which apparently aren't really that personal.
None of these things happen here. Gay marriage is legal, abortion is pretty much a non-issue aside from small pockets of ineffective protesters, there's no creationism in public schools, etc. etc.
As for the alcohol thing, I see that crop up on r/atheism all the time and it confuses the hell out of me. A lot of places have shorter shopping hours on Sundays. It may have originally been because people were going to church that day or whatever, but now it's just a standard thing that happens. I don't know a single person -- and keep in mind that almost everyone I know is an atheist -- who is offended by this.
If they need booze that badly, they buy it the day before or, you know, wait until noon when the LC is open. Americans shouldn't be complaining about liquor laws. I've heard you guys can buy alcohol from convenience stores and even gas stations. We can't do that here. We have to go to special Liquor Commission stores and designated Beer Vendors.
Sure, why not? I don't have to agree with all opinions, but letting everyone express themselves freely, whatever they believe, is kind of the point of the whole 'freedom of speech' thing.
Why do I need to preach anything ? Well because thousands of people in this country have been indoctrinated as children to believe in something that there is no good reason to believe in.
Who are you to assume you know better than those children's parents? I'm an atheist and a father. If some Christian decided he knew better than me and that my children had been 'indoctrinated' into not believing in a god, and tried to convert them, I would be fucking furious. Religious parents don't have some evil plan to warp their children's fragile little minds... they believe in it themselves, and they're sharing a belief system that has worked for them with their children.
One would assume the children, once they're older, will be able to decide for themselves what they feel about religion. You're not giving the kids enough credit. After all, most of the Americans on r/atheism are former Christians, right? Did they get 'de-converted' because some atheist started yelling about how their parents were evil? Of course not.
I don't want another generation of people wasting their lives to get into heaven, all the while being told they are filthy sinners. I want ignorance to be defeated by knowledge and curiosity.
That's not necessarily going to be the case, though. More and more young people are turning their backs on religion. America's a little behind most other countries, but I'm sure the trend is the same there. And besides, in most cases, religious belief is not some horrible thing where they're trying to violate people's rights and shit. There's a small, vocal percentage of Christians even in America who are so aggressive about it. Most of them just go to church or pray or whatever but are otherwise perfectly fine, decent people.
If having a relationship with what you and I consider to be a fictional character helps them in their lives, it's not up to us (or to anyone) to convince them that character doesn't exist. Why would you want to do that to someone? If it makes them happy and isn't hurting anyone, leave them be.
I mean.. it seems to me like you are saying that we shouldn't discuss anything with anyone and just keep everything to yourself.Which is a sure fire way for nothing to ever get done that is progressive at all.
Not exactly. Discussing is great. Getting aggressive about it is counterproductive. Think about it this way -- I live in Canada, and in my country, as well as a number of countries in Europe, religion really isn't a big issue. People are religious, sure, but very few of them are trying to convert anyone, and for the most part, young people in general are either atheist, agnostic, or 'religious in name only' (i.e. they go to church with family on religious holidays but otherwise don't believe and are open about it).
How do you think that was accomplished? Was it by atheists banding together and destroying all religious thought? Was it by screaming at each other 24/7? No. People just accepted that we don't all have to agree, and that religion isn't important enough to hate each other over. America hasn't figured out yet that just being nice and tolerant is far more effective than raging at each other.
Obviously this country (and others like it) isn't perfect, but the fact that we have an evangelical Christian as our Prime Minister and gay marriage and abortion are both legal and accepted (and that's never going to change), is an example of just how irrelevant religion has become in matters of state. And that's the way it should be.
I don't know but you claim that you have never had someone tell you that you were going to hell for not believing? I just find that odd, surely you've had one conversation with a religious person about why they believe right ?
Sure, I've had those conversations. I barely know any religious people at all, but that has come up, and in absolutely zero of those conversations has anyone mentioned hell. It's usually that they are religious because of cultural/family reasons, or they like the idea of a deity watching over them or whatever. Never fear of hell, though. I thought that idea died out in the Middle Ages.
Am I offended by that? No, but I understand that what they are really saying is "fuck you", so yes.. just because I don't believe in it, doesn't mean they don't believe in what they say.
Are they saying that? To me, any religious person trying to sway me to his or her way of thinking is actually trying, in their own misguided way, to help me. It's a little annoying, but I'm not offended. They think they're doing the right thing.
I mean, I don't know what part of this country you live in, but it seems to be very secluded from the rest of the country and its religious zeal.
I don't live in your country, assuming you're an American. I live in Canada.
[–]HighDagger 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Could you clarify which side you mean? The ones defending religion from preachy atheists or the ones preaching atheism?
[–]Prathik 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
I think the ones preaching atheism. edit: but it is in the right place though, so its to be expected.
[–][deleted] 10 months ago
[deleted]
[–]Lachlan91 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
Sure, atheism is a lack of belief. However, humanism and other similar beliefs/ethics are closely related. I'd wager a lot of atheists could be described as humanists and vice versa. I'd guess that a lot of people who have a problem with atheism also have a problem with humanism, namely the idea that we can self determine ethics and morality through reason, and not relying on a higher power to spell it out for us.
Plus it flows a bit better to say it the way its written rather than "lack of belief", if only to save typing a word or two.
[–]Mitch0422 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
all i have to say is god is a flying spaghetti monster . prove me wrong
[–]RageOverflows 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
and visa versa I guess..
[–]mintmarshall 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
atheism by definition is an omission of belief
[–]iamthewalrus00 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Atheism isn't a belief, it's a lack of.
[–]bsage88 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Lol...how can religious people say your beliefs are wrong when you don't believe in anything?
[–]Cleppy -5 points-4 points-3 points 10 months ago
r/atheism: blind to its own sophomoric hypocrisy since FOR FUCKING EVER
just a tip, most of you guys are so obsessed with atheism that you embody the very characteristics which you so deeply despise in religious folk.
[–]huxtiblejones 6 points7 points8 points 10 months ago
What? This image is saying that it's absurd for religious people to simultaneously complain about atheists picking apart their beliefs while they pick apart your beliefs. If it offends you to have beliefs questioned, then why would you do it to others? There is nothing hypocritical about that on the side of atheists, most of us are not offended by the idea of questioning beliefs (what with that being our MO and all).
[–]gorange 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Do you question your beliefs as an atheists? Most atheists on /r/atheism are PRETTY dogmatic about atheism...
[–]SwagMcdaddy -6 points-5 points-4 points 10 months ago
But if a religious person tells you that you should follow their religion you will turn around and tell them how they are wrong and then you use science to back up your opinions. Scientific theories that could be turned on their ear tomorrow (by new scientific breakthroughs or by some random religious figure turning up out of nowhere*)
atheists seem to rush to explain why peoples' beliefs are wrong, trying to shove peoples' noses in science like grade school bullies and then turn around and talk shit on people who try to do the same thing with their faith, neither realizing that they're on two different ends of the same line. Who cares who is right when you can share ideas of any kinds with your neighbors? Who cares what someone believes if they're not stepping on your toes?
*I'm not here to debate the plausibility of this, I'm just using it as an example
[–]Shampyon 4 points5 points6 points 10 months ago*
But if a religious person tells you that you should follow their religion you will turn around and tell them how they are wrong and then you use science to back up your opinions.
Yes. We reply. Not get offended and claim they shouldn't bring it up because it offends us.
Scientific theories that could be turned on their ear tomorrow
Could be, but are unlikely to be. The more likely event would be a refinement of what is known. Just as Einstein didn't overturn Newton. Just as quantum physics hasn't overturned the standard model.
Even so, it is better to hold a provisional belief than pretend you have an unquestionable truth that will be accurate forever. When you do that, you end up having to ignore reality to suit your faith. Little good comes of that.
atheists seem to rush to explain why peoples' beliefs are wrong, trying to shove peoples' noses in science like grade school bullies
That's a pretty poor analogy. What grade school bully forces kids to learn science? Besides, responding to a claim is not the same as forcing it on people. Neither is discussing these matters on a forum dedicated to such things. (edit) Nor is having discussion on any other forum. If someone is willing to voice their opinion, they should accept that others will voice theirs.
Who cares what someone believes if they're not stepping on your toes?
This question implies that other people's religious beliefs don't have an effect on our lives, our society, or the world we live in. Can you honestly say that the practise of these beliefs has no effect on the world?
Pretty much, and I'm an atheist -- I'm just not mad about it ;)
[–]Funktapus -9 points-8 points-7 points 10 months ago
They just don't get it. Why fight aggressive religious rhetoric (Yes, atheism is religious rhetoric, its got the word 'theism' in) with aggressive religious rhetoric? They are acting like the same bigots, martyrs and blind dogmatic followers that they feel so superior to.
r/atheists, get away from the groupthink that is this website. Its for your own good.
[–]passwordisBLU 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
Theism isn't a religion...
[–]Funktapus -2 points-1 points0 points 10 months ago
Because semantics
You said "it's got the word 'theism' in it" as if that backs up anything you say. Stop using "religious" if you can't use it right.
Atheism addresses the question of god's existence. What god? As long as were generalizing, as is hotly the case in this subreddit, that god is the god of a religion (there's a reason the bible comes up so often). Atheism is an answer to a religious question. Atheists concern themselves with religion.
Let me put it a different way. You may think Satan worship is stupid and self-defeating. Why worship the antithesis of a single religion, that's saying Star Wars sucks and you like the Emperor? Atheism is no different. Its like saying Star Wars sucks and Jedis are full of shit.
MY advice: Stop going on Star Wars forums, stop lending credibility to religious (theistic, whatever) thought by answering their absurd questions, stop calling yourself atheists.
[–]passwordisBLU 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
You are saying it's rhetoric in response to religious questions. That's different from "religious rhetoric". As for your analogy, it's pretty unclear what you're trying to say or if it even has a point. And I'm not sure you're using "worship" as it's meant to be used.
I'm not sure ignoring theists is going to solve anything.
[–]Funktapus 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
My intention was never to 'solve' anything. I simply try to understand.
You know who tries to 'solve' everyone's problems? Catholics.
Well it sure seems that way when you tell me to stop calling myself an atheist.
[–]keke_kekobe -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 months ago
NUH UH YOU'RE WRONG!!
DOWNVOOOOOOTE
[–]rcc01a 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Amen brother.
[–]musiclover55 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Scumbag Stevie.
[–]patt1s 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
I hate fake colored contacts.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago*
Sort of relevant. Downvote if you like but join in the conversation please.
[–]transfusion -2 points-1 points0 points 10 months ago
Damn, this hit close to home.
[–]r0wo1 -2 points-1 points0 points 10 months ago
Fuck it, as if there aren't just as many Athiests who do the same thing.
[–]r0wo1 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Lol yeah downvote the comment. It's the same shit as what I read on here every day about Christians who don't like being told to their faces that they aren't right about everything.
[–]I_TAKE_HATS -1 points0 points1 point 10 months ago
How would they react if God comes back and tells them their beliefs are wrong too? /blowsmind
[–]8906 6 points7 points8 points 10 months ago
They'd find a way to kill him for his blasphemy.
You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.
[–]Supreme333 -1 points0 points1 point 10 months ago
Why are you telling her that her beliefs are wrong....let people believe whatever they want and just leave it alone im so sick of this shit
[–]blakemesa -1 points0 points1 point 10 months ago
Is there any kind of branch or sister/belief system similar to aetheism that doesn't feel the urge to show everyone that religious people are in the wrong in any way? no sarcasm intended i just reallly want to know if there is one
[–]Frywad32 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
Agnostics? You don't hear much from them.
[–]blakemesa 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
please tell me more. im at that age where im starting to be able to make my own decisions and this is a very important subject for me. im all ears
Not real sure beyond the fact that they are open to belief that a god may exist, but remain untied to conventional religions. In other words no fucks are given
[–]blakemesa 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
thanks.
[–]Vandal22 -1 points0 points1 point 10 months ago
I don't think what Atheist believe is WRONG, I just think they're WRONG for shitting on what I believe. And THERE in lies our differences. In my beliefs, I learn from the teachings of loving each other and NOT being a prick against what YOU believe. In your beliefs, you feel obligated to take scripture out of context and bash me for what I believe. Sounds to me like one of these beliefs is a lot nicer world to live in than the other.
[–]pickitnow -2 points-1 points0 points 10 months ago
Usually an attractive girl, and thus a lost opportunity
[–]eloquentnemesis -2 points-1 points0 points 10 months ago
never a lost opportunity. just say god told you she needs to give you a blow job. if successful, you may have a future as a cult leader.
[–]coastermonger[S] 7 points8 points9 points 10 months ago
Hardly offended, just facepalmed at the stifled opportunity to even approach the subject like normal human beings. Sometimes it can be fun to talk about what we believe in and what our justifications are, it's how we make sense of this world. But when one party retreats because they are offended by the very idea of your ideas, sad day.
[–]guitarism101 -2 points-1 points0 points 10 months ago
Scumbag hot girl?
[–]tanhan27 -6 points-5 points-4 points 10 months ago
Comment from a Christian: You can say my beliefs are wrong, just don't try to take away my right to practice my religion. Some Atheists are out to do this (i.e. Richard Dawkins campaigning to rid Britain of religious schooling on the grounds that he considers religious indoctrination as child abuse) <-- go ahead and downvote if you are an atheist drone
[–]Lachlan91 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
What you choose to believe or do, as an adult capable of legally consenting, and hopefully fully aware of any consequences, is your choice. I will respect that as long it remains your choice and it does not impede on the freedom for others to choose.
But frankly, religious schooling, particularly religious schooling that does not provide a balanced, broad spectrum view of all religions, is not fair on any child and should not exist in any educational system. Children should not be made to participate in any religious practice - they can do so when they are capable of legally consenting to do so.
Religious indoctrination is child abuse, and removing it does not prevent you from observing your religious practices, so I don't see why it should concern you.
[–]napoleonsolo 3 points4 points5 points 10 months ago
Richard Dawkins does not want to take away your right to practice your religion.
[–]Giant_Badonkadonk 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Not that I agree or disagree with this particular view from Dawkins but you seem to misunderstand what his view is. He doesn't want to stop all religios teachings, he just doesn't like labeling a child a "Christian" or "Muslim" before they have a chance to choose what they want to believe. He doesn't like the idea that children are born into a certain religion, instead he wants to teach them all ways of thought and if they want to believe a certain religion that is fine.
[–]ConanTroutman0 -1 points0 points1 point 10 months ago
"Against."
[–]Firekracker -1 points0 points1 point 10 months ago
As I saw the thumbnail I was going WTF is that a German imperial flag in the bottom left corner :D
Why are we atheists so damned sensitive? Shouldn't we grow some balls, stop worrying about what Christians think, and get on with the task of building a beautiful post-theistic world? Shouldn't we be spending our time setting a good example for what the world can look like instead of constantly whining about Christians? Who cares what Christians think? Why would anyone possibly care? Leave them to their beliefs and let's get on with it.
tldr: We need to stop complaining, put Christians behind us, and get on with the task of building a positive post-theistic world.
The only thing atheism is "up against" is our own tendency to whine constantly about what Christians think. We're like teams who complain about the referee: perhaps you have a point, but it isn't going to help you win the game. Win the game that's being played, not the game you wish was being played.
[–]purpleddit -5 points-4 points-3 points 10 months ago
I'm a new visitor to Atheism. Apparently atheists still buy into the judeochristian shit role for females. Sexist much?
[–]coastermonger[S] 4 points5 points6 points 10 months ago
If you're under the impression that a few religions out there grant equal rights to women in their teachings, you'd be correct. If you're under the impression that all religions out there still equal rights to women, you'd be sadly mistaken.
[–]purpleddit 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
My comment stated that religion has a crap role for women ("judeochristian shit role"), I already acknowledged that.
It's just that, as an atheist myself, I like to believe that atheists tend to be humanists - and thus respect ALL people. That's why I found the sexism upsetting.
[–]lollerkeet 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago*
How is it sexist?
EDIT: it
General statement "this is what atheism is up against" with specific photo of a dumb girl making a dumb argument - as if it is a female who best epitomizes a person who would make a crap argument - and it means that she is only one dumb girl making dumb arguments among many others.
I guess I just don't see the point of having a young, good-looking girl saying that - the stereotypical "dumb" person as portrayed everywhere by our media and populace. We have enough of that in our society already. No reason to actively further it.
[–]lollerkeet 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
So if it were a male pictured, it wouldn't be sexist?
Look, a specific image isn't sexist by itself - but no conversation occurs in a vacuum. Given the stereotype of the young, dumb, pretty girl - why feed into it yet again? I also feel like the OP is utilizing the stereotype to make the scenario extra groan-worthy. Not ONLY is there a dumb argument - it's ALSO made by a dumb girl. Two aspects that people are supposed to find frustrating, whether consciously or not.
[–]NyQuil012 -2 points-1 points0 points 10 months ago
HEY! HEY! *HEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!! LOOK AT MY ATHEIST PENIS! WOOOOO!
[–][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 10 months ago
It's amazing how church like atheism has become. You have atheist fundamentalists, evangelicals, belief systems like science and the "circle of life".
Atheism is like a religion as this topic implies.
When atheism should be about nothing. And please explain why the absence of something bothers you so?
[–]coastermonger[S] 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUI_ML1qkQE
[–]iknowadude -8 points-7 points-6 points 10 months ago*
christianity is not real. you knowing the truth about this universe(s) is not real either.
edit: by the number of downvotes, it appears that christianity is real
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
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